If the Welsh leave the Rabo?

If the Welsh leave the Rabo what is the alternative for the other teams?
Can they actually leave as surely there is contract issues but primarily how will we fill the gap, do we stick with 8 teams and go to three rounds rather than two or add more teams from the other countries, or perhaps add Eastern European teams.

WRU is contractually bound to provide 4 teams to Rabo12 league until this Participation Agreement expires. which i think is june 2016? (could be wrong on that)

doesnt mean it has to be the regions though.

as far as i can gather, the regions dont have a Rabo obligation themselves, its all via the WRU

Its not going to happen is it? Far too many obstacles in the way of them joining the AP

If it did then more teams eastern european would be my choice.

I'm assuming as the regions can't just leave the Rabo, the proposed Anglo-Welsh competition would be to replace the heineken cup for the Welsh and English? or do the regions want to leave the rabo to join the aviva and still have the european cup? i'm so confused.

I don't think they know. themselves. also the LV cup as well - maybe replace that?

as far as i can make out...

regions could leave the rabo (is WRU obligation, not Regions, to provide teams which is why they collect all the monies)

but joining AP is going to be hard to get done

either WRU needs to approve

or Regions need to become supervised by RFU (would require IRB adjudication).

If WRU approved, RFU approved, and PRL approved, there is no reason the Heineken cup qualification couldn't encompass this, but i suspect the blowback from what would be left in the Rabo would be seriously unhappy about welsh clubs leaving them in the cold, and still qualifying for the HC while part of an english league.

it is very confused and confusing, and even the people who know everything dont know how it will all pan out, as legal precedents dont exist so it's all up in the air if it goes to the courts.

On HC qualification - it would surely still be 6 from the ap - remeber its supposed to be about legues now - not unions. so 6 combined from england and wales.   

Liam wrote:I'm assuming as the regions can't just leave the Rabo, the proposed Anglo-Welsh competition would be to replace the heineken cup for the Welsh and English? or do the regions want to leave the rabo to join the aviva and still have the european cup? i'm so confused.

The issue is the European Cup may not happen a year from now. The Participation agreement the WRU wants the Regions to sign says they get £6M + whatever the PRo12 and ERC gene ate. If the ERC goes the Regions lose the money, but they're expected to contract players for 2-3 years. They wanted the WRU to guarantee a set level of funding so they could contract the players. The WRU don't want to do this.

The proposal is that they join the Premiership (as in the league). However this is put across as some sort of threat, which it doesn't work as. For one it would require the WRU's approval. Threats aren't much good if you've got to ask the party you're threatening if it's ok to carry it out. Second, if they ignore the WRU then they go outside of Union and are hoping that the PRL will go with them (nonsense). Three, even if the WRU and PRL approve the RFU needs to be on board. They've already blocked an expansion to the league so it won't just be that.

I've already put forward my only solution for the Wenglo league and it would take at least 2 years to set up (if that road was travelled). Now the solution I suggested is perfectly feasible in theory but it would require 5 different parties all being on board (Regions, English Premiership, English Championship, WRU and RFU). Highly unlikely is an understatement.

Don't do anything by halves in Wales do we... 1st our star players leave Wales, now our top 4 clubs going to leave Welsh rugby....

It seems the WRU are intent on setting up two teams in Wales - one in Cardiff & one in North Wales. They are going to let the Regions head off to the AP (with all their debt).

Philip Browne was asked about it today and replied that if they go to the AP, they become English teams, so yes, the AP would only have 6 teams if they come back to the ERC.

Edit: apparently the WRU have the support of the Welsh Premiership clubs to do this.

No wonder Davies moved quickly and 1/2penny & Warburton are hanging around (to get a new central contract from the WRU for the new Cardiff club).

HammerofThunor wrote:

I've already put forward my only solution for the Wenglo league and it would take at least 2 years to set up (if that road was travelled). Now the solution I suggested is perfectly feasible in theory but it would require 5 different parties all being on board (Regions, English Premiership, English Championship, WRU and RFU). Highly unlikely is an understatement.

....and..... as it's a single League, as someone else mentioned above, if the PRL did join the rest of us in a future European event, that would be only 6 places - unless principles want changing again and it becomes then appreciated by PRL that two separate Union nations are involved and places should be given accordingly.  

That would be interesting down the road if it happened.  Would the Welsh accept that thay might never get representation in a future HEC or would the PRL suddenly realise the significance of the Pro12 structure's complexity?

oh sin got there............ sorry for the repeat.

That is an almighty mess the Welsh have got themselves in.

let's be honest. it's a union created mess there. they forced the merger and quasi union creation. poorly thought through with the benefit of hindsight.

AP will ride in on a white charger and save the Welsh bacon though...it's written in the Great Books of Antiquity. Stop worrying folks. It'll all come good in the end.

Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of Union Hell,
I will fear no Lewis: For thou art with me;
Thy PRL and thy AP, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a League before me in the presence of mine enemies;
Thou annointest my bottom with oil; My cup runneth over.
Surely success and profitability shall follow me all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the House of the Jeff, forever.

You see folks. Fate has intervened for the Welsh. And about bleedin' time because ain't nothing worse than a bunch of unhappy Welsh fellas with voiceboxes.

now, now SF. we're hardly likely to get any welsh participation on this thread with comments like that are we!

apparently, there was no complaining from welsh equipped with voiceboxes when BOD didnt qualify for the third welsh leeks match vs the usedtobees

  keep on   

I'll let a Welshman run my sports association the day I let an Irishman regulate my bank.

in the interest of balance (not really)

i'll let a scotsman run someone else's bank or parliament the day i let an englishman do...wait WTF! scotsmen ran my parliament and the banks i balied out?   

i actually would trust the english to run pretty much everything. but i would also be confident that they would inspire very little. music, film and art being notable recent exceptions.

french? there i defer to my mother.."always refuse to go to war and then when it kicks off rely on someone else to save them"

italians i defer to ebay..."mint condition italian rifle...never fired...dropped once"

have we offended everyone yet? excellent. my work is done here.

I think the WRU want them to leave so the WRU can start over again with regionalism and learn from their mistakes.

Like most (I would imagine) Welsh fans I am just sick and tired of it all now, I can't remember the last time there wasn't some sort of bickering or in-fighting between the Clubs/Regions and the WRU.

Whatever will happen will happen and unfortunately it will happen with very little or no thought to us fans.

TJ wrote:On HC qualification - it would surely still be 6 from the ap - remeber its supposed to be about legues now - not unions.  so 6 combined from england and wales.   

Absolutely you reap what you sow   

Actually a serious question how could England justify special treatment for an Anglo-Welsh league after all the complaints about the Pro-12

Would be funny if the Welsh teams all finish in the top 6  - only 2 English teams in the HC based on the rules they insisted on bringing in   

I actually dont think a Anglo-Welsh league will be created

Is it just me or is Ritchies announcement that the HEC can still be all inclusive timed conveniently as significant rumours of RRW jumping ship are in the air? 

I would suggest he doesn't want to have to green-light any switch and I think he knows the IRB will have their say. If the HEC is saved the PRL will have zero interest in the regions.

Interestingly it's been reported (and I have no idea as to it's accuracy) that the FFR vetoed a proposal that was agreed by everyone else although the broadcasting still hadn't been sorted

If the Welsh leave the Rabbo........they are idiots. Enough said really.   

But if the current welsh regional teams leave for the Aviva, won't they then only be seen as pro clubs owned by individuals?

They would be regional teams no more.

Also if WRU decides to start their new regional teams contractually it would mean they could own them outright, and control players.

It could effectively give them two squads of lets say 35 of the best Welsh players in wales, and that is where they will invest in.

That sounds like smart thinking to me, having two elte squads of players you can control, and basically writing off the other four Pro clubs who essentially is withdrawing themselves from the WRU

Biltong that is exactly what the WRU want - the Regions either accept central control or they will be cast aside like an unwanted rag

Standulstermen wrote:Is it just me or is Ritchies announcement that the HEC can still be all inclusive timed conveniently as significant rumours of RRW jumping ship are in the air? 

I would suggest he doesn't want to have to green-light any switch and I think he knows the IRB will have their say. If the HEC is saved the PRL will have zero interest in the regions.

Interestingly it's been reported (and I have no idea as to it's accuracy) that the FFR vetoed a proposal that was agreed by everyone else although the broadcasting still hadn't been sorted

Stand I think you have it spot on.
This is Ritchie saying to the Welsh Regions we don't want you.

Also the rumour that TV aside it was the French not the Celts who blocked a possible deal is very interesting

Standulstermen wrote:Is it just me or is Ritchies announcement that the HEC can still be all inclusive timed conveniently as significant rumours of RRW jumping ship are in the air? 

I find it very interesting he is referring to the HC not the RCC.

I don't know that he was TJ. I was just using the moniker HEC. All I recall is using the term pan-European competition

geoff998rugby wrote:Biltong that is exactly what the WRU want - the Regions either accept central control or they will be cast aside like an unwanted rag

I for one think it will benefit Welsh rugby at the international level

70 elite players who can be managed, honed, invested in will make for one helluva international squad. More money to less players. One way to beat the big economies of England and France.

Standulstermen wrote:I don't know that he was TJ. I was just using the moniker HEC. All I recall is using the term pan-European competition

Ah

there does seem to be an understanding that the RCC is dead and only the HC under the erc remains viable

Welshmushroom wrote:If the Welsh leave the Rabbo........they are idiots.  Enough said really.    

And signing up to a new agreement that would effectively see them get less money from the WRU from now until 2018, when already they get less than the Scottish and Irish sides get from the SRU and IRFU, would be wise?

Biltong wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Biltong that is exactly what the WRU want - the Regions either accept central control or they will be cast aside like an unwanted rag

I for one think it will benefit Welsh rugby at the international level

70 elite players who can be managed, honed, invested in will make for one helluva international squad. More money to less players. One way to beat the big economies of England and France.

Unless the French and English clubs pay more for club players than the WRU. Then a precedent quandary is set.

And bear in mind there's a strong rumour that the WRU were counselling the international players not to sign new contracts with the regions, why should the regions commit themselves to an organisation that behaves like that?

maestegmafia wrote:

Biltong wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Biltong that is exactly what the WRU want - the Regions either accept central control or they will be cast aside like an unwanted rag

I for one think it will benefit Welsh rugby at the international level

70 elite players who can be managed, honed, invested in will make for one helluva international squad. More money to less players. One way to beat the big economies of England and France.

Unless the French and English clubs pay more for club players than the WRU. Then a precedent quandary is set.

If you are halving your number of squads the WRU provides funding too, it will increase player wages automatically.

One reason why the WRU cannot endorse an Anglo-Welsh league is they would renegrade on their Pro12 agreement to submit 4 teams to the Pro12.

If they failed to do so they would be liable to legal action from the Scots, Irish and Italian. The sums involved would bankrupt Welsh rugby.

Don't worry, likewise the Aviva Premiership is unlikely to have any interest in feeding four more mouths.

Biltong wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:Biltong that is exactly what the WRU want - the Regions either accept central control or they will be cast aside like an unwanted rag

I for one think it will benefit Welsh rugby at the international level

70 elite players who can be managed, honed, invested in will make for one helluva international squad. More money to less players. One way to beat the big economies of England and France.

The issue is that the WRU would be trying to build support for two new teams somewhere in Wales, while the old regions are limping along (or not depending on whether it went well or not). Knowing some Welsh people, this is the exact time when the supporters would get behind the Regions. So then you have 4 teams, who are potentially financially independed drawing in your players, drawing in your supports, while you're stuck with two fake teams playing in front of one man and his dog, filled with academy players. Why couldn't the WRU just put the money it would use to fund the two new teams into the regions with stronger committments from the Regions?

Oh and it's not going to happen (any time soon).

How about the possibility of 3 welsh teams - SE, SW and North Wales, with the inclusion of a Rome based team that was once mooted by the F.I.R - going by the increased attendances of the Azzuri (now getting gates circa 70,000 for 6N) there may be the interest with a place the size of Rome allowing for better opportunity for support growth and the possibility of a sustainable team.

One thing that has been Mooted but never acted upon is WRU taking over London Welsh and the SRU London Scottish

Not sure if its been mentioned but Ryan Jones has publically stated his desire for the Welsh teams to play in a "british league" against the English teams.

Now we can talk about the feasibility of such a move from a pragmatic aspect but to me its very significant if there is a desire within the players for it to happen - if they are not happy with the status quo - the regions, the Rabo - then it is unsustainable I think.

Alternatively, could the Welsh regions moving to the AP set a precedent allowing other teams to play outside their Union? Perhaps other teams that would prefer to play in a regional format who have strong Celtic links, i.e. Cornwall and Brittany

A British Isles League would be good. At the beginning of professionalism it was suggested - but the english would not join. ( suprise!) Hence the Rabo came into existence

there is a difference between what Jones says tho and what is reported. In abstract he says he would like a British league. That is not the same as saying that he wants a Wanglo league

I don't think its right that the Regions could walk straight into the Jeff, they should have to earn the right to be there imo.

ulster_on_the_up wrote:Alternatively, could the Welsh regions moving to the AP set a precedent allowing other teams to play outside their Union? Perhaps other teams that would prefer to play in a regional format who have strong Celtic links, i.e. Cornwall and Brittany

The problem is no TV company will be interested in Munster v some team in Cornwall. We need competitive matches which motivate the players and attract fans and TV interest.

I'd be inclined to reduce the Rabo to 10 teams and push for an additional Scottish and Italian side. The format would have to be changed really.

The Welsh have never really bought into the Rabo, bar the Ospreys, so wouldn't be as big a loss as people think. Connacht are becoming more of a force but the Irish can't be expected to carry the thing forever. We need at least 3 strong Scottish sides and a bit more from the Italians.

Can I ask a question - who owns the grounds where the regions play - the regions themselves or the WRU? I'm assuming that Cardiff Arms Park is owned by the WRU so are they likely to let the Blues play there if they jump ship to the AP as presumably the WRU would want its new Cardiff-based team playing the Arms Park. Anybody in Wales to enlighten me about the grounds where Dragons, Ospreys, Scarlets play - do they own them?

The regions won't walk straight in. The IRB will have something to say yet again. In terms of the competition we do need more competitive sides. The table doesn't lie and I seriously hope Glasgows form improves (and it should)

brennomac wrote:Can I ask a question - who owns the grounds where the regions play - the regions themselves or the WRU?  I'm assuming that Cardiff Arms Park is owned by the WRU so are they likely to let the Blues play there if they jump ship to the AP as presumably the WRU would want its new Cardiff-based team playing the Arms Park. Anybody in Wales to enlighten me about the grounds where Dragons, Ospreys, Scarlets play - do they own them?

The WRU own none of the grounds.

But the Regions do not own Parc y Scarlets or Liberty Stadium.

Part Council part Private I believe.
Do these grounds meet the PRL criteria for entry into the Aviva.
If they don't then them getting places ahead of Championship teams that meet the criteria could open up another can of worms.

Also the CAP and Rodney are owned by the club team not the Region I believe. How would ownership transfer and I would guess Newport and Cardiff would go under as clubs.
WRU would not sanction Regions playing on grounds owned by its members.

Lawyers are going to make a mint of of this