The perfect 10 - why is fly half so difficult?

Been thinking about something whilst watching the Heineken this year.
 
I thought that national coaches being unsure as to whom their best fly half is was a problem indigenous to Scotland, but it seems to be a blight that affects a number of countries. Just look at the list below - the arguable incumbent for the 10 shirt underlined and then challengers listed underneath.
 
A. Wales
 
Rhys Priestland
Dan Biggar
Rhys Patchell
James Hook
Jason Tovey
 
B. England
 
Owen Farrell
Freddie Burns
Toby Flood
Danny Cipriani
George Ford
 
C. Scotland
 
Ruraidh Jackson
Duncan Weir
Tom Heathcote
Greig Tonks
Finn Russell
 
D. Ireland
 
Jonathon Sexton
Ian Madigan
Paddy Jackson
JJ Hanrahan
Ian Keatley
 
E. France
 
Frédéric Michalak
François Trinh-Duc
Geoffrey Palis
Rémi Tales
Enzo Selponi
 
Other than Sexton for Ireland, are there any countries where the incumbent is nailed on? I don't think that there is.
 
Doesn't this pose a problem for most teams with the World Cup so close? Or does the fact that there are few standout candidates instead indicate strength in depth and something to be applauded?
 
Rather an agricultural thread but I would be interested to know whether people are worried for their national team.

I wouldn't have Michalak as the French incumbent, even if he were free of injury. If people think Quade Cooper at the start of the season was the definition of flaky, comparing Michalak to a Cadbury's Flaky and people would still choose Michalak as the better incarnation of flaky.

Similarly, I wouldn't have Priestland as the Welsh incumbent. I don't understand Gatland's confidence in this player. Biggar is far from perfect but he doesn't let mistakes go to his head. Priestland seems to wilt when put under pressure.

I think scrum halves can also control games and even though there are more contenders, that's also a position on the international stage where there are issues. However, I think a flyhalf who knows how to pull the strings for his team is an invaluable asset and it's clear most international teams have issues with their respective 10s. It is indeed a worry for teams going into the RWC. In a RWC game, a flyhalf who can reliably kick goals becomes more of an asset than one who opens up games and gets the attack humming simply because the latter is very difficult to achieve. But a flyhalf who can contribute to seeing the team score at vital moments in the game is worth their wait in gold. The loss of Carter in the past caused panic for that very reason. Having players who are capable of stepping in and contributing ease those fears. That goes for any position though.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:I wouldn't have Michalak as the French incumbent, even if he were free of injury. If people think Quade Cooper at the start of the season was the definition of flaky, comparing Michalak to a Cadbury's Flaky and people would still choose Michalak as the better incarnation of flaky.

Similarly, I wouldn't have Priestland as the Welsh incumbent. I don't understand Gatland's confidence in this player. Biggar is far from perfect but he doesn't let mistakes go to his head. Priestland seems to wilt when put under pressure.

I think scrum halves can also control games and even though there are more contenders, that's also a position on the international stage where there are issues. However, I think a flyhalf who knows how to pull the strings for his team is an invaluable asset and it's clear most international teams have issues with their respective 10s. It is indeed a worry for teams going into the RWC. In a RWC game, a flyhalf who can reliably kick goals becomes more of an asset than one who opens up games and gets the attack humming simply because the latter is very difficult to achieve. But a flyhalf who can contribute to seeing the team score at vital moments in the game is worth their wait in gold. The loss of Carter in the past caused panic for that very reason. Having players who are capable of stepping in and contributing ease those fears. That goes for any position though.

  I think that most Scotland fans are now comfortable with their description of Rhubarb Jackson as marginally flakier than a stale croissant in a wind tunnel.
 
It's all right for you, Kia. Carter's lackeys Aaron Cruden and Beauden Barrett would probably start in most of the NH teams with the exception of Ireland.

I would be astounded if Cruden didn't start for Ireland based on recent form

ChequeredJersey wrote:I would be astounded if Cruden didn't start for Ireland based on recent form

Even without the Irish charging early for kicks?   

Makes up for the loss of Nick Evans and an interminable period of struggling at halfback. Teams always go through cycles of having depth and starting issues in certain positions. England, for example, are struggling at centre and Ireland have been embracing the Life After BOD and D'Arcy issue for a while. Sometimes those issues coincide with other teams. Flyhalf is an example of that whereas if you take blindside flanker, there seems to be an embarrassment of riches around the world. But if you take 5 as another example, there are plenty of candidates on offer for each international side but very few inspire much confidence. They don't stand out in a side's weaknesses because they are less visible on display than a flyhalf.

I like the name Rhubarb Jackson. If only Cusiter were still playing, we could make a feast of dessert puns. But maybe we still can. The proof is in the pudding.

A trifle harsh but if Sexton misses any more kicks, he might get the nickname Brandy Snaps. If Priestland receives the blowtorch of pressure, he might receive a soft centre like a Crême Brulée. Quade Cooper is a Bananas Foster who is capable of going up in flames or turning on a flamboyant display. Morné Steyn is a Christmas Pudding where Grandma had a little accident and poured in by mistake half a bottle of brandy: traditional with a big kick to him.

Right, I'm off to lunch...

10 is difficult because of the roles requirements. The 10 must first have a wide range of ball skills...kicking off both feet, passing both sides long and short, agility in running, stepping and some ability to defend. Those are just the pre requisites. Next they must bring individual flair and skill to the role, have an instinct for selecting the right option and executing it successfully.
Then they must complement the teams 'flavour of play'.
Carter has been so successful simply because he covers all that to a high standard. He's not the best kicker, passer, runner etc but does them all better than anyone across the board.

This is where I think some sides fall down. Steyn of SA for example is not the right style for a side looking to open its game up out wide.

Sexton covers most of the requirements well also but amongst it all is able to impose his own style on the game. Priest land has the skills but sadly since the world cup lacks the confidence to either execute or as kia says recover from mistakes.

The rest I think you'll find lack one or more of the basic requirements or fail to apply them successfully. The sxv sets NZ up perfectly for creating depth at 10. Because all our sides play a generally attacking game we base a lot of play around the 10 so have 5 as a base to select from.

I don't believe in the 9 controlling the play. They do to a point, but generally they dont have the space and time the 10 has to apply the options. Its OK if the play is about keeping the ball in front of the forwards but limited to that.

The 10 is about bringing the back line into play, having vision and feel for where the advantages in attack are or could potentially come and initiating whatever's on.

To be successful at all that requires higher levels of skill and confidence than any other position I believe, and generally why very good, consistent 10s are hard to find.

There's also only 1 10in a side. Wingers usually get two shots at a place, and if you're English and a fullback you can play there, both wings Center or even scrum half apparently.

10 is such a pivotal role that one or a run of bad games tends to get exposed and noticed. It's also one of the positions that sees the most action. Add to that it can define the style of play as well.

Lets look at the south ... You have one of the games greats in New Zealand, his placed though is nailed on by history ... Many fans having bleated on about how much better crud is than carter for a whole now.
In aus the nailed on 10 is a total fruitcake that the last coa h wouldn't have near his squad. Argentina just wish it was 2007. I'm sure biltong bek has had more than enough to whinge about the sAffer on.

A lack of flawless 10s is not unique to the north. I do suspect though that how much in jeopardy some of these guys ( especially Farrell ) place is in is more in the mind of us inter refs than it is the coaches.

Crudens better than DC for now because DCs being plagued with injuries and can't reach the standards he used to. But cruden does have a better attack the line game than carter, even if other areas arent as good. Cooper has had to undergo a personality change to reach his higher standards this year and ended the year on a high. He's a class player though and no one has a better wide flat pass.
Sextons more the all rounder like DC but not at the same level. Farrell and steyn are more in the kick first mould and don't have a lot of running the line skills playing more as positional or link players.

Is there really a perfect 10? All 10's make mistakes dont they? I think it depends if the 10 is expected to take the kicks at goal. Carter and Wilkinson was probably the (Perfect) 10, around player Passer, goal kicker, tackler.

Who would you say is the best 10 in the NH? Sexton, Farrell pretty much neck and neck.
with the rest not very far behind them...Thing is when a team as an establish 10, they (the teams) dont have much of a back up 10 of the same standard. That is why teams often suffer when the first choice 10 goes off injured.

maj,

I agree with you on Carter and Wilko beeing as near to the complete 10 as you can get but I think Sexton is head and shoulders above anything in the NH at the moment.

There really is no comparison between Wilko, who made his name from the boot, and Carter who is the complete article.

Let's not have this argument again

Scratch,

Wilko was far more than just a kicking machine, his defence was second to none his distribution (when England decided to use it) was not far off perfect and his all round committment will go some way to be matched.

Sexton is not the player he was a year ago IMO, he's one of the few negatives for Irish rugby recently. If he continues to play in France and while the likes of Madigan, PJ an JJ continually improve, I don't think he'll be nailed on for all that long. And for all his attacking talents he has to improve his goalkicking to be world class, as an Irish supporter you don't feel very secure when he lines a crucial kick up..

Part of the criteria I referred to above was about the flavour of the team. DC is perfect for the AB flavour, wilko prefect for England's. Neither would suit each others side as well. A lot of dcs skills would be wasted with england and his goalkicking drop goal abilities possibly fall below wilkos standard a shade. Wilko wouldn't run the AB back line as cleanly and as variably as DC does so its not just about the player alone.

Part of the problem for many teams is 10 is part of many other problems. A perfect team is more difficult than a perfect 10. A perfect team does not require the perfect fifteen of players but it does imply a team that is aware of what the other components are doing. An ideal 10 responds to what the players around are doing. Cruden dropping a deft kick with the left boot for Savea to run onto is not dictated by Cruden. Both players have to be in tune with what the other player is thinking. Farrell with his centre partners is a good example of that absence of thinking. The blame gets laid on Farrell but just as it takes two to tango it takes two to ruck up a backline move.

Yes kia and that all comes back to training, preparation and overall experience playing with eachother. Savea will just know what is possible and may not even know cruden is going to kick for him as cruden might pick it up late. Savea just needs to know the options a possibility when cruden...or nonu etc... have got the ball and be prepared.

Its not rocket science but it is the difference between sides that work together as a team rather than as individuals.

Was rewatching the Ellis park match and its also about taking the right option at the right time. Ten minutes into the match with the boks hammering the line FDP elects to kick for Habana but makes such a mess of it kicks it dead.

Another is where Kirchner gets a run at the line and has an open le roux on the right. The ABs know there's less than ten per cent chance of Kirchner passing as he's 'locked in' by then...straight and hard all he knows...doesn't have either the skill or trust to set a pass to the last player. ..so they just gang up on Kirchner.

For me the primary reason for the AB dominance is the standard of back play. We have 3 10s capable if playing test rugby. Probably 8 or 9 outside backs and three or four halfbacks...weepu...Ellis along with the squad three. The ABs aren't at all dominant up front, at the breakdowns, lineouts or scrums but their strength lies in their skills as players, passers, tacklers, abilities to link with eachother and the backs...to continue momentum.

It's quite satisfying reading at the moment for an Irish fan isn't it? Only England have better depth at 10 and we have arguably the best in the Northern Hemisphere. New Zealand have a couple of 10s better than Sexton, Cooper is probably better too- could argue the toss over the Saffer 10s but we would kill for a 9 with the quality of Fourie Du Preez or Ruan Pienaar so thats a bit hollow.

Just don't do an article on 9s GC! The smile will be wiped off my face just as quickly!

You could certainly do worse than Conor Murray. Beyond that though maybe Ireland are a bit short of quality. Though I have been hearing very good reports of the Connacht 9 (Marmion?)

Wales are looking worryingly thin in either position. Well maybe not short of options but not a single bloody one of them stepping up to seriously challenge on a consistent basis   

Why is flyhalf so difficult...well you have to be excellent at everything for starters. Running with ball in hand, passing, being creative, reading the game (and knowing exactly what to do when), defence, territorial positional kicking, penalty kicking, up and unders, grubbers, cross field kicks. You also have to have nerves of steel and be a great communicator. Then even if you are good at all these things you then have to a good pack and a good set of backs outside you otherwise you carry the can for not creating anything when your pack is going backwards, your scrum half stares at the ball for 30 secs then crabs 5 metres before passing and your number 12 and 13 have the communication and creativity of blind rhinos. So if you are an awesome all round footballer, you have a mean set of forwards with solid set piece and quick recycling, a scrum half who loves to get the ball away quick and fast and a creative 12/13 who get over the gain line you then have half a chance to look good at 10...HOWEVER after all this if you have an ex rugby league defence coach as your backline/attack guru, you will be told to stand deep, kick the leather off the ball and defend all day...therefore as the 10 the media will blame you for it.

Interesting state at the moment in world rugby. I think every single nation (with the exception of Australia, who have now evolved) is in a position where their second choice 10, is actually their best...

If you want to find the perfect 10 then look at Ruaridh Jackson and do the opposite of 70% of what he does, he seems to want to do everything straight away rather than wait for the right moment, I'm not sure if it's a result of a belief in himself a "maverick" or as "creative" which seems to be a word used in Scotland in recent years to describe poor players. He has a good pass but so often uses it as the wrong time almost to prove that he can do it rather than to get tries.

123456789 wrote:If you want to find the perfect 10 then look at Ruaridh Jackson and do the opposite of 70% of what he does, he seems to want to do everything straight away rather than wait for the right moment, I'm not sure if it's a result of a belief in himself a "maverick"  or as "creative" which seems to be a word used in Scotland in recent years to describe poor players. He has a good pass but so often uses it as the wrong time almost to prove that he can do it rather than to get tries.

Typical...'123456789' looking for the perfect 10...  ...Happy new year!

By the next world cup Sexton will be under pressure to keep his place with Ireland. Jackson is improving rapidly and Madigan just has to improve his game management. Hanrahan is already better than Sexton in many areas and is living up to the hype.


Whatever happened to Danny Cipriani with England? He looked good when I saw him so was it hype or does he have an attitude problem?

profitius wrote:By the next world cup Sexton will be under pressure to keep his place with Ireland. Jackson is improving rapidly and Madigan just has to improve his game management. Hanrahan is already better than Sexton in many areas and is living up to the hype.


Whatever happened to Danny Cipriani with England? He looked good when I saw him so was it hype or does he have an attitude problem?

Well cips may finally be getting back on the right track. But recovery from a bad ankle injury and attitude havent helped

[quote="profitius"]By the next world cup Sexton will be under pressure to keep his place with Ireland. Jackson is improving rapidly and Madigan just has to improve his game management. Hanrahan is already better than Sexton in many areas and is living up to the hype.


Whatever happened to Danny Cipriani with England? He looked good when I saw him so was it hype or does he have an attitude problem?[/quote


Sexton is good enough to come down here and play for the Auckland blues, and we would return him to Ireland as a better player than he ever was. cant think of many other no 10s in the Northern hemisphere that I would say that. or put it another way Jonathan Sexton by the next World cup could be one of the most influential no 10s in World Rugby.

lostinwales wrote:

profitius wrote:By the next world cup Sexton will be under pressure to keep his place with Ireland. Jackson is improving rapidly and Madigan just has to improve his game management. Hanrahan is already better than Sexton in many areas and is living up to the hype.


Whatever happened to Danny Cipriani with England? He looked good when I saw him so was it hype or does he have an attitude problem?

Well cips may finally be getting back on the right track. But recovery from a bad ankle injury and attitude havent helped

I recently received a pretty thorough update of Cipriani's old ankle injury.  It was no surprise to learn his injury was much worse than reported.  And consequently, my opinion is his recovery was rushed.  I have to wonder if the ankle is right, even now.  My practice in Jersey handles our pro athletes differently.

I always wonder why injuries in Rugby aren't more thoroughly reported or more details available.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

profitius wrote:By the next world cup Sexton will be under pressure to keep his place with Ireland. Jackson is improving rapidly and Madigan just has to improve his game management. Hanrahan is already better than Sexton in many areas and is living up to the hype.


Whatever happened to Danny Cipriani with England? He looked good when I saw him so was it hype or does he have an attitude problem?[/quote


Sexton is good enough to come down here and play for the Auckland blues, and we would return him to Ireland as a  better player than he ever was. cant think of many other no 10s in the Northern hemisphere that I would say that. or put it another way Jonathan Sexton by the next World cup could be one of the most influential no 10s in World Rugby.

Right, so that would look like:
9 Weepu
10 Sexton
11 Halai
12 Nonu
13 Saili
14 B. Marshall
15 Piutau

Looks rubbish.
 

George Carlin wrote:
C. Scotland
 
Ruraidh Jackson
Duncan Weir
Tom Heathcote
Greig Tonks
Finn Russell

You forgot Stuart Hogg......  

I have always thought throwing in guy at flyhalf for debut was wrong unless he's a once in a generation talent... its like throwing in a newbie at opener at cricket you just shouldn't do it. The diff between club and test rugby is still huge. 70kg heavier packs etc etc. The speed of the ball is quicker, time is less.
The very best of the most recent era mainly started out elsewhere... Larkham, Wilkinson, Giteau, Carter. Get them comfortable with test rugby. Then work them in.

Thought Farrell was brought in correctly with Hodgson but still needs help as he's not a natural player of the ball.

In the old days you hardly ever saw guys get charged down from first receiver. These days defences are a lot more organised, players are pin pointed and are tactically aware.

Laurie he'd look far better in the Crusaders. With Carter out we could do with a Sexton type player and red and black are sexy colours. Besides, Canterbury and perfect 10s go hand in hand. Carter, Merths, kia... the list is endless!

Gregor Townsend - the most imperfect perfect 10 to play the game!

In my lifetime Dan Carter is comfortably the most complete 10 I've seen, closely followed by Andrew Mehrtens and the two Australias, Lynagh and Larkham. I'd say that currently Cruden is top of the pile, closely followed by Sexton.

Note I'm talking about complete players. There have been plenty "mercurial" 10's, including Carlos Spencer, Quade Cooper, Freddie Michalak, Thomas Castagneide and the aforementioned Townsend, all great players, and plenty "hoof the leather off the ball 10's", such as Jonny Wilkinson, Ronan O'Gara, Rob Andrew, Thierry Lacroix, Stephen Jones, Morne Steyn and Neil Jenkins, again, all top international players.

Very few seem to have a complete skillset.

Most of the media spotlight is on the 10. This means that whatever weaknesses they have are magnified and exaggerated. If other players don't perform it is still generally the 10 that gets most of the criticism. On the other hand sometimes a lot of the glory goes to the 10 - (more often than not it's the other way round though.

If the pack is on top, the 10 supposedly only performed well because he had an armchair ride but conversely if the pack are in trouble the 10 is blamed for not performing well and creating something.

The 10 is generally criticised because there always the belief that there is someone who can do better than the incumbent. There's always an unrealistic expectation that there is a fly half who can do everything well all the time.

You can also be blamed when you are just following team orders.

Plus of course there is the pressure of being the primary kicker - the points machine. As a 10 it's your job to turn territory and penalties into points.

Oh and if you happen to go through a dip in form you will be ripped into more so than other players.

apparently it's not that difficult...

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/leigh-halfpenny-outside-half-standby-6477449

George Carlin wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

profitius wrote:By the next world cup Sexton will be under pressure to keep his place with Ireland. Jackson is improving rapidly and Madigan just has to improve his game management. Hanrahan is already better than Sexton in many areas and is living up to the hype.


Whatever happened to Danny Cipriani with England? He looked good when I saw him so was it hype or does he have an attitude problem?[/quote


Sexton is good enough to come down here and play for the Auckland blues, and we would return him to Ireland as a  better player than he ever was. cant think of many other no 10s in the Northern hemisphere that I would say that. or put it another way Jonathan Sexton by the next World cup could be one of the most influential no 10s in World Rugby.

Right, so that would look like:
9 Weepu
10 Sexton
11 Halai
12 Nonu
13 Saili
14 B. Marshall
15 Piutau

Looks rubbish.
 

No Piutau on the wing and Benji at fullback.

quinsforever wrote:apparently it's not that difficult...

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/leigh-halfpenny-outside-half-standby-6477449

Can't see why 1/2p doesnt revert to 10 as it could solve the revolving door they currently have. He can obviously kick, run and tackle. If he's truly amongst the worlds top players why isnt he running the game more. Wales are happy to have him dawdling around at the back, not fronting on attack- ie last years 6N and the first two Lions tests...I mean what gives?...if hes the best player in the NH he needs to take on more of a leadership role, run the play more. Just find another fullback, 10 is the more critical position.

I don't know if 10 is necessarily the most difficult, rather it's the most demanding and crucial component of a team. If you are defending, backs will target you as the weakest link - to get in behind your team. So your defense must be top quality. In attack, it's you that must find the space and distribute accordingly. Therefore you must be the shrewdest player on the pitch for tries are normally the keystone of victories. Add in goal kicking and you have a great deal of responsibility.

But if you do not kick ala Trinh-Duc, and are a reasonable size, then you should be fine for 2/3rds. You probably won't be targeted on turnover as play should go wide also. For attack, if you see the space and pass, great. But you don't actually have to finish.

I'd say a 15 is equally difficult as you get even more targeted and can be a real weakness to your team if your hands are poor.

The hardest position IMO is in the front row and a natural seven. If your technique isn't up to scratch you'll give away penalties > field position > points. if repeated, a yellow card. A 15 that knocks on suffers field position and not a risk of a card.

No but they do suffer the risk of a non try, or a try scored against them if on defence- technically worth more than a card or field position, or penalty...