3rd Ashes Test, Perth

by Stella Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

Western Australia next, which means staying up even later to watch the start of the third test.

You would think Perth is one place the Aussies should win, so what do we do?

Panic, and drop Swann, but leave Monty in? Or perhaps play four or five seamers? Has Stokes done enough? He showed plenty of attitude, so yes, he probably has.

Has Prior done enough to see him promoted to six, as Stokes isn't one..............yet? Maybe not but we have to try and win, and playing him at six, would enable us to play five bowlers again, with Monty dropping out.

Who comes in? Finn, the 90mph quickie, with a strike rate around 50? Reliable Tim? Just coming back from injury but will give 100%, won't get smacked around, and can bat a bit. Or rankin? This would be the biggest gamble imo, as he has no test experience.

My team:

Cook
Carberry
Root
Pietersen
Bell
Prior
Stokes
Broad
Swann
Finn
Anderson

by Nachos Jones Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:55 pm

alfie wrote:
Nachos Jones wrote:
alfie wrote:
Nachos Jones wrote:I more think that its the tactics that have cost England this series. Back in the day, England would counter attack when on the back foot (last series in OZ) but now they seem to be trying to contain the opposition batters with defensive bowling and more trying to protect their wickets which goes against the grain of some of the more flair playing team members that England have.

Don't know about that. They were virtually never on the back foot last time here (except in the Perth Test ). And a lot of the bowling plan in that series also revolved around pressuring the batsmen out with sustained tight bowling.
The trouble is , this time the top order batting is just failing , whereas last time round they were always 150/1.
Tactics are irrelevant when your best batsmen are all in the horrors.

I remember that they were on the backfoot a couple of times but produced wonderful counter attacking cricket. Session cricket that won them tests. They have not done this, this series and I do believe that comes from the negative tactics deployed. I could, of course, be way off the mark but that's what it appears to be to me.

Nitpicking perhaps , but with a little research :Adelaide: Aust 245 , England lost Strauss early but the second wicket didn't fall until 176 , and the third at 351. Melbourne Aust 98 , England opening stand of 159 ...Perhaps in Sydney , where England lost five in overhauling the Australian280 ? But the Aussies were pretty well cooked by then...I don't think there was too much back foot there.
The key innings was probably the second in Brisbane : but again , it was a big opening stand that set that up.
I really think the main difference is the England 1-2-3. All else has followed from that.

Maybe its just my memory that has failed me then but I certainly remember that England had to dig themselves out sometimes. My point being, that England used to be very good at counter attacking session cricket and that has deserted them of late and I believe that is more to do with the tactics and game plan more than the players. Such negative tactics can really affect a sides confidence and moral.

by KP_fan Sun Dec 15, 2013 7:57 pm

a good day for Shane Watson to get some runs minus any pressures and with England already on the ropes

by guildfordbat Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:00 pm

Linebreaker wrote:50 runs up for Rogers. Nice to see him score a few more Test runs.

Rogers is very highly regarded and respected in the English county game. He's put in some hard yards there and deserves reward late on in his career.

by CaledonianCraig Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:00 pm

I think the players that England will look for replacements are opener to play alongside Cook. Carberry has done very well but you always felt he was a stop gap as he is now well into his 30's. Options there are to look at Compton again but he is no spring chicken so how about Sam Robson?

They need to make a definitive choice on the No.3 slot - either Root or Bell. In the bowling department they need to consider that Anderson and Swann are both now in their 30's and should now be earmarking who will replace them.

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:01 pm

Linebreaker wrote:
alfie wrote:Warner gone at last for an aggressive century. Some fine hitting : but I don't think nearly as significant for his team than the fast starts he has given them in first innings efforts , even though he never went on that far.
Sorry if it seems a bit mean spirited ; but while I salute his selfless aggression in the cause of moving the game forward , I reckon second innings runs in this situation are a bit "soft" . And he had some large slices of luck.
Great to watch , though.

Oh come on Alfie.
How would you like a knock on your door from Candice Falzon asking you to elaborate on your comment on Davie's behalf?

Yeah I know . I did say it seemed mean : but I stand by the comment , which wasn't really meant to be negative.
I think Warner's first innings efforts have been very important in getting Australia quick runs ; setting England's bowlers back on their heels , so that even when quick wickets fell there were still decent runs on the board for the Clarkes and Haddins and Smiths to build on , instead of being 95/5...I think his role in those games has been generally underrated.

This innings was spectacular: but it was more like mugging an old age pensioner...

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:04 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:I think the players that England will look for replacements are opener to play alongside Cook. Carberry has done very well but you always felt he was a stop gap as he is now well into his 30's. Options there are to look at Compton again but he is no spring chicken so how about Sam Robson?

They need to make a definitive choice on the No.3 slot - either Root or Bell. In the bowling department they need to consider that Anderson and Swann are both now in their 30's and should now be earmarking who will replace them.

Alex Lees is a name to watch for the openers spot

by **Good Golly I'm Olly** Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:07 pm

Oh and if someone would kindly break David Warner's face I think we all agree it'd be great fun to watch

by Guest Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:08 pm

well played Dave Warner however the guy is a seriously loose cannon and the celebration at Prior wasnt needed...im suprised at the sedate start from Clarke given the game situation..

by CaledonianCraig Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:10 pm

To their credit England have kept going and cut back the run rate. In these conditions and with their best bowler out injured that is a decent effort all things considered.

by guildfordbat Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:13 pm

Warner's dismissal has inevitably slowed the scoring rate and might put Australia's eventual declaration back by half an hour but it's still all surely just a matter of time .... very depressing.

by **Pal Joey** Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:15 pm

Olly wrote:Oh and if someone would kindly break David Warner's face I think we all agree it'd be great fun to watch

Ryan Harris did his best in the nets on Thursday. The Thug managed to duck his head out of the way just in time. censored

by Nachos Jones Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:20 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Warner's dismissal has inevitably slowed the scoring rate and might put Australia's eventual declaration back by half an hour but it's still all surely just a matter of time .... very depressing.

I still don't think that the Aussies will declare until Lunch tomorrow. They will want the match done tomorrow.

by Dorothy_Mantooth Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:20 pm

Wonder how long it will be before the "playing too much cricket" excuse is rolled out as they try and explain this calamitous tour?

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:28 pm

guildfordbat wrote:Warner's dismissal has inevitably slowed the scoring rate and might put Australia's eventual declaration back by half an hour but it's still all surely just a matter of time .... very depressing.

Unfortunately it has probably been a matter of time since the coin came down tails on Friday...

Not that the toss always decides matches : but when you have been battered in successive games and are playing in the most alien conditions of the trip you probably need a break or two to go your way. Once Australia batted ...confident as they were ...it was always going to be hard work.

Actually think England battled well for two days. But the pressure told today.

Perhaps now the Ashes are decided , Melbourne might offer a more even contest. Won't have the same edge to it , of course. But I'll still be going .

by CaledonianCraig Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:29 pm

Odd batting this though. I'd be expecting a far more aggressive approach now from Clarke and co.

by guildfordbat Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:30 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:To their credit England have kept going and cut back the run rate. In these conditions and with their best bowler out injured that is a decent effort all things considered.

Craig - take your point about Broad today. Also, throughout the rest of this series, the near abysmal England batting in every first innings whch has made life difficult for the England bowlers - consequently, little rest and always being faced with an uphill battle second time round.

However, I do feel that posters have generally been overly sympathetic to the England bowling second time round throughout this series. Whilst it hasn't been the major cause of our problems (and, as I say above, there have been understandable difficulties attached to it), it has never properly challenged the Australian batsmen and looked like wrestling things back or even stemming the tide.

And just to show that when things are against you ... Swann is now off the field.

by Duty281 Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:34 pm

If there's one thing I've learnt about cricket, from pulling out my Brisbane 2010 and 1981 DVDs, it's there is never a lost cause, and never a moment when you should surrender meekly.

And if there's one thing that marks England as a race, and a people, it's the dogged determination to never, never, never give in. Never.

Not done yet. Not while we have 10 wickets to play with.

On another note, barman, can I have another scotch? This is the worst I've seen England play for...oh must be about 7 years.

by CaledonianCraig Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:35 pm

No I agree the bowling has not been of the standard that you'd come to expect. Anderson has been subdued as has Swann by their standards. Only Broad has delivered and the back up bowlers have not been at the races either. So bowling has been around 25% efficiency whilst the batting has been at about 10% efficiency.

Well done Stokes who bowls Clarke.

by guildfordbat Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:37 pm

Nachos Jones wrote:
guildfordbat wrote:Warner's dismissal has inevitably slowed the scoring rate and might put Australia's eventual declaration back by half an hour but it's still all surely just a matter of time .... very depressing.

I still don't think that the Aussies will declare until Lunch tomorrow. They will want the match done tomorrow.

I think the declaration will come around lunchtime. Possibly about 30 minutes before, so as to give England an initial awkward 20 minutes at the crease.

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:40 pm

Trouble is though , guildford , the batting has been so awful the bowlers have been on a hiding to nothing : a long way behind , and thrust back out in the field rather quickly after their first innings efforts.

I thought in Brisbane Cook was a little too keen to protect his main bowlers from overwork - way too much of Root , for instance. Perhaps a bit accepting of defeat ?

In this innings , I thought Anderson bowled well early , for no reward , and Swann started beautifully , only to be let down by the keeper. That and the drop off Anderson a little later just about sucked all the life out of them. Yet as Craig says , they have battled it out since Warner went.

It ain't easy when you know you have no hope ...hard enough for us just watching : try playing in this heat Smile

by guildfordbat Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:42 pm

CaledonianCraig wrote:No I agree the bowling has not been of the standard that you'd come to expect. Anderson has been subdued as has Swann by their standards. Only Broad has delivered and the back up bowlers have not been at the races either. So bowling has been around 25% efficiency whilst the batting has been at about 10% efficiency.

Well done Stokes who bowls Clarke.

Yes, a very good ball. Seemed to nip back a bit at some pace. Stokes is a much better and faster bowler than I appreciated. He does though need to watch that front foot very carefully - so very nearly a no ball as he bowled Clarke.

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:42 pm

Good to see Stokes with a wicket . Well bowled , and keeps Clarke waiting for 8000 ?

by **Pal Joey** Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:51 pm

I think he's saving his 8000th run for you at the MCG, alfie. I think he needs about 13 more runs? (7940 + 24 +23) He's already won the ICC Player and Test Player of the Year this week don't forget. clap

Duty, I'll raise you my 1989-2005 Ashes box set. Dear oh dear oh dear...

Barman... another round for my friend over there!

by CaledonianCraig Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:51 pm

I would have kept Stokes on there. Getting movement and troubling the batsmen. Anderson replaces him and doesn't have the same effect really.

by Duty281 Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:54 pm

Linebreaker wrote:I think he's saving his 8000th run for you at the MCG, alfie. I think he needs about 13 more runs? (7940 + 24 +23) He's already won the ICC Player and Test Player of the Year this week don't forget.

Duty, I'll raise you my 1989-2005 Ashes box set. Dear oh dear oh dear...

Barman... another round for my friend over there!

I wonder if there's a Johannesbourg 1995 DVD around anywhere? Maybe Cardiff 2009?

by guildfordbat Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:55 pm

alfie wrote:Trouble is though , guildford , the batting has been so awful the bowlers have been on a hiding to nothing : a long way behind , and thrust back out in the field rather quickly after their first innings efforts.

I thought in Brisbane Cook was a little too keen to protect his main bowlers from overwork - way too much of Root , for instance. Perhaps a bit accepting of defeat ?

In this innings , I thought Anderson bowled well early , for no reward , and Swann started beautifully , only to be let down by the keeper. That and the drop off Anderson a little later just about sucked all the life out of them. Yet as Craig says , they have battled it out since Warner went.

It ain't easy when you know you have no hope ...hard enough for us just watching : try playing in this heat

Alfie - but ... Test cricket ain't meant to be easy. Wink

I'm not really slating the bowlers second time round (throughout the series) but pointing out that no one has ever been able to eccel and properly stem (let alone turn) the tide. Not majorly surprising perhaps but still a little disappointing.

The batting is the major problem but that shouldn't mean we're acceptive of all the bowling come what may.

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:56 pm

Stokes is the big plus (the only plus ?) from this tour so far.

He looks like a bowling prospect. Not yet sold on his batting. I know a lot of people are seeing him as a six and fifth bowler , but I think right now he'd be better employed batting 7 or 8 and maybe becoming a better version of Bresnan ? With a view to moving up later.

What an awful review ! Symbolic of all that is going wrong - all England 's reviews are failing , where once they were brilliant at judging them.

by **Pal Joey** Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:58 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Linebreaker wrote:I think he's saving his 8000th run for you at the MCG, alfie. I think he needs about 13 more runs? (7940 + 24 +23) He's already won the ICC Player and Test Player of the Year this week don't forget.

Duty, I'll raise you my 1989-2005 Ashes box set. Dear oh dear oh dear...

Barman... another round for my friend over there!

I wonder if there's a Johannesbourg 1995 DVD around anywhere? Maybe Cardiff 2009?

The cheating Test you mean? ha ha.

So, it looks like 32-31 coming up shortly. Or 136-105. A nice little buffer there.

We'll expect an England comeback in around 2029 if the historical trend continues.

by CaledonianCraig Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:59 pm

Australia close on 235 for 3 with a lead of 369 runs. If, as suggested, Australia look for a lead around 500 then I can't see them declaring before lunch tomorrow. No real rush in any case as is plenty of time left in the match.

by mystiroakey Sun Dec 15, 2013 8:59 pm

when the batting is so bad it creates pressure on the bowlers

but the major problem is not the players we have its something larger. Its our collective aura and attitude. We are depressed out there. Test cricket has hit us- no one wants to be there any more.

We need a break- next test i suggest we play a new team bar root and stokes.. just send the rest home- it wont happen but we would have hungry players

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:02 pm

True guildford , the bowling has been short of what was needed. I am inclined to be more concerned about the first innings though. I have seen a lot of these situations over the years , often involving very good bowling attacks.
And very rarely have I seen a team turn a Test around in Australia once they have batted second and conceded a substantial lead.
The other way around , yes. But whether it be the home team or the tourists , if you bat second and trail by 150-200 , you're dead.

by **Pal Joey** Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:05 pm

The danger with that, mysti, is that there could well be another 5-0 whitewash.
(That would be the second in 7 years, right Duty?)

If Broad's foot is broken (hope not but the signs don't look good) then England will be forced to make that change. I'd leave Carberry there (best scorer so far for England).

I'd shuffle the order. Bell 3, Root 6. Bring in Ballance for KP perhaps? I know you don't like Prior but that would be too much change in my opinion.

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:05 pm

Linebreaker wrote:I think he's saving his 8000th run for you at the MCG, alfie. I think he needs about 13 more runs? (7940 + 24 +23) He's already won the ICC Player and Test Player of the Year this week don't forget.

Duty, I'll raise you my 1989-2005 Ashes box set. Dear oh dear oh dear...

Barman... another round for my friend over there!

And I'll happily applaud it , lb . I like Clarke.

Though as someone once said about another great Australian batsman : I hope to see a Clarke (Trumper) century ...in an Australian score of 143 all out Smile

by Duty281 Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:11 pm

Linebreaker wrote:The danger with that, mysti, is that there could well be another 5-0 whitewash.
(That would be the second in 7 years, right Duty?)

If Broad's foot is broken (hope not but the signs don't look good) then England will be forced to make that change. I'd leave Carberry there (best scorer so far for England).

I'd shuffle the order. Bell 3, Root 6. Bring in Ballance for KP perhaps? I know you don't like Prior but that would be too much change in my opinion.

5-0, you're having a laugh!

You haven't even won the series yet, my good fellow. You still have to prise 10 English wickets out in the high heat of Perth, whilst defending a small-ish *cough* target.

England will come good soon enough. Interesting to note that all of England's batsman are due a big score at the same time.... #churchilliancook #allyoucaneatcarberry #digforvictory #englishnuts #thebelltolls #stokeonvictory #priorformdontmatter #reliabletim #broadshots #swannlake #burnleysbrianlara

by **Pal Joey** Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:12 pm

As long as we get past 98 in the 1st innings... Smile

I some ways this series has been even more successful than 2006/7 to date. Back then there was "Amazing Adelaide" and there had already been a few centuries from your batsmen. Hopefully, the Perth Test will again seal this Ashes series for us like in 2006.

Love it Duty! Laugh

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:14 pm

Don't bank on another sixteen year reign , lb.

A lot of the heavy lifting in this series has come from players nearer their end than their beginning : Haddin , Johnson , Harris ...and Clarke.
Warner and Smith are the only young batsmen in that side . And although the bowlers seem to be well covered by currently injured prospects , I wouldn't be too sure that the defence in England in a year or so will be as routine as the nineties...in fact I suspect we could be in for a bit of back and forth for a change...

by mystiroakey Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:15 pm

its going to be 5-0 anyway

To be honest i could see a new team giving us more chance claiming a draw.

lets just send them home, after the series get rid of every coach we have and start again..

the big names can come back when there minds have been healed.

lets give them a break.

by mystiroakey Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:17 pm

The worst thing aboutr this test is that we should have had a thriller - where two teams met on quality and form..

england on the way down and aus on the way up- we should have been equal- this could have been the test series of test series.

but it wasn't, England have hit a wall. you wont get anything more out of them until they get home and have a chillax and then come back

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:19 pm

Apologies to Duty , as I have given up this match(shame ! ) but I admire his spirit. clap

I won't accept a whitewash though. Getting 5-0 by Warne , McGrath etc is one thing ; but to Warner , Johnson ? Watson Shocked

Unacceptable .

Better get it right for Melbourne or I'll be reaching for the Service Revolver...

by mystiroakey Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:21 pm

Accept it alfie, its over, if you want to dream- dream for bad weather

by kingraf Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:22 pm

I'm very interested as to when Clarke will declare. He was in the Aussie side that lost quite handily to South Africa in Perth, having set them 414. I think, 2-0 up, he won't dice this. But he is Clarke, he who declares when the team is still behind... You have to think he tells Smith and Watson to flay for an hour or so.

by kingraf Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:24 pm

Warner has been absolutely brilliant at breaking the camel's back, so to speak. His second innings efforts have been superb in terms of mentally finishing the English.

by mystiroakey Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:25 pm

"!But he is Clarke, he who declares when the team is still behind"

he hasn't done that v england, he left it to late in the summer which could have cost australia a win.

He seems to allways declare to late

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:27 pm

mystiroakey wrote:The worst thing aboutr this test is that we should have had a thriller - where two teams met on quality and form..

england on the way down and aus on the way up- we should have been equal- this could have been the test series of test series.

but it wasn't, England have hit a wall. you wont get anything more out of them until they get home and have a chillax and then come back

Yes that close series is what I have missed, roakey. I expected this one to be a real battle - even after the Brisbane disaster I fancied an England comeback and a close series. But Adelaide destroyed all that...

Still as I have pointed out before , England always lose the Ashes in a landslide. At least we can look forward to a tight struggle when they win them back in a year or two at home Smile

by Duty281 Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:29 pm

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/engine/current/match/63701.html

England set 479 to win in 165 overs successfully bat out a draw.

Look how much better England's batting is now than it was then.
Look how much worse the current Australian bowling attack is than this South African one.

Why can't England save this? Still a decent pitch, truth be told. A couple of cracks yes, but England have faced down better spinners than Lyon.

by msp83 Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:30 pm

An agonizing couple of days for England in store, perhaps they'll get it all over by tomorrow.

by mystiroakey Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:31 pm

Duty mate you cant just flip a switch , the only chance we have is if clarke declares to late again.

clarke should off course declare after 1 hour tomorrow, if he leaves it till lunch we will have a sniff.

but dont expect that to give our team momentum for the next test. it wont we are still mentally shot

by **Pal Joey** Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:31 pm

Raf, your SA team was considerably much stronger opposition than this England side. There's a lot more breathing space this time. Don't worry - he won't stuff it up this time.

Anything over 450 runs should do it - half an hour before lunch tomorrow in other words.

The players still have to do some Christmas shopping don't forget!

by alfie Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:32 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Accept it alfie, its over, if you want to dream- dream for bad weather

Bad weather is actually predicted , roakey , believe it or not Smile

But no : I really do not think there has been such a change in four months that these teams are now so far apart as to preclude England getting it right at least once. I am expecting a win in Melbourne zen

by Duty281 Sun Dec 15, 2013 9:36 pm

mystiroakey wrote:Duty mate you cant just flip a switch , the only chance we have is if clarke declares to late again.

clarke should off course declare after 1 hour tomorrow, if he leaves it till lunch we will have a sniff.

but dont expect that to give our team momentum for the next test. it wont we are still mentally shot

You can flip a switch though. Look how Australia have transformed in a few short months.

You just need something to go your way, just an ounce of luck, and then one short hour sees happiness from utter desolation grow.

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