Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'something'

[Liam]

First topic message reminder :

Boring game but good result for all the top teams around these two really. Difference between Arsenal winning the league and not is a world class striker, because in tight games like these in the big games a world class striker will finish the chance Giroud had. He's been excellent this season but misses far too many to deliver a title. That's what makes Suarez/Agueor and RVP last season the difference in the end.

[Hammersmith harrier]

The Hammersmith Apollo was where I did the main bulk of my work.

Football referees are crap at what they do and unlike the sportsmen don't have to train for hours every day, they work for a few hours a week. Quite why you think they deserve more than they get is baffling.

[mystiroakey]

I cant agree with that at all mate. They have a very tough job out there. It baffles me that people cant understand how good they are and the pressures on them

[CFCNick]

Oh bless them all. They get to travel all over, run around with top level athletes, and watch some of the greatest matches for FREE!!!

I'd be a referee for £30k. I get enough abuse and threats to my face about three times a day working for £20k in the council parking services. Refs should expect that getting abuse from the stands or on the internet is part of what they're signing up for when they become a ref.

NHL refs get between $115-255k (£70-155k) per year. They have to be fit to skate around for two hours, get out of the way of players and the puck. Plus, spend the most part of October to June in a different city every night. They only get three days off for Christmas.

[mystiroakey]

Oh bless them all. They get to travel all over, run around with top level athletes, and watch some of the greatest matches for FREE!!!

I'd be a referee for £30k.

I would play football for 30k

You would have to pay me 500k to be a ref

[Hammersmith harrier]

I cant agree with that at all mate. They have a very tough job out there. It baffles me that people cant understand how good they are and the pressures on them

If they were good then maybe you'd be right but they are not, compared to a Rugby referee they are bordering on incompetent.

[mystiroakey]

come on Rugby refs get the most stick on this forum than any other. They all have different interpretations and they have video ref help.

Not saying they are bad , they do a GOOD JOB AND GET PAID ABOUT 60K FOR IT. But they are in a sport that makes 1000's less money and get respect from fans(in the ground) and the players and are in a  much less profile sport

[Duty281]

I cant agree with that at all mate. They have a very tough job out there. It baffles me that people cant understand how good they are and the pressures on them

Me as well lad. Very difficult to maintain concentration and composure for ninety minutes, in a lightning-fast environment while knowing that one wrong call, even if you make fifty right ones, is the one that will be remembered.

[hampo17]

The issue you have is that referees are being paid a very good wage to do a job, yet they're making mistakes in that job without punishment. I've just watched Pantmilion come out with his foot head high, he would have hit the Blackburn player between the eyes had he not moved but Michael Oliver gave nothing, to me that was obvious foul play.

[hampo17]

Duty that's the same in any job, for example I work in finance, for nearly 2 years I put notes on every case I dealt with without fail, I forgot to do one before Christmas and got dragged over the hot coals over it.

They are paid good money, enough to live very comfortably, it isn't much to expect them to get simple decisions right.

[mystiroakey]

We need to help the refs.

At the end of the day would refs be much better if we paid them double. Maybe we would but the reality is what they really need is more help out there and a lot more understanding from us fans.

I still think its a tough game and in today's world 80k is a very nice salary but one that is so in the spot light it really actually isn't.

Cricket, Rugby Union, League, NFL ref's get the equivalent or more yet get way more respect and video help to do there jobs better.

[mystiroakey]

Duty that's the same in any job, for example I work in finance, for nearly 2 years I put notes on every case I dealt with without fail, I forgot to do one before Christmas and got dragged over the hot coals over it.

They are paid good money, enough to live very comfortably, it isn't much to expect them to get simple decisions right.

so were you blasted on twitter - did you receive death threats for making a human error?

Its so easy for you and others to say you would do a better job. But i can safely say 99.99% of the fans that blast refs cant do a better job!

[Hammersmith harrier]

Why do refs deserve more money for taking a bit of stick and being bloody useless half the time, why not pay those who risk their lives in job more?

[Duty281]

Duty that's the same in any job, for example I work in finance, for nearly 2 years I put notes on every case I dealt with without fail, I forgot to do one before Christmas and got dragged over the hot coals over it.

They are paid good money, enough to live very comfortably, it isn't much to expect them to get simple decisions right.

Any death threats? Any headlines slamming what you did? Any people hate you for it? Can you still walk down the street safely?

[Duty281]

Why do refs deserve more money for taking a bit of stick and being bloody useless half the time, why not pay those who risk their lives in job more?

Like who?

[hampo17]

We should expect the best from our referees Oakey, the fact is we get substandard performances week in week out from them. If they where more consistent then they wouldn't get half the abuse they do but the fact is one week they'll give a foul for something and then do nothing for the same thing a week later.

They would also receive more respect if they explained their decisions, too often have I seen a player ask what he did only to be told to go away by the referee. Why doesn't he explain why he's given the foul? You pointed our rugby referees, you hear them do it all the time. The players know why he's done it and then there is a lot more respect. Same with NFL referees.

The players don't give them enough respect I agree, but should Howard Webb really be earning more than some of the players for a couple of hours work a week?

[mystiroakey]

Why do refs deserve more money for taking a bit of stick and being bloody useless half the time, why not pay those who risk their lives in job more?

The PL earns a serious amount of money. Its a private entity. Many players earn more than a ref does in one week!!

Talking about paying firemen or policemen more is valid. But your average banker earns more than a ref does in a bonus. So lets get some perspective here,

[hampo17]

It's not often you see referees get death threats either btw, a large overreaction there, however just so you know there are people who I have worked with received threats from clients.

[Duty281]

Why do refs deserve more money for taking a bit of stick and being bloody useless half the time, why not pay those who risk their lives in job more?

The PL earns a serious amount of money. Its a private entity. Many players earn more than a ref does in one week!!

Talking about paying firemen or policemen more is valid. But your average banker earns more than a ref does in a bonus. So lets get some perspective here,

Unless HH is willing to pay more tax, I think it's a non-starter!

[CFCNick]

There's only two times I can remember a ref getting death threats. England v Portugal 2004 and then Chelsea v Barcelona in 2009. It's very rare considering how much football there is each year.

[Duty281]

There's only two times I can remember a ref getting death threats. England v Portugal 2004 and then Chelsea v Barcelona in 2009. It's very rare considering how much football there is each year.

Well....there are all the nutters on twitter as well.

[mystiroakey]

Hampo- You blame the ref's for incompetence

I blame the system that is in place. And even if the refs were just bad, how is it the refs fault- Its the FA's fault surely for appointing them, for not training or motivating them enough, for not paying the money to either make them better or get better quality refs in place.

But then it goes deeper. FIFA is a problem, UEFA is a problem(lack of tech being used), HD TV;'s are a problem, Replays are a problem, Players cheating is a problem, twitter and social media is a problem.

Everything together highlights problems that have allways existed.

Time to back the refs and help them more,

[hampo17]

Would Howard Webb had given those penalties if he was getting a further £30k in his pay packet? No probably not.

You say you want to help the referees more, let's look at the Eto'o on Suarez incident and the Lloris on Young. The ball doesn't go dead after those incidents so how does the use of technology help the ref there? Does he stop play while he checks?

[mystiroakey]

We are going into a different debate Hampo.

But giving PL managers a bigger wage could persuade top athletes in certain skills to get involved in refereeing , therefore get a better quality of candidate in the first place.

In play video refereeing(in direct contact with the onfield ref) is my solution to Refereeing top level footy games, but as i stated that is another discussion.

[Hammersmith harrier]

The referee in Rugby only has the benefit of the video ref when the ball is dead, he is aided by the fact his linesmen actually have a clue what they're doing.

[mystiroakey]

The referee in Rugby only has the benefit of the video ref when the ball is dead, he is aided by the fact his linesmen actually have a clue what they're doing.

Do you go oin the rugby forums(I am sure i have seen you there)

Blasting refs takes up 50% of the posts mate.

Anyway what you say is here nor there. This is my solution for top level footy games.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

£80k is a pretty damn good wage for the job they do. Most of you wouldnt even notice if Mark Clattenburg walked by you on a high street. They have a pretty easy working week. Two major days of work and then events and training. I'd rather ref a Premier League game than a Sunday League game.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I occasionally go on the rugby boards but them a winging bunch so steer clear, the main issue in Rugby is the interpretation of the scrum but with the exception of that the refs are pretty damn good.

[mystiroakey]

80k isnt bad- its not premium IMO. but its ok granted.

but what about helping them out more. How to we solve the ultimate problem?

If it would take more money to get a better quality candidate wouldn't that be a solution?

What about helping them out more on field?

[mystiroakey]

I occasionally go on the rugby boards but them a winging bunch so steer clear, the main issue in Rugby is the interpretation of the scrum but with the exception of that the refs are pretty damn good.

I am a big rugby and footy fan hampo. And tbh mate the rugby refs get way more stick on this forum!

IMO they are as good as each other and have almost impossible jobs. But the Rugby refs get a lot more help

[mystiroakey]

"NHL refs get between $115-255k (£70-155k) per year

NFL get 250k the only big sport that is close to rivalling the PL from the US.

And if you cant understand the difference between getting to the top of your profession(refereeing PL games ) over the job you are currently doing then not sure what to say mate. But there are leagues apart

[Ent]

£80,000 is in the top 5% of salaries in the country and more than 3 times the national average wage.

It is very certainly a premium wage.

No lazy insurance sales person earns anywhere near 50k.

I'd love to live on the planet you live on.

[mystiroakey]

I just live in london.

Its the big place in the south.

You dont need a space ship to get there.

[Ent]

Virgin trains are very futuristic.

Obviously the amount of millionaires in London would alter your definition of premium.

The rest is still nonsense though.

[CFCNick]

Step out of London and you'll see how the rest of us live. In towns where pints cost less than £4.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Starting to cost that much in my cost Cambridgeshire village. The swines.

Best part of this reffing debate for me is that apparently Southampton are refusing to be reffed by Clattenburg. Jumped up little club

[CFCNick]

"NHL refs get between $115-255k (£70-155k) per year

NFL get 250k the only big sport that is close to rivalling the PL from the US.

And if you cant understand the difference between getting to the top of your profession(refereeing PL games ) over the job you are currently doing then not sure what to say mate. But there are leagues apart

Financially and domestically but not worldwide. It makes the most money of the US sports leagues (about $9bn a year about three times more than the NHL, but NFL tickets are almost as extortianate as PL and the smallest stadium is about the size of Old Trafford. Most hockey arenas hold between 15-20,000) but hockey, basketball and baseball are bigger worldwide. I mean, we even have a professional hockey league in this country. compared to only amateur/university leagues for American Football.

[Ent]

They wanna meet the guys that used to referee me.

One player ran at the ref shouting and gesticulating about a decision and the ref head butted him.

When playing in a rough part of time I complained about a decision and the ref told me to shut the hell up so we could all get out alive.

[mystiroakey]

"One player ran at the ref shouting and gesticulating about a decision and the ref head butted him"

where ?

  

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

FA cup today.

Question to everyone. Does anyone care if your team wins or loses.

We're playing Fulham. We never ever beat Fulham.

I've already accepted it'll be a draw and we'll lose the replay

Part one correct, almost certain part two will come to fruition in a few weeks time.

Hughton doesn't even risk it in a cup. Unbelievable

[mystiroakey]

Well this game isn't dead rubber. Arsernal fans are loud!!!

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Also Foxy baby played, and was majestic

[socal1976]

Ohhhh! Santii Cazorlaaa!

[socal1976]

Gnabry is the best player so far, set that goal up on tee

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Where on earth was Kyle Walker for that goal

[socal1976]

aRsenal wasting too many good chances should have put 2 or 3 in by now.

[socal1976]

Where on earth was Kyle Walker for that goal

Having brontasaurus burgers with his buddy barney rubble I assume.

I was shaking when the lineup card came out. Spurs almost the exact team that played at United. While Arsenal no Giroud, Ramsey, Ozil, Per, Gibbs, Scz. Almost half our first team out. But Rosicky, Santi, and Gnabry playing well.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Ere, we've got an FA Cup thread for this you know!

Will Lambert be the next to go? Sounds like the Villa faithful were more than unhappy today

[NickisBHAFC]

FA CUP THREAD LADS, FA CUP THREAD!!!

[The Fourth Lion]

We should expect the best from our referees Oakey, the fact is we get substandard performances week in week out from them. If they where more consistent then they wouldn't get half the abuse they do but the fact is one week they'll give a foul for something and then do nothing for the same thing a week later.

They would also receive more respect if they explained their decisions, too often have I seen a player ask what he did only to be told to go away by the referee. Why doesn't he explain why he's given the foul? You pointed our rugby referees, you hear them do it all the time. The players know why he's done it and then there is a lot more respect. Same with NFL referees.

The players don't give them enough respect I agree, but should Howard Webb really be earning more than some of the players for a couple of hours work a week?

Interesting points, Hampo and as a former referee (albeit only up to County Level) I do have some insights into such things

I would ask you first, what you call "substandard"...? Does that mean the number of decisions that don't go in favour of the team you support, or are you suggesting that television replays, using digital enhancement and slow motion analysis taken apart bit by bit over several hours by embittered former professionals who have an axe to grind against referees, is a responsible and unbiased way of analysing a game..?

When it comes to the much fabled "consistency", well, I'm afraid that what you have is a case of footballers having been given what they wished for. Around the late 1980's, there was a huge campaign by clubs for greater consistency. FIFA warned at the time that if uniform practices were incorporated into the game, it would take away the referee's discretion. The clubs said to go for it, so FIFA did. In the 1990s they introduced instructions to match officials which were to be strictly followed by one and all. It produced consistency, but it meant that referees could no longer apply their common sense.

So, what would you rather have..? Consistency, which means the same thing being done on all occasions, or discretion, which carries the consequence that one referee may interpret situations more liberally than another and therefore apply the laws differently. You choose. You can have either one, but you can't have both.

With regard to referees explaining decisions to players, I'm afraid the players have no right to expect this. The laws do not expressly allow for this and a referee is under no obligation, either moral or official, to explain to players what they have been penalised for. Now, that may not seem helpful, but looking at it from another point of view, the fact that a direct free kick (or penalty) has been given is all that is needed to indicate foul play. An indirect free kick indicates offside or another technical offence. A linesman's signal indicates a goal kick, corner or throw in. The players have all the indication they are entitled to from these signals.

Now, I know that that sounds rather dismissive and arrogant and to be honest, I never liked it. I would love to have been able to explain to players why I gave so-and-so decision, but I learned very quickly in the early days of refereeing pub matches in the local park, that any attempt at explanation will turn into an argument. The player will not agree with you and your attempts to be reasonable with him will be met with dissent, hostility and anger. I've seen referees in parks assaulted for telling a player he has handled the ball. It just isn't worth it. Give the free kick, don't talk to them, just get the game restarted and keep it going as much as you can.

Never attempt to appeal to a footballer's finer instincts such as sportsmanship and honesty. They don't have any.

What I personally would like to see, is the rugby type of system where a team captain is allowed ask the referee for clarification of a decision. Note: Clarification. Not to argue about it, not to question it. It works something like this:

Captain: "What is the decision, Sir?"
Referee: "A penalty for foul play against number three."
Captain: Thank you, Sir."

That's what I'd like to see. It works in rugby. Could it work in football..? Answers on the back of a very small postcard, please. Two letters, an "N" followed by a "O" should suffice.

As for match official's wages, well, in my opinion they are well remunerated for what they do. Better than I ever was, and I never got a police escort off the pitch,either..!!

I don't think wages have anything to do with performance. I think that match officials truly do the best they can and no amount of money is going to make them better. These are honest men, doing the best they can in truly demanding situations, against 22 professional cheats who would sell their own mothers to sex traffickers to get a throw in.

There's nothing wrong with the game that getting rid of most of the players wouldn't make better.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Hear, hear

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