Wales 13-8 New Zealand, Cardiff Arms Park, 19 December 1953

Yesterday was the 60th anniversary of Wales last win over the All Blacks, Is there anyone here who watched/listened to it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25433887



Wales 13-8 New Zealand, Cardiff Arms Park, 19 December 1953


Scorers - Wales: Tries: Sid Judd, Ken Jones; Cons: Gwyn Rowlands (2); Pen: Rowlands

New Zealand: Try: Bill Clark; Con: Ron Jarden; Pen: Jarden

Wales: G Williams (London Welsh), KJ Jones (Newport), GM Griffiths (Cardiff), BL Williams (Cardiff, capt), G Rowlands (Cardiff), CI Morgan (Cardiff), WR Willis (Cardiff), person of african descent Williams (Swansea), DM Davies (Somerset Police), CC Meredith (Neath), ER John (Neath), JRG Stephens (Neath), S Judd (Cardiff), JA Gwilliam (Gloucester), RCC Thomas (Swansea)

New Zealand: RWH Scott, AEG Elsom, JM Tanner, RA Jarden, BBJ Fitzpatrick, LS Haig, K Davis, KL Skinner, RC Hemi, IJ Clarke, RA White, GN Dalzell, RC Stuart (capt), WA McCaw, WH Clark

Referee: Dr Peter F Cooper (England)

Did the Wales teams of the 70s never beat the ABs, even with the Williams, Edwards, Bennett, etc.? And what's a p.o.a.d. when one is at home?   

They only played them twice in the 70s As. '72 and "78 according to wiki, with a 6 point and 1 point loss respectively. But no, no win.

Ever seen the movie "Old Scores" ?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0102581/

Yes, it was rubbish.

Cheers, Griff

I heard te All Blacks had a dose of posioning anyway.

Good post...eerie the nostalgia. At that point wales were 3-1 up in the head to heads... so 50 odd years vs 60 isn't too bad.

Both Sean and Brian Fizpatrick are/were old boys of my old school, any way they both did a presentation (about 15 years ago) one morning at assembly, which finished up with them taking questions from the audience.

one kid Asked "Who out of you was the better All Black?"

Sean quickly replied "Well I never lost to Wales."

I was having a good chat with my Granddad today about the 1948 Grand Slam decider against Wales he attended at Ravenhill, plus the 1951-52 Springbok tour of the British Isles.

Different times.

Notch wrote:I was having a good chat with my Granddad today about the 1948 Grand Slam decider against Wales he attended at Ravenhill, plus the 1951-52 Springbok tour of the British Isles.

Different times.

Notch,

Its even different times in my generation now since I first started watching rugby, my first International was 75, I was 8.

When old (legally) enough to drink I loved the old south terrace in the Cardiff Arms Park and the long weekends to Scotland, some of which you never even got anywhere near Edinburgh lol.

When I was a kid and through famly who played at the top level I have been lucky enough to meet my idols after club games and it certainly was a different time when after a game you sore the likes of JPR, Gareth, Pricey, Pask etc etc getting smashed in the club house or smoking like a chimney lol.

I was born on December 3rd that year so at least I was alive when we last beat them!

Something definitely happened in rugby from 1975 onwards between the North and South when mainly the AB's and later the Ozzies and South Africans started slowly but surely inching away from the South.

In my youth we were losing to the Boks (70 and 76) and struggling to win vs the NH sides (72-73-74, Baabaas etc) and in hindsight were still riding off the 60's successes.

For NZ I think it was the new national provincial championship that started in 1976 where sides got regular weekend competition rather than a bunch of local friendly's while waiting for the Ranfurly shield challenge to come around once every 2-3 years or so. Auckland's surge in the 80's and 90's the the Crusaders and sxv then helped blow that gap wider still.

Today's kids are now growing up thinking the AB's are virtually untouchable so it must help our future to have the standards set before they start seriously thinking about the AB jersey.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25433887

I notice the BBC are still trying to peddle the old Andy Haden myth. Sigh.

Well the article got it right...the caption not. Surprised to hear of the Mourie comment. Don't recall that. Not a mourie trait normally.

GloriousEmpire wrote:http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25433887

I notice the BBC are still trying to peddle the old Andy Haden myth. Sigh.

Looks like an interesting article and funnily enough, this is the only thing you can take from it. Don't really see how it's a myth either. The BBC have opted to mention it but it isn't like it gets mentioned anywhere near as often as you mentioning Barnes 2007. Neither of which is really relevant to this day anyway.

The difference is that the Barnes incident is real. The Hayden incident is a fabrication.

GloriousEmpire wrote:The difference is that the Barnes incident is real. The Hayden incident is a fabrication.

Under the current rugby laws only one incident is open to interpretation, and that's the forward pass (that never was) . The other incident is not, which can clearly be seen with the evidence. I'm not bothered though seeing as it happened before I was born, just thought I'd let you know.

Just watched the 2004 Cardiff Arms Park match on youtube. Not recommended viewing for Welsh fans. Murray Mexted is like a senile grandfather gibbering away and the other commentators are left to clear up the mess. Makes for hilarious listening but not so if you're a Welsh fan. Good game of rugby though which turns to helter skelter in the last quarter. Still cannot fathom why Stephen Jones kicks the ball away in the 81st minute after Wales get the ball back. Ineptness from both sides at the finishing stages which may be attributed to the pace of the game.

The Saint wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:The difference is that the Barnes incident is real. The Hayden incident is a fabrication.

Under the current rugby laws only one incident is open to interpretation, and that's the forward pass (that never was) . The other incident is not, which can clearly be seen with the evidence. I'm not bothered though seeing as it happened before I was born, just thought I'd let you know.

Nope. Barnes made upward of 17 decisions favouring France that are even admitted by the FRU. The most shocking one sided performance by a referee in modern history. If anyone other than NZ had been on the tough end of it, there would have been outcry. But since it served the RFU (Barnes boss) nicely, and they hold the aces at the IRB it unsurprisingly had little impact. When even sir Graham Henry suggests it must be match fixing, you know it's serious.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

The Saint wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:The difference is that the Barnes incident is real. The Hayden incident is a fabrication.

Under the current rugby laws only one incident is open to interpretation, and that's the forward pass (that never was) . The other incident is not, which can clearly be seen with the evidence. I'm not bothered though seeing as it happened before I was born, just thought I'd let you know.

Nope. Barnes made upward of 17 decisions favouring France that are even admitted by the FRU. The most shocking one sided performance by a referee in modern history. If anyone other than NZ had been on the tough end of it, there would have been outcry. But since it served the RFU (Barnes boss) nicely, and they hold the aces at the IRB it unsurprisingly had little impact. When even sir Graham Henry suggests it must be match fixing, you know it's serious.

You lost get over it you whinging kiwi

The Saint brought it up, I merely corrected his lack of knowledge.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

The Saint wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:The difference is that the Barnes incident is real. The Hayden incident is a fabrication.

Under the current rugby laws only one incident is open to interpretation, and that's the forward pass (that never was) . The other incident is not, which can clearly be seen with the evidence. I'm not bothered though seeing as it happened before I was born, just thought I'd let you know.

Nope. Barnes made upward of 17 decisions favouring France that are even admitted by the FRU. The most shocking one sided performance by a referee in modern history. If anyone other than NZ had been on the tough end of it, there would have been outcry. But since it served the RFU (Barnes boss) nicely, and they hold the aces at the IRB it unsurprisingly had little impact. When even sir Graham Henry suggests it must be match fixing, you know it's serious.

You lost get over it you whinging kiwi

Funny rainbow...you live amongst them yet a large % of your posts are about whinging kiwis. One would think we should feel privileged having you here at all. Wales beckons perhaps?

What's the Haden myth?

Hayden dived from the final lineout to extract a penalty. The referee Roger Quittenden penalised Geoff wheel for holding down the other AB lock from jumping in the lineout and confirmed that immediately after the match.
The penalty was kicked on full time to five a 13-12 win.
The Welsh have 'chosen' in some quarters to believe the ABs cheated to win the match when in fact the only 'confirmed' cheat was Wheel...not acknowledged as such by being a somewhat less dramatic attempt at it.
Fact is, anyone is allowed to jump from a lineout...just as they are allowed to do an Ashton mercy call when being blocked.
Hayden was and still is a clown for his action. Didn't get him far after that here that's for sure.

I'm perhaps being a bit slow then because that's what the BBC have reported? Haden decided on a bit of a dive and the ref gave the penalty for a push or a barge on someone else.

GloriousEmpire wrote:The Saint brought it up, I merely corrected his lack of knowledge.

No, I merely corrected your terminology. The Hayden incident isn't a myth, it's a fact which one can from the footage and the comments on the matter. It's all water under the bridge now, but if you're going to whinge about it and refer to it as a myth don't get too upset over somebody referring to the Barnes 2007 incident.

The 'myth' is that Hadens action secured the penalty. The 'fact ' is that the 07 pass was forward ....but not given.

Exactly. I'm not sure how NZ beating Wales fair and square is equivalent to NZ being cheated by dodgy refereeing in 2007 anyway, but if you're suggesting Barnes was wound up and sent out to deliberately deny NZ as some form of misguided retribution for NZ success and to alleviate northern feelings of injustice over their own failings - well perhaps your post speaks volumes.

Hmmm, it seems there are a lot of myths in rugby these days.

I guess people are/were just shocked at the blatant attempt by Haden to try and con the ref. Having the pen for something else doesn't detract from that I guess.

I expect he was attempting to bring to the referees attention all the illegal pushing in the lineout by Wales. Job done.

Precisely. He got the job done. Planned to cheat didn't get pinged and if it brought the actual pen to the attention of the ref so be it. One of those dark things in the game we love to talk about like the hand of Back.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Precisely. He got the job done. Planned to cheat didn't get pinged and if it brought the actual pen to the attention of the ref so be it. One of those dark things in the game we love to talk about like the hand of Back.

Absolutely... Haden was a fool. Had his part in the foolish cavaliers tour and tried unsuccessfully to create a pro version of the game in the 80s.

Regarding the 2007 pass. Take a look at the two tries scored by Habana versus the ABs this year. Both were from a point to point at least a yard forward. Then look at the 07 one if you can be bothered. That was propelled forward where the Habana ones were subject to momentum. TMO process today would have ruled the try out. I challenge anyone to refute that.

Suspect the McAlistair yellow card would also have been ruled out by a tmo - that led directly to the other French score.

Contrast it with the England "not enough obstruction" this year.

Taylorman wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

The Saint wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:The difference is that the Barnes incident is real. The Hayden incident is a fabrication.

Under the current rugby laws only one incident is open to interpretation, and that's the forward pass (that never was) . The other incident is not, which can clearly be seen with the evidence. I'm not bothered though seeing as it happened before I was born, just thought I'd let you know.

Nope. Barnes made upward of 17 decisions favouring France that are even admitted by the FRU. The most shocking one sided performance by a referee in modern history. If anyone other than NZ had been on the tough end of it, there would have been outcry. But since it served the RFU (Barnes boss) nicely, and they hold the aces at the IRB it unsurprisingly had little impact. When even sir Graham Henry suggests it must be match fixing, you know it's serious.

You lost get over it you whinging kiwi

Funny rainbow...you live amongst them yet a large % of your posts are about whinging kiwis. One would think we should feel privileged having you here at all. Wales beckons perhaps?

I am a citizen so kiwi too, yes you should feel privileged so buy me something. I see the kiwi whinge everyday pal but not so much as this place.

and still you lost in 2007 to the better side, something you ain't got the balls to confess to. Well done France.

rainbow-warrior wrote:

Taylorman wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

The Saint wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:The difference is that the Barnes incident is real. The Hayden incident is a fabrication.

Under the current rugby laws only one incident is open to interpretation, and that's the forward pass (that never was) . The other incident is not, which can clearly be seen with the evidence. I'm not bothered though seeing as it happened before I was born, just thought I'd let you know.

Nope. Barnes made upward of 17 decisions favouring France that are even admitted by the FRU. The most shocking one sided performance by a referee in modern history. If anyone other than NZ had been on the tough end of it, there would have been outcry. But since it served the RFU (Barnes boss) nicely, and they hold the aces at the IRB it unsurprisingly had little impact. When even sir Graham Henry suggests it must be match fixing, you know it's serious.

You lost get over it you whinging kiwi

Funny rainbow...you live amongst them yet a large % of your posts are about whinging kiwis. One would think we should feel privileged having you here at all. Wales beckons perhaps?

I am a citizen so kiwi too, yes you should feel privileged so buy me something.  I see the kiwi whinge everyday pal but not so much as this place.  

Funny. Whenever I'm in NZ, mostly what I encounter is whinging Poms. Sitting around in north shore bars complaining that NZ isn't Britain. Complaining that NZ has real weather and no soccer and that there are too many Maoris being all un-British all over the place.

How ironic.

Not really.

rainbow-warrior wrote:and still you lost in 2007 to the better side, something you ain't got the balls to confess to.  Well done France.

Won yes...scoreboard says so. Better no...dropping their pants very next game says so.
A better side than that AB side would have won the final.

Citizen ay? Cool...
So its cliche time is it?
If you can't beat em...join em...
Have cake and eat it too...
Best of both worlds.

Don't forget to get those haka actions downpat for next year. All of us good kiwis have to stick together now.

Believe it or not the best team in the world can be outplayed; it's not always a conspiracy.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Believe it or not the best team in the world can be outplayed; it's not always a conspiracy.

Equally, the best team in the world can be robbed by one of the worst refereeing displays in history. It can happen. It did happen.

Too much can be made of refs mistakes. Players have much more ability to affect games. Sorry realise it's a wum but in the spirit of the festive period I'm going to say it!

Not sure I agree with that. A referee can send off a player, but a player can't send off a referee.

So it's the ref that have overall say on a match or the players. How many mistakes does a ref make in comparison to the players. I could whine about matches in the past where the ref has made a fair few mistakes but going back and watching the games the players have made a damn site more. I don't suppose we'll get to hear you admit that with your current persona though.

Well in that 2007 France v NZ match overseen by Barnes, the guy made at least 19 mistakes including the yellow card, the missed forward pass and the French ruck infringements that went unpenalised for 60 minutes.

That's twice as many errors as you'd expect an entire team to make in 80 minutes.

lol. You should have a new years resolution to stop being such a moaner!

It was actually you who started the moaning.

Ah. But the trick is not to do it constantly about refs and those mean old English!