gatland bringing game into disripute?

Gatland is publicly moaning amount ref decisions and seems to be suggesting that was the cause of the Wales defeat. Should he face a fine for his comments? I personally think they are deluded. For one it wasn't a forward pass. Also Wales benefited from decisions. For example Phillips should have been red carded. Gatland spends alot of time bigging up Wales and finds it impossible to accept they were beaten fair and square. Make no bones about it Wales were played off the pitch. They lost because Australia are better.

In this case Gatland is correct to question the farce Wayne Barnes caused. Everyone at the stadium heard on the ref channel

Barnes "Allan what did you see?"

Rolland "the pass looked forward but you can check with the TMO"

Barnes "I have no response from the TMO, I will award the try".


Australian fans we met afterwards said they heard the TMO say "the pass is forward, no try, Wayne? Can you hear me?".

Everyone could hear, including Gatland. So you can not be surprised at him making comment.

Mae you sound like a give it up mate wales lost to the better team on the day.

I guess Gatland's entitled to his opinion that the ball was passed forward (passed, not travelled) but to suggest that Barnes arguably could have awarded a penalty try for Coopers early tackle is pretty ridiculous. The TMO had a fairly long look at it suggesting it was marginal at best, he was 20 metres out and there were still a couple of Wallabies to beat.

Although I think the pass was definitely forward I also think Wales paid the price for being too vocal in the media again. I do think he should face a sanction got complaining about the ref as this is not football. I would also like the irb to do something about the poor state of refereeing. Either party the laws or change them. Using interpretations just confused the matter for everyone and leads to every borderline decision being questioned.

With regards to yesterday's game I'm of two minds. Yes Wales weren't good enough and didn't really compete at the breakdown but there were two key decisions which went against Wales that could have changed the game. The cooper yellow was harsh and should have beena penalty at worst. Advantage should have been played and the try allowed. All in all a frustrating game from Wales as they shouldn't have been in the position to be that close at the death anyway. Lost in the forwards.

It was a close decision but I don't think the pass was forward if we're judging on hand position. Absolutely brilliant pick up though.

It is what it is, Wales could have won that game if they had better discipline, giving away penalties in front of the post is not a way to win test matches.

I don't have a problem with coaches pointing out perceived injustices but he should have balanced his post match comments by acknowledging Australia for being the better side by far on the day.

Particularly when you are talking yourself up pre match so much.

Fair enough that Gats thought the ref was wrong, I disagree that it was forward.


"The referee made the decision himself, without the TMO. I doubt he would have made that decision himself if it was the [New Zealand] All Blacks playing," said Gatland.

I thought the above comment was a bit much, steady on Gats.

To be honest I thought the scoreline flattered us.

Gatland whinging what a suprise. Why is he in no hurry to bring up Mike Philips blatantly stamping on QCs hand dead in front of Wayne Barnes and getting away with it ?

He needs to stop whinging and start looking into the issues he has against the top 3 SH teams.

He is deflecting blame

Clearly forward pass, he has the technology AND the mandate to check it, and didn't. Cost Wales the game. End of story. Don't give me any if this 'better team won' nonsense, were NZ the better team against Ireland last weekend?

Oh, I should also add that I think Australia were clearly the better team yesterday, Wales fully lived up to our 'village idiot' tag. We are truly the least intelligent team in world rugby. Our players with England's mindset would win the World Cup.

Surely Barnes did check. He watched it himself on the big screen and made up his own mind.

A few weeks ago Owens was being lauded as the best ref on the planet for having the courage to do the same thing.

Is the "acid test" for calling anything on a replay "clear and obvious"? I've heard lots of refs use that expression when going to the video.

MrsP wrote:Surely Barnes did check. He watched it himself on the big screen and made up his own mind.

A few weeks ago Owens was being lauded as the best ref on the planet for having the courage to do the same thing.

Is the "acid test" for calling anything on a replay "clear and obvious"? I've heard lots of refs use that expression when going to the video.

Just Sour grapes from Welsh Management at the moment . Accept the defeat by a better team and move on

I can't see how a pass that starts behind a line and finishes half a metre on front of it can be judged anything other thana forward pass. Momentum or not that pass is forward. Also there is no mention of momentum in the law and nothing on the irb laws website to suggest that refs have the freedom to interpret things in this way. If it is so then make it law not just anecdotal guidance.

As for his claim that Barnes wouldnt have made the decision himself if the All blacks were playing .... Its true . He wouldnt have even bothered to check with the TMO he'd have waved play on . And he did at that very same stadium All blacks v France

mckay1402 wrote:I can't see how a pass that starts behind a line and finishes half a metre on front of it can be judged anything other than a forward pass.  Momentum or not that pass is forward.  Also there is no mention of momentum in the law and nothing on the irb laws website to suggest that refs have the freedom to interpret things in this way.   If it is so then make it law not just anecdotal guidance.

Look, probably the majority of backline passes made at speed travel forward in relation to the ground.  Like if you drop an orange in a jumbo jet, it's travelling forward at 500 mph.

By your criterion the Sexton try that broke the third test for the lions was clearly forward - in relation to the ground, but not in relation to the positions of the two lions players.

Thought that on the whole Barnes might have favoured Wales slightly. And no it wasn't forward. And no it wasn't a YC. Good game though.

Bullsbok wrote:

MrsP wrote:Surely Barnes did check. He watched it himself on the big screen and made up his own mind.

A few weeks ago Owens was being lauded as the best ref on the planet for having the courage to do the same thing.

Is the "acid test" for calling anything on a replay "clear and obvious"? I've heard lots of refs use that expression when going to the video.

Just Sour grapes from Welsh Management at the moment . Accept the defeat by a better team and move on

Now we know why some Wales will never be a player in the wine producing world!

 

 

Please de-crypt your previous post, Mrs P.

Are you saying Wales can't sing loudly and full of heart whilst harvesting grapes?

Hands went forward, ball went forward, it's a forward pass. Folau wasn't running at full tilt, so the momentum issue is a red herring. Owens was praised last week because he took it on himself to make the correct decision. He also changed his mind about another call after being asked to check for a tackle in the air.
Being the better side doesn't give you a divine right to win a game , as I said, look at Nz last week.
Wales only have themselves to blame though. Shocking.

Higher_Ground wrote:Hands went forward, ball went forward, it's a forward pass. Folau wasn't running at full tilt, so the momentum issue is a red herring. Owens was praised last week because he took it on himself to make the correct decision. He also changed his mind about another call after being asked to check for a tackle in the air.
Being the better side doesn't give you a divine right to win a game , as I said, look at Nz last week.
Wales only have themselves to blame though. Shocking.

Believe what you want to believe . No point arguing here .

This is why the welsh are starting to be disliked in rugby circles. They blame others of being arrogent yet continue to big up themselves. When they fail to deliver they are robbed and just don't accept the true state of affairs

Bullsbok wrote:

Higher_Ground wrote:Hands went forward, ball went forward, it's a forward pass. Folau wasn't running at full tilt, so the momentum issue is a red herring. Owens was praised last week because he took it on himself to make the correct decision. He also changed his mind about another call after being asked to check for a tackle in the air.
Being the better side doesn't give you a divine right to win a game , as I said, look at Nz last week.
Wales only have themselves to blame though. Shocking.

Believe what you want to believe . No point arguing here .

Belief usually relates to things that you can't see/prove.

wrfc1980 wrote:This is why the welsh are starting to be disliked in rugby circles. They blame others of being arrogent yet continue to big up themselves. When they fail to deliver they are robbed and just don't accept the true state of affairs

  This was a perfect opportunity to dispel that view by just accepting defeat gracefully. But noooooo

wrfc1980 wrote:This is why the welsh are starting to be disliked in rugby circles. They blame others of being arrogent yet continue to big up themselves. When they fail to deliver they are robbed and just don't accept the true state of affairs

Don't forget that we also had the audacity to start winning the odd game. Nobody likes it when these uppity little savages forget their place. Cast your browser back to 2005, that's when the vitriol started. Don't forget this is your thread, commander sour grapes.

But hopefully we can learn from every other nation, and not complain any more.

Losing a close game as a once off is unlucky, possibly influenced by refereeing decisions or other factors. Losing narrowly nine times in a row is a lot harder to pin on factors other than just not being as good as your opponent.

Australia probably would have been unable to complain if they had lost that one because they bombed a number of great try scoring opportunities and should have been home and hosed after 60 minutes. At the same time, focusing on one refereeing decision as the reason Wales lost is a wee bit myopic. Is there any doubt the best team won?

He's an opinionated guy, we've known that since his days with Ireland. Perhaps he should have conceded though that his backrow overall were poor, that they were bested by AUS' 3rd choice openside and you can't expect to give AUS that much ball, that much possession and think they won't score.

Wales showed that they are good enough to compete.. That they will be in the mix come their RWC group but they are as far away from being champions elect as they were in the dark days of the early to mid 90s... Yes they can win these types of games, but consistently? Not a chance... If you need to roll a dice to get a six you have a half decent chance of succeeding, if you need to throw 4 sixes in a row you might as well say say goodbye.

Higher_Ground wrote:

Bullsbok wrote:

Higher_Ground wrote:Hands went forward, ball went forward, it's a forward pass. Folau wasn't running at full tilt, so the momentum issue is a red herring. Owens was praised last week because he took it on himself to make the correct decision. He also changed his mind about another call after being asked to check for a tackle in the air.
Being the better side doesn't give you a divine right to win a game , as I said, look at Nz last week.
Wales only have themselves to blame though. Shocking.

Believe what you want to believe . No point arguing here .

Belief usually relates to things that you can't see/prove.

But the hands weren't pointing forwards on the pass. Id agree though that they have themselves to blame. Went out to try and prove themselves with the backs and with the weakened midfield they were always likely to come off 2nd best, especially with Cooper in that form.

I thought it was a marginal call TBH, Folau's hands are facing backwards but the ball sort of slips out of his hands IMO (ie isn't passed properly). In those circumstances it's still possible for the ball to be passed forwards, and I thought in this case it was a tight call either way. Therefore Barnes got it right IMO. Let's not go over the whole momentum thing again, the law is actually worded in a way that you can (just about) interpret it that way, and it's been sufficiently explained on this site on a few others. At the pace the backs are running, if you still want them to have half a chance of breaking defenses, it's an absolute necessity. As mentionned, about 80% of passes to backs would otherwise be considered forwards (the Wilkinson to Robinson scoring pass in the 03 WC final for instance travels forwards, but is passed backwards).

As for Gats, sounds like sour grapes to me, sorry. Once more for about 60 minutes Wales played the exact same way they normally try to beat Australia with, and failed. It was only a flukey try which had them within 14 points (and some awful Aus finishing). Afterwards, they switched to actually keeping the ball more than two phases, chucked it around a bit rather than just boshing it up the middle, and came right back into it. Lesson learned? One can hope so, but given previous form I'm not holding my breath.

The suggestion that Cooper's infringement should have been a penalty try is of course the most laughable one out there, it was a penalty (the tackle is marginally early), the yellow is extremely harsh though defendable (and Barnes has previous form there so he's being consistent at least). There wasn't an advantage to Wales as the player tackled early (Evans?) knocked on as a result.

All in all though, had Wales played as they did in the last 20, they would probably have won (IMO) so have only themselves to blame for playing most of the game on Austalia's terms.

maestegmafia wrote:In this case Gatland is correct to question the farce Wayne Barnes caused. Everyone at the stadium heard on the ref channel

Barnes "Allan what did you see?"

Rolland "the pass looked forward but you can check with the TMO"

Barnes "I have no response from the TMO, I will award the try".


Australian fans we met afterwards said they heard the TMO say "the pass is forward, no try, Wayne? Can you hear me?".

Everyone could hear, including Gatland. So you can not be surprised at him making comment.

That's not what he said.  Barnes said "I can see it on the big screen, and it's not clear and obvious so I'm going to award the try".  

He did not say what you are suggesting.

He was running diagonally across field, passed backwards and the ball travelled slightly forward under momentum, but the tell tale sign is that the passing player ended up ahead of the ball when it was received. So given the laws of physics, the pass had to have been backward when he let go of it, unless it managed to accelerate in the tackle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpk5DmatW_U

3:18

Are you sure you're not being confused by the commentators talking? Barnes says "We are looking for a forward pass". Then dismisses it having seen the replay on the big screen.

Seems like a fair decision to me. Even given my own feelings about Barnes in general.

I don't think it was forward having looked at it again. The ball travels forward slightly, but is definitely not passed forward.

I think in that situation the benefit of the doubt should always go to the attacking team.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:In this case Gatland is correct to question the farce Wayne Barnes caused. Everyone at the stadium heard on the ref channel

Barnes "Allan what did you see?"

Rolland "the pass looked forward but you can check with the TMO"

Barnes "I have no response from the TMO, I will award the try".


Australian fans we met afterwards said they heard the TMO say "the pass is forward, no try, Wayne? Can you hear me?".

Everyone could hear, including Gatland. So you can not be surprised at him making comment.

That's not what he said.  Barnes said "I can see it on the big screen, and it's not clear and obvious so I'm going to award the try".  

He did not say what you are suggesting.

He was running diagonally across field, passed backwards and the ball travelled slightly forward under momentum, but the tell tale sign is that the passing player ended up ahead of the ball when it was received. So given the laws of physics, the pass had to have been backward when he let go of it, unless it managed to accelerate in the tackle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpk5DmatW_U

3:18

Are you sure you're not being confused by the commentators talking? Barnes says "We are looking for a forward pass". Then dismisses it having seen the replay on the big screen.

Seems like a fair decision to me. Even given my own feelings about Barnes in general.

I can back up what GE says, just watched the moment in question and it's word for word as he mentioned. brrr GE sticking to facts what next????

The pass wasn't passed forward.

Not sure what the problem is.

Many passes travel forward on momentum .

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I thought it was a marginal call TBH, Folau's hands are facing backwards but the ball sort of slips out of his hands IMO (ie isn't passed properly). In those circumstances it's still possible for the ball to be passed forwards, and I thought in this case it was a tight call either way. Therefore Barnes got it right IMO. Let's not go over the whole momentum thing again, the law is actually worded in a way that you can (just about) interpret it that way, and it's been sufficiently explained on this site on a few others. At the pace the backs are running, if you still want them to have half a chance of breaking defenses, it's an absolute necessity. As mentionned, about 80% of passes to backs would otherwise be considered forwards (the Wilkinson to Robinson scoring pass in the 03 WC final for instance travels forwards, but is passed backwards).

As for Gats, sounds like sour grapes to me, sorry. Once more for about 60 minutes Wales played the exact same way they normally try to beat Australia with, and failed. It was only a flukey try which had them within 14 points (and some awful Aus finishing). Afterwards, they switched to actually keeping the ball more than two phases, chucked it around a bit rather than just boshing it up the middle, and came right back into it. Lesson learned? One can hope so, but given previous form I'm not holding my breath.

The suggestion that Cooper's infringement should have been a penalty try is of course the most laughable one out there, it was a penalty (the tackle is marginally early), the yellow is extremely harsh though defendable (and Barnes has previous form there so he's being consistent at least). There wasn't an advantage to Wales as the player tackled early (Evans?) knocked on as a result.

All in all though, had Wales played as they did in the last 20, they would probably have won (IMO) so have only themselves to blame for playing most of the game on Austalia's terms.

The law is not worded in s way that could be open to interpretation. It days ifa ball is passed towards the opposing goal line then it's a forward pass

Exactly. The law is clear and the ball was passed backwards. End of story. Stop whining.

mckay1402 wrote:The law is not worded in s way that could be open to interpretation.   It days ifa ball is passed towards the opposing goal line then it's a forward pass

It what frame of reference?

Personally I don't like this 'momentum' stuff thrown about (pun intended). If it was about momentum if a guy is tackled hard and the ball goes forward, well that's momentum so should it be classes as forward?

It's all about the frame of reference. Using the pitch as frame of reference means that if the ball ends up closer to the try line then it's forward. In the player's frame of reference, if he is moving towards the try line faster than the ball is at the moment of release then it's not forward (in the player's frame of reference). This is the one the IRB seem to be coming down on.

It wasn't forward. The hands went flat. It's plain as day on video. If that's a forward pass then so was the pass from Scott Williams to North for the first Welsh try.

Disappointed at yet another loss for the NH, after a rousing anthem and the first try I thought it could be Wales' day. But with their current halfbacks they need to dominate the breakdown to beat the top sides. How Tipuric doesn't start for this team is unfathomable, he improves the side dramatically every time he takes the field.

What a whinging loser Gatland is

MrsP wrote:Surely Barnes did check. He watched it himself on the big screen and made up his own mind.

A few weeks ago Owens was being lauded as the best ref on the planet for having the courage to do the same thing.

Is the "acid test" for calling anything on a replay "clear and obvious"? I've heard lots of refs use that expression when going to the video.

Barnes asked the TMO because Rolland said

"the pass looked forward but you can check with the TMO"

Barnes asked the TMO, but could not hear the response. A good number of people in the crowd could hear the TMO say  "the pass is forward, no try, Wayne? Can you hear me?"

Barnes "I have no response from the TMO, I will award the try".

In the pas the ball goes forward of the 5m line and touches the pitch. It is clearly a knock on and not a try...!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpk5DmatW_U

He made a very poor decision. His touch judge, Allan Rolland thought it was forward when Barnes asked him, the TMO also thought it was forward. The replay on the big screen showed it was forward.

Another day where the ref detracts from the great rugby both teams played...

You really are a paracat arnt ya maes..

fa0019 wrote:He's an opinionated guy, we've known that since his days with Ireland. Perhaps he should have conceded though that his backrow overall were poor, that they were bested by AUS' 3rd choice openside and you can't expect to give AUS that much ball, that much possession and think they won't score.

Wales showed that they are good enough to compete.. That they will be in the mix come their RWC group but they are as far away from being champions elect as they were in the dark days of the early to mid 90s... Yes they can win these types of games, but consistently? Not a chance... If you need to roll a dice to get a six you have a half decent chance of succeeding, if you need to throw 4 sixes in a row you might as well say say goodbye.

To be fair, I think Hooper is now first choice.  He is an incredible player, and is improving with every game he plays.  Wherever the ball is, he will be also.  He also offers so much more in attack than Pocock.  Who do you see as second choice?  Smith?

maestegmafia wrote:

MrsP wrote:Surely Barnes did check. He watched it himself on the big screen and made up his own mind.

A few weeks ago Owens was being lauded as the best ref on the planet for having the courage to do the same thing.

Is the "acid test" for calling anything on a replay "clear and obvious"? I've heard lots of refs use that expression when going to the video.

Barnes asked the TMO because Rolland said

"the pass looked forward but you can check with the TMO"

Barnes asked the TMO, but could not hear the response. A good number of people in the crowd could hear the TMO say  "the pass is forward, no try, Wayne? Can you hear me?"

Barnes "I have no response from the TMO, I will award the try".

In the pas the ball goes forward of the 5m line and touches the pitch. It is clearly a knock on and not a try...!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpk5DmatW_U

He made a very poor decision. His touch judge, Allan Rolland thought it was forward when Barnes asked him, the TMO also thought it was forward. The replay on the big screen showed it was forward.

Another day where the ref detracts from the great rugby both teams played...

You are making that up, maes.  That is not what Barnes said.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

fa0019 wrote:He's an opinionated guy, we've known that since his days with Ireland. Perhaps he should have conceded though that his backrow overall were poor, that they were bested by AUS' 3rd choice openside and you can't expect to give AUS that much ball, that much possession and think they won't score.

Wales showed that they are good enough to compete.. That they will be in the mix come their RWC group but they are as far away from being champions elect as they were in the dark days of the early to mid 90s... Yes they can win these types of games, but consistently? Not a chance... If you need to roll a dice to get a six you have a half decent chance of succeeding, if you need to throw 4 sixes in a row you might as well say say goodbye.

To be fair, I think Hooper is now first choice.  He is an incredible player, and is improving with every game he plays.  Wherever the ball is, he will be also.  He also offers so much more in attack than Pocock.  Who do you see as second choice?  Smith?

You are correct, Hooper is an outstanding player and I do not disagree with Fa's points on Wales, we are not good enough to be in the frame for the world cup unless we are consistently winning close matches like yesterdays and the earlier game vs SA.

But with a young squad and plenty of depth in most positions we will improve over the net two years and hopefully god willing be in a good position going in to the RWC.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

MrsP wrote:Surely Barnes did check. He watched it himself on the big screen and made up his own mind.

A few weeks ago Owens was being lauded as the best ref on the planet for having the courage to do the same thing.

Is the "acid test" for calling anything on a replay "clear and obvious"? I've heard lots of refs use that expression when going to the video.

Barnes asked the TMO because Rolland said

"the pass looked forward but you can check with the TMO"

Barnes asked the TMO, but could not hear the response. A good number of people in the crowd could hear the TMO say  "the pass is forward, no try, Wayne? Can you hear me?"

Barnes "I have no response from the TMO, I will award the try".


In the pas the ball goes forward of the 5m line and touches the pitch. It is clearly a knock on and not a try...!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gpk5DmatW_U

He made a very poor decision. His touch judge, Allan Rolland thought it was forward when Barnes asked him, the TMO also thought it was forward. The replay on the big screen showed it was forward.

Another day where the ref detracts from the great rugby both teams played...

You are making that up, maes.  That is not what Barnes said.

I was at the game listening to the ref on the radio, that is exactly what he said.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:"I can see it on the big screen, and it's not clear and obvious so I'm going to award the try". 

That is what he said, before blowing his whistle.  I am not sure what referee you were listening to, but that is what Barnes said.

He said about the TMO before that when he was talking to Rolland.

Unbelievable a referee of his calibre thought from the replays that that pass which went forward and touched the ground was not a knock on...? Rolland said he thought it was a knock on too.

I think hes right to query it but IMO we would have still lost, Cooper run the show and ripped us to bits.