Should The Regions Tell The WRU To Shove The PA & Join The Jeff?

First topic message reminder :

Welsh clubs look for Premiership future claims Wray wrote:Saracens boss Nigel Wray claims the Welsh regions want to join the English Premiership to secure their long-term future.


The four regions - Cardiff Blues, Newport Dragons, Ospreys and Scarlets - have been at loggerheads with the WRU for some time and Wray has told the Rugby Paper that they are looking east for their best hope.

"They'd love to play in the Aviva Premiership and we'd love it too," Wray said. "English and Welsh rugby has an enormous history, a rich culture of big club matches. What could be better than the restoration of the traditional fixtures, guaranteeing massive matches of real importance?

"We play each other anyway in the LV=Cup so why not make the fixtures really meaningful? An enlarged Aviva Premiership can be created with no extra fixtures to be squeezed into the calendar. It would be good for the WRU because it would provide their teams with tougher competition.

"There are fantastic old rivalries there and games would sell-out. Games like Leicester v Cardiff and Scarlets v Northampton would have real bite and meaning, which would appeal to the customers who often get forgotten in all of this.

"Bring in the Welsh, go to 16 teams and play 30 games plus the play-offs. You'd have to agree on promotion and relegation but that's not too difficult, so let's move forward and give our customers meaningful games."

The four regions have been given until the end of December to agree a new deal with the WRU. If they do not then they face an uncertain future, all the more so with this week's Heineken Cup news.

Read more at http://www.espnscrum.com/scrum/rugby/story/207777.html#uSiW3b7Qz9z2MrTW.99

There have been various posts on numerous supporters forums claiming that it may be in the regions, and welsh supporters, best interests to tell the WRU to take their Participation agreement and place it in a very specific orifice. Now that Wray has come out and said that he believes the regions would be welcomed into the Aviva, some fans are wondering if not only would it help the regions to keep hold of their stars, but it would also help to boost the regional attendances, because we would get more away supporters coming in etc etc.

Seeing as this has hi-jacked other threads I thought I would set up this thread to try and keep it all in one place.

That would make all our discussions about the business side of Rugby pale in comparison. The WRU created, or at least gave birth to the Regions. Now they don't like their offspring and are willing to let them die? That would be highly cynical indeed, if true (a polite understatement).

From an outside perspective, it does seem there is a clear division between the WRU and the Regions. Not sure where to take this. I think the status quo, in this case, is a good one.

doctor_grey wrote:That would make all our discussions about the business side of Rugby pale in comparison.  The WRU created, or at least gave birth to the Regions.  Now they don't like their offspring and are willing to let them die?  That would be highly cynical indeed, if true (a polite understatement).  

 

Of course it's true.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I have read elsewhere, that there are some serious allegations about players being told that signing for the regions would not be a wise move if they are wanting to prolong their career.  IF there is any truth in these allegations then I fear it is game over already, so it may not be a case of the regions saying shove it and join the Jeff, and more or a case of the regions knowing where they are not wanted and having to join the Jeff.

So the WRU's public line is that if a player plays outside Wales they're less likely to play for the national side, but in reality the opposite is true. Lovely stuff.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:That would make all our discussions about the business side of Rugby pale in comparison.  The WRU created, or at least gave birth to the Regions.  Now they don't like their offspring and are willing to let them die?  That would be highly cynical indeed, if true (a polite understatement).  

 

Of course it's true.

You can't say that with 100% confidence, which is why these are just rumours etc., no matter how blatantly obvious it may seem to us. There was the warning issues by the attorney general yesterday, http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/law/article3939576.ece , so it is important for people to remember that what they believe is an unarguable fact, is not really a fact unless they have evidence that would stand up in court. Otherwise it is just opinion, rumour, conjecture etc.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I have read elsewhere, that there are some serious allegations about players being told that signing for the regions would not be a wise move if they are wanting to prolong their career.  IF there is any truth in these allegations then I fear it is game over already, so it may not be a case of the regions saying shove it and join the Jeff, and more or a case of the regions knowing where they are not wanted and having to join the Jeff.

So the WRU's public line is that if a player plays outside Wales they're less likely to play for the national side, but in reality the opposite is true. Lovely stuff.

IF the mutterings that can be found on the internet are factual.

It wouldn't surprise me if it was true.

But wasn't it a case of "if you don't play in Wales you may not be available for all that we want from you therefore you may not get selected if there is someone as good at home"

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:That would make all our discussions about the business side of Rugby pale in comparison.  The WRU created, or at least gave birth to the Regions.  Now they don't like their offspring and are willing to let them die?  That would be highly cynical indeed, if true (a polite understatement).  

 

Of course it's true.

You can't say that with 100% confidence, which is why these are just rumours etc., no matter how blatantly obvious it may seem to us.  There was the warning issues by the attorney general yesterday, http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/law/article3939576.ece , so it is important for people to remember that what they believe is an unarguable fact, is not really a fact unless they have evidence that would stand up in court.  Otherwise it is just opinion, rumour, conjecture etc.

You only have to look at the facts to see it is true.

WRU record turnover 2012
WRU offered regions same deal in 2008 as they have up to 2018
WRU on record as saying it wants to centralise the entirety of welsh rugby including domestic budgets, marketing and recruitment

That, plus the sudden acceleration of international players leaving. Hibbard's going even though there's a year still left on his contract.

I posted the other day that the regions hold some of the best cards in all this, namely the international players on their books. Well, it looks like the WRU are doing their damnedest to get their cards off them, by hook or by Roger Lewis.

As with North, if Ospreys let someone buy him out of his contract they get more money. If they wait a year they have to pay for another year and get nothing when he leaves.

HammerofThunor wrote:As with North, if Ospreys let someone buy him out of his contract they get more money. If they wait a year they have to pay for another year and get nothing when he leaves.

Should be interesting to see if the WRU try to buy Hibbard for another region, like the did with north, and also to se if the Ospreys are made out to be the devil incarnate like the Scarlets were.

With all this all I can see is the WM/BBC spinning out how the regions have failed the welsh public and folded and how the union lead by Sir Roger the Great have swooped in and ensured that there are still two teams, in Cardiff and Swansea for us all to share.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:As with North, if Ospreys let someone buy him out of his contract they get more money. If they wait a year they have to pay for another year and get nothing when he leaves.

Should be interesting to see if the WRU try to buy Hibbard for another region, like the did with north, and also to se if the Ospreys are made out to be the devil incarnate like the Scarlets were.

With all this all I can see is the WM/BBC spinning out how the regions have failed the welsh public and folded and how the union lead by Sir Roger the Great have swooped in and ensured that there are still two teams, in Cardiff and Swansea for us all to share.

that's all well and good, but what about rugby teams

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Should be interesting to see if the WRU try to buy Hibbard for another region, like the did with north, and also to see if the Ospreys are made out to be the devil incarnate like the Scarlets were.
.

The regions have an agreement not to play or accept any centrally contracted player.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Should be interesting to see if the WRU try to buy Hibbard for another region, like the did with north, and also to see if the Ospreys are made out to be the devil incarnate like the Scarlets were.
.

The regions have an agreement not to play or accept any centrally contracted player.

The regions said one week that they would let the WRU work out the meanderings of Regional participation in Europe, then changed their mind a week later.

maestegmafia wrote:
The regions said one week that they would let the WRU work out the meanderings of Regional participation in Europe, then changed their mind a week later.

You'll have to elaborate on this. I'm aware of the RRW statement supporting the RCC, but what did they say a week earlier, and how is that relevant to the way the WRU have let the regions starve to death?

I like when Wray says " It would be good for the WRU because it would provide their teams with tougher competition."

like the regions find the pro 12 to easy!!

but it does bring up a serious point, a large number of Welsh fans have not accepted the pro 12 and think off it as a second class league and by joining the jeff they would be stepping up.

Whereas in Ireland and I think Scotland the Pro 12 is viewed as equal to the Top 14 and the Jeff, what can be done to change the Welsh view?

Also there may be a surge of interest at the start, but I think that if the Welsh fans see their teams sitting mid table or lower in the Jeff then they will start to lose interest.

I don't really blame the regions for this, the WRU are making an offer that isn't great and then are looking to alternatives RCC now Jeff, not really planning to move but for something to give them leverage to negotiate with the WRU with, at the moment the WRU have them over a barrel and they have no choice but to accept what is given.

What the WRU really should be offering is keeping the payments to the regions the same, but also giving out 20 or so central contracts to keep the best players in Wales.

They regions would be among the best in Europe if that were to happen.

Imagine Scarlets wouldn't have to pay about 3/4 Welsh players wages, and could strengthen the squad with money they used to pay them, would have them for about the same number of games a year currently, and the players would stay in Wales.

On another note, is it a policy of the regions and RRW, to let the Welsh internationals leave as they don't really make good business for the regions, high earners missing a lot of games? are they trying to force the WRU to keep the payments as agreed and to introduce central contracts on top?

The WRU have already said they'll offer central contracts but cut the funding down by £6M (to just the TV/sponsorship from Pro12 and HEC).

This has as much chance of happening as I have of coaching England at RWC15, it's the rugby equivalent of the "pie in the sky" dream of Celtic and Rangers joining the Englsih football Premier League.

Irish Londoner wrote:This has as much chance of happening as I have of coaching England at RWC15, it's the rugby equivalent of the "pie in the sky" dream of Celtic and Rangers joining the Englsih football Premier League.

+1 - A welsh wet dream with no chance of happening

geoff999rugby wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:This has as much chance of happening as I have of coaching England at RWC15, it's the rugby equivalent of the "pie in the sky" dream of Celtic and Rangers joining the Englsih football Premier League.

+1 - A welsh wet dream with no chance of happening

With the current stuff coming out, I would agree with you. Although maybe we will end up in the championship (about our level once every thing is done and dusted) which will mean we will have to earn our place at the top table etc.

Irish Londoner wrote:This has as much chance of happening as I have of coaching England at RWC15, it's the rugby equivalent of the "pie in the sky" dream of Celtic and Rangers joining the Englsih football Premier League.

or about as much chance as cardiff and swansea getting into the Premiership...

Except Celtic and Rangers are gash

Kingshu wrote:I like when Wray says " It would be good for the WRU because it would provide their teams with tougher competition."

like the regions find the pro 12 to easy!!

but it does bring up a serious point, a large number of Welsh fans have not accepted the pro 12 and think off it as a second class league and by joining the jeff they would be stepping up.

Whereas in Ireland and I think Scotland the Pro 12 is viewed as equal to the Top 14 and the Jeff, what can be done to change the Welsh view?

Also there may be a surge of interest at the start, but I think that if the Welsh fans see their teams sitting mid table or lower in the Jeff then they will start to lose interest.

I don't really blame the regions for this, the WRU are making an offer that isn't great and then are looking to alternatives RCC now Jeff, not really planning to move but for something to give them leverage to negotiate with the WRU with, at the moment the WRU have them over a barrel and they have no choice but to accept what is given.

What the WRU really should be offering is keeping the payments to the regions the same, but also giving out 20 or so central contracts to keep the best players in Wales.

They regions would be among the best in Europe if that were to happen.

Imagine Scarlets wouldn't have to pay about 3/4 Welsh players wages, and could strengthen the squad with money they used to pay them, would have them for about the same number of games a year currently, and the players would stay in Wales.

On another note, is it a policy of the regions and RRW, to let the Welsh internationals leave as they don't really make good business for the regions, high earners missing a lot of games? are they trying to force the WRU to keep the payments as agreed and to introduce central contracts on top?

Kingshu in terms of having to face full strength teams more often the AP would be a step up - this is because there are 4 countries in the Pro12 catering for 4 international teams whilst the AP caters for just the English sides. Perhaps the Welsh realise this.

quinsforever wrote:

beshocked wrote:

quinsforever wrote:Nigel Wray:

"Come on in boys, the water's blydi lovely, mun. We'll send your man Lewis a couple of these snazzy flags we've got, a cheerleader, an elvis costume and a season ticket and we're sure to win him over."

Quinsforever disappointed by this snide comment from you. Expect better.

was just having a bit of fun, beshocked. was highlighting the irony of the prl's most commercial owner trying to get the union's most commercial boss onside by sharing some of his trade secrets. i love that wray is trying lots of new things. we all need to be able to laugh at ourselves and our executives every once in a while. 

That usually means that his lots of new things are failing  

quinsforever wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:This has as much chance of happening as I have of coaching England at RWC15, it's the rugby equivalent of the "pie in the sky" dream of Celtic and Rangers joining the Englsih football Premier League.

or about as much chance as cardiff and swansea getting into the Premiership...

 
 
The difference is that the football sides have been part of the English league structure since it started, they didn't go from the LoW straight into the English Premiership, they got there through time and investment.
 
I think we all realise that Mr. Wray is on a wind up but on the off chance that he's serious let's look at the potential issues -assuming that the WRU are RRW are both actually in favour.
1 - Could the Jeff expand by four extra teams and if so should they all be Welsh? If there's expansion what about Leeds, Bristol or London Welsh.
2 - Relegation - would the Welsh sides relegate into the Championship or back to the Welsh Leagues? If to Wales then would there be possible promotion for say Ponty if they win the Welsh League?
3 - As there will be at some point an international club competition how would the mid table sides chasing HEC places feel about missing out to a Welsh side - would Bath be happy to go into the Amlin so Scarlets can go into the HEC?
4 - The Welsh clubs would have to leave the WRU and become members of the RFU to get funding, would the English clubs be OK with this?
5 - Visiting English sides might generate more interest and bigger crowds in Wales - would visiting Welsh sides generate bigger crowds for the English home games, given that standard wise the Welsh would be somewhere between London Irish and Exeter?

quinsforever wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:This has as much chance of happening as I have of coaching England at RWC15, it's the rugby equivalent of the "pie in the sky" dream of Celtic and Rangers joining the Englsih football Premier League.

or about as much chance as cardiff and swansea getting into the Premiership...

Nope

Why would the regions have to leave the WRU?

I cannot see the English Championship clubs accepting this unless it comes with enlarged opportunities for them such as 2 demotions and promotions each year.

If this could be made to happen I think it could only be good for Welsh club rugby fans as -
1) nearly every match would be against strong opposition and more exciting than many current games
2) If we had an equal share of TV revenues our teams could afford to keep top Welsh players
3) More local derbies and easily accessible away games against the likes of Gloucester and Bath
4) Most importantly, we know there is nothing more enjoyable than beating the English!

Newsilure wrote:I cannot see the English Championship clubs accepting this unless it comes with enlarged opportunities for them such as 2 demotions and promotions each year.

If this could be made to happen I think it could only be good for Welsh club rugby fans as -
1) nearly every match would be against strong opposition and more exciting than many current games
2) If we had an equal share of TV revenues our teams could afford to keep top Welsh players
3) More local derbies and easily accessible away games against the likes of Gloucester and Bath
4) Most importantly, we know there is nothing more enjoyable than beating the English!

there are definitely hurdles. but i would love to see it too.  

Of course if the Welsh and English merge I do hope they realize they will only get the same number of European Rugby places as the remaining 3 countries in the Pro12.

Places should be based on Leagues not Unions after all  

Why on earth would we want to play in Europe?

Its all about the money - have you not been listing to McCafferty, Wray and Craig  

We'll get in with the French and South Africans. Maybe we'll let your guys play for London Irish. Let the provinces become feeder teams. Actually that's a good idea for LW and LS as well. Just need to set up a few more.

(Before anyone gets their knickers in a knot, that would be terrible)

any sign of any welshmen on this thread?

quinsforever wrote:any sign of any welshmen on this thread?

Quins, to the title of this topic, it looks as though the FINAL BATTLE has just begun.

quinsforever wrote:any sign of any welshmen on this thread?

We're watching!

It's all just screwed up isn't it.
What ever will be will be I guess. Either way we look at it,it's wither a big gamble or he idea has a lot of negatives.
I'm just getting fed up with it all and the constant exodus of players is making it even worse. If i was one of the regional player si would wan to get away to France from all this mess as well.

606 plays so nice. i follow a welsh site where this was just written about someone defending the actions of the WRU

"but youre not a fan youre a small mind Poopie stirring pillock"

606 put poopie instead. its civil war out there folks!

beshocked wrote:Saracens are not a proper club, a team with a plastic pitch, crass and rude using cheap gimmicks, South African,greedy, commercially driven, criticised for poor attendances, a mouthy CEO and Chairman, boring, oh and of course breaking the salary cap.

Yes, that sums up Saracens alright. Couldn't have put it better myself.

As for the Welsh, if they commit Hari-kiri professional rugby is doomed outside England and France. At that point, I think I might just have to find a new sport to follow sadly. I can't believe the viciousness of the English and French. They would literally love to destroy rugby in our countries. What will that do for the Six Nations? What will it do for global rugby?

The WRU and RRW are utterly incompetent that they still haven't managed to put a deal in place. I can'r find any merit in either the Union or regions. They seem to all be completely moronic.

Roger Lewis appears to have been a very naughty boy. I think his background as a radio one show producer or whatever he was, didn't prepare him for the depth of feeling the regions have, and the lengths they are prepared to go to. Seems like roger thought he was just playing a game of boardroom/legal chess.

this alleged telling of players not to re-sign with the regions over the last few weeks is not good, and is not how any head of a union should be behaving in relation to the clubs that they have a duty of care and supervision for.

Notch wrote:The WRU and RRW are utterly incompetent that they still haven't managed to put a deal in place. I can'r find any merit in either the Union or regions. They seem to all be completely moronic.

comments like this are what make me keen on the welsh regions joining the AP.

Notch wrote:The WRU and RRW are utterly incompetent that they still haven't managed to put a deal in place. I can'r find any merit in either the Union or regions. They seem to all be completely moronic.

Finding political compromise can be troublesome, but in this instance I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's not even the blind leading the blind in Welsh rugby admin, both sides are still stumbling around in the dark trying to find a wall, while the rest of the rugby world marches on regardless.

Presumably if the Welsh Regions joined the Jeff, it would be against WRU wishes, and therefore there would be no link to the rest of Welsh rugby that still remained under WRU jurisdiction?

Every team is just the apex of a pyramid supporting it, and a lot of that support: School/Academy/Club/coaching/resources etc. is mostly Union funded so how does that work if the Regions become divorced from the WRU?

The Great Aukster wrote:Presumably if the Welsh Regions joined the Jeff, it would be against WRU wishes, and therefore there would be no link to the rest of Welsh rugby that still remained under WRU jurisdiction?

Every team is just the apex of a pyramid supporting it, and a lot of that support: School/Academy/Club/coaching/resources etc. is mostly Union funded so how does that work if the Regions become divorced from the WRU?

actually in wales the regions are responsible for the academies, and i would say they have done a damn fine job for the national team in that respect.

"A total of 12 of the players on the Lions Tour have come through regional development pathways and Academy Systems." Stuart Gallacher.

WRU have opened the mother of all cans of worms here.

quinsforever wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:Presumably if the Welsh Regions joined the Jeff, it would be against WRU wishes, and therefore there would be no link to the rest of Welsh rugby that still remained under WRU jurisdiction?

Every team is just the apex of a pyramid supporting it, and a lot of that support: School/Academy/Club/coaching/resources etc. is mostly Union funded so how does that work if the Regions become divorced from the WRU?

actually in wales the regions are responsible for the academies, and i would say they have done a damn fine job for the national team in that respect.

"A total of 12 of the players on the Lions Tour have come through regional development pathways and Academy Systems." Stuart Gallacher.

WRU have opened the mother of all cans of worms here.

WRU have set up a national academy  

http://www.wru.co.uk/eng/news/22863.php

"A successful National Academy will give us another edge in our strategic planning aimed at selecting and retaining the best players for senior Welsh international selection."

WRU National Academy members:
Jordan Williams (Scarlets, full back / outside half), Hallam Amos (Dragons, full back), Harry Robinson (Blues, wing), Dafydd Howells (Ospreys, wing), Ashley Evans (Ospreys, full back), Cory Allen (Blues, centre), Thomas Pascoe (Blues, centre), Jack Dixon (Dragons, centre), Sam Davies (Ospreys, outside half), Rhys Patchell (Blues, outside half), Rhodri Williams (Scarlets, scrum half), Nicky Smith (Ospreys, prop), Thomas Davies (Blues, prop), WillGriff John (Blues, prop), Daniel Suter (Ospreys, prop), Nicky Thomas (Ospreys, prop), Elliot Dee (Dragons, hooker), Shaun O'Rourke (Ospreys, lock), Jack Jones (Ospreys, lock), Adam Williams (Ospreys, lock), Rhodri Hughes (Ospreys, lock), Sion Bennett (Scarlets, back row), Ieuan Jones (Dragons, back row), Ellis Jenkins (Blues, back row), Daniel Thomas (Scarlets, back row), James Benjamin (Dragons, back row), Dan Baker (Ospreys, back row)

Wales's four regions will have showdown talks with the Welsh Rugby Union next week, ready to take legal action for the right to play in cross-border tournaments without needing permission from their governing body.

The regions are angry that the WRU used last month's international programme to try to persuade players who are coming out of contract with the regions at the end of the season, including Sam Warburton, Leigh Halfpenny and Alun Wyn Jones, not to sign new deals.

The participation agreement between the regions and the WRU, which covers the release of players to Wales, runs out at the end of the season. The union has given the four until the end of the month to commit to what would be a rolling on of the agreement until 2018 with no extra money.

The players were told that if the regions did not sign an agreement which would mean that they would receive the same amount in real terms in 2018 as they did in 2009, the union would offer them central contracts and look to set up their own teams.

The regions and the WRU will meet on Wednesday when the professional rugby game board convenes for the final time before the 31 December participation agreement deadline. One reason that the four have refused to sign is uncertainty over the future of the Heineken Cup and the offers that have been made to players in the last year of their deals are conditional on there being a European tournament next season.

The regions pledged their support for the Rugby Champions Cup, a tournament proposed by the England and French clubs to replace the Heineken Cup, only for the WRU to commit them to the competition run by European Rugby Cup Ltd at a meeting of unions in Dublin towards the end of last month.

The regions have taken legal advice and believe a precedent set 20 years ago makes success against the WRU more likely than not. Newport County, the football club which had been reformed after going bankrupt, was told by the Football Association of Wales that it would no longer be able to play in the English league system and had to take part in what was the then League of Wales. The club took the FAW to the high court and won, and last season secured promotion back to the Football League.

"The WRU, by telling us we have to play in the Heineken Cup with a more modest increase in funding than the other teams in the tournament at a time when we receive less centrally than any of them, are not allowing us to run our business properly," said one regional official. "It amounts to a restraint of trade. We believe we have the right to explore opportunities elsewhere, whether it is an Anglo-Welsh league or an alternative to the Heineken Cup. We are being squeezed by our own union to the point where they are telling our players not to sign contracts. This cannot go on."

The regions are considering calling an extraordinary general meeting of the Welsh Rugby Union and proposing a vote of no confidence in the executive, not because they entertain any prospect of winning but because there is a desire to make their dealings with the union in the last couple of years public.

Some players have already decided not to get involved in the crossfire. The second-row Ian Evans is leaving Ospreys for Toulon and the region has given permission to the Wales hooker Richard Hibbard, who has another season on his contract, to talk to Wasps and will not demand a transfer fee if the forward agrees terms out of respect for the 10 years he has spent with the side. Contract offers to his fellow Lions Alun Wyn Jones and Adam Jones remain on the table.

Scarlets hope to retain the fly-half Rhys Priestland, a target for Gloucester, and the centre Scott Williams, but the lack of progress on Europe has made the four regions, who have agreed to stick together and speak as one, determined to go their own way if talks with the WRU next week yield nothing.

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/dec/05/wales-regions-legal-action-against-board

Just to add, Sam Warburton's dad has been tweeting about this and he's not happy with the WRU at all.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Just to add, Sam Warburton's dad has been tweeting about this and he's not happy with the WRU at all.

Don't mean to be an arse...but is that significant?