Wales four regions 'ready to take legal action against WRU'

Wales' regions reportedly could take legal action for the right to play in cross-border tournaments without permission from their governing body.
According to the Guardian newspaper  the regions are to have talks with the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) next week.
The regions want to play against English clubs, rather than be forced by the WRU to compete in the Heineken Cup.
They are also upset the WRU reportedly tried to persuade Wales players not to sign new deals with the regions.
They claim that happened during the autumn internationals with Sam Warburton, Alun Wyn Jones and Leigh Halfpenny, who are all coming out of regional contracts, among those believed to have been spoken to.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25255119

This HC mess just keeps on giving...

"They are also upset the WRU reportedly tried to persuade Wales players not to sign new deals with the regions."

That's massive if true!

Don't the WRU own 50% of the Dragon's. Does that mean they are suing themselves.

Intriguing....

"The regions, says the Guardian, are considering a move to call an extraordinary general meeting of the Welsh Rugby Union and proposing a vote of no confidence in the executive.

It is a tactic they will adopt not because they believe they have any chance of winning a vote but because they want to make their dealings with the WRU in the last couple of years public."

The PRL were ready to take legal action against the erc/unions. Load of talk. Is it true the WRU subsidises the regions to the tune of 4M a year each?

Don't blame them the way they are getting treated.

"The regions, says the Guardian, are considering a move to call an extraordinary general meeting of the Welsh Rugby Union and proposing a vote of no confidence in the executive.
It is a tactic they will adopt not because they believe they have any chance of winning a vote but because they want to make their dealings with the WRU in the last couple of years public..."

Shambles.

Standulstermen wrote:The PRL were ready to take legal action against the erc/unions. Load of talk. Is it true the WRU subsidises the regions to the tune of 4M a year each?

Sort of, but a lot of it is the TV money that any other club gets direct.  The WRU receives the TV monies for all competitions and distributes as it sees fit (within the participation agreement, obviously).

Griff

Just to educate me then. The regions themselves are run independently of the WRU though are they? I meant they aren't like the provinces in that they are the WRU. They have owners??

Yes, run independently but I guess 'shepherded' but the WRU via the participation agreement.

I think most of the problems stem from the way the regions formed.  Rather than having the balls to set up 4 new entities that the WRU controlled, they forced 8 clubs to merge into 4 teams.  That meant you had 8 business owners told to put their businesses together.  Some stayed, some left, but regardless it gave the WRU little control.  So now you have independent entities sort of controlled by the WRU through the participation agreement, but with no risk taken on by the WRU.  If a region fails or goes bankrupt then it's down to the owners to take the hit. WRU then has clean hands.

I know what you're going to say though - if they're run independently then they shouldn't need WRU handouts/funding.  I don't know the answer to that one I'm afraid.

If something is privately owned, the owners should have names.

So direct question to any Welsh person who is in a position to answer:

The names of the owners of each of the four Regions please?  
Or the Major shareholding owner if they are group owned entities?  And just what percentage of ownership rights does each major shareholder possess?

Who sold these regions to present owners? Did present owners cough up real money to purchase the new Regions?  

If these regions are privately owned then all that info should be known publically, and to people who are more involved with Welsh rugby than I am.

Some interesting points coming out recently and to be honest even though the regions are looked at the RCC and jeff I am kinda agree with them. The WRU are really mistreating them.

The agreement the WRU wants them to sign means they will be given the same funds as they got in 2009 up untill 2018! No way is this acceptable and I don't blame the regoins for looking at alternatives be it RCC or Jeff, so at least they can try and get a better deal from the WRU.

From an outside pov it does appear the WRU want to slowly kill of the regions and to enter thier own teams with centrally contracted players. They are doing this by underfunding them, next stage (if believed) is to centrally contract top players, after that I'm guessing one region will be replaced by RGC1404, who the WRU will move most of the centrally contracted players to it. Then repeat the process with a WRU team entered into lower leagues where the replaced region was and in a few years another region removed for this WRU team.

As a poster on another site put it:

'You can hardly blame the regions for their stance. No increase in money in, what, 9 years is it, and getting less and less access to international players that they are expected to pay wages for with the WRU posting record profits on the back of the success of those international players.'


http://draggedup.co.uk/chat/viewtopic.php?t=5223&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

SecretFly wrote:If something is privately owned, the owners should have names.

So direct question to any Welsh person who is in a position to answer:

The names of the owners of each of the four Regions please?  
Or the Major shareholding owner if they are group owned entities?  And just what percentage of ownership rights does each major shareholder possess?

Who sold these regions to present owners?  Did present owners cough up real money to purchase the new Regions?  

If these regions are privately owned then all that info should be known publically, and to people who are more involved with Welsh rugby than I am.

Think this seams to cove it pretty well.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_of_regional_rugby_union_teams_in_Wales

It appears to me 10 years later the WRU want to put in place thier orginal plan that they couldn't afford to do in 2003.

Kingshu wrote:

From an outside pov it does appear the WRU want to slowly kill off the regions

Why don't the WRU just buy out the present 'owners'.  This is business?  Private owners not getting their way, being funded by an outside company anyway, WRU want more control over players and which teams they play in.  Better option would be for the WRU to offer curent owners a pay-off package and assume their new 'ownership' rights without 'owners' making life difficult.

In short, rather than invent a bunch of new WRU 'regions' (and the hefty investment that would require) just instead purchase up-and-running ones?

Griff wrote:"They are also upset the WRU reportedly tried to persuade Wales players not to sign new deals with the regions."

That's massive if true!  

agree. roger lewis caught with his hand in the cookie jar. if this is true, i do not see how roger lewis can survive these allegations. the wru, like the rfu, has an absolutely 100% clear responsibility to care for the game of rugby AT ALL LEVELS in Wales.

did i read correctly that Roger Lewis resisted pressure for the appointment of an independent PRGB?

actually i found a link to the statement on this issue by the regions.

obviously roger lewis wouldnt want an independent PRGB (professional regional game board) as this would take away his power to advise players to leave (WRU wouldnt be able to offer central contracts)

http://www.scarlets.co.uk/eng/5682.php

SecretFly wrote:If something is privately owned, the owners should have names.

So direct question to any Welsh person who is in a position to answer:

The names of the owners of each of the four Regions please?  
Or the Major shareholding owner if they are group owned entities?  And just what percentage of ownership rights does each major shareholder possess?

Who sold these regions to present owners?  Did present owners cough up real money to purchase the new Regions?  

If these regions are privately owned then all that info should be known publically, and to people who are more involved with Welsh rugby than I am.

No-one coughed up money to purchase the regions as there was nothing to purchase. They were just formed from putting the resournces (players, coaches) together from two different teams. A bit of goodwill from clubs allowing this new entity to use its facilities, stadium and pitch, and voila a 'region' was born (for 'region' read 'merger' of two teams).

SecretFly wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

From an outside pov it does appear the WRU want to slowly kill off the regions

Why don't the WRU just buy out the present 'owners'.  This is business?  Private owners not getting their way, being funded by an outside company anyway, WRU want more control over players and which teams they play in.  Better option would be for the WRU to offer curent owners a pay-off package and assume their new 'ownership' rights without 'owners' making life difficult.

In short, rather than invent a bunch of new WRU 'regions' (and the hefty investment that would require) just instead purchase up-and-running ones?

at what price? that would be the easiest "abuse of monopoly power" court case i have ever heard of if a not-for-profit regulator with a duty of care attempts to bankrupt entities who require its authorisation in order to buy them at bargain basement prices?

no chance.

not unless the WRU offered a very full and fair price. even then, after all the bad blood, hard to imagine the regional club owners wanting to sell out to Roger Lewis. contrary to popular belief, the welsh regions are not run solely as investments...

Secretfly,

I can only talk about Gwent Dragons. Their two 50% shareholders are Newport RFC and the WRU. This occurred because Ebbw Vale walked away and the ERU would not allow Newport RFC to be sole owners of a region.

SecretFly wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

From an outside pov it does appear the WRU want to slowly kill off the regions

Why don't the WRU just buy out the present 'owners'.  This is business?  Private owners not getting their way, being funded by an outside company anyway, WRU want more control over players and which teams they play in.  Better option would be for the WRU to offer curent owners a pay-off package and assume their new 'ownership' rights without 'owners' making life difficult.

In short, rather than invent a bunch of new WRU 'regions' (and the hefty investment that would require) just instead purchase up-and-running ones?

I think that maybe this is the plan but if they have the top players on central contracts or the regions on limited budgets therefore not being very competitive, the WRU could buy them out for a lot less than if they were well funded European superpowers. Ie Ospreys are prob worth less now than in 2009 and in 2/3 years time with limited funds would be cheaper again.

Weren't the regions 'owned' by the clubs that formed them? So Ospreys were owned by Neath RFC and Swansea RFC. Whoever owned these clubs owned the Ospreys. I think that's how it started, but not sure.

StandUlstermen, the WRU give the regions £9.1M per year. This comes from TV and sponsorship money for the Pro12 and ERC. The WRU also give £6M per year for additional player release, limiting the numbers of NWQ players, etc. In addition WRU fund the academies (I this is about £1M per year).

So in total it's about £16.5M in the last Annual Report.

For context the IRFU funded the Provinces £18.5M last year and also have central contracts.

The English clubs get about £14M per year from the RFU and have control over their own TV and sponsorship deals.

Not sure how much the SRU give their temas but their salary budget was recently increased to £4.2M

I feel like going into hibernation for a few years until the dust has settled and NH professional rugby has been sorted out – though right now, peace in the Middle East looks like a more likely prospect. It’s ridiculous these boards have primarily become a place to argue about European trade law, accountancy reports and TV rights. I haven’t seen a Gavin Henson article for months FFS! Big Phil Vickery could retire right now and no one would notice!

phil vickery's retired?

SecretFly wrote:If something is privately owned, the owners should have names.

So direct question to any Welsh person who is in a position to answer:

The names of the owners of each of the four Regions please?  
Or the Major shareholding owner if they are group owned entities?  And just what percentage of ownership rights does each major shareholder possess?

Who sold these regions to present owners?  Did present owners cough up real money to purchase the new Regions?  

If these regions are privately owned then all that info should be known publically, and to people who are more involved with Welsh rugby than I am.

Cardiff Blues are the pro side of Cardiff RFC whose chairman is Peter Thomas.
Cardiff Athletic Club are the major shareholder who also own Cardiff Arms Park.
There we go.

MarcusHalberstram wrote:I feel like going into hibernation for a few years until the dust has settled and NH professional rugby has been sorted out – though right now, peace in the Middle East looks like a more likely prospect.  It’s ridiculous these boards have primarily become a place to argue about European trade law, accountancy reports and TV rights.  I haven’t seen a Gavin Henson article for months FFS!  Big Phil Vickery could retire right now and no one would notice!

Money, money , money that is the problem and the reason Europe is in the mess its in now. This is why I hope the GAA never goes the proffessional route as money ruins everything good. Nobody has learned from soccers mistakes.

MarcusHalberstram wrote:I feel like going into hibernation for a few years until the dust has settled and NH professional rugby has been sorted out – though right now, peace in the Middle East looks like a more likely prospect.  It’s ridiculous these boards have primarily become a place to argue about European trade law, accountancy reports and TV rights.  I haven’t seen a Gavin Henson article for months FFS!  Big Phil Vickery could retire right now and no one would notice!

Good point. What's happened to him?

Roger Lewis has signed him for RGC1404.

A number of the post above talk of the WRU subsidising the regions. Surely all the WRU's and other unions's money comes from utilising the players of regions and clubs. So in truth the unions have no income other than that generated by using the resources of the regions and clubs they claim to subsidise.

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

From an outside pov it does appear the WRU want to slowly kill off the regions

Why don't the WRU just buy out the present 'owners'.  This is business?  Private owners not getting their way, being funded by an outside company anyway, WRU want more control over players and which teams they play in.  Better option would be for the WRU to offer curent owners a pay-off package and assume their new 'ownership' rights without 'owners' making life difficult.

In short, rather than invent a bunch of new WRU 'regions' (and the hefty investment that would require) just instead purchase up-and-running ones?

at what price? that would be the easiest "abuse of monopoly power" court case i have ever heard of if a not-for-profit regulator with a duty of care attempts to bankrupt entities who require its authorisation in order to buy them at bargain basement prices?

no chance.

not unless the WRU offered a very full and fair price. even then, after all the bad blood, hard to imagine the regional club owners wanting to sell out to Roger Lewis. contrary to popular belief, the welsh regions are not run solely as investments...

Aha...knew I'd pick off someone like you, quins. The thing is the regions, according to themselves, aren't even viable entities much less products worth too much on an open market right now. And that's not me talking...but people like you and many Welsh people themselves.

Yeah, the old PRL argument reversed: "The ERC (regions) are dead in the water. We have the money to rebuild them.... but the conditions are, we own the show!!!"

no it would be like the IRB crushing ERC and then setting up a competitor that it owned outright

Exiledinborders wrote:A number of the post above talk of the WRU subsidising the regions. Surely all the WRU's and other unions's money comes from utilising the players of regions and clubs. So in truth the unions have no income other than that generated by using the resources of the regions and clubs they claim to subsidise.

Precisely. The problem is that the WRU seem to have realised this and are now trying to ensure that the regions have as few international players as possible.

A poster on another forum posted something worth sharing:

'Rugby needs players and supporters and our own governing body have absolutely no respect for either of them let alone the region's and clubs.'

http://www.scarletfever.org/forum/wru-could-be-sued-by-regions_topic38583_page4.html

Thunor 

Good post and thanks for providing context with the IRFU. The difference being I suppose the IRFU are funding themselves when they are funding the provinces whereas the WRU are funding organisations that have independent owners.

That being said I was under the impression that the WRU have a signifcant amount of money but that it is earmarked for paying off the millenium early. (I could be wrong). Would that money not be better spent funding the regions. If no increase in 9 years is true then it's wrong. What I would say is that whoever is running the regions needs to be accountable too. I watched the Glasgow v Ospreys game and the atmosphere seemed horrific. It's a top of the table clash. They need to take ownership and aim to get people out of their houses and to the games.

The WRU can't afford to run the regions, that's the whole problem and the reason they went down the quasi-regional thing in the first place. If you can't afford to do something yourself then, given the power, you force others (clubs) to do something for you.

I can't see how the WRU could afford to centrally contract all of the players at the regions: 4 of them with, say, 35 players at each (sure there's more than that currently though). They'd have to beat the wages offered by France if they are to keep the top stars, so that's upwards of £350k per annum on each of those lads. Could it be done?

You then have the cost of running the region such as coaching, academies, medical, marketing, Etc but that would be offset somewhat by the revenue generated by ticketing and merchandise, beer and sponsorship. I think the WRU realised very early on that the latter would not make much of a dent in the former (cost of fully setting up, owing and running 4 regions) so they went down the other route of forcing clubs to create teams and run them under WRU parameters (to a certain extent). They essentially told the owners of these businesses that they either cooperated or they had to get out, which is some power. Only in sport!

I agree with Standulstermen to a degree here. The people running the regions for the best part of a decade have to take a lot of responsibility for the fact they've failed to get bums on seats and the fact most of them have failed to maintain playing standards at the level expected.

If the IRFU can afford to run the provinces, why can't the WRU run the Regions? The WRU & IRFU have similiar type of income. In recent times the WRU have being doing better because of winning 2 x Six nations.

Cardiff Blues's worth at the moment is -11.9M. Its owned by Cardiff Athletic Club

Griff wrote:The WRU can't afford to run the regions, that's the whole problem and the reason they went down the quasi-regional thing in the first place. If you can't afford to do something yourself then, given the power, you force others (clubs) to do something for you.

The idea is that the regions would 'run themselves' if managed better.  I'm not saying they are being managed badly but I Am saying that's an argument often used against them by numbers of Welsh posters in this very 606 forum.

Therefore - you have a case whereby some here argue that the current regional owners certainly can't afford to run their respective regions, so where would the difference be in the WRU running things?

At the moment - again according to some Welsh posters themselves - Welsh regional rugby is money being wasted - and some of that money wasted is already WRU money.  They (the WRU) might feel that they are in a sense giving their contributions to a few of those African countries that get charity and government donations, that is then meant to be spent on the needy populations but is instead spent on shoring up the 'leaders'?

If IRFU can run four Provinces in Ireland then certainly WRU can run, at the very least, three in Wales.

And just on this point now that I'm at it.  This idea that does the rounds that somehow a team needs to be 'privately owned' to somehow be more relevant and real to their followers is just not a goer in any logical sense.  Nobody needs to be told how passionate Leinster, Munster and Ulster fans are about their respective individual teams - it's all over the Irish threads in fine nit-picking, bear-baiting detail

So yes - let's have a continuation of 'club' rugby - but 'club' rugby doesn't need private owners to be viable 'club' rugby in every department - money making, academy creating, local business supporting and local/regionalised passionate following.  

The PRL have their agenda, certainly - and are entitled to have their dreams of what could be.  But in promotion of that agenda, to say 'privately owned clubs' are the purest form of 'club' rugby is just hogwash and propaganda from a privately owned group of teams.

Standulstermen wrote:The PRL were ready to take legal action against the erc/unions. Load of talk. Is it true the WRU subsidises the regions to the tune of 4M a year each?

Yep...!

Secret Fly

Answering your questions on funding I agree, I think many posters do also, that the WRU can afford to completely run the regions sinilar to Ireland.

But to do so they have to re-finance the repayments on the MS. The bank would have the final say in whether they are or are not allowed to do that.

maestegmafia wrote:Secret Fly

Answering your questions on funding I agree, I think many posters do also, that the WRU can afford to completely run the regions sinilar to Ireland.

But to do so they have to re-finance the repayments on the MS. The bank would have the final say in whether they are or are not allowed to do that.

not true any more. WRU are almost entirely debt free. funding of the regions is a choice. the relatively poor funding of the regions since early 2000s was initially because financially the WRU had no choice, however now that poor funding is entirely the WRU's choice as the financial situation of the WRU with its super-profitable MS, is 200% different from 10 years ago.

it is a policy to keep the regions weak in an attempt to strengthen the WRU's hold on club rugby at all levels, and implement central contracts and be viewed as sailing to the rescue of the incompetent regions.

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:The PRL were ready to take legal action against the erc/unions. Load of talk. Is it true the WRU subsidises the regions to the tune of 4M a year each?

Yep...!

Do you have a source for this?

.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

Standulstermen wrote:The PRL were ready to take legal action against the erc/unions. Load of talk. Is it true the WRU subsidises the regions to the tune of 4M a year each?

Yep...!

Do you have a source for this?

The latest WRU annual report has something like £16.6M going to regions. £6M is for player release. About £9M is for TV/Sponsorship. The remainder is for the academies I believe. Just search for WRU Annual Report

quinsforever wrote:

it is a policy to keep the regions weak in an attempt to strengthen the WRU's hold on club rugby at all levels, and implement central contracts and be viewed as sailing to the rescue of the incompetent regions.

You of course have documentary proof for what you say Quins...... You do accuse quite a few folks of lying and making things up and not having proof. So look forward to all the lovely top-secret WRU documents streaming my way in your next few posts.

Cripe!
With everything going on, it really seems Rugby might be going down the short road to the sh.tter.

It would be interesting to see what the WRU did re taking over the regions. What price would the owners sell for? If they refused to sell then would the WRU have to form 3 or 4 brand new sides. Who would the fans be? Why didn't they do this in the first place? And would the WRU be granted permission to play in existing stadia or would they have to build their own?! This has the potential to get very messy!

At what point do the IRB step in?

This is a threat to rugby all across Europe and it needs to be addressed. If a club can chose to switch competitions independent of its Union we're on the rocky road to a free market hell where everybody loses but the Chairmen.

Lads, I think big Phil Vickery has a few more years left in him yet. I'd be very surprised if he had somehow managed to retire without any of us noticing.

I guess we could open a 'transfer' market - not just for players - but for teams?
A pre and mid season transfer window between Leagues?  "Toulon, are you absolutely sure you want to stick with Top14 for the full season?  We'd like you to join the Pro12 for the remainder of our season so that we can pick up more pblicity; and we're willing to pay a transfer fee to the LNR."

Don't knock it!!!!!!!!!!!!!  It's European freedom of movement for labour, open market economics and all that jazz

How much is a ticket to an ospreys game? I'm looking at that nearly empty stadium and wondering that to myself. Is price the issue? Is it time slots? 7pm is tight on a Friday night and needs looked at (I think sky may well push this) 

If I'm the WRU I need to know my 4m odd is being spent right before I sink any more money into a region. The IRFU did the same with ulster in that they withheld funds until we got our house in order. Within 4/5 years things have turned around completely and it was sooner in relative terms. 

If I look at the dragons results and how competitive that ospreys B/C sided was for the most part against Glasgow I'm seeing the players. They have the lions and big names. It's about making the regions relevant to the average welsh punter and this is where the regional management more than the WRU are culpable.