Junior Witter - Unlucky ?? or Overachiever ??

Missd out on huge money againsy Hatton..............

Unlucky to face the unheralded Bradley

Shockingly quit against Alexander.........

Seemed to have talent but let himself down........

Was he just your Ingle-Style over substance type !.......Or should he have achieved more..........Had some great moves !!

I had the Alexander fight closer then the shutout cards at the time of the retirement, am sure it was some sort of injury.

I just think he ha a horrible style that no wanted to face unless forced to. If he was in his prime now and was under Fast Car Eddie as his promoter with his fabled eliminators, am sure he would have been much more highly thought of. I think he was poorly promoted.

Interesting question Truss - Would it be a cop-out to say both?
Absolutely should have had a fight against Hatton and i think it was a travesty that this big domestic clash never occured (both with the same promoter at the time so real excuse really). I always felt Jnr wanted and needed the fight more (and at the time would have won).

I also thought he was very talented, but maybe the work ethic and work rate in fights was lacking and he would do stupid moves in fights, like the switch hitting and weird stances which at times he couldnt really pull off, and becasue of this under-achieved.
The fight v Bradley i remember as a very good fight and also a close(ish) fight against a guy who has gone on to do great things.

Weighing it up i would have to say underachiever more than unlucky really.

Sorry didnt even read the article properly -    

i have him in higher regard than Truss as i thought he had a great deal of potential which i dont think he totally fulfilled. i dont think he 'overachieved'.

I never said I didn't rate him Mate..........

Just not sure how good he was ?........Is more the problem.

SugarWarrior wrote:Interesting question Truss - Would it be a cop-out to say both?
Absolutely should have had a fight against Hatton and i think it was a travesty that this big domestic clash never occured (both with the same promoter at the time so real excuse really). I always felt Jnr wanted and needed the fight more (and at the time would have won).

I also thought he was very talented, but maybe the work ethic and work rate in fights was lacking and he would do stupid moves in fights, like the switch hitting and weird stances which at times he couldnt really pull off, and becasue of this under-achieved.
The fight v Bradley i remember as a very good fight and also a close(ish) fight against a guy who has gone on to do great things.

Weighing it up i would have to say underachiever more than unlucky really.

I agree the Bradley fight was close, if I remember correctly I had it 7 rounds to 5 in favor of Bradley including a knockdown (115-112) but condsidering the fighter he has become, doesnt look that bad now. I think he underestimated Bradley.

Is a tricky one with Witter, as in many respects he was the architect of many of his own problems. As most will know I am a firm believer Hatton should have accommodated Junior, there was a period Witter was the clear divisional number 2 and clearly was desperate for the fight, given it could have been made quite easily Hatton should have dealt with the challenge.

However Junior frequently did himself no favours, seemed whenever there was a groundswell of popular opinion for him to be given his chance he would absolutely stink the joint out, making him easier to ignore. Pity really because as he showed in the Vivian Harris fight he could look good when he was willing to engage.

Think like a lot of Ingle fighters he needed the right kind of opponent to make him look good and am not sure he was absolutely top tier but think there was a reasonable window where the Hatton fight would have been pretty close, as Junior could pick a decent shot and had a dig on him and against a guy who is going to be right in front of you and takes a few shots you never know.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:I never said I didn't rate him Mate..........

Just not sure how good he was ?........Is more the problem.

He could be incredibly frustrating to watch, especially when he would stand in the middle of the ring with hand in the air and refuse to throw a punch.
For me I just felt he lacked a killer instinct and didnt have that mentality an elite fighter has (hard to put a finger on or describe).

He was a riddle wrapped up in a mystery inside an enigma.

I think he clearly had talent, at times against Harris and early on against n'dou he looked sublime. However, he was his own worst enemy in the ring, sometimes his switch hitting confused himself more than his opponent. Had serious stamina problems too. He talked the talk but I'm not sure about his confidence either... the Judah fight came too soon for him, but he did leg it.

I had the Bradley fight much wider than the official cards, he was well beaten, but Bradley has gone on to to prove no shame in that. I recall after that fight being laughed at on the old 606 for saying Bradley looked a good fighter and would give hatton a real good fight. I wonder how that potential fight would be viewed now?

Some would say that witter's attitude was an issue outside the ring too... His goading of hatton etc, but hatton had a new excuse every week for not fighting him. I don't think Ricky was scared of him, just that he was a risky opponent that could have derailed hatton's plans before he became champion, and there were easier money fights for hatton once he did become champion. There was plenty of opportunity for it to happen over the course of their careers and a bit of a stain on hatton that it didnt. In witter's prime it would be a good fight, but he would have to get Ricky out of their earlyish to win in my view.

In short I'm kind of with truss... Not sure how good he was or could have been!

I remember watching the Bradley fight and realising just how frustrating Witter could be. To me he appeared particularly lazy in the fight and did not give Bradley the respect he deserved. The right man won.

Witter was indeed hugely talented. He could have won the Judah fight if he'd had more time to prepare and I believe (had they fought) that he would've given Hatton a good fight and might have beaten him - his style was all wrong for Ricky and I think Hatton's people knew that.

On his day he could box rings round good fighters before knocking them out. However, he was so frustrating because he never really brought the "A" game we knew he had.

Very gifted but bland fighter and with hindsight the Bradley performance deserves a bit more respect now, however i always struggled to watch him never seemed to want to move up a gear and bring some electricity into his fights. If he had the right mentality may have been better than Hatton. He had all the skills, handspeed, solid chin, movement and reasonable power to make him special, but for some reason just lacked something that separates the good from great British fighters.

I always thought Witter wasn't overly likeable, I never had an issue with him myself. Hatton's ability to grab the limelight left Witter in the shade.

Rowley will recall back in the old days we were a definite minority among the blue moon hatton fans, but I think the consensus here is about right... The physical tools but probably not the mental ones.

He did go on a long run of early knock outs after the Judah fight, but could never shake the 'stinker' label and to be fair he did live up to it on a fair few occasions.

Was sad to see him shot to pieces on prizefighter.

Always felt that whilst Witter had the style to make things awkward for Hatton, if they'd ever fought, Witter would do what he always seemed to do on the big occasions and produce an absolute stinker.

The biggest night of his life was against Corley and I've never been as underwhelmed by anyone in my life. people talk about the fight against Harris. I recall it being on TV and them saying that they were joining the fight part way through AFTER Witter had scored a KD. What I watched was the dullest most uninspiring drivel since Johnny Nelson and therefore by the time he fought Bradley I'm almost ashamed to say I was rooting for Tim to beat a fellow Bradfordian....I did say almost ashamed!

As Rowley said, every time Witter had a claim to face Hatton he would then stink himself out of a match-up and it became easy to side-step him but I believe that had he got the chance he'd have been smacked around the chops and retreated into his shell much like Malignaggi did.

Saved us all a lot of time really.

milkyboy wrote:Rowley will recall back in the old days we were a definite minority among the blue moon hatton fans,

Now that was a debate with the ability to make the Floyd debates look civilised, do you remember Gooner, not particularly to my credit but remember me and Marv going at it for about two weeks solid with him.

True Dave, and we got to see Ricky in all those great fights against the lucky and the infirm instead before cashing in his chips at the bank of mayweather.

Overachiever. Lost to the best he fought, dozens of "who?" names on his record. Bizarrely I just noticed he won the WBU Light Middleweight title at one point in his career

Avergage fighter who managed to overachieve

Would have gotten KTFO by Hatton

I feel Whitter focused far to long on getting a fight with Hatton rather than cementing his own legacy and doing this may have forced Hattons hand.
Whitter alway's came over to me as a fighter who liked dishing it out but wasn't happy getting hit himself,hence defensive and boring at times.

Was having breakfast in hotel in Manchester  after the Hatton Tszui fight and asked a cornerman about Whitter, his a nice kid but he couldn't sell a phone box out is what he said.

I went on to ask him why Hatton wouldn't give him the fight,he replied Hatton would sell it out but wont give Whitter a big pay day,after all the slagging off, no love loss between them,but Whitters not a bad lad.

Hatton has more or less alway's said the same thing.

Always felt the whole line about Witter not being able to sell out a phone box was largely irrelevant in the whole debate. When you have a guy who can shift 50,000 tickets against Lazcano how many tickets his opponent can shift matters not a jot.

If Witter had a personality transplant it would have helped his career a bit

Nico makes a good point about Witter's lack of appeal.......

Must however also say plenty at the time fancied Witter to give Hatton nigthmares..

Ah speaking of people who need personality transplants...hows it going Truss?

Looking forward to watching KOVO this weekend.....

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looking forward to watching KOVO this weekend.....

The guy is an awesome fighter. I was fortuate enough to see him box in August. Am also waiting to hear whether I have a ticket for the Cardiff City v Arsenal match tomorrow. Not many people giving us a chance. I think we could suprise them though like when we beat Manchester City at home...

The fight would have made money and hatton had plenty of less live opponents on his record than witter, even when champion. Ricky had a different excuse every time for not taking the fight. I can well believe the payday one is the real one, but real 'warriors' who are getting called out by legitimate challengers take them up on it to shut their mouth, rather than cherry pick their way through the weakest champions they can find. Which, make no mistake, is what happend.

Nothing wrong with having a well managed career building up to massive paydays, but this is why I turned against hatton. Listening to his 'fight anyone' spiel, while banking gimme fights.

Steffan wrote:

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Looking forward to watching KOVO this weekend.....

The guy is an awesome fighter. I was fortuate enough to see him box in August. Am also waiting to hear whether I have a ticket for the Cardiff City v Arsenal match tomorrow. Not many people giving us a chance. I think we could suprise them though like when we beat Manchester City at home...

Did you feel fortunate at the time?

Knew deep down he was only fringe world class, so picks on lower level world class Hatton(not my words,) as opposed to Cotto, because he knew he wasn't good enough for one of the top boys, as the Bradley fight proved.


Wouldn't have got the Hatton fight even if he had beaten Bradley.


Hatton rates a lot higher than Witter in historical British terms, but if they'd boxed, I think Witter has a shout. Then Hatton wouldn't have got to the Pacquaio pot of gold.



Or............



Hatton didn't want to give him a payday because Witter was disrespectful and Hatton knew deep down Witter wasn't very good even though sylistically could have been his bogeyman, but knew he only had to bide his time.

milkyboy wrote:True Dave, and we got to see Ricky in all those great fights against the lucky and the infirm instead before cashing in his chips at the bank of mayweather.

Difference is that Hatton generally gave VFM and Witter simply didn't despite his ability. You always felt short changed

"I've just paid to watch Junior Witter win the World title...and I really don't care!"

Rowley wrote:Always felt the whole line about Witter not being able to sell out a phone box was largely irrelevant in the whole debate. When you have a guy who can shift 50,000 tickets against Lazcano how many tickets his opponent can shift matters not a jot.

That's the point Rowley,Hatton sells the tickets,Whitter gets a good pay day out of it,which is exactly what Hatton didn't want him to have.

Nico the gman wrote:

Rowley wrote:Always felt the whole line about Witter not being able to sell out a phone box was largely irrelevant in the whole debate. When you have a guy who can shift 50,000 tickets against Lazcano how many tickets his opponent can shift matters not a jot.

That's the point Rowley,Hatton sells the tickets,Whitter gets a good pay day out of it,which is exactly what Hatton didn't want him to have.

It's one of the reasons I don't believe Khan wanted to face the likes of Thaxton or Murray claiming he was a level above them and they didn't bring in any fans.

Nico the gman wrote:

Rowley wrote:Always felt the whole line about Witter not being able to sell out a phone box was largely irrelevant in the whole debate. When you have a guy who can shift 50,000 tickets against Lazcano how many tickets his opponent can shift matters not a jot.

That's the point Rowley,Hatton sells the tickets,Whitter gets a good pay day out of it,which is exactly what Hatton didn't want him to have.

I appreciate that, however it was my view and still is that when a champion is called out by his clear number one contender the champion needs to come up with something better for not taking the fight than not wanting to give him a payday.

Rowley wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:

Rowley wrote:Always felt the whole line about Witter not being able to sell out a phone box was largely irrelevant in the whole debate. When you have a guy who can shift 50,000 tickets against Lazcano how many tickets his opponent can shift matters not a jot.

That's the point Rowley,Hatton sells the tickets,Whitter gets a good pay day out of it,which is exactly what Hatton didn't want him to have.

I appreciate that, however it was my view and still is that when a champion is called out by his clear number one contender the champion needs to come up with something better for not taking the fight than not wanting to give him a payday.

I agree the fight should have taken place,Hatton said he made his mind up when he was stood with Calzaghe and Whitter at the sports personality of the year and Whitter was still whispering snide remarks in his ear and showing him scant respect.

Met Hatton in Germany and was asking a good friend of his about the fight and he said he totally agreed the fight should happen and said countless people had told Ricky that, but like you say he did not want to give him the payday. Said he was aware how much grief he was getting about it and genuinely did not give a monkeys. Bit pig headed but up to him I suppose.

[quote="Nico the gman"][quote="Rowley"][quote="Nico the gman"]

Rowley wrote:]I agree the fight should have taken place,Hatton said he made his mind up when he was stood with Calzaghe and Whitter at the sports personality of the year and Whitter was still whispering snide remarks in his ear and showing him scant respect.

As has been said earlier - I thought the whole point of Boxing/ Sport was to prove you were the No 1/ Best -
Shouldn't the SPOTY incident have done the opposite and made Hatton more determined to shut him up and prove him wrong, by beating him in the ring.
Yes I think Hatton didn't want to give him a payday but moreso didn't want to risk losing to him.
In which other sport could you have a situation where a match is refused on the basis of not giving the opponent a payday!!! You wouldnt get Man Utd refusing to play West Ham in the 3rd of the FA Cup because WHU didnt deserve the gate receipts!! Apples and oranges i know  

Not sure Witter was ever a fight Hatton needed to prove he was the best..Which was Junior's problem.......

Kosta, Pac and Mayweather showed Hatton didn't lack bottle........

Rowley wrote:

Nico the gman wrote:

Rowley wrote:Always felt the whole line about Witter not being able to sell out a phone box was largely irrelevant in the whole debate. When you have a guy who can shift 50,000 tickets against Lazcano how many tickets his opponent can shift matters not a jot.

That's the point Rowley,Hatton sells the tickets,Whitter gets a good pay day out of it,which is exactly what Hatton didn't want him to have.

I appreciate that, however it was my view and still is that when a champion is called out by his clear number one contender the champion needs to come up with something better for not taking the fight than not wanting to give him a payday.

This is what Froch has been saying for years about Calzaghe...Carl has cashed in a few Warrior points and we are no longer allowed to mention the fact that Froch wasn't Calzaghe's clear number one contender

Hatton had no reason to give the fool a payday

Witter only got talked about through trying to make a name for himself by calling out Hatton all the time

Witter would have got KTFO and everyone who knows anything about boxing knew this

Truss has made a point that I've always argued, Hatton was frightened to face Whitter,and elected to fight the No1&2 PfP fighters instead.

Had Hatton fought Whitter, I have no doubt Hatton would have beat him,the difference in the 2 fighters is Hatton wouldn't have gone into his shell when Whitter caught him he'd have fought back, Whitter would have ran like a thief soon as Ricky laid a good shot on him.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Not sure Witter was ever a fight Hatton needed to prove he was the best..Which was Junior's problem.......

Kosta, Pac and Mayweather showed Hatton didn't lack bottle........

To be honest Truss they were win/win situations for Hatton, he wins and he's a hero, he loses and he's lost to the best in the world so no big deal. Wittier was high risk, low reward so constituted a far bigger risk.

Witter didn't get the biggest fights until he was past his best. So he was a bit unlucky. Gave Bradley a good fight but lost to the better guy. But by the time he fought Alexander he had serious injury concerns. He spent a lot of time trying to get back in the mix but he never had the fitness to compete as he should have done. I thought he was giving Gavin a bit of a lesson for the first 4 or 5 rounds, but ultimately faded badly. He should have retired earlier if he wasn't going to get back to prime shape. But he was extremely overconfident. Made him too lazy. At his best he was a great mover and could have been a very difficult fight for Hatton.