Scotland Fans' 2014 6N of hell Post-mortem

First topic message reminder :

EDIT March 18th post-Scotland's capitulation to Wales

So, it's the end of the six nations. I have to say the intention of this early prediction thread was to calm all suppositions that Scotland might be anywhere near a threat this year. I have maintained that things look better with Cotter coming in (and hopefully not having to resort to 5th/6th choice wings, though that couldn't have been predicted).

Someone pointed out that in this last game if Wales had received the red card the scoreline would not have been the same in reverse. In fact I would be very worried that we still would have lost. To me it feels like it was an excuse to put the heads down/give Johnson the farewell he deserves.

Personally, I am lost for words. Not really sure where to go from here.

Anyone?

***

EDIT March 8th post-Scotland's capitulation to France.

Come hither one and all and we shall drink our sorrows away...

***
EDIT February 8th post-Scotland's capitulation to England & Ireland

I was right all along.

***

I got this in early because I did not want to see anybody from any nation suggest for any minute that Scotland has a chance of doing anything other than :

a) Cleaning their dirties in a smeg [White Wash]
b) Making lots of soup this winter [wooden spoon]
c) Scraping a win against Italy , in the dying seconds after a urine poor performance , which still might result in "b)" anyway.

No they did not beat Ireland.  
No they did not beat England.
No they did not beat France.  
No they did not beat Wales.  

They might *look* like they are going to win to any outsiders no privy to the Scotland set up, but I guarantee you no sensible Scottish fan will be expecting anything but a, b & c this season.

Why?

• We have an interim coach (for over a year!!!)who is more worried about what he says on camera than apparently coaching a sensible game plan
  
• Our breakdown is awful
  
• We have the psychological hardness of my nan - you don't know my nan but that's not good
  
• Our best players are either never played in position, not allowed to play in the XXIII at all, or are just awful at the moment. Not making the injury excuse because frankly it doesn't apply with exception of 2 key players that might be back in time. Happens in every squad
  
• etc, etc (feel free to add to this list)
  

So look, when we are compiling our 6N predictions this year, can we just for once all agree on something?

1. AN Other
2. AN Other
3. AN Other
4. AN Other
5. Maybe Scotland
6. Probably Scotland

Anyone mentions "dark horses" and "Scotland" in the same sentence without a negation clause in there somewhere (and you KNOW what I mean) I am getting our the knuckle dusters    

BigGee wrote:

Captain_Sensible wrote:

BigGee wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:Potential A team (obviously dependent on Scotland selection):

1 Welsh
2 Hall/Lawson
3 Kalman
4 Gilchrist
5 Gray jnr
6 Harley
7 Grant
8 Wilson
9 Pyrgos
10 Tonks
11 Brown
12 Taylor
13 Messiah
14 Fife
15 Cuthbert

Pretty decent team, but we're starting to run out of tighteads and 12s!

I don't think that team will be far away and I will stick to my guns and say Hamilton won't be in it!

I think Tonks may bench for the full team and I fancy Heathcote to play standoff. I wonder about those 2 London Irish boys who were in the squad last time. I am sure they will be floating around the A squad somewhere. Kennedy and SHC may be in the reckoning for the scrum half position as well, they are going to be the players for the future , not Pyrgos.

I think Bennett will start off in the A's, due to his missed debut in the autumn and his recent lack of game time but there is still a place to play for at OC in the full team that no one currently is really putting their hand up for. It is there for him if he really wants it!

I think the management will want to pair up Scott and Dunbar in the centres as soon as possible. Bennett will have to fight very hard for a look in.

I guess that is how it should be.

Dunbar has not really proved himself at international level either and while he can play both, I think he is a better IC. One good game in the A's, just like Hogg a couple of years ago could be all it takes. Look what happened to him after that. It is all to play for!

Genuine competition in these positions is not something we are used to. It can only be to Scotland's benefit.

He did well on the tour last summer. That was the first time in a long time when I felt we actually had a threatening, creative centre combo. The one thing about Dunbar at 13 is that he might lack a half yard of pace, but that can be compensated for with good position. Plus, he's a tank. If Scott puts him in space, he'll be hard to bring down, and he has the distribution to bring in our back three once he's made the break or half break.

Dunbar is a really good player and had a great season last year, making a well deserved international debut. He has not quite hit the same heights this year yet, probably partly due to injury and part due to the general malaise amongst the Glasgow backs.

Probably due more to his bad luck than anything else he is not the incumbent yet, in the way that Scott is at IC, who would need to play himself out of the team.

OC and fly half are the 2 positions in the back line that are up for grabs. If anyone could just put together a good run of games there then they would be playing in that position up to and through the world cup.

BigGee wrote:Dunbar is a really good player and had a great season last year, making a well deserved international debut. He has not quite hit the same heights this year yet, probably partly due to injury and part due to the general malaise amongst the Glasgow backs.

Probably due more to his bad luck than anything else he is not the incumbent yet, in the way that Scott is at IC, who would need to play himself out of the team.

OC and fly half are the 2 positions in the back line that are up for grabs. If anyone could just put together a good run of games there then they would be playing in that position up to and through the world cup.

Completely agree with the highlighted bit. I'm sure the management have their favourites for those two slots, but anything can happen.

Soooooooooo

Is Dunbar a 12 or a 13? different folk have different opinions!

He’s a 12, but more of a 13 than Matt Scott is, and could potentially do well at 13, so worth trying I think.

Just a shame he’s not going to play there with his club very often.

tigertattie wrote:Soooooooooo

Is Dunbar a 12 or a 13? different folk have different opinions!

Well, he's both. He's a slightly better 12 than 13, but given we have Scott at 12, and limited options at 13, I'm more than happy to see him play at 13.

tigertattie wrote:Soooooooooo

Is Dunbar a 12 or a 13? different folk have different opinions!

He is fundamentally a 12, just lacks that little bit of extra pace to be a truly world level 13, but he is defensively sound, positions well, understands angles and can distribute well. He is probably a better option at 13 than many of the others who have occupied that position over the past few years and may be our best option now. However he will still be playing out of position.

Bennett on the other hand is a 13 who has been known to play at 12. He may be the player with the greater potential in that position but I would agree with the doubters that he has not quite showed himself ready for international rugby yet. I still very much hope that he will get there, maybe even this season.

It's such a shame that Joe Ansbro got injured, he and Scott could have made a very good centre pairing for Scotland.
When does SJ announce the 6N squad anyway?

MacKnocked-on wrote:It's such a shame that Joe Ansbro got injured, he and Scott could have made a very good centre pairing for Scotland.
When does SJ announce the 6N squad anyway?

Wednesday.

Bennett is definitely a 13. His greatest skill is timing his run onto the ball and changing direction - looking for space rather than contact. Dunbar is more physical but slightly less sharp in terms of pace.

My view is that we'll see the following options transpire in future:

12 - Scott/Horne/Taylor
13 - Dunbar/Bennett/Fife (and poor Alex Grove)

To my mind those options represent the right skillsets in the right positions. What's great about both Scott and Horne is that they are solid as well as skillful. I expect the best combination of the above will come down to who clicks together, as much as the talent of the individual players in question.

I thought Scott and Dunbar looked pretty decent in the summer. That would be my starting point, certainly until Horne recovers, Bennett manages to convince Toonie that he's better than Byron McGuigan and Fife overtakes NDL at 13 (unlikely to happen with Walker and Visser injured, as we have greater need for Fife on the wing).

Big big fan of Dunbar, he's a unit and uses his attributes well.  Doesn't try anything fancy, picks a good line and accelerates onto the ball then tries to get his hands free.

Scott is more of a footballer but has bulk to boot, don't think he's quite as consistent as Dunbar at getting over gain line though.

Would be happy to see them start together, be a very direct centre partnership with the ball but should be defensively solid.

Gentlemen (and ladies), pls may I bring this to your attention: https://www.606v2.com/t50979-endurance-canoeing-fundraiser-dw2014#2472430 - thank you

This year's 6N squad should be interesting. Does SJ pick a squad to compete in the here and now or does he look to introduce/develop players and combinations for the World Cup next year?
SJ's famous "Nobody wants to die" comment was obviously about the need to experiment even if that meant losing and it would seem that he used the AI's to allow players like NDL to make a case for their continued presence in a Scotland squad. I have a feeling now will be the time to try out players who could/should be looking to be in the squad next year.
From the MFL; Gilchrist, Fife, Brown and Tonks need to be looked at, and possibly Cuthbert but I think he's behind Tonks and Maitland at 15.
From Glasgow Gray, Bennet, Wilson, Fusaro, Dunbar at 13,Ryder. It's a shame that Horne and Murchie (to a lesser extent) are injured.
Kieran Low and Blair Cowan need to be tried and tested too. Duncan Taylor seems to be viewed as a sticking plaster to plug any gaps but should be given a chance to show what he can do in his preferred position. Which is?
Team for Ireland
1. Grant best prop we have
2. McArthur we can't keep waiting for Ford to learn to throw or hook
3. Low I think a move to Exeter will re-energize him
4. Gray R
5. Swinson with Gray J on the bench
6. Brown6
7. Cowan/Low got to see them
8. Wilson
9. Pyrgos We know Laidlaw is the first choice by a mile come RWC time but let's look at back ups
10 Jackson or Weir pick one and stick with him for all 5 matches FFS let Tonks come on as a late replacement at some point to see what he can do.
11. Fife.
12 Dunbar we know what Scott can do
13. Taylor see how it works, Scott on the bench, but Bennet needs to start playing if he's to feature next year.
For the back three we are very fortunate in having, when fit, Hogg, Visser, Seymour, Maitland and Schlong. Brown should also have a chance to show what he can do.
I think that for people like Roddy Grant and Rev Murray the World Cup is a bridge too far. We know the majority of the squad but there are places which can be filled by younger players but they have to start playing sooner rather than later.

Jeezo pip, what have you been smoking with that team selection??

This 6N is got to be about establishing our first team and giving them as much time together as possible before the WC – I really can’t see him experimenting that much!   

See, you become an Administrator and you go all establishment. Conservative in your team selection and you accuse upright members of the community of imbibing in nefarious substances.
Who would you put in the front row? If you say Ford and the good doctor I will point out that my club may be touring to MFL land at Easter and I'll find out where you live.
Second Row The Warriors coaching staff were "encouraged" to get young Gray in the first team as soon as they did in order that he would have some experience by next year. Richie, if he gets back to his best, is our best second row and Swinson is the form lock at the moment.
Back Row I realise Kellybrows at 6 is rather heretical, yes Dozer is the incumbent at 8 but you need to see who could cover if he gets injured. Cowan/Low were fast tracked into the AI's so they need to be given gametime sooner rather than later. But let's not start the back row debate because Rennie-Beattie-Barclay, Killer B's, Brown-Dozer-Strauss... we would be here all year.
Scrummie Who would you play if Wee Greg is injured? I'm not sure Cooseater will be injury free by the end of next season so you've got to give Pyrgos a go.
10 Don't even go there. Seriously don't even try to justify Tonks after 15 minutes as a stand off.
12-13 Scott-Dunbar-Taylor-Messiah will all almost certainly be in the squad. Which presents an unusual problem for us: Scott has been excellent at 12, Dunbar has been a revelation at 12 for Glasgow and looked good at 13 for Scotland, Taylor wins MOMs at Sarries (no mean feat) and our coach in waiting is a big fan of the Messiah. What will we learn by playing Scott-Dunbar in the 6N's? If Peter Horne gets back to where he was then he will be there or thereabouts too.
Back Three I think Fife looks a prospect and should be given his chance earlier than later. Hogg, Visser, Seymour, Maitland and Schlong should all be in the squad too. Don't you think Brown deserves a chance?
So maybe I'm being dense, or MrsPip has slipped my evening medication into my porridge but my selection seems to make sense to me.

I like at how you immediately jump to the conclusion that my main grievance is that I am contesting the number of Edinbrugh players in your team!

I just don't agree that the 6N should be about experiementing. When has a team ever done that in a 6N?? We've got a summer tour to do that. 6N is about winning games - you always put your best team out.

With regards to your specific points:

Front row - I know that Ford is the devil to you weegies, but he is genuinely on the best form I've seen him in for a long time. Edinburgh's lineout has been excellent this season, and even the most one eyed weegie could hardly claim the same about theirs. To reiterate - I am not saying pick Ford at all costs, but McAruthur's form just now isn't exactly demanding that SJ picks him. Ford looks like he's even learnt to hook - it's obviously taken him a bit of time but he's getting there.

Back row - my main cocern here is that you've suggested Low - a 6 / second row - as a viable option at 7. If anyone is going to play 7 other than KB it is Barclay, Rennie, Grant or Fusaro. Cowan could play there, but he would have been involved in the AIs if SJ was seriously considering him. A team I think is the place for him.

Scrum half - If Laidlaw and Cusiter are fit they will be in the team for the 6N. Pyrgos isn't a new internationalist anymore and has had a few caps - we know what he can do, and he's fairly average scrummy.

Fly half - my opinion on this is anyone but Jackson. In Tonks' 6 games at fly half he has looked far more assure than Jackson ever has. My preference is Weir being our number 1 stand off - Jackson or Tonks on the bench.

Centre -

What will we learn by playing Scott-Dunbar in the 6N's

Are you really saying that 3 games together is enough for them to get to know each other at international level?? If fit they've got to play together every game this 6N - and with the same stand off.

Back 3 - Visser/Shlong, Maitland and Hogg are by far our best back 3. Seymour, Fife and Brown have all been good this season, but there's a lot of competition here. I'd be happy for any of them to get their chance.


So there you go - to reiterate, the 6N is not the time for experimenting with half the team.

RDW, Ford hooks with his nose! Even in his most opaque utterings SJ has never suggested this is a good thing for an international player to do.
Yes Low is a 6 but do you think SJ is going to let that stop him playing him, or Strokes or Kellybrows or Dozer at 7?
If not Pyrgos as our third choice 9 then who? As in who is actually playing first team rugby just now?
I'll agree with you that Weir at 10 for all five matches would not be a bad thing. Then Jackson, then Horne, then Richie Vernon then me then Tonks.
Centre isn't too much of a problem: give one paring the 6N and the other the summer tour.
See now we're in full agreement that I was right all along.  

Genuine question – other than his lack of gamtime, what’s your issue with Tonks at 10? He’ll have played 6 games there before the 6N, 3 of which were in the HK – the highest level of rugby you can get below international. In those games he has looked very good at 10 – strong defence, excellent kicking and can get the ball through his hands well. The fact that you joke that you’d take Vernon at 10 over him suggests that you do not see him as an option whatsoever, which I can’t fathom.

You ask who are 3rd choice 9 is – what about our 3rd choice ten? Heathcoat, who has barely played for Bath?

I probably know the answer (he plays for Edinburgh), but if there is anything else I would like to hear it…

Sorry jimbo, but the 6N is about winning every game and starting your best possible XV in every game. Getting into a winning habit is more important than sending on some random players to 'see how they do'.

Is Heathcote really so out of favour that we would contemplate someone who, whilst talented, has played 6 games at fly half in his professional life? Surely this breaks FES' patented 100 Appearances Or More rule?

6 nations is not the time for experimenting, play the strongest team possible and let them build an understanding.

For me this would be:

Grant
Ford
Low
R.Gray
Swinson
Brown – (will probably be either Beattie or Strokosh)
Rennie (if fit, Barclay if not.  Will probably be Brown though)
Denton
Laidlaw
Weir/Jackson (hard to say who is actually better at this level, given Weir’s not played much and looked so-so when he has and Jackson is a mixed bag too)  Would like to see Tonks given a chance at somepoint (probably off the bench) as he seems to have taken to playing 10 quite well for Edinburgh and will have his club 9 & 12 beside him.
Lamont
Scott
Dunbar
Maitland
Hogg

SJ stuck Beattie at 6 against Italy and I think that he likes 6. Beattie 7. Brown 8. Denton, not really caring about the breakdown as the great man seems to do.

George Carlin wrote:Is Heathcote really so out of favour that we would contemplate someone who, whilst talented, has played 6 games at fly half in his professional life? Surely this breaks FES' patented 100 Appearances Or More rule?

Worth remembering that Tonks isn't a fresh faced young player - this is probably his 5th season as a pro, and I have some recollection of previous interviews of him saying he's played 10 in the past at Northampton.

With regards to Heathcoat, he really has barely featured this year.

I suspect for the games where we think we’re going to have to focus on the breakdown we’ll play Brown, Stroker and Dents and for the other games….Italy…we’ll play Beattie, Brown and Dents

I agree. 6Ns is about putting the team out that gives you the best chance of winning games. The summer tour is where you try your fringe players. The AIs is where you give your fringe players who impressed a shot at playing with the more established boys.

Laidlaw and the glassman are the two best 9s we have at our disposal at the moment so they are the guys you select for the 6Ns. The problem with Pyrgos is that he has been tried and was, well, rather dull. If you are wanting to experiment with up and coming youngsters then you need to look at Kennedy and Sam H-C.

There is not a player in the Scotland Sqaud currently that I see retiring before the WC. Every player has the right to be picked and the best players are the ones that should be picked, We need a solid team to build on for the WC. Its not the time to start bringing in a wave of new players. Thats not to say that if Bennett or Pyrgos or the like come into a vein of form and become the best player in thier position that they should be over-looked for selection!

RDW_Scotland wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Is Heathcote really so out of favour that we would contemplate someone who, whilst talented, has played 6 games at fly half in his professional life? Surely this breaks FES' patented 100 Appearances Or More rule?

Worth remembering that Tonks isn't a fresh faced young player - this is probably his 5th season as a pro, and I have some recollection of previous interviews of him saying he's played 10 in the past at Northampton.

With regards to Heathcoat, he really has barely featured this year.

Apparently not for a couple of years, but here is a quote from Tonks following his first game for us at 10

"It was obviously a little bit new; I have played there in the past but not for a little while. At Northampton, I played a few games, mainly second-team games, at 10. When I was younger, I did a season in the Championship with Nottingham, playing fly-half, so I have done it before. But not at this level."

http://www.heraldscotland.com/sport/rugby/edinburghs-search-for-a-no10-may-now-be-over.22975986

RDW_Scotland wrote:I like at how you immediately jump to the conclusion that my main grievance is that I am contesting the number of Edinbrugh players in your team!

I
Front row - I know that Ford is the devil to you weegies, but he is genuinely on the best form I've seen him in for a long time.

I do agree Ford is finding some form, I even witnessed him hook a ball on Saturday, although it may have been by accident.

However, we did also see some of the "old" Ford, notable a couple of line out lost when we were in the opposition 22 are the things which spring to mind. I don't think Scotland can afford to lose those type of attacking opportunities and unfortunately, with Ford, it happens all too ofter.

EWT Spoons wrote:6 nations is not the time for experimenting, play the strongest team possible and let them build an understanding.

For me this would be:

Grant
Ford
Low
R.Gray
Swinson
Brown – (will probably be either Beattie or Strokosh)
Rennie (if fit, Barclay if not.  Will probably be Brown though)
Denton
Laidlaw
Weir/Jackson (hard to say who is actually better at this level, given Weir’s not played much and looked so-so when he has and Jackson is a mixed bag too)  Would like to see Tonks given a chance at somepoint (probably off the bench) as he seems to have taken to playing 10 quite well for Edinburgh and will have his club 9 & 12 beside him.
Lamont
Scott
Dunbar
Maitland
Hogg

I think this is pretty close to our strongest XV. However, Ford is just too brittle to be our first choice hooker. By which I mean, as I have said before, on his best days he will hit his jumpers 99% of the time but you know the ones he will miss will be on our try line or theirs. Sadly, that is the most consistent aspect of his throwing.

RDW - HC rugby is high intensity but still way below International level.

In saying that, unless we are going for the Grandslam, I'd be tempted to give Tonks a run against Wales.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:RDW - HC rugby is high intensity but still way below International level.

Can't agree with that - plenty players and coaches have commented in the past about HK intensity sometimes rivaling international. I'm not saying Edinburgh's games have, but they have been extremely physical and definitely not 'way below' international level.

If Tonks was 21 and only played 6 games I'd understand it, but as I said he's an experienced guy and the fact that he's played so well in high profile games (he was very good in the 1872 as well) suggests he's more than capable.

Ah Tattie, you are straying into the mindset of give so and so a chance before the world cup and the consensus here is that the 6N is not the place to do that. Can you tell that I think a friendly during the off season is not ideal preparation for the hurly burly of a real competition?
p.s. great to see you at Sandy Park on Saturday, very friendly bunch the Chiefs fans weren't they?

jimbopip wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:6 nations is not the time for experimenting, play the strongest team possible and let them build an understanding.

For me this would be:

Grant
Ford
Low
R.Gray
Swinson
Brown – (will probably be either Beattie or Strokosh)
Rennie (if fit, Barclay if not.  Will probably be Brown though)
Denton
Laidlaw
Weir/Jackson (hard to say who is actually better at this level, given Weir’s not played much and looked so-so when he has and Jackson is a mixed bag too)  Would like to see Tonks given a chance at somepoint (probably off the bench) as he seems to have taken to playing 10 quite well for Edinburgh and will have his club 9 & 12 beside him.
Lamont
Scott
Dunbar
Maitland
Hogg

I think this is pretty close to our strongest XV. However, Ford is just too brittle to be our first choice hooker. By which I mean, as I have said before, on his best days he will hit his jumpers 99% of the time but you know the ones he will miss will be on our try line or theirs. Sadly, that is the most consistent aspect of his throwing.

Who's better though?  

I know there is a lot of hype/hope around McArthur, but when he came on for Ford previously the Lineout didn't improve.  Also SJ has said that it's not down to Ford that the lineout has been failing.  I'd happily replace Ford if there was someone clearly better but at this point in time I'm not 100% convinced there is.  

With that said, I haven’t seen much of Glasgow this season, so can’t comment on whether McArthur has been superb and SJ would be crazy not to include him.  I’m only going from what I’ve seen from the Scotland and Edinburgh matches and happy to be corrected if a strong case can be made for someone else.

jimbopip wrote:Ah Tattie, you are straying into the mindset of give so and so a chance before the world cup and the consensus here is that the 6N is not the place to do that. Can you tell that I think a friendly during the off season is not ideal preparation for the hurly burly of a real competition?

Would you not class the 6 nations as a real competition?

I think the majority on here would, which is why the consensus is not to throw untested players into it.

You misunderstand me Spoons. I think the 6N is the finest competition in the world. It's the summer tours which are friendlies during the off season. If we want to see what someone is made of then the 6N is really the place.

Sadly, my only confident prediction cuts against the universal grain => Kelly Brown - 7

EWT Spoons wrote:

jimbopip wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:6 nations is not the time for experimenting, play the strongest team possible and let them build an understanding.

For me this would be:

Grant
Ford
Low
R.Gray
Swinson
Brown – (will probably be either Beattie or Strokosh)
Rennie (if fit, Barclay if not.  Will probably be Brown though)
Denton
Laidlaw
Weir/Jackson (hard to say who is actually better at this level, given Weir’s not played much and looked so-so when he has and Jackson is a mixed bag too)  Would like to see Tonks given a chance at somepoint (probably off the bench) as he seems to have taken to playing 10 quite well for Edinburgh and will have his club 9 & 12 beside him.
Lamont
Scott
Dunbar
Maitland
Hogg

I think this is pretty close to our strongest XV. However, Ford is just too brittle to be our first choice hooker. By which I mean, as I have said before, on his best days he will hit his jumpers 99% of the time but you know the ones he will miss will be on our try line or theirs. Sadly, that is the most consistent aspect of his throwing.

Who's better though?  

I know there is a lot of hype/hope around McArthur, but when he came on for Ford previously the Lineout didn't improve.  Also SJ has said that it's not down to Ford that the lineout has been failing.  I'd happily replace Ford if there was someone clearly better but at this point in time I'm not 100% convinced there is.  

With that said, I haven’t seen much of Glasgow this season, so can’t comment on whether McArthur has been superb and SJ would be crazy not to include him.  I’m only going from what I’ve seen from the Scotland and Edinburgh matches and happy to be corrected if a strong case can be made for someone else.

+1

Was going to say the same thing - the Glasgow lineout hasn't been functioning well this year so it is not fair to assume that dropping Ford will immediately fix Scotland's lineout problems.

Apologies if I picked you up incorrectly.   

I would agree that the 6 nations is a far harder test, which is why I wouldn’t be using it to give fringe players a run out, or to be more specific,  not starting.  I can absolutely see merit in players getting some time off the bench if that’s what we are looking to do, but I would be using our first choice 15 to start games to get them comfortable playing with each other and build an understanding.  Then once we are comfortably ahead and coasting….could happen…we can then try out some of the fringe lads.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:

jimbopip wrote:

EWT Spoons wrote:6 nations is not the time for experimenting, play the strongest team possible and let them build an understanding.

For me this would be:

Grant
Ford
Low
R.Gray
Swinson
Brown – (will probably be either Beattie or Strokosh)
Rennie (if fit, Barclay if not.  Will probably be Brown though)
Denton
Laidlaw
Weir/Jackson (hard to say who is actually better at this level, given Weir’s not played much and looked so-so when he has and Jackson is a mixed bag too)  Would like to see Tonks given a chance at somepoint (probably off the bench) as he seems to have taken to playing 10 quite well for Edinburgh and will have his club 9 & 12 beside him.
Lamont
Scott
Dunbar
Maitland
Hogg

I think this is pretty close to our strongest XV. However, Ford is just too brittle to be our first choice hooker. By which I mean, as I have said before, on his best days he will hit his jumpers 99% of the time but you know the ones he will miss will be on our try line or theirs. Sadly, that is the most consistent aspect of his throwing.

Who's better though?  

I know there is a lot of hype/hope around McArthur, but when he came on for Ford previously the Lineout didn't improve.  Also SJ has said that it's not down to Ford that the lineout has been failing.  I'd happily replace Ford if there was someone clearly better but at this point in time I'm not 100% convinced there is.  

With that said, I haven’t seen much of Glasgow this season, so can’t comment on whether McArthur has been superb and SJ would be crazy not to include him.  I’m only going from what I’ve seen from the Scotland and Edinburgh matches and happy to be corrected if a strong case can be made for someone else.

+1

Was going to say the same thing - the Glasgow lineout hasn't been functioning well this year so it is not fair to assume that dropping Ford will immediately fix Scotland's lineout problems.

I've had the same impression of McArthur's throwing when I've seen him, in fact Dougie Hall would appear to be a more reliable thrower. Ford has often been way below the standard required but from recent Edinburgh match reports his form seems to be good at present so he'll surely be first choice to start the 6Ns. With all the injury problems other teams are having and the fact that Scotland seem to be getting written off on other forums before we've even started I actually think we've got a good chance of doing well and surprising a team or two if the selection is good.

I actually think Lawson is our best lineout man - shame he's a midget.

jimbopip wrote:This year's 6N squad should be interesting. Does SJ pick a squad to compete in the here and now or does he look to introduce/develop players and combinations for the World Cup next year?
SJ's famous "Nobody wants to die" comment was obviously about the need to experiment even if that meant losing and it would seem that he used the AI's to allow players like NDL to make a case for their continued presence in a Scotland squad. I have a feeling now will be the time to try out players who could/should be looking to be in the squad next year.
From the MFL; Gilchrist, Fife, Brown and Tonks need to be looked at, and possibly Cuthbert but I think he's behind Tonks and Maitland at 15.
From Glasgow Gray, Bennet, Wilson, Fusaro, Dunbar at 13,Ryder. It's a shame that Horne and Murchie (to a lesser extent) are injured.
Kieran Low and Blair Cowan need to be tried and tested too. Duncan Taylor seems to be viewed as a sticking plaster to plug any gaps but should be given a chance to show what he can do in his preferred position. Which is?
Team for Ireland
1. Grant  best prop we have
2. McArthur  we can't keep waiting for Ford to learn to throw or hook
3. Low   I think a move to Exeter will re-energize him
4. Gray R
5. Swinson with Gray J on the bench
6. Brown6
7. Cowan/Low got to see them
8. Wilson
9. Pyrgos  We know Laidlaw is the first choice by a mile come RWC time but let's look at back ups
10 Jackson or Weir pick one and stick with him for all 5 matches FFS let Tonks come on as a late replacement at some point to see what he can do.
11. Fife.
12 Dunbar we know what Scott can do
13. Taylor  see how it works, Scott on the bench, but Bennet needs to start playing if he's to feature next year.
For the back three we are very fortunate in having, when fit, Hogg, Visser, Seymour, Maitland and Schlong.   Brown should also have a chance to show what he can do.
I think that for people like Roddy Grant and Rev Murray the World Cup is a bridge too far. We know the majority of the squad but there are places which can be filled by younger players but they have to start playing sooner rather than later.

  

jimbopip wrote:This year's 6N squad should be interesting. Does SJ pick a squad to compete in the here and now or does he look to introduce/develop players and combinations for the World Cup next year?
SJ's famous "Nobody wants to die" comment was obviously about the need to experiment even if that meant losing and it would seem that he used the AI's to allow players like NDL to make a case for their continued presence in a Scotland squad. I have a feeling now will be the time to try out players who could/should be looking to be in the squad next year.
From the MFL; Gilchrist, Fife, Brown and Tonks need to be looked at, and possibly Cuthbert but I think he's behind Tonks and Maitland at 15.
From Glasgow Gray, Bennet, Wilson, Fusaro, Dunbar at 13,Ryder. It's a shame that Horne and Murchie (to a lesser extent) are injured.
Kieran Low and Blair Cowan need to be tried and tested too. Duncan Taylor seems to be viewed as a sticking plaster to plug any gaps but should be given a chance to show what he can do in his preferred position. Which is?
Team for Ireland
1. Grant  best prop we have
2. McArthur  we can't keep waiting for Ford to learn to throw or hook
3. Low   I think a move to Exeter will re-energize him
4. Gray R
5. Swinson with Gray J on the bench
6. Brown6
7. Cowan/Low got to see them
8. Wilson
9. Pyrgos  We know Laidlaw is the first choice by a mile come RWC time but let's look at back ups
10 Jackson or Weir pick one and stick with him for all 5 matches FFS let Tonks come on as a late replacement at some point to see what he can do.
11. Fife.
12 Dunbar we know what Scott can do
13. Taylor  see how it works, Scott on the bench, but Bennet needs to start playing if he's to feature next year.
For the back three we are very fortunate in having, when fit, Hogg, Visser, Seymour, Maitland and Schlong.   Brown should also have a chance to show what he can do.
I think that for people like Roddy Grant and Rev Murray the World Cup is a bridge too far. We know the majority of the squad but there are places which can be filled by younger players but they have to start playing sooner rather than later.

 

Grant, Ford, Low, Gilchrist, Swinson, Beattie, Grant, Denton, Laidlaw, Weir, Lamont, Scott (If not fit, NDL), Dunbar, Maitland, Hogg > D!ckinson, MacArthur, Cross, Gray, Brown, Cusiter, Heathcote, Taylor / NDL

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:RDW - HC rugby is high intensity but still way below International level.

Can't agree with that - plenty players and coaches have commented in the past about HK intensity sometimes rivaling international.  I'm not saying Edinburgh's games have, but they have been extremely physical and definitely not 'way below' international level.

If Tonks was 21 and only played 6 games I'd understand it, but as I said he's an experienced guy and the fact that he's played so well in high profile games (he was very good in the 1872 as well) suggests he's more than capable.

Not just talking about physicality RDW.

Int'l rugby is way higher in terms of speed, pressure, decision making etc. It is the pinnacle. I agree that the odd one or two HC games would rival some Int'l's (Portugal v USA.......JOKE), but like I say, only one or two.

And I do agree with you about Tonks and I would chuck him in 1 or 2 6N games....(Italy, as the quality of opposition is less than the others and Wales, because by then we're probably going to be on a hiding to nothing).

He's been pretty solid for Edinburgh......fair play to the guy.

jimbopip wrote:Ah Tattie, you are straying into the mindset of give so and so a chance before the world cup and the consensus here is that the 6N is not the place to do that. Can you tell that I think a friendly during the off season is not ideal preparation for the hurly burly of a real competition?
p.s. great to see you at Sandy Park on Saturday, very friendly bunch the Chiefs fans weren't they?

Yes Jimbo was good to meet you and Schiz....just a shame we couldn't have carried on after the match. To be perfectly honest my memory after 5pm has somewhat disappeared but it was a great day and yeah, the SP faithful are always a good craic.

Glad you enjoyed yourselves. Perhaps if you guys are coming over to Cardiff on the 15th March, we can meet up again and have a proper catch up  

Nematode wrote:Grant, Ford, Low, Gilchrist, Swinson, Beattie, Grant, Denton, Laidlaw, Weir, Lamont, Scott (If not fit, NDL), Dunbar, Maitland, Hogg > D!ckinson, MacArthur, Cross, Gray, Brown, Cusiter, Heathcote, Taylor / NDL

Ford , Gilchrist, Grant, NDL at b12!!, Heathcoat on the bench.    
I'm all for giving the opposition a chance but that's taking it to extremes.

jimbopip wrote:

Nematode wrote:Grant, Ford, Low, Gilchrist, Swinson, Beattie, Grant, Denton, Laidlaw, Weir, Lamont, Scott (If not fit, NDL), Dunbar, Maitland, Hogg > D!ckinson, MacArthur, Cross, Gray, Brown, Cusiter, Heathcote, Taylor / NDL

Ford , Gilchrist, Grant, NDL at b12!!, Heathcoat on the bench.    
I'm all for giving the opposition a chance but that's taking it to extremes.

Have you watched any rugby this season?

Edinburgh are playing a really good brand of rugby. Roddy Grant got a turnover which led directly to a try. Ford was carrying well and has been effective in the tackle area. Gilchrist is carrying really well and actually involves himself unlike R Gray atm. And NDL is a decent distributor. Maybe not 23, but should be in the squad.

So Scots fans….let's say Eng;and lose in Paris….do you think Scotland can take them at home? There is almost always a shock result in the 6 Nations and I think this might be it.

Right sounds like 32 man squads, so here's mine:

Props - grant, dickinson, cross, Lowe

Hookers - ford, MacArthur, Hall

Lock - gray, gray, Hamilton, swinson, gilchrist

Back row - brown, strokosh, Denton, Barclay, Beattie, grant

Scrum half - laidlaw, cusiter, pyrgos

Stand off - weir, Jackson

Centre - Scott, Dunbar, de Luca, Dunbar

Back 3 - Shlong, maitland, Hogg, Tonks, Seymour

You've got Dunbar twice.

Guessing you meant either Taylor or Bennett. Most likely Taylor.

Decent squad.

RDW which of the Dunbars is starting and which is in the bench?