Will 2014 see NZ veterans rotated?

The game in Ireland saw Hore bow out of the game. Mealamu, Nonu, Jane, McCaw, Carter, Woodcock and Smith remain who could be considered in that category of experience. McCaw has said in an interview that he's not interested in eking out his test career until 2015. If his form goes or his desire goes, then so does he.

Hansen is not about to get rid of his test veterans. You don't just cast aside such depth in experience so easily. But will we see more a rotation of the key players? Much will depend on the Super season and who puts up their hand there. We might well see rotation already starting then. No doubt Shag has already had a word in Blackadder's ear saying Read is now NZ's most valuable player and must be managed well. We could well see a situation where Cane starts tests and McCaw covers back row against Argentina for example and comes on to cover Read.

Similarly it'll be interesting to see who starts where in Siper rugby. Does Ben Smith move to 13 for the Highlanders or do we see the young Piutau serve an apprenticeship there? If Fruean comes back does Crotty move back to 12 and does he provide cover for Nonu. Or does Taylor still figure among his plans due to his versatility? Savea seems locked in but if you experiment with Piutau does that throw a lifeline to Jane?

The front row seems more straightforward as this rotation has been going on this year but will we see a few more young players thrown into the mix? Already Shag has to be congratulated on how many players he has introduced into the squad and how many of those, just after two years seem established players: Retallick, Smith, Faumuina, Barrett etc. So two years more and there's plenty of time to consolidate and fine tune. I still see a lot of room for growth in the young underbelly of this side. The veterans are a way of bringing out that growth. I get the sense that this is the final phase of the rebuilding and the finishing touches are being made to allow this squad to gel and get those combinations functioning better.

I think this coming season will see Shag keen to see what he has at his disposal in terms of the younger players. Carter won't figure against England to give time for his body to recover so that should see more opportunity given to Cruden and Barrett. Luatua might be given time against Australia and it'll be interesting to see where Kaino figures in Shag's plans given he might be playing at 8 for the Blues. So another possibility is he covers backrow and McCaw either sits out games or rests other players.

It's going to be intriguing to watch how Shag manages this last full season before the RWC. 14 tests is right on the limit if not beyond it already. So player rotation and management will be crucial. NZ want to keep ticking over the wins but they also have to figure out who figures in the plans for 2015 and who needs to be managed carefully to get them there and who needs to be factored in as genuine cover to prepare for the possibility that they do not or get injured. A difficult balance but Hansen has given me confidence that he is very capable of pulling off this juggling act. I would like to see different combinations for England, Oz, SA and Argentina. Not so much to see who our best team is but more to see who our best squad is. In today's game that's what gives you the best chance of winning a World Cup. You can no longer rely on 15 players to get the job done. You need to know your squad can get the job done as they are more likely to cover for most contingencies.

Excellent post  

I am not such a keen follower of NZ rugby (being an Irish fan) but do feel that the AB's have an amazing strength in depth which will allow a lot more squad rotation. I think that we will see that the veterans will be rotated on a regular basis leading up to the RWC. This is something that the AB's (more than any other country) do so seamlessly.

Exciting days ahead for the AB fans.

Cheers Nacho. Certainly don't begrudge you those feelings towards NZ, particularly after that last game.  

In a way NZ and Ireland make for comparison as all too often we hear of the golden generation for Ireland whereas I see quite a young squad coming through and genuine contenders being thrown up. Like NZ there are a few trouble areas but that is the same for any nation.

I don't buy into this argument NZ are on the decline or have no room left for improvement. Perhaps that is true now from a results perspective but certainly not from a performance one. There is a lot of room for improvement as the squad is in a state of constant flux and new players still are hitting their straps. People tend to take out the 100 test veterans and think there's a soft underbelly underneath. For a start the removal of those veterans is premature and it also ignores that the new players are quickly growing their number of caps. Savea was a fringe player two years ago. Now he's making the World XV.

I think we'd have been forced into rotation with at least DC going by his injury rate kia. What's different this time is despite four years between 07 and 11 where we didn't even have an accomplished backup 10 at test level this time we will have two at least with 4-5 years test rugby by 2015. So even if they are playing well, we still have good last minute cover than the cruden Slade Donald option we had in 11. The back 3- forwards and backs have excellent cover already and even both our locks seem to be making best lists.

Hansen's biggest problem may be to stop bringing in ten plus players a year, development of he current squad more critical. Given his tendency star performers may be tempting...and who knows when another iceman or McCaw might be lurking.

He has already hinted Tman that he is happy with his squad of players and it'd be strange to see a new face next year. Interesting tactic as to me it sends a message that you have to wait two years if you want to break into this team and allows players like Nonu and Dagg to fall asleep again in Super rugby. Or maybe he is sending out a message, if you want to break into the NZ squad you have to do something really special so make sure you do the work necessary in the off season to get noticed when the test players are being rested.

That said, I hope that we don't keep trying to play our best 15. Injuries forced Hansen's hand but I think that was a blessing in disguise. 14 games is too many to complement even a well managed Super season. We saw this year you can only get up mentally and physically for a few games a year. To get consistency you need good performances from as wide a range of players as necessary. The more players able to rise to that challenge the better. You don't want to make too many changes as that leads to disjointed performances but you don't want to get fatigue from playing the same players in too many games.

I'm not too big on settling on a core squad two full years out from a world cup. 1987 showed exactly what one season can do and the difference between 86 and 87 sides were chalk and cheese, the iceman exactly the sort of player that made a difference. If the current side is the best we will have in two years then I think the scope for improvement sits better with sides like oz and the boks.

I'd like to think by the time the 15 squad is named 7 or 8 are not yet ABs currently. The right blend of experience and youth cannot happen if this is 95-100 percent of the eventual squad. Sure the 7 or 8 will likely not play the knockouts in a big way but I'd like to think one or two bolters will be there at the business end.

I agree Tman when you consider how many new players have been blooded since 2011 and how many are considered now frontline players. Definitely some competition for places in certain positions would be welcome. 7 or 8 sounds too many but then you factor in a lock, front row, centres and maybe TJ or a wing and you don't count Kaino or a possible SBW return and that seems about right.   

Mealamu, Woodcock and Smith, Conrad Smith i guess is who you are on a bout?

I would think Mealamu, Woodcock would be lucky to be in the 2015 RWC to be honest. Conrad Smith may just scrape through to RWC.

But it is the Players that NZ have coming through to take their places, By the time RWC comes around their will be players that will take over with out detrement to NZ game plan.

Mc Caw and Carter? will they make it? Dont know to be honest. What about Victor Veto? is he still in with a shout of making the 2015 RWC?..Again even if he does not make it will not be any loss to NZ,with the talent pool they have.

You're welcome to read beyond the title maj.   

Vito is in the wilderness at the moment but he's not going anywhere. He's an 8 but unfortunately came on as 6 or 7. Kaino is back and he will be playing 8 for the Blues so he'll have his work cut out for him. McCaw has been playing 8 at times for NZ so he could cover there as well.

There's not yet been a truly successful 'returner' from the type of absence kaino has had, none I can think of come back at least as good as they left, let alone better, so odds are against him. At best he'll have a sharp learning curve and given it took kaino a fair few years to get to where he did I'm not convinced. But being back at an ever improving blues side can't hurt I suppose.
Same with SBW. He's a better league player and one season back is still a risk.

I don't expect McCaw or DC to figure as prominently and McCaw might be better off handing the captaincy to Read to give him best chance to contribute. Mccaws his own worst enemy. He's set his own standard so high he himself may not be able to meet it. He's talking that way presently a little.

Piataus an interesting one. Showed a maturity and instinct on attack well beyond his years. Got to where Ben Smith did at times in the AIs even though its taken Smith many seasons to get to that level of play. Two more years with the Blues and ABs and he could be one of the key players in 15.
Hansen will want to make sure he has the right front row for the new scrum rules and that's his primary focus in 2014 I'd like to think.

Ellison got back into the NZ frame returning from Japan. I don't think there have been many like Kaino who went away in their prime. McAllister wasn't a success but was he ever one in a black shirt. Kaino for my mind was the best player in terms of consistency in 2011. It won't be easy adjusting but that's not a bad coaching set up to give him advice. If he had come back to the Blues of last year Id be more inclined to agree with you. But just because we haven't had a good returning prodigal son doesn't mean we won't ever. I agree it will be a huge ask and probably why he negotiated a get out clause but when you've proven you can foot it with the best I don't think you necessarily forget that process. Look at Nonu. Went to Japan and played non stop rugby and was dire at Super level and was reborn in black. I'm not expecting Kaino back next year in black but I wouldn't write him off at 2015. He will need to physically readjust but now he can start that process. Feed up on the taro!

Can't believe NZ never gave Ranger a chance, he was one of the players of the Super Rugby tournament, if not the player. I'd loved to have seen him line up in the NZ midfield.

Oh and when/is Sonny Bill coming back?

SBW is back with the Chiefs in 2015. I like Ranger as well and he matured into a leader with the Blues/ Northland. I'd like to think he's still in the mix but its very congested and he's done more than his time waiting on the bench. Its more about family for RR but hopefully he gets his chances. Not even sure if hes back with the Blues next year or two? Theyre in training soon so who knows...

NZ don't rush players in, they have to be patient. Ranger wasn't. And just as his form demanded selection, he made himself unavailable by leaving.

NZ's problem will be in finding a competitive front row. We're weak at hooker, and out propping resources need development.

It'll be a big super season for the forward in general, with a highly competitive second row and loose positions up for grabs.

We have there complete back lines at the moment, and despite lacking a genuine world class backup to Conrad smith, selections can largely be made on form.

Looking out to the 2015 World Cup, maybe only South Africa are better placed.

I would say the only generalisation you can make for NZ is that we have a lot of talent always moving through. Sometimes people take a while to make the grade eg B Smith, R Ranger and others just shoot straight in eg J Savea, A Smith.

We have few positions that need shoring up.
I think we need to look past Woodcock and Crockett to be honest. Woodcock just getting tired and Crockett not quite up to it.
We need more competition at hooker, Mealamu getting on and Coles looking mobile but not doing the tough stuff enough.
Tighthead we probably have enough. With Ben Afeaki, Jeff Toomaga-Allen being added to the squad we're probably okay for the future.
Locks I think we're mostly okay. Sam is a star and he's young, Retallick just keeps going and Romano is probably ahead of him. Thrush is a bit weak for the ABs really but if we can replace him then we have 4 good locks.
For the loose forwards I think we have enough people coming through, returning and options.
Messam, McCaw, Read backed up by Cane, Luatua, Todd, Kaino, Vito, Whitelock means we'll be alright there.
9 - I still believe Perenara will be the starting half back come WC time. Smith will be the reserve.
10 - Barrett will start at the WC, Cruden will be the reserve, Taylor will be third and Carter will be in Japan.
11 - Savea
12 - Nonu and SBW but this is a problem area
13 - Smith will start but he will be past his best. Crotty will be given more time but won't be as good.
14 - Piatua will take over this position
15 - Dagg will continue to be the best here
I'm not sure if Sail i will make it as an AB. More chance that Crotty will become our midfield cover of 12/13 and be an adequate AB. Poor old Ben Smith will probably end up as the sub covering centre, wing and full back.
So I expect, Woodcock, Mealamu, Carter, Jane to not be there come WC time with only some chance that McCaw, Nonu and C Smith will be there.
The only big problem area is the mid field where we really don't have true quality putting their hand up. We're relying on SBW to come back and for Crotty, Saili, Taylor to step up a level.

No newbies though ngan. Still think there's a bolter or two out there next two years if you look at the number in the last two. Every prop and hooker in the country will be salivating at the chance of a 2015 spot and those likely will be out doing the miles as we speak for per season.

Do NZ fans feel that by going abroad the likes of Kahui and Ranger have passed up a prime chance to stake a claim to the 13 jersey with Smith likely to need resting, rotating or replacing in the near future? Both are excellent players who provide classy options on the wing or outside centre.

Ranger especially I'm thinking of there as prior to his Montpellier move I was very interested in seeing 11.Savea 12.Nonu 13.Ranger 14.Smith 15.Dagg in the AI's. That's a backline with a hell of a lot of power and skill.

Hosea Gear could be added to that list as well you could argue. He may be behind Savea, Piutau and Smith as wingers but a player of his calibre would surely merit a place in the squad?

KC That's why the likes of Ranger and Gear are overseas. They were on the fringe and had a mixture of good and average performances in black. They both left when a vacancy opened up. You could argue NZ let Gear slip through their fingers but you could just as well argue the players who replaced him are a step up. I don't think he'd be in the current squad simply because places are limited and there are better players ahead of him. Gear was devastating in space but in a tight game was found incapable of forcing the gaps.

Ranger tried to get out of his contract as he was a prime takeover for the 13 spot. You have to be patient though and bide your time. He made a call for his family and I don't begrudge him that just as Kaino did. He'd definitely be in the squad so that's unfortunate but the policy of not picking overseas players is the correct one for NZ. As regards to Kahui, his body broke and so he went to Japan to get some money out of his career. Certainly don't have a problem with that either, but if fit he'd definitely be a contender at 13 and ahead of Ranger.

Yeah Gear suffered from low work rate in tight games. He relied on getting chances too much. Pity about Kahui cos when at 100% could have been even too much for Conrad for his power and pace alone. One AB career we've all missed out on due to injury.

Its also only a few weeks before we see Benji and kaino out for the blues so that's going to be exciting. Two years to the world cup is a very long time in a rugby sense and a lot will happen...its just a matter of...to who...or for who?

For that reason I see much more talent being added...purely because they simply can't be ignored. Every sxv player will be putting his hand up over the next two seasons. Watch this space I say.

And for that reason Hansen will be keen to try them out which means rotation here and there of players to test those new players. If some like Woodcock are on their last legs then you want to know about alternatives. Some like Conrad have to be managed so you try out players in games where you think you can experiment.

Yep.And unfortunately luck with injuries plays a massive part of winning these days...DC a prime example. How he's managed it I don't know but Conrad smith has done well given his role. ...touch wood...

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:And for that reason Hansen will be keen to try them out which means rotation here and there of players to test those new players. If some like Woodcock are on their last legs then you want to know about alternatives. Some like Conrad have to be managed so you try out players in games where you think you can experiment.

Look, I'm sorry but I need to correct you on something here. It's not "Woodcock". That's like saying "Liz" when you mean "Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth" if you're talking about the chances of an abdication.

The correct phrase (and I've checked this against previous world cup winners) is "world cup winner and world cup final try scorer, Tony Woodcock".  Please can you ensure you keep with protocol in future posts?

Ta.

GE.

examples of usage:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22918746
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-1297746/Jason-Robinson-comes-retirement--England-rugby-union-World-Cup-hero-signs-Fylde.html
http://www.voice-online.co.uk/article/final-whistle-world-cup-winner
http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,3551_8928613,00.html
http://www.express.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/385402/Jason-Robinson-thinks-Stuart-Lancaster-s-England-need-to-toughen-up

Sorry GE I should've said Woody. Cue jokes for Woodcock.

Woody needs Viagra to hold his form until 2015.

Woody keeps going down in the front row. It's freaking out the people behind.

Woody needs to harden up and not get so soft in his old age.

Woody blurted out something he shouldn't have there and the ref took an instant dislike to it.

On the initial thread heading itself:

The Veterans will certainly hope so!  

If you can't trust some of the other guys then people question how well founded the well oiled AB machine really is.  You have to trust it or you might not really believe it when the veterans really do go.

Taylorman wrote:No newbies though ngan. Still think there's a bolter or two out there next two years if you look at the number in the last two. Every prop and hooker in the country will be salivating at the chance of a 2015 spot and those likely will be out doing the miles as we speak for per season.

Well I think people like Toomaga Allan, Crotty, Saili, Piatau, baby Savea, Afeaki are newbies really.

Who's that prop from somewhere down South who got an All Blacks call up and had never been to a test match before? Played about a game and a half for someone? I reckon he'll be huge this year.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:KC That's why the likes of Ranger and Gear are overseas. They were on the fringe and had a mixture of good and average performances in black. They both left when a vacancy opened up. You could argue NZ let Gear slip through their fingers but you could just as well argue the players who replaced him are a step up. I don't think he'd be in the current squad simply because places are limited and there are better players ahead of him. Gear was devastating in space but in a tight game was found incapable of forcing the gaps.

Ranger tried to get out of his contract as he was a prime takeover for the 13 spot. You have to be patient though and bide your time. He made a call for his family and I don't begrudge him that just as Kaino did. He'd definitely be in the squad so that's unfortunate but the policy of not picking overseas players is the correct one for NZ. As regards to Kahui, his body broke and so he went to Japan to get some money out of his career. Certainly don't have a problem with that either, but if fit he'd definitely be a contender at 13 and ahead of Ranger.

Interesting the point yourself and Taylorman make about Gear being unable to force holes so found wanting despite his devastating finishing and running in space. Not wanting to turn the attention of this to England's side but a view to being more ruthless like that when players don't reach the necessary standards in the backline could reap rich rewards!

As for Kahui I didn't realise his shoulder was that bad. I was labouring under the impression that he was looking to return to NZ after ensuring the shoulder had healed properly in the less intense games in Japan. Reading up more now it's very sad to see yet another player in that sort of position with injury. Happens far too often now and he was looking one hell of a player back in 2011.

At risk of fawning but the likes of Gear and Ranger being on the fringes really does highlight the talent NZ have in the backline especially. You can argue all of the below would make it into many international sides around the world:

Savea, Smith, Piutua, Jane, Gear, Ranger, Guildford ... Sivivatu as well could still challenge for a place in many sides

GloriousEmpire wrote:Who's that prop from somewhere down South who got an All Blacks call up and had never been to a test match before? Played about a game and a half for someone? I reckon he'll be huge this year.

GE youd be talking about Joe Moody (from Wellington) who watched his first rugby test from the bench, trouble is hes gone and broken his leg.

Yeah that was a shame. Last match of the item wasn't it. Of all the things to happen just before you're about to start an AB career. Some just don't have the luck. Hopefully he'll get a second chance.

Joe Moody is a crusader he got injured so Toomaga Allen (Hurricane) got called up with about 1 days notice that he needed to fly. Had to tell his wife that their overseas holiday was cancelled. I've met him. BIG bugger - very nice chap.