Another Drive4show 'Anything goes' thread

[MontysMerkin]

First topic message reminder :

That's why these pursuits should be undertaken in videogames and not in real life. Real life has a nasty habit of finding you out to be the hopeless loser you don't think you are.

[beninho]

We have very different attitudes to booze then most of europe though dont we. Personally i think there should be a zero tolerance on drink driving, if you are driving no drink at all. But if even 1 person has an extra drink then gets in a car, its one to many, and therefore a daft idea.

[mystiroakey]

Well they arnt, they just get away with drink driving more.

[mystiroakey]

But something to note..

Its all well and good whinging about how irresponsible we are etc. BUt it is actually nonsense- We have the safest motorways in the world.

So maybe all this moaning is a waste of time.

Typical English behaviour isn't it really. Whining about ourselves. When the reality is we are actually 'better' than the rest in this regard

[super_realist]

We have very different attitudes to booze then most of europe though dont we. Personally i think there should be a zero tolerance on drink driving, if you are driving no drink at all. But if even 1 person has an extra drink then gets in a car, its one to many, and therefore a daft idea.

I'd be happy with that. In Scandinavia you get very severe punishments and the drink drive limit is very low, almost zero tolerance.

Trouble is in the UK, too easy not to get caught, not enough deterrent/punishment

[mystiroakey]

you just talked about 'europe' now are coming back with Scandinavia.

Its very normal to drink and drive in Europe SR.

Stop grouping the whole of western Europe with what you think about Scandinavia.

And as stated the UK is safer to drive on the motorways than anywhere else in the world - Yes the world includes Scandinavia.

[mystiroakey]

And what makes the UK stats so amazing when it comes to how safe our motorways are. They are also the busiest in Europe!!

[mystiroakey]

http://www.abd.org.uk/safest_roads.htm

"When the UK clearly has by far the safest roads in Europe, we have to ask why we also have the most anti-car government in Europe, if not the world.
The British government spends millions of pounds of public money on propaganda which gives the impression that our roads are the worst in Europe.

To implement it's so called "road safety" policy, it imposes speed cameras, traffic calming, speed humps, unreasonably low speed limits, bus lanes, road narrowing, and complete road closures. It covers our roads and pavements with a shambolic mess of white lines, red and green splodges, textured surfaces and obstructions.

Despite our motorways being the safest in Europe by a country mile, the government pig-headedly refuses to raise the utterly discredited 70 mph motorway speed limit.

We are not saying that road safety in the UK cannot be improved, but the way to achieve that is clearly to praise drivers for being the safest in Europe, and to encourage excellence through education. Battering drivers with an endless succession of 'sticks' may be something favoured by the likes of John Prescott, but people do not take kindly to such aggression and abuse of power"

[beninho]

I have no knowledge about the motorways or drink driving in any european country, and was not passing a comment on that. I do believe that they have a different attitude to drink though in general, which i think is a widely held belief. We may be better when it comes to motorway driving then others, i dont know. But i do think having a pub is not a good idea.

[mystiroakey]

Look Benhio dude.

Its a typical response, from people like you and SR.

You think we are so bad, we are the worse drivers, we are the worse offenders, we are the most irresponsible etc..

WEll that is 100% nonsense, because it would be impossible to have the safest roads in the world if that was the case!

Off course you shouldnt drink and drive , but whatever nonsense SR wants to spout. This country is much harder to get away with drink driving - especially compared to the rest of europe.

I just struggle to work out how people can get these things so back to front.

I do drive a lot in Europe and the stats do not lie!! I can tell you that from a lot of experience.

What I also know is that in the UK we are very hard on ourselves.. Where as in the rest of Europe things are brushed under the carpet a lot!

Don't fall into this trap..


"I do believe that they have a different attitude to drink though in general, which i think is a widely held belief."

yes in many European countries they drink and drive a lot, but they rarely get caught .Well done for picking up on that.

If you are talking about drinking in general. yes they have a different attiitude to drink. Drink is very much part of many european countries make up. They all drink wine with lunch, dinner etc and then all drive home.. We are very different in the fact that many of us binge drink but dont drink on a day to day basis..

I have been on many European golf trips and the most shocking in this regard are in Northern France.. You cant even get cabs home from restaurants.. There is no market for them.. Everyone drives to the restaurants- drinks cases of wine and then drive home!

[super_realist]

you just talked about 'europe' now are coming back with Scandinavia.

Its very normal to drink and drive in Europe SR.

Stop grouping the whole of western Europe with what you think about Scandinavia.

And as stated the UK is safer to drive on the motorways than anywhere else in the world - Yes the world includes Scandinavia.

I wasn't grouping them together at all. I was simply stating that that particular area has very strict laws on drink driving,
THat isn't the same as saying that all countries are like that, nor was I saying driving in Scandinavia is safer than the UK, I was agreeing with Bens "zero tolerance" suggestion and what Scandinavia is like in comparision to drink drive limits.

What is also overlooked is that most other European countries have much more extreme weather which no doubt impacts on the amount of accidents they have.

What I'd like to see is not generic safety levels, but the number (per capita) of drink drive related accidents across Europe where drink drive limits and punishments differ.

For the record, my French colleague frequently gambles on that score. In fact he had to be persuaded out of his car and into mine last week, just in case.

[beninho]

So the post about how safe our roads are is fine. But arent all the reasons mentioned reasons why our roads are so safe? The claim we have the safest roads in europe may be true, if so why change anything about how out highways are run. How would letting people drive faster make the roads any safer.

And can you please stop making things up that i have said, "You think we are so bad, we are the worse drivers, we are the worse offenders, we are the most irresponsible etc.." I havent said any of that.

[mystiroakey]

SR you very easily get sucked into thing that European attitudes are better and they are more sensible. Its BS, and you are only suckered in by propaganda.

We in the Uk are hard on ourselves. In Europe its more chilled out and they can become very forgetful.

If you ever move out there you will probably understand it a bit more. But at the moment tbh you havent got a clue.

[mystiroakey]

So the post about how safe our roads are is fine. But arent all the reasons mentioned reasons why our roads are so safe? The claim we have the safest roads in europe may be true, if so why change anything about how out highways are run. How would letting people drive faster make the roads any safer.

And can you please stop making things up that i have said, "You think we are so bad, we are the worse drivers, we are the worse offenders, we are the most irresponsible etc.." I havent said any of that.

SR has and you are agreeing with him.

Open up your eyes.. I am only informing you on the truth

[super_realist]

The claim we have the safest roads in Europe is also refuted based on what report you read.

In any event that wasn't the question, it was the relation of alcohol uptake and driving that was of interest.

[mystiroakey]

The claim we have the safest roads in Europe is also refuted based on what report you read.

In any event that wasn't the question, it was the relation of alcohol uptake and driving that was of interest.

so what is it you are saying SR.

That none of that matters , but us in the Uk all drink and drive at a higher rate than the rest of Europe yet never get caught doing it.

Is this Surreal day or something?

Could anyone get a statement so back to front.

And if you want to prove the statement that the UK roads arnt the safest please inform me. I had to go on a drive wise course the other month and we were pretty much schooled on it. And since then i have looked at plenty of sources that suggest it is correct..

I

[super_realist]

I didn't say that Oakey, in fact I didn't say we even had a higher rate of drink driving. I simply said we had a poor attitude to drink compared to the Europeans, you made the connection between that and driving.

On one hand though, I don't think the penalties for drink driving are hard enough and I think the limit is way too high.

[mystiroakey]

what getting a minimum of a 12 month ban isnt harsh enough.

What the heck are you talking about.

You also suggested that we are not as responsible as Europeans?

t's really common in Europe for garages/service stations to have a pretty big booze section.

I suppose they are more responsible than us though."

I

Explain what you mean by that. The truth is all service stations sell alcohol anyway!!(have you ever been to one in the uk that hasn't got alcohol in the fridges??

You also sated that we get away with drink driving more here.  

Trouble is in the UK, too easy not to get caught, not enough deterrent/punishment

Again do you want to explain that?

[super_realist]

Of course it's too easy not to get caught. How many times have you had a random check and been breathalysed?

[mystiroakey]

I was banned for 12 months

Anyway enough of that....

Point being you are comparing the UK to Europe as if they get stopped more and punished more.

How do you know this?

From my experience that is BS. And every stat out there suggests it is BS.

[super_realist]

12 months is nothing.

in France you lose your licence for 36 months and you are required to have a personal breathalyser in your car at all times.

[westisbest]

Wouldnt say 12 months is nothing.

Long time to go without driving.

Thats France, dont live there.
Although that IS a long time.

[super_realist]

I'd like to see far stiffer penalties for those driving without insurance, MOT or VED too.
Whilst all VED should go back into the road network.

[beninho]

I do not understand where the link has come from a new pub on a service station to who has the safest roads. Me and SR are in agreement that it should be pretty much zero tolerance on drink driving. If anyone gets behind a wheel over the limit, 12 months is getting off lightly if you ask me. But i dont care who has the safest roads in europe. I know nothing of drink driving in europe so do not know how it compares, but again, thats got nothing to do with the initial point. Not of this really has.

[mystiroakey]

The only stats that will tell us who the worst offenders are are by comparing how many of the accidents are related to drink driving.

WE cant use convictions as so many European countries are so slack on it.

I can only find that 1 in 4(25%) deaths in the EU is down to drink driving. rather than looking into individual countries- because lets be honest I haven't got all day!



And that 17% of deaths in the UK are caused by drink drivers.

And as we know from previous stats the uk is the safest place to drive even though it has the most drivers on the road.

This should tell you that you couldn't be more wrong in your assessment's about UK drink driving.

[mystiroakey]

I do not understand where the link has come from a new pub on a service station to who has the safest roads. Me and SR are in agreement that it should be pretty much zero tolerance on drink driving. If anyone gets behind a wheel over the limit, 12 months is getting off lightly if you ask me. But i dont care who has the safest roads in europe. I know nothing of drink driving in europe so do not know how it compares, but again, thats got nothing to do with the initial point. Not of this really has.

I agreed with your initial point. I stated that as long as the place is also a hotel(which in fairness they allways are) then no problem at all.

My comment was in regards to SR's European BS. That everyone is Europe has better attitude and can be trusted blah blah blah. Nonsense. yet the fact is - its the other way around.

You dont have to continue that discussion if you dont want. I am not forcing you to.

[mystiroakey]

12 months is nothing.

in France you lose your licence for 36 months and you are required to have a personal breathalyser in your car at all times.

and yet they all drink and drive in France, yet never get pulled over!

This is the problem. You dont understand the realities of the situation.

You look at 12 months and 36 months and think they do more about it in France. The reality is you couldn't be more wrong!!

[super_realist]

The way the only stats that will tell us who the worst offenders are are by comparing how many of the accidents are related to drink driving.

WE cant use convictions as so many European countries are so slack on it.

I can only find that 1 in 4(25%) deaths in the EU is down to drink driving. rather than looking into individual countries- because lets be honest I haven't got all day!



And that 17% of deaths in the UK are caused by drink drivers.

And as we know from previous stats the uk is the safest place to drive even though it has the most drivers on the road.

This should tell you that you couldn't be more wrong in your assessment's about UK drink driving.

Oakey, it is NEVER that clear. Let's also consider things like weather too in regards to road safety. We can't make more than cursory assessments without all the data. Winter in the Alpine areas, and my favourite Scandinavia are pretty severe and could be a significant contributing factor to both genuine and drink related accidents. Also high number of tourists at certain times of year.
THere's more to it than simply driver and or roads.

I'm more concerned about "morning after" driving.

[super_realist]

12 months is nothing.

in France you lose your licence for 36 months and you are required to have a personal breathalyser in your car at all times.

and yet they all drink and drive in France, yet never get pulled over!

This is the problem. You dont understand the realities of the situation.

You look at 12 months and 36 months and think they do more about it in France. The reality is you couldn't be more wrong!!

And you complain that I am saying things without justification. Where is your evidence that "they are all drinking and driving and never get pulled over"?

[mystiroakey]

The way the only stats that will tell us who the worst offenders are are by comparing how many of the accidents are related to drink driving.

WE cant use convictions as so many European countries are so slack on it.

I can only find that 1 in 4(25%) deaths in the EU is down to drink driving. rather than looking into individual countries- because lets be honest I haven't got all day!



And that 17% of deaths in the UK are caused by drink drivers.

And as we know from previous stats the uk is the safest place to drive even though it has the most drivers on the road.

This should tell you that you couldn't be more wrong in your assessment's about UK drink driving.

Oakey, it is NEVER that clear. Let's also consider things like weather too in regards to road safety. We can't make more than cursory assessments without all the data. Winter in the Alpine areas, and my favourite Scandinavia are pretty severe and could be a significant contributing factor to both genuine and drink related accidents. Also high number of tourists at certain times of year.
THere's more to it than simply driver and or roads.

I'm more concerned about "morning after" driving.

Well you dont understand how to interpret stats then do you.

25% deaths in the EU are due to drink driving and 17% in the uk.

Think about what you are saying

[beninho]

17% of deaths caused by drink driving. That a horrendous figure isnt it?. 17% caused by irresponsible selfish idiots. 17% that could have so easily not happened.

[mystiroakey]

12 months is nothing.

in France you lose your licence for 36 months and you are required to have a personal breathalyser in your car at all times.

and yet they all drink and drive in France, yet never get pulled over!

This is the problem. You dont understand the realities of the situation.

You look at 12 months and 36 months and think they do more about it in France. The reality is you couldn't be more wrong!!

And you complain that I am saying things without justification. Where is your evidence that "they are all drinking and driving and never get pulled over"?

Experience as stated.

You will only have to drive for 5 miles in France to work it out.

I have given examples above. They dont even have cab firms in northern France, yet they all drink with dinner.

As soon as you get of the tunnel you realise how drunk the French are-- They drive all over the road.

[super_realist]

How many of those would be drink driving in the UK considering the UK has a higher drink drive limit than most of Europe. That extra 8% may well be within UK drink drive limits, and therefore may be attributed to another reason.

That's why I didn't interpret your "stats" because they aren't directly comparable.

[super_realist]

12 months is nothing.

in France you lose your licence for 36 months and you are required to have a personal breathalyser in your car at all times.

and yet they all drink and drive in France, yet never get pulled over!

This is the problem. You dont understand the realities of the situation.

You look at 12 months and 36 months and think they do more about it in France. The reality is you couldn't be more wrong!!

And you complain that I am saying things without justification. Where is your evidence that "they are all drinking and driving and never get pulled over"?

Experience as stated.

You will only have to drive for 5 miles in France to work it out.

I have given examples above. They dont even have cab firms in northern France, yet they all drink with dinner.

As soon as you get of the tunnel you realise how drunk the French are-- They drive all over the road.

I've spent a year in France and a year In Austria, I never saw any worse driving in EUrope than in the UK.

[mystiroakey]

17% of deaths caused by drink driving. That a horrendous figure isnt it?. 17% caused by irresponsible selfish idiots. 17% that could have so easily not happened.

True i agree. That isn't my argument though is it.

My argument is with the nonsense that it is so greener in Europe..

We all agree with your original point(only a lunatic wouldn't). The conversation has moved on..

[mystiroakey]

12 months is nothing.

in France you lose your licence for 36 months and you are required to have a personal breathalyser in your car at all times.

and yet they all drink and drive in France, yet never get pulled over!

This is the problem. You dont understand the realities of the situation.

You look at 12 months and 36 months and think they do more about it in France. The reality is you couldn't be more wrong!!

And you complain that I am saying things without justification. Where is your evidence that "they are all drinking and driving and never get pulled over"?

Experience as stated.

You will only have to drive for 5 miles in France to work it out.

I have given examples above. They dont even have cab firms in northern France, yet they all drink with dinner.

As soon as you get of the tunnel you realise how drunk the French are-- They drive all over the road.

I've spent a year in France and a year In Austria, I never saw any worse driving in EUrope than in the UK.

Well I would have to say you are lieing then SR. I have spoken to 100's of experience European drivers and not one would agree with you

[super_realist]

Yeah, I'm lying Oakey because I have a different experience to you.  

Can just imagine Oakey at the Border with his clipboard and survey " so eh, what do you think of european driving?"

[mystiroakey]

Yeah, I'm lying Oakey because I have a different experience to you.   

Well all i can say then It must be the Scottish drivers.

Anyway are you going to explain the points you raised about how irresponsible the drivers are in the UK compared to the rest of europe?

[super_realist]

Did I say drivers were irresponsible?

I think we are irresponsible because of our drink drive limits and our paltry punishments.

There's a local alky from my club, just got knicked for his 3rd offence, not licence, no mot, no insurance and got a fine, 5 year ban and community service. Disgraceful penalty.

[mystiroakey]

"It's really common in Europe for garages/service stations to have a pretty big booze section.

I suppose they are more responsible than us though."

explain?

[super_realist]

Having lower drink driving limits encourages more responsible drinking.

[mystiroakey]

BTW just checked up on the French penalties.

0.05% or 0.02% for bus drivers (€135 fine and 6 demerit points on the driver's license, which can be suspended for 3 years maximum)

LOL- that's minimum NO BAN !!! just 6 points

In the uk the minimum is 12 months(upto 36 months).... MAx is jail time !!

You really do waffle some sh!t dont you

[super_realist]

BTW just checked up on the French penalties.

0.05% or 0.02% for bus drivers (€135 fine and 6 demerit points on the driver's license, which can be suspended for 3 years maximum)

LOL- that's minimum NO BAN !!! just 6 points

In the uk the minimum is 12 months(upto 36 months).... MAx is jail time !!

You really do waffle some sh!t dont you

Whereas you can also find stats which contradict your statement that UK roads are the safest.
As ever with the internet it depends where you look and how credible the information is.

[navyblueshorts]

http://www.abd.org.uk/safest_roads.htm

"When the UK clearly has by far the safest roads in Europe, we have to ask why we also have the most anti-car government in Europe, if not the world.
The British government spends millions of pounds of public money on propaganda which gives the impression that our roads are the worst in Europe.

To implement it's so called "road safety" policy, it imposes speed cameras, traffic calming, speed humps, unreasonably low speed limits, bus lanes, road narrowing, and complete road closures. It covers our roads and pavements with a shambolic mess of white lines, red and green splodges, textured surfaces and obstructions.

Despite our motorways being the safest in Europe by a country mile, the government pig-headedly refuses to raise the utterly discredited 70 mph motorway speed limit.

We are not saying that road safety in the UK cannot be improved, but the way to achieve that is clearly to praise drivers for being the safest in Europe, and to encourage excellence through education. Battering drivers with an endless succession of 'sticks' may be something favoured by the likes of John Prescott, but people do not take kindly to such aggression and abuse of power"

Being a bit Devil's Advocate, the above is pretty funny. Maybe, just maybe, we have some of the statistically safest roads because of that so-called 'anti-car government'?
As for the 70 m.p.h. limit, it's generally policed on the M-ways sensibly i.e. Plod don't come over all fine-happy if you're doing 80. Make the legal limit 80 m.p.h. and you'll get arse-holes doing 90 all the time. It's fine the way it's policed now. Increase it, increase the policing and enforce the new limit.

[mystiroakey]

http://www.abd.org.uk/safest_roads.htm

"When the UK clearly has by far the safest roads in Europe, we have to ask why we also have the most anti-car government in Europe, if not the world.
The British government spends millions of pounds of public money on propaganda which gives the impression that our roads are the worst in Europe.

To implement it's so called "road safety" policy, it imposes speed cameras, traffic calming, speed humps, unreasonably low speed limits, bus lanes, road narrowing, and complete road closures. It covers our roads and pavements with a shambolic mess of white lines, red and green splodges, textured surfaces and obstructions.

Despite our motorways being the safest in Europe by a country mile, the government pig-headedly refuses to raise the utterly discredited 70 mph motorway speed limit.

We are not saying that road safety in the UK cannot be improved, but the way to achieve that is clearly to praise drivers for being the safest in Europe, and to encourage excellence through education. Battering drivers with an endless succession of 'sticks' may be something favoured by the likes of John Prescott, but people do not take kindly to such aggression and abuse of power"

Being a bit Devil's Advocate, the above is pretty funny. Maybe, just maybe, we have some of the statistically safest roads because of that so-called 'anti-car government'?
As for the 70 m.p.h. limit, it's generally policed on the M-ways sensibly i.e. Plod don't come over all fine-happy if you're doing 80. Make the legal limit 80 m.p.h. and you'll get arse-holes doing 90 all the time. It's fine the way it's policed now. Increase it, increase the policing and enforce the new limit.

I agree but that was my point. We are safer , but there is a reason why we are safer.

In the rest of Europe it is all brushed under the carpet. The problem is that the propaganda infiltrates people like SR and they then believe the problem is in the UK and the grass is greener elsewhere

[mystiroakey]

BTW just checked up on the French penalties.

0.05% or 0.02% for bus drivers (€135 fine and 6 demerit points on the driver's license, which can be suspended for 3 years maximum)

LOL- that's minimum NO BAN !!! just 6 points

In the uk the minimum is 12 months(upto 36 months).... MAx is jail time !!

You really do waffle some sh!t dont you

Whereas you can also find stats which contradict your statement that UK roads are the safest.
As ever with the internet it depends where you look and how credible the information is.

Yeah and all mine are credible sources. Where do you get your info from?.care to link it?

[super_realist]

Probably the same source you did, but you forgot to notice that the MINOR offences carry a discretionary ban, but the MAJOR ones are automatic.

[raycastleunited]

Afternoon Mysti, you're on fine form today. Liquid lunch by any chance?

[mystiroakey]

Look mate the reason why France went so hardcore on drink driving was because they had such a problem with it in the first place.

France has one of the worst accident rates in Europe and over 25% of those related to drink drivers.

This is why they stepped up the major offence ban..

You also state that in Europe they have a better attitude to alcohol. I kind of agree. BUt when we are talking about drink driving. There set up and attitude is worse.. Because it is so within there culture to allways drink whilst they eat.

So basically the point here is that they were pushed into doing what they did because of there attitudes to drink driving...

We in the UK do not have as bad of an issue..

Down the line we may end up having to increase our punishments.. But the fact is I personally think we are just much better and much more responsible here when it comes to driving. Education is the key..

I much prefer the money being spent on eduction over enforcement which we are doing with drive wise courses..

Prevention is allways better than the cure for me..

[mystiroakey]

Afternoon Mysti, you're on fine form today. Liquid lunch by any chance?

SR's sucking up to mainland Europe leads me to wanting a liquid lunch every now and again.

The irony is I love the place myself. But he is to much.

[kwinigolfer]

Hope you didn't drive home after your "liquid lunch" mysti,

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