3rd Ashes Test, Perth

First topic message reminder :

Western Australia next, which means staying up even later to watch the start of the third test.

You would think Perth is one place the Aussies should win, so what do we do?

Panic, and drop Swann, but leave Monty in? Or perhaps play four or five seamers? Has Stokes done enough? He showed plenty of attitude, so yes, he probably has.

Has Prior done enough to see him promoted to six, as Stokes isn't one..............yet? Maybe not but we have to try and win, and playing him at six, would enable us to play five bowlers again, with Monty dropping out.

Who comes in? Finn, the 90mph quickie, with a strike rate around 50? Reliable Tim? Just coming back from injury but will give 100%, won't get smacked around, and can bat a bit. Or rankin? This would be the biggest gamble imo, as he has no test experience.

My team:

Cook
Carberry
Root
Pietersen
Bell
Prior
Stokes
Broad
Swann
Finn
Anderson

kingraf wrote:Warner has been absolutely brilliant at breaking the camel's back, so to speak. His second innings efforts have been superb in terms of mentally finishing the English.

Yes , he has. But at the risk of incurring criticism for not giving full credit (refer earlier conversation with Linebreaker    ) I never rate second innings from a position of strength as highly as the real , tough , first innings stuff.
The man has had an excellent series , whatever. Still don't like him , but he has done very well.

It last rained in Perth in 1929.   

I'd hate to be batting last on that track. I'm pretty sure I saw the other side of the San Andreas Fault there this afternoon.

Does anyone know whether Shane Warne found his phone?

yes we can also flip that switch in a few months- not whilst we are still out in Aus.

mystiroakey wrote:yes we can also flip that switch in a few months- not whilst we are still out in Aus.

Just a temporary power fault, normal service will be resumed shortly.

alfie wrote:True guildford , the bowling has been short of what was needed.  I am inclined to be more concerned about the first innings though. ...

Alfie - yes, you're right to flag our bowling in the first innings. Too regularly during this series we've been in a promising position on day one only to let it slip against the Australian late middle order and tail.

there are two hopes .

1. cook, root and kp fire in the same innings- they could potentially get 500 between them anywhere against anyone- all 3 are so mentally strong that they can flip the switch- the rest havent got the mental ability or technical ability or both.

2. the Aussies lose there minds.

3. Bell chips in with a century or 2.

Have been some great rearguard actions in Perth. Mark Greatbatch for NZ ?

But it is hard to see England - who really look beaten at the moment - summoning enough spirit to even last whatever Clarke leaves them to bat on Monday.

I have some sympathy for them : nothing has gone their way. Three tosses lost. Trott pulling out , throwing the batting order into disarray at the worst time. Seemingly all the close calls ( Stokes no ball "wicket" , Root on the wrong end of DRS , even fairly speculative Australian reviews being successful ) ; but this is what always happens when one team gets on top. Three years ago it was Australia who overstepped when they might have had a wicket ...and in truth much of the damage is self-inflicted. Vital catches dropped , crucial wickets thrown away.
Australia are well worth the 3-0 lead they are about to take. They have thoroughly earned it. Does this mean I think they are massively superior to England in terms of ability ? No. If this were being played in England I strongly doubt we'd see this scoreline or anything like it , and even here it is more a team on a massive roll than a perfect team that is winning. But that doesn't matter.
Australia are in command , and England can only battle as hard as they can tomorrow ; and when the inevitable comes , swallow their disappointment and resolve to treat Melbourne as the start of a come back for future series...much as Australia did Old Trafford a few months ago.

Bell on his own isn't enough and he only performs when others fail..

When other top order batsman play well he goes into a shell.

Him and trott together, that's a good mix in tight situations were we need to put a long stand in.

I suppose the thought that Cook , KP and Bell are all theoretically capable of double centuries is the only thing that would stop Clarke declaring very early tomorrow. (He still might)

Cracks look fearsome ; but in Perth they often are more bark than bite. I remember Australia batting long to save a Test -against England - in the eighties. Boon and Jones , was it ?

But realistically , England haven't looked like batting 150 overs in this series. In both innings , if I want to be cruel !

A long stand is on this pitch is very possible.

But it's an odds game..

England need 3 of the top 5 to put in 100's

The odds on that when you are playing well is 10/1

England at the mo the odds are about 70/1

The quality is there. Long term I see no Doom and gloom. Short term we haven't got the mental minerals.

If, as looks most likely, Australia declare tomorrow with a lead of say 500 with around 140 overs left of the match I reckon England should only look to play it one way. They should look to be ultra-positive and look to score and keep the scoreboard ticking over. Even if they don't think they can chase it down it far outweighs the other option. There is no way on Earth they will survive 140 overs looking to defend - this England side at the moment lack the discipline or stickability to do that. Play to survive and they will be bowled out for 200 by lunch on Tuesday. Play attacking stuff, get some pride and confidence back and go down fighting and be bowled out by tea on Tuesday for 400 - I know which scenario would be far more palitable.

Yes the players need to play naturally to have any chance.

Kp is the perfect example here. He gets blasted for not caring (truth is he does) when he fails to get of to a good start by playing aggressively, he then comes back and plays defensive and then when he steps up to play a shot still gets out because he is frustrated.

This is what happens when you are not mentally there. You can't play naturally.

I can not see this changing without time off.

Not sure England are capable of a long stand batting last, mysti.

The cracks will be even worse tomorrow and when Australia finally declare it will be the usual painfully slow scoring from England you'd imagine. I just can't see them ticking the scoreboard over for any sustainable length of time. On the other hand, going for the draw will also prove fatal.

The chances of 3 of the top 5 scoring 100s? Pretty much zero I'd say. Cook and Bell are your best chances. KP just doesn't look right. Root and Carberry are capable of putting on a brave fight for a while but I can't see either of those two rewriting history at the WACA.

No they are not , but on form yes I would give them a 10/1 shot. Which is still not a big chance but a chance none the less

I see what you mean.   

When was the turning point in this match do you think? On the media here they are really getting stuck into Prior.

Mitch's 'mark' to get rid of KP yesterday was one of those moments which must have lifted our team. Very few players could have pulled that one off.

Big knock for Watson tomorrow (no matter when Clarke declares). With respect to the English, this is over as a series, so my eyes now look to the S.A. vs Australia series in Feb. I'm not sure if Australia has revived, or England have floundered beyond recognition, or maybe it's a combination of both. The truth is always somewhere in the middle. Cook has been very unimaginative as a captain, Carberry has done alright, I feel, in his first full tour. It is slightly humorous that a 3-test veteran is being apportioned equal blame for England staring down the barrel as those nearing or having reached 100 tests. It's a signal of the absolute failure the English batsmen have achieved. To win this test, they'd already need their highest score in this series, the fourth innings at the WACA is probably the last place to they achieve this. With that said, England are not done (as a general term, they are buried in this series). But serious introspection is needed. Cook hasn't been playing well for a while, and his captaincy is pedestrian to the point where I'm not sure he adds anything as one. Should he be relieved of the pressure? If so, who takes it? Stuart Broad, for all my apprehensions about him, looks a natural leader, and has a cricketing brain on him.

Root - Pretty good tour for him individually. Has by no means shone, but when the competition is this dire, he has only needed to flicker to be the leading light.

KP - I've made my apprehension about KP quite clear for a while now, and at this point I'm making a bold call: It's time to drop him. KP wins you matches, which is great in a successful team where you can rely on other players to share the load when he's failing to convert the rest of the series. Not too many KP-esque players flourish in teams chronically unable to score runs

I was happyish yesterday. We had our best day of the series, we follow that with the worst.

I tells me one thing.

Aus saw it as there worst day and upped the intensity. We can't up the intensity.we are like a broken coil

Just seen a blow Rodgers took from Stokes. No chance England bat a 140 overs, or whatever it turns out to be, on this deck! If those cracks widen it is going to be get very savage.

Pretty much the nightmare day for England, not there worst day fo the series but one of the most important to lose. No way back into this game from here. And Broad potentially out too, it just gets worse and worse! When it rains it pours.

Just a note on Warner, yes he batted well today and has put Australia into an unassailable position with a quick and perfect for the situation play but his celebration in Prior's face was just uncalled for and unnecessary.

it was our worst day.

Looking at the way England are playing in this ongoing Ashes, one question comes to my mind. During the last Ashes some months back Whether it Australia lost or England won. Going through the whole series I come up to a conclusion that it was Australia that lost rather than England winning the cup. Australia took lead in three matches in the first innings and then went on to lose, thanks to some trumpcard performance from one or two English players.
What Aussies had lost that time, they had regained now. I hope to see Clarke lifting the trophy.

To be fair to Warner
1) he's generally a pr!ck
2) That's how he celebrates his tons
3) Prior was doing a lot of talking beforehand.

Linebreaker wrote:Not sure England are capable of a long stand batting last, mysti.

The cracks will be even worse tomorrow and when Australia finally declare it will be the usual painfully slow scoring from England you'd imagine. I just can't see them ticking the scoreboard over for any sustainable length of time. On the other hand, going for the draw will also prove fatal.

The chances of 3 of the top 5 scoring 100s? Pretty much zero I'd say. Cook and Bell are your best chances. KP just doesn't look right. Root and Carberry are capable of putting on a brave fight for a while but I can't see either of those two rewriting history at the WACA.

Given how flimsy the batting from six down is, Bell has next to no chance of doing anything in this series - he's basically been screwed by Flower.

bell has allways only ever screwed himself- it has allways been his decision to play at 5- no one else's.

amanuensis wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:Not sure England are capable of a long stand batting last, mysti.

The cracks will be even worse tomorrow and when Australia finally declare it will be the usual painfully slow scoring from England you'd imagine. I just can't see them ticking the scoreboard over for any sustainable length of time. On the other hand, going for the draw will also prove fatal.

The chances of 3 of the top 5 scoring 100s? Pretty much zero I'd say. Cook and Bell are your best chances. KP just doesn't look right. Root and Carberry are capable of putting on a brave fight for a while but I can't see either of those two rewriting history at the WACA.

Given how flimsy the batting from six down is, Bell has next to no chance of doing anything in this series - he's basically been screwed by Flower.

Screwed by Flower??? Are you questioning why he was not given the no. 3 position after Trott departs?

mystiroakey wrote:bell has allways only ever screwed himself- it has allways been his decision to play at 5- no one else's.

Sorry,but that's rubbish - he's ways stated his preference for batting up the order.

mysti talking Love sacks as usual...Bell has always said he wants to bat higher up the order..he's left at 5 because he's an expeienced hand who usually has to hold the inning together, and bats well with the tail.

CF wrote:mysti talking Love sacks as usual...Bell has always said he wants to bat higher up the order..he's left at 5 because he's an expeienced hand who usually has to hold the inning together, and bats well with the tail.

thats ok live on in ignorance

Linebreaker wrote:I see what you mean.   

When was the turning point in this match do you think? On the media here they are really getting stuck into Prior.

Mitch's 'mark' to get rid of KP yesterday was one of those moments which must have lifted our team. Very few players could have pulled that one off.

Linebreaker - I'm not sure there has been a turning point in this match. Far more, England yet again starting determinedly but being unable to withstand the continuing fight and intensity of Australia's performance.

Look at the half way scores on the doors for both teams first time round.

Australia 143/5.
England 190/5.

One side added 242 runs for their last 5 wickets whilst the other managed a mere 61. Kind of tells the story of the series. And the man you just can't keep out of this series is Johnson. Not a turning point - as it was already clear which way England's wreck of a car with no brakes was going! - but Broad's dismissal summed things up so much for me.

Wonderful bowling. A brilliant toe crunching ball at tremendous pace. Reminiscent of Thomson's sandshoe crusher. Rather typically though, Johnson has not been given much credit for it. Typically also, it illustrates England's continuing bad luck as it not only got Broad out but will probably keep him out injured for some time. Everything England currently on a downward spiral.

Each member of the Australian team seems to be doing very well or at least usefully chipping in throughout this series. In contrast, the England players are struggling to do even the latter.

Prior had a shocker. His keeping before has been good (although not as good as Haddin's) but today it was on a par with his batting.

Carberry (as I suspected) looks out of his depth although, to his credit, is working hard and keeping his head above water. That being one of our best bits says so much.

what was said and only once by the way.

bell was asked if he would play at 3.

He said he was willing to play at 3 but the decision wasn't his.

He has allways commented before that he prefers batting lower down the order and his averages are so much better down the order(which is the reasoning behind his stance)

Bell should have really stepped up , not just commented that he would play at 3 if he was told to. Off course he would!!

Our worst day merely precedes our finest hour (plus 11).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxrhO3TTvr4

but anyway no.3 isnt a problem.

Root is a class act and the only batter to have not embarrassed himself this series

bell should have been pushing to open a long time ago

Yes, unfortunately for us Aussies it's impossible to feel sorry for Prior, Anderson, Broad (I felt his pain today though), Bell and Swann especially after the way the have all carried on in the past. KP is/was sort of different - there was almost a love/hate thing going on between the Aussie fans and him. Maybe...

As for Warner - there was a short piece on his upbringing today. It's a rags to riches story but he came across as a very simple and raw type of young man. He's been good to his Mum, Dad and brother though... so some points for him there. He's not particularly well educated obviously and it shows.

I've nothing against that - but I've always thought someone should spend a few hours with people in the spotlight like him and try to instil some basic manners and a more polished presentation in front of the cameras (not going to happen I'm afraid)... and alas, that is unfortunately the way your average punter here likes to see our sporting personalities portrayed. It's as though they expect someone with a brutal approach to their game to keep their 'rough edges'. I suppose that's the archetypal hero here. It's a pretty lazy and crude 'hero' as we all know.

There are a few more gentlemanly sports stars in Australia... but they are firmly in the minority. (Think Adam Scott or Pat Rafter)
Pity, beacuse I'd get even more satisfaction if they said less to the media and acted more like decent people with a modicum of dignity and carefully chosen words.  I know this view is almost laughed at here and that my chances of seeing a true sportsman (in every sense of the word) are quite slim. So we just have to wear it all the time. Maybe I need to loosen up a bit and kind of ignore all of these grating aspects of particular individuals? I sort of do anyway.

Can't sleep - keep seeing the missed stumpings , KP holing out to mid on , etc ...the horror !

Must be worse for you poor b....ers having to take all this in while deprived of normal sleep patterns ...I salute you for staying with it  despite the unfolding disasters.  

The turning point in this match was probably the dismissal of Cook. (I could be snarky and say it was the Erasmus/Hill dudding of Root , but that would not be fair. S..t happens ) When Cook and KP were together , anything was possible ...couple more hours bowling fruitlessly in that heat would have made it very hard for Clarke to keep control , even with the added benefit Watson's useful bowling brings to the attack.
Was an uncharacteristic shot from Cook , one he normally nails ...reveals the strain he is under , I think. Once he went , KP found playing the foreign role he had accepted for all those overs impossible to maintain ...and all downhill from there.

Not surprised Prior is getting stick. Has probably been England's biggest disappointment : not a squeak from him with the bat until the Adelaide match was all over; an awful dismissal today ; and now his keeping looks shot...
He has been a fine player for England for several years , and won't be lightly discarded. But he will surely be "on notice" in the next Test series England contest.
KP ? God knows ...just months ago he played an absolute blinder in India : now he can't buy a run. Desire not quite there any more ? Even though he might not realize it himself , perhaps ? I hope not. He is great to watch , and I would like to see him come back to form for another year or two.
Less worried about the bowlers. As I have said before , I think a combination of slightly unsuitable conditions , some poor fielding , lack of a fully fit and in form fourth pillar , and the constant pressure of having to come back and bowl again mere hours after they had got off the field the first time around have made them look worse than they actually are. Granted Swann and Anderson are over 30 ...but so is Johnson , who has just come back from the dead !
England do need to address the third seamer problem though : Bresnan is a good , but limited bowler. Stokes shows promise ; but at the moment he also shows confident batsmen a lot of four balls... And when Swann does pack it in , the spinning cupboard looks a bit bare.(Monty can do a job in Asia , but otherwise , problems loom)

One thing at a time though. Tomorrow first. Hopefully then Tuesday...and then I would let them all have a day or two off before trying to refocus for Melbourne.

mystiroakey wrote:but anyway no.3 isnt a problem.

Root is a class act and the only batter to have not embarrassed himself this series

bell should have been pushing to open a long time ago

Bell has barely opened in his first class career! Why should he move around to accommodate Root?

Crickey , lb ...nobody expects any Australian to feel sorry for the England players ! Least of all the players themselves...

Maybe some sympathy for the supporters   

I do wish the Australian media didn't egg the players on to overdo the ugly stuff though .
Seems like the myth is growing - again - that the key to winning Test matches is to be overtly nasty to your opponents , on and even sometimes off the pitch. Which is rubbish , really. Aggressive intent , yes. But if you don't have the skills to effect it , all the verbals are just hot air.

I'd rather praise Johnson's bowling than his mo or that slightly unconvincing "mean" look. Or even (through gritted teeth) Warner for his outrageous batting than his sometimes OTT "in your face" celebrations...

Anyway , congrats Aussies.

Yes, LB, I suspect you find it easier to ignore your sportsmen's failing when they come from your country! I know our South African friends on here aren't fans of Broad, but I've never really seen the problem with him!

Adam Scott is a real gentleman and always comes across as a top guy. The only negative about him is Steve Williams! Maybe he could come in and open the batting? Warner has the technique for golf pretty much perfect anway...   

alfie wrote:Crickey , lb ...nobody expects any Australian to feel sorry for the England players !  Least of all the players themselves...

Maybe some sympathy for the supporters   

So you've been in the sun too long as well?   

You know what I mean. It's not about feeling sorry for anyone. More about reactions from players and fans whether winning or losing.

That's a major psychological weapon in itself. We always seem to take the predictable, less sophisticated approach which everyone likes/wants to hear. Surely we can raise the bar... even slightly?

Let's be fair JDizzle...No-one quite knows why they don't like Broad! He just seems... Sour.

I quite like him Raf! Although I can certainly see where the dislike would come from!

JDizzle wrote:Yes, LB, I suspect you find it easier to ignore your sportsmen's failing when they come from your country! I know our South African friends on here aren't fans of Broad, but I've never really seen the problem with him!

Adam Scott is a real gentleman and always comes across as a top guy. The only negative about him is Steve Williams! Maybe he could come in and open the batting? Warner has the technique for golf pretty much perfect anway...   

That's right JD.
Maybe some perceive Scott as boring - but it's less effort to listen to him speak - win or lose.
It would make things easier for us when we lose - and we are all probably experts at burning our bridges!
I don't know... it's as if we never think about possible escape routes when things go astray.
(I'm trying not to take sport so seriously these days but it's too late. I was imprinted at a very young age!)  

I really don't know why I don't like him. I just see him on the telly, and I get this urge to kick him or something. I've actually tried to see exactly what it is that frustrates me about him and I only came with negligible things like -
Blonde hair
He had long locks
English
is 6'5 but only bowls 135-ish
punchable face
always looks unhappy
dubious Reviews
doesn't walk

fairly minor things which I certainly don't mind in athletes, and he has them all. probably creates a camel-straw situation.

People surely only dislike Stuart Broad because he''s gorgeous, no?

Don't know if hes gorgeous, but he certainly looks a girl I once sat next to in biology...

Tall, athletic, great hair, nice smile, superb legs - what's not to like?

Not quite in Anderson's league, but still...

If only Ian Bell looked as honest as Chris Rogers....

Duty, isn't Anderson's nickname Virgil?

I was thinking more tall, womanly, whingy, hittable face...

The myth that James 'greentop king' Anderson is anyway near Dale Steyn has been buried in this series.

Without a raging greentop, Anderson's nothing more than a medium paced dobber.

Gerry SA wrote:The myth that James 'greentop king' Anderson is anyway near Dale Steyn has been buried in this series.

Without a raging greentop, Anderson's nothing more than a medium paced dobber.

Without a greentop, Anderson is still more than a medium pace dobber. He's a very, very good bowler who's been nowhere his best in this series. But no, he's nowhere near Steyn. But it is possible to praise one without disparaging the other.