Had Folau's pass bounced...

I know there are lots of people who fell strongly one way or another about the 'forward pass' but I thought I'd just pose the question...

Had Folau's pass bounced before being picked up and scored what should the call have been?

If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

what the call "would" have been who knows. but what the call "should" have been is exactly the same as it was, whatever that was. ie, lateral pass that bounced, play on.

GE i swear that's twice in two days we've agreed.

we'd probably best not repeat that or people might start talking  

Does it really matter at this stage?

Quinns and Gee Eee  in the tree....

I don't understand the significance of the bounce.

GE is absolutely right

 

OzT wrote:Quinns and Gee Eee  in the tree....

Butterfingers, in the SA vs France match we had two tries disallowed.

Francois Louw chased a ball into the French goal whilst a frenchman got to the ball, touched the ball and the ground but with no downward pressure.

Here is the report from the SAReferees website.


In the first instance the TMO detected a knock-on when Morné Steyn tried to catch a high, floating pass and so Jaque Fourie was denied a try. The second one is of interest in this discussion - and it is just a discussion to try to clarity on law from an action in a match. It is a much easier way of getting things right than referees and TMOs have for they are required to produce rapid decisions in the heat of battle - not in an armchair.

South Africa go right from a tackle/ruck. Willie le Roux grubbers ahead. Falling back Yoann Huguet foots the ball back into the French in-goal. Huguet and Francois Louw of South Africa go for the ball, Huguet with right arm extended.

If Huguet grounds the ball first it will not be a try.
If Louw grounds the ball first, it will be a try.

The TMO's advice to the referee is that a Blue Player (Huguet) had taken the ball back and had grounded the ball. A So it would be a five-metre scrum to South Africa.

But did he ground it?

The law in this regard is most specific. There is a difference between the way a player carrying the ball is required to ground the ball and what a player is required to do if he is not carrying the ball.

Law 22.1 GROUNDING THE BALL
There are two ways a player can ground the ball:
(a) Player touches the ground with the ball. A player grounds the ball by holding the ball and touching the ground with it, in in-goal. ‘Holding’ means holding in the hand or hands, or in the arm or arms. No downward pressure is required.
(b) Player presses down on the ball. A player grounds the ball when it is on the ground in the in-goal and the player presses down on it with a hand or hands, arm or arms, or the front of the player’s body from waist to neck inclusive.

A player holding the ball is not required to put downward pressure on the ball.
A player not holding the ball is required to put downward pressure on the ball.

Huguet is certainly not carrying the ball, and so (b) above tells us what he has to do.

And it tells us that Huguet is required to press down on the ball.,

Huguet's hand touched the side of the ball. There is no sign of downward pressure at all. The one who puts downward pressure on the ball is Louw. who puts both hands and his torso on the ball, certainly exerting downward pressure.

That says that Huguet did not ground the ball.
Louw grounded the ball.

The try should have been awarded.



The second try was when Jean de Villiers glanced a pass and the ball clearly didn't go forward, Jaque Fourie picked it up and scored.

Bith should have been awarded, but wasn't.

The ifs means we should have won by more than 20, we didn't.

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't understand the significance of the bounce.

he is insinuating that if the ball bounced before reaching its intended reciever, that the "forward motion of hands" test should be ignored in favour of the more simple "did the ball go forward" rule used for dropped catches, fumbles and accidental knock-ons.

it's a bit ignorant of the rules, as a pass is not defined by whether it reaches its intended target in the air or not, only by first bounce relative to hands movement...etc...etc

I have 2 degrees, an HTEC, and an interest in particle physics, so I think you can trust me when I say that I can clear this one up.

IT WASN’T FORWARD.

FACT.

There, that’s sorted, I’m sure you’ll agree.

Will we ever hear the "LAST" of this. What does it matter? The try was given, you cannot change the result of the game.

The game is "OVER" Please let it go.

probably best to keep your interest in your man-parts off the forum Barney, no?

Only cause you said FACT.....

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:I have 2 degrees, an HTEC, and an interest in particle physics, so I think you can trust me when I say that I can clear this one up.

IT WASN’T FORWARD.

FACT.

There, that’s sorted, I’m sure you’ll agree.

Can you not do a thesis on it and present it to us in a factual manner please?

It would be highly appreciated.

My case is made.

I have no more to say on the matter.

Fact.

Doesn't work in mixed or lower case, has to be upper as in 'FACT'

quinsforever wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't understand the significance of the bounce.

he is insinuating that if the ball bounced before reaching its intended reciever, that the "forward motion of hands" test should be ignored in favour of the more simple "did the ball go forward" rule used for dropped catches, fumbles and accidental knock-ons.

it's a bit ignorant of the rules, as a pass is not defined by whether it reaches its intended target in the air or not, only by first bounce relative to hands movement...etc...etc

no no, thats not what I'm doing at all (PS thre are no rules in rugby).

My point is why is momentum such an issue with the pass, but ONLY when the pass is received?

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

PASS vs KNOCK-ON?

majesticimperialman wrote:Will we ever hear the "LAST" of this. What does it matter? The try was given, you cannot change the result of the game.

The game is "OVER" Please let it go.

If your not interested why have you clicked on the thread, read every post including the intro and decided to respond  

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

PASS vs KNOCK-ON?

So if I throw a 20 yard forward pass that bounces what am I penalised for?

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't understand the significance of the bounce.

he is insinuating that if the ball bounced before reaching its intended reciever, that the "forward motion of hands" test should be ignored in favour of the more simple "did the ball go forward" rule used for dropped catches, fumbles and accidental knock-ons.

it's a bit ignorant of the rules, as a pass is not defined by whether it reaches its intended target in the air or not, only by first bounce relative to hands movement...etc...etc

no no, thats not what I'm doing at all (PS thre are no rules in rugby).

My point is why is momentum such an issue with the pass, but ONLY when the pass is received?

i see you've given up the pretend england and glaws fan persona? must be liberating.

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

Absolute rubbish. It's nothing to do with point a to point b or x,y,z

You're quoting the wrong law anyway, what you want is the "throw forward" law, not the knock on or loss of possession law.

Later than point you've quoted, but still under law 12

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't understand the significance of the bounce.

he is insinuating that if the ball bounced before reaching its intended reciever, that the "forward motion of hands" test should be ignored in favour of the more simple "did the ball go forward" rule used for dropped catches, fumbles and accidental knock-ons.

it's a bit ignorant of the rules, as a pass is not defined by whether it reaches its intended target in the air or not, only by first bounce relative to hands movement...etc...etc

no no, thats not what I'm doing at all (PS thre are no rules in rugby).

My point is why is momentum such an issue with the pass, but ONLY when the pass is received?

i see you've given up the pretend england and glaws fan persona? must be liberating.

What are you talking about, please reread my other thread where I say that I beleive the pass was good, I am debating laws, not the result of the Wales result...

Didn''t you just go and tell someone accusations are not allowed on here?

Butterfingers, please go to this link.
SAREFEREES

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

PASS vs KNOCK-ON?

So if I throw a 20 yard forward pass that bounces what am I penalised for?

whether it bounced is irrelevant. if your hands passed the ball forwards its a forward pass. to take you utterly absurd example, if you threw the ball backwards but high in the air and the wind caught it and took it 20 yards forwards, it would not be counted as a forward pass. if the ball had bounced off your thick head, initially backwards but the wind took it 20 yards forwards, that would be a knock on?

clear?

motion of hands (which effectively incorporates momentum) for passing. bounce (or next contact with a player if no bounce) for a non-pass, and hence knock on.

clear?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

Absolute rubbish. It's nothing to do with point a to point b or x,y,z

You're quoting the wrong law anyway, what you want is the "throw forward" law, not the knock on or loss of possession law.

I throw the ball 20 yards forward that bounces before anyone touches it, what do I get penalised for?

PS it is everything to do with point A and B, theyre the indicators refs have and can only penalise when points A and B have completed.

In the letter of the law, the ball going forward even with momentum is a forward pass however the IRB actively ignore their own law in favour of momentum and the hands movement thing (as shown by their own video release) because the law as it is written makes attacking rugby virtually impossible- due to the laws of physics for a pass to end up going truly backward it has to be at a very steep angle requiring very deep runners or thrown from a very slow running pace. It is a case of ignoring their own laws because they are not practical, so the hands thing tries to account for where the pass would have been going without momentum. In fairness, it is pretty subjective and they probably need to find a better solution, and either of Wales or Australia's contended tries (2 for Aus, I thought their first try was dodgier) could have been called either way. In the end, this calls don't win or lose games, Wales not shutting the game down and their backrow not showing up lost the game

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't understand the significance of the bounce.

he is insinuating that if the ball bounced before reaching its intended reciever, that the "forward motion of hands" test should be ignored in favour of the more simple "did the ball go forward" rule used for dropped catches, fumbles and accidental knock-ons.

it's a bit ignorant of the rules, as a pass is not defined by whether it reaches its intended target in the air or not, only by first bounce relative to hands movement...etc...etc

no no, thats not what I'm doing at all (PS thre are no rules in rugby).

My point is why is momentum such an issue with the pass, but ONLY when the pass is received?

i see you've given up the pretend england and glaws fan persona? must be liberating.

What are you talking about, please reread my other thread where I say that I beleive the pass was good, I am debating laws, not the result of the Wales result...

Didn''t you just go and tell someone accusations are not allowed on here?

No. you can accuse me of whatever you want. and i won't go crying to the mods.

are you saying to accuse someone of being welsh is an insult?  

What you've done is selectively cut the wrong bit if the laws and spliced it into an excerpt from the correct law to pretend that a pass is treated as a knock on if it bounces, which is not the case.

That would be like trying to treat a collapsed maul as a ruck and complaining that a player didn't release or roll away.

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

PASS vs KNOCK-ON?

So if I throw a 20 yard forward pass that bounces what am I penalised for?

whether it bounced is irrelevant. if your hands passed the ball forwards its a forward pass. to take you utterly absurd example, if you threw the ball backwards but high in the air and the wind caught it and took it 20 yards forwards, it would not be counted as a forward pass. if the ball had bounced off your thick head, initially backwards but the wind took it 20 yards forwards, that would be a knock on?

clear?

motion of hands (which effectively incorporates momentum) for passing. bounce (or next contact with a player if no bounce) for a non-pass, and hence knock on.

clear?

Show me where it says in the laws that throwing the ball forward that bounces isn't a knock on? I can show you the exact place it says that if your throw the ball toward the opposition goal line it is.

My point is this, momentum is being discussed re passing, yet is not being applied similarly to knock on, which by definitions can be passes that do not go to hand and bounce in front of where you are.

Forward pass or forward catch - law 12



James O’Connor of Australia passes to Scott Higginbotham, a team mate. The referee calls it forward.

It was passed a metre before a line and caught over the line. Forward?

NO!

The ball drifting forward is not a throw forward. In this case it was a "forward catch", which is not an infringement. The ball must be thrown forward out of the hand. Judge action of the pass not the catch.

When players run forward, the ball moves with their forward velocity. The faster they run, the faster the ball is travelling forward with the player. If the player now passed the ball perfectly flat to a team-mate next to him, the ball will move forward with the passing player’s speed. It will drift forward at the same speed that the passing player was running! That’s not a forward pass!

Why penalise players who run fast?

You can test this by tossing something out of your car window when driving and see if the ball landed opposite the place where you tossed it out. It will not have.

Law 12 Knock on and Throw forward
DEFINITION: THROW FORWARD
A throw forward occurs when a player throws or passes the ball forward. ‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

It is the throw that counts, not the path of the ball.

Look at O’Connor’s hand as he passes. That it not a forward motion.

ChequeredJersey wrote:In the letter of the law, the ball going forward even with momentum is a forward pass however the IRB actively ignore their own law in favour of momentum and the hands movement thing (as shown by their own video release) because the law as it is written makes attacking rugby virtually impossible- due to the laws of physics for a pass to end up going truly backward it has to be at a very steep angle requiring very deep runners or thrown from a very slow running pace. It is a case of ignoring their own laws because they are not practical, so the hands thing tries to account for where the pass would have been going without momentum. In fairness, it is pretty subjective and they probably need to find a better solution, and either of Wales or Australia's contended tries (2 for Aus, I thought their first try was dodgier) could have been called either way. In the end, this calls don't win or lose games,  Wales not shutting the game down and their backrow not showing up lost the game

Thanks for a good response, in this case I'm not intereted in the result, purely the action of Folau's pass.

We all agree the ball has moved forward and today it was proved to me the ball went forward more than double the amount from Folaus pass than the Welsh centres knock on.

So why do the IRB put much more focus on the pass as opposed to the knock on? And had Folaus pass gone to ground would/should it have been called a knock on?

Bilt, i think you maybe need to calm down too. As you said, you are a poster first of all. Same rules for everyone then.

Bil

Although I quite enjoyed that article it is a subjective peice. With regards to the JOC it is never forward, he's simply thrown it over his own shoulder and evern though his speed is slowing down he's still well ahead of the ball.

It doesn't compare with Folau's pass though, and I havn't even mentioned the ball slipping from his hands...  

Quins, I am very calm, mate.

But the continuous vendettas are getting tedious and distracts from constructive debate.

I am a poster firstly wnating to discuss rugby, not having to jumo in on a sunday evening every weekend.

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

PASS vs KNOCK-ON?

So if I throw a 20 yard forward pass that bounces what am I penalised for?

whether it bounced is irrelevant. if your hands passed the ball forwards its a forward pass. to take you utterly absurd example, if you threw the ball backwards but high in the air and the wind caught it and took it 20 yards forwards, it would not be counted as a forward pass. if the ball had bounced off your thick head, initially backwards but the wind took it 20 yards forwards, that would be a knock on?

clear?

motion of hands (which effectively incorporates momentum) for passing. bounce (or next contact with a player if no bounce) for a non-pass, and hence knock on.

clear?

Show me where it says in the laws that throwing the ball forward that bounces isn't a knock on? I can show you the exact place it says that if your throw the ball toward the opposition goal line it is.

My point is this, momentum is being discussed re passing, yet is not being applied similarly to knock on, which by definitions can be passes that do not go to hand and bounce in front of where you are.

no they can't. forward passes are different from knock ons. how is this not clear? a pass that does not go to hand is the same as a pass that does go to hand, ie it's either forwards or backwards.

GloriousEmpire wrote:What you've done is selectively cut the wrong bit if the laws and spliced it into an excerpt from the correct law to pretend that a pass is treated as a knock on if it bounces, which is not the case.

That would be like trying to treat a collapsed maul as a ruck and complaining that a player didn't release or roll away.

No I have copied the law, not spliced anything, not selected anything. The law states that if the ball is thrown toward the oppositions goal line it is one of two things, passed forward or knocked on, that is the law mate, go check it out.

Actually, if the ball had bounced but gone forwards it's pretty unclear. The ball is thrown and as a pass, which implies a pass and passing rules, but going forward off a hand and hitting the ground is a knockon. It's a grey area of sorts, but I'd still say that it counts as a pass

But it is arguable, and rather subjective which is an issue

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

PASS vs KNOCK-ON?

So if I throw a 20 yard forward pass that bounces what am I penalised for?

whether it bounced is irrelevant. if your hands passed the ball forwards its a forward pass. to take you utterly absurd example, if you threw the ball backwards but high in the air and the wind caught it and took it 20 yards forwards, it would not be counted as a forward pass. if the ball had bounced off your thick head, initially backwards but the wind took it 20 yards forwards, that would be a knock on?

clear?

motion of hands (which effectively incorporates momentum) for passing. bounce (or next contact with a player if no bounce) for a non-pass, and hence knock on.

clear?

Show me where it says in the laws that throwing the ball forward that bounces isn't a knock on? I can show you the exact place it says that if your throw the ball toward the opposition goal line it is.

My point is this, momentum is being discussed re passing, yet is not being applied similarly to knock on, which by definitions can be passes that do not go to hand and bounce in front of where you are.

no they can't. forward passes are different from knock ons. how is this not clear? a pass that does not go to hand is the same as a pass that does go to hand, ie it's either forwards or backwards.

So please answer the question...

Your the ref, I've thrown an american football style rocket from my 22 line, it bounces without touching anyone, what do you give?

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:What you've done is selectively cut the wrong bit if the laws and spliced it into an excerpt from the correct law to pretend that a pass is treated as a knock on if it bounces, which is not the case.

That would be like trying to treat a collapsed maul as a ruck and complaining that a player didn't release or roll away.

No I have copied the law, not spliced anything, not selected anything. The law states that if the ball is thrown toward the oppositions goal line it is one of two things, passed forward or knocked on, that is the law mate, go check it out.

law gets updated by precedent. the IRB video and guidance to referees is what is determining current interpretation. you can hark back to the laws as much as you like but the reality is you would be barking up the wrong tree. referees are working from a different book.

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

PASS vs KNOCK-ON?

So if I throw a 20 yard forward pass that bounces what am I penalised for?

whether it bounced is irrelevant. if your hands passed the ball forwards its a forward pass. to take you utterly absurd example, if you threw the ball backwards but high in the air and the wind caught it and took it 20 yards forwards, it would not be counted as a forward pass. if the ball had bounced off your thick head, initially backwards but the wind took it 20 yards forwards, that would be a knock on?

clear?

motion of hands (which effectively incorporates momentum) for passing. bounce (or next contact with a player if no bounce) for a non-pass, and hence knock on.

clear?

Show me where it says in the laws that throwing the ball forward that bounces isn't a knock on? I can show you the exact place it says that if your throw the ball toward the opposition goal line it is.

My point is this, momentum is being discussed re passing, yet is not being applied similarly to knock on, which by definitions can be passes that do not go to hand and bounce in front of where you are.

no they can't. forward passes are different from knock ons. how is this not clear? a pass that does not go to hand is the same as a pass that does go to hand, ie it's either forwards or backwards.

So please answer the question...

Your the ref, I've thrown an american football style rocket from my 22 line, it bounces without touching anyone, what do you give?

if the hands went forward in the motion of passing, i give forward pass

ChequeredJersey wrote:Actually, if the ball had bounced but gone forwards it's pretty unclear. The ball is thrown and as a pass, which implies a pass and passing rules, but going forward off a hand and hitting the ground is a knockon. It's a grey area of sorts, but I'd still say that it counts as a pass

This is what i'm trying to get to the bottom of, and was schooled a bit on it today too.

An incompleted pass that goes forward toward the opposition goal line that bounces is a knock on, yet if the exact same pass is completed can be considered legal as momentum is allowed in passing.

The difference is in the propulsion. How far the ball travels forwards is irrelevant. I'm not sure how this is not clear at this point, still.

If he had knocked it backwards and the ball still travelled forward then momentum would have applied equally.

Unfortunately the commentators we are forced to listen to fail to understand this point, along with the "downward pressure" ruling that BT posted about earlier. It drives me nuts and makes me scream at the tv when they're rabbiting on about "has the ball travelled forward" and "was their sufficient downward pressure". There's no excuse for it really and it just motivates these silly arguments after the fact.

As mark twain said, it's not what you don't know, but what you know that just ain't so that's the problem.

butterfingers wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:If it had bounced it wouldn't have changed it at all. What happens after a bounce is irrelevant. What happens in flight is irrelevant. It's the direction IT WAS PASSED IN and that was clearly backwards.

According to the law it's nothing to do with the direction it was passed in, it's where the second contact is made, if running into a wind you can american style throw the ball one handed 10 yards forward, however if it bounces or is received behind you it's play on.

But the ball leaves Folau's hand at point A and is caught at point B (shown to me today as point B being 1.36m in front of point A) then if it bounces momentum is used as an indicator of the ball not going forward? Correct?

Then why when the Welsh lad (dont know his name) who knocks the ball on while 'tackled early' by Cooper, again point A leaving the hands, and point B making contact with the floor (shown to me today as point B being .74m in front of point A) where his hands are clearly facing backward again, is it given as a knock on (hence no advantage allowed) and not advantage as momentum has ensured the ball moving forward?

A knock-on occurs when a player loses possession of the ball and it goes forward, or when a player hits the ball forward with the hand or arm, or when the ball hits the hand or arm and goes forward, and the ball touches the ground or another player before the original player can catch it.

‘Forward’ means towards the opposing team’s dead ball line.

So if you pass the ball none of above apply and the only thing you have to consider is whether it's passed forward. Doesn't matter if it goes forward but is passed backwards and it doesn't matter if it hits the ground.

What I don't get, is in American Football, when the QB is rushed and he throws the ball to kill it in contact, when is it counted as a fumble and when as an incomplete pass?