British and Irish League - its got to be the solution

First topic message reminder :

I know there's a lot of obstacles to overcome but it just seems such an obvious solution to the disaster that is going to happen if everyone who has some inflluence in this current embargo doesn't pull in the same direction

My initial thoughts

At least 3 divisions - with promotion and relegation - if the Celtic Sides can't cut it in division 3 then probably they are best absorbed into their National leagues

Possibly a cup competition in the National leagues to decide 1 of 2 promotion places into the New Structure- the other place should be given to the English league champions simply because there are massively more of them.

The Italian sides absorbed into the lower French league to build again

France are big enough to survive on their own but could be brought into the fold by way of Euro competition annually.

TV Revenue should soar given the meaningful matches and structure on offer

It would secure rugby in Scotland and Ireland which will struggle if the Welsh regions jump ship to the Wanglo

It would secure rugby in Wales when the English sides come up with a better European solution and drop them from the Wanglo

It would provide a higher level of rugby for all sides especially in the division 1

Administered by the 6 Nations committee to ensure impartiality

It would secure the 6 Nations as a high quality rugby competition

It would give the fans high quality matches- lots of local derbies and incentives for putting out your best sides (promotion/relegation)


I realise the problem is then is the way the franchises are run - either by Unions or Club Owners which inevitably means the issue of money distribution but if we could come up with an equitable solution - surely its worth persevering with rather than the mess thats soon to befall us?

Shifty, the Irish play up to 31 domestic rugby games a season plus a couple of warm up games. So 34. Same for he Scots and Italians. Most actually only have 28 games plus preseason (no knockouts). The French play 38 games plus preseason. It's only the english and Welsh that play up to 39 games plus preseason. And a chunk of the are in an unofficial development competition.

Add in that one competition against the same teams every year would be a bit boring. If we're doing that the English might as well just keep their current league.

Shifty wrote:

Notch wrote:I don't think so, I don't think that most fans in Ireland, Scotland and England would be in favour of this- just my gut feeling. How about a poll?

If it happens, it will be forced on us and be pretty unstable.

I agree, simply because we dont need a USA sport style league, we have 42 weeks for a club season and a 10 celt and 12 aviva league would take exactly 42 weeks to play.  

If you scrap the Rabo, Heinaken and LV Cup, then scrap the 3 weeks you have for pre-season friendlies, and start on the same week as the top 14 in France (they dont have pre-season friendlies), then it fits.

Yes we'd have to play through the 6 nations and November series, but there are rabo, top 14 and Aviva league games during the 6 nations anyway, so nothing changes at all.

We all gain because we have something to fight the French with.

The IRFU reckon the ideal amount of gametime for a top-level international works out at about 30 games on average- some players less, some more but thats your baseline figure. 30 games.

Now the IRFU have 10 test matches scheduled for next season, leaving only 20 of those games for club competition. Whats the PRLs reaction to Irish internationals playing less than 50% of your new season?

Only an integrated approach between Union and club sides can ensure players don't get overworked and I've got to say club rugby 42 weeks a year sounds insane. Literally insane.

I already think we have too much rugby- I would like to see a season with less games, not more.

HammerofThunor wrote:Shifty, the Irish play up to 31 domestic rugby games a season plus a couple of warm up games. So 34. Same for he Scots and Italians. Most actually only have 28 games plus preseason (no knockouts). The French play 38 games plus preseason. It's only the english  and Welsh that play up to 39 games plus preseason. And a chunk of the are in an unofficial development competition.

Add in that one competition against the same teams every year would be a bit boring. If we're doing that the English might as well just keep their current league.

Your making assumptions while not checking the facts, you do realise top 14, Aviva and Rabo LEAGUE games are played during international windows? The calender is above have a look.

Each player only plays 20 games though.  It doesnt matter how many games you have, players are capped at 20.  Whats the point in academies if players dont get the chance to play?

The more games in the 42 week season the more oppertunities you give to players and the more income you generate.

Why would one competition against the same teams each year be boring? f you have 12 english, 2 scottish, 4 welsh and 4 irish, it would be a very varied competition.

Notch wrote:[The IRFU reckon the ideal amount of gametime for a top-level international works out at about 30 games on average- some players less, some more but thats your baseline figure. 30 games.

Now the IRFU have 10 test matches scheduled for next season, leaving only 20 of those games for club competition. Whats the PRLs reaction to Irish internationals playing less than 50% of your new season?

Only an integrated approach between Union and club sides can ensure players don't get overworked and I've got to say club rugby 42 weeks a year sounds insane. Literally insane.

I already think we have too much rugby- I would like to see a season with less games, not more.

Players are supposed to play 20 games a year.  

You say club rugby 42 weeks of the year is insane, but you do realise we play club rugby for 42 weeks of the year at the moment?  look at the calender I posted for the current season.  It's there in black and white.  The club season stated on the 17th of August and it will finish on the 31st of may, and after those 42 weeks, your lads are off on a tour to Argentina, while Scotland are off on a 4 week tour to Usa, Canada, Argentina and South Africa!!!  

You do realise that Leinster played 36 games last year?  It's only the 6 weeks in the LV cup you missed, but you put a team in the British and Irish cup, which you won so it's 36 games + 9!  = 45 games.
What your also not looking at is the LV Cup is on during the international window, so your international players were playing during those 6 weeks!

Rugby is a squad game these days, and your boys are playing one way or another.

I'm sorry to be negitive but any discusions have to include the italians as there is no way the french will want them. They are happy by themselves.

Also the Rabo unions would never agree to having a legue where 1country has 8 more teams than anyone else.

If the Welsh left to ruin themselves the Rabo would have 8 teams. You can easily play each other twice. No doubling up in the IW. There would be europe in some form and the anglo-welsh league would have their hands tied that entrance is by league, ensuring 6places to the top table.

Brendan wrote:I'm sorry to be negitive but any discusions have to include the italians as there is no way the french will want them.  They are happy by themselves.

Also the Rabo unions would never agree to having a legue where 1country has 8 more teams than anyone else.

If the Welsh left to ruin themselves the Rabo would have 8 teams.  You can easily play each other twice.  No doubling up in the IW.  There would be europe in some form and the anglo-welsh league would have their hands tied that entrance is by league, ensuring 6places to the top table.

I don't think the Rabo is helping the Italians, the overall results of the Italians clubs are not really any better than before they joined the Rabo. Their teams are not interested in travelling away from home, while their style of rugby is negative with a view of simply keeping the score down. I don't think it's going to make much difference if their in the Rabo or not. It might be better to let the better Italian players go to France to play.

Shifty wrote:

Brendan wrote:I'm sorry to be negitive but any discusions have to include the italians as there is no way the french will want them.  They are happy by themselves.

Also the Rabo unions would never agree to having a legue where 1country has 8 more teams than anyone else.

If the Welsh left to ruin themselves the Rabo would have 8 teams.  You can easily play each other twice.  No doubling up in the IW.  There would be europe in some form and the anglo-welsh league would have their hands tied that entrance is by league, ensuring 6places to the top table.

I don't think the Rabo is helping the Italians, the overall results of the Italians clubs are not really any better than before they joined the Rabo.  Their teams are not interested in travelling away from home, while their style of rugby is negative with a view of simply keeping the score down.  I don't think it's going to make much difference if their in the Rabo or not.  It might be better to let the better Italian players go to France to play.  

I think you're expecting too much of them. It takes time to improve. They're picking mostly Italian players and foreigners who are mostly journeymen. They need time to produce a better quality of player and if they didn't have to pay €3m each year they could afford better standard of foreign player.

profitius wrote:I think you're expecting too much of them. It takes time to improve. They're picking mostly Italian players and foreigners who are mostly journeymen. They need time to produce a better quality of player and if they didn't have to pay €3m each year they could afford better standard of foreign player.

I don't agree sorry, Italy have had regular international competition against the old 5 Nations since the early 90's.  
They joined the 5 Nations in 2000, but even in the season before that some teams played them as if they were part of the tournament.  

They were part of the Heinaken Cup since the the first tournament in 1995/1996.  While no Italian team has not finished bottom of their pool since the 2004/2005 season, and none has ever qualified past the pool stages. In fact their results have got markedly worse since the late 90's and early 2000's because Treviso often finished 3rd in their pool at that point.  Now like Aironi / Zebre they are often bottom of their pool, with 6 losses.

While they have also been part of the Rabo since the 2010-2011 season.   This season Zebre are currently bottom of the Rabo, with Treviso 10th, which is how it finished for the first 2 years they joined.  Last season Treviso did manage to finish 7th to be fair, but this season they are back in 10th spot so far.

I'm sorry to say but Italy should of made a lot more progress than they have.  The chances and oppertunities have been given to them, they are not grasping them.  All they have achieved is the occasional shock win, nothing consistent.  

Truth is they have far more clubs and adult players than Wales and also have a professional league below their Rabo teams, which Wales doesn't have. Generally their clubs have better facilities also.

A Great Britain League plus Ireland sounds interesting enough but given the PRL will always have a relegation system in place I worry this is too negative for Nations such as Wales, Ireland & Scotland to produce home grown players. Sure if you are playing top end rugby people will want to see but are fans equally exited if they end up in division 1 or even 2 in the long term. I doubt the resources are available in the lesser populated areas to get them back out of it if they drop down. While we are being pitched games like the mouth watering prospects of Northampton vs Blues and Ospreys vs Leicester clashes on a regular format, I would be more concerned if the likes of Glasgow, Dragons, Connacht & Scarlets end up playing teams like Doncaster, London Welsh etc.

It really is to bigger risk. Why even join a league that clearly promotes survival over long term sustainability. Its a total non starter for me with the risks far to great compared to the positives.

Stay well away on this one is my advice. Pro 12 all the way!

Besides how long would it be before the reported sums offered to the Celts would be altered depending on who is actually playing top flight. I have no doubt the PRL would redraft the system if for example less than 20% of the Aviva was represented by Ireland, Wales & Scotland. We would see a even bigger slice of pie being paid out to the English clubs representing them. Additionally we probably wouldn't see fairer redistribution if 80% of the top level league represented where non English clubs. Bottom line is the PRL just want as much as they can get for English clubs. That's not a criticism just an observation.

HammerofThunor wrote:Just to expand on that.

Conference 1
Irish Division - Connacht, Leinster, Munster, Ulster
Welsh Division - Blues, Dragons, Ospreys, Scarlets
Scotland and North England - Glasgow, Edinburgh, Newcastle, AN OTHER
North England - Sale, Leeds, Rotherham, AN OTHER

Conference 2
London - Saracens, Harlequins, London Wasps, London Irish
South West - Cornish Pirates, Exeter, Bath, Bristol
Midlands - Leicester, Northampton, Worcester, Mosely
AN OTHER - some other teams

But you get the gist (yes I know Gloucester are missing).

Everyone players everyone in their division twice and some of the others on a rotating basis. At the end 1st in each division go into the cup playoffs (8 teams), 2nd go into plate (8 teams), etc.

The NFL have 17 normal games, around 8 home games (three less than now). Then there would be at least one play off game and up to 3. so that would be 18-20 games. Instead the playoff could be home and away up to the final so that would be 19-22 games.

Then we could also have an actual European cup that really is pan European as well.

Having read all of this thread this is by far the best solution to the whole B & I league proposal. (and something I've mooted several times b4)
We have the interest of local derbies and the random factor of different opposition each year in outer conference games.
Having a shorter season means international players will definitely be playing and that's what the paying public want to see.
The unions should have no control other than the calender set up.
And how about for the extra conference some franchises to represent the southern hemisphere unions, or usa/canada? London based franchises might be able to raise the supporters?

The idea of a 22 team league played during the international windows is rubbish. Who wants to see academy and 2nd/3rd choice players competing? Especially in a mediocre mid table clash?
A 2 league tier league would be no more of interest than the rabo/aviva is now.

I think we are best staying with a Rabo and an Aviva league.

I think if the French can't be brought around then a British and Irish cup could be best. Keep the 2 leagues and then have a B&I cup of some sort where maybe the top 4 in each qualify for the cup, next 4 for a bowl and last 4 for a shield or something like that.

Think we need to exclude the french from everything, if for nothing other than to reduce their income and stop them stealing all of our players. Together we stand and all that.

doddieman wrote:Think we need to exclude the french from everything, if for nothing other than to reduce their income and stop them stealing all of our players. Together we stand and all that.

I totally agree. The big threat to British and Irish rugby is from France. Their new TV deal pretty much gives them an open cheque book. I think our only way of stemming the tide is to stand together and create a competition that B&I players really want to be a part of.

doctornickolas wrote:I think we are best staying with a Rabo and an Aviva league.

I think if the French can't be brought around then a British and Irish cup could be best. Keep the 2 leagues and then have a B&I cup of some sort where maybe the top 4 in each qualify for the cup, next 4 for a bowl and last 4 for a shield or something like that.

This would be a lot quicker to put together than a proper B&I League.  Following on your thought, The leagues can play their schedules as current, but there are no Heineken Cup breaks.  So the league's seasons would end around early April.  Then two weeks of playoffs to crown league champions.   So then take the top 4 in each league as you suggest, playing the top in one league against the bottom of the 4 in the other league and so on.  Three more weeks and we have a B&I champion.  If the Italian sides remain within the Pro12, then we have a B&I&I champion.   This could work.

Shifty wrote:

profitius wrote:I think you're expecting too much of them. It takes time to improve. They're picking mostly Italian players and foreigners who are mostly journeymen. They need time to produce a better quality of player and if they didn't have to pay €3m each year they could afford better standard of foreign player.

I don't agree sorry, Italy have had regular international competition against the old 5 Nations since the early 90's.  
They joined the 5 Nations in 2000, but even in the season before that some teams played them as if they were part of the tournament.  

They were part of the Heinaken Cup since the the first tournament in 1995/1996.  While no Italian team has not finished bottom of their pool since the 2004/2005 season, and none has ever qualified past the pool stages. In fact their results have got markedly worse since the late 90's and early 2000's because Treviso often finished 3rd in their pool at that point.  Now like Aironi / Zebre they are often bottom of their pool, with 6 losses.

While they have also been part of the Rabo since the 2010-2011 season.   This season Zebre are currently bottom of the Rabo, with Treviso 10th, which is how it finished for the first 2 years they joined.  Last season Treviso did manage to finish 7th to be fair, but this season they are back in 10th spot so far.

I'm sorry to say but Italy should of made a lot more progress than they have.  The chances and oppertunities have been given to them, they are not grasping them.  All they have achieved is the occasional shock win, nothing consistent.  

Truth is they have far more clubs and adult players than Wales and also have a professional league below their Rabo teams, which Wales doesn't have.  Generally their clubs have better facilities also.  

Well said.

I like the conference idea, as it would give lots of derbies and reduce travel costs, and then provide different teams to play. But maybe an alternative would be 4 conferences :

Irish and Scots = 6 teams
South west and North England = 6 teams ( newcastle / sale / worcs / glos / bath / exeter )
South east and Midlands England = 6 teams ( LI, Quins, Sarries, wasps , Northampton/ Leics )
Welsh and Italian = 6 teams
so 10 fixtures in the conference, then into :

cup  - 1st and second placed
shield - 3rd and 4th placed teams
plate - 5th and 6th placed teams
giving another 14 fixtures.

24 fixtures ? Thats about the same as current leagues without European competition. 6 months of fixtures, with 3 months of Internationals = 9 months ? Its not perfect but I would enjoy following somethign like that.

No chance of this happening though !!!  

What happens after Worcester gets relegated? I suppose if Bristol or Leeds go up, it is not issue. If a London team goes up, then it becomes a mess. And, at some far distant point in the future, what if Jersey goes up?

A B&I league has to be subject to the same arguments that have been levelled against the HEC. Why should the PRL/RFU who will be stumping up the majority of the money see it go to fewer English players and teams?

A European League on a tier above the AP, P12 and T14 OTOH would attract additional money not just redistribute the current AP amount.

All depends on the commercial viability. In other words, if it attracts more money than the current League/Euro combination, then anything is possible. Depends on the dough.

I think the arguments are slightly different. The Heineken Cup is supposed to be the best teams, and is a small competition, relatively speaking. And for all intents and purposes is an add on to the current league season. The Premiership clubs feel the Celtic teams hold back in their competition just to excel in the Heineken Cup. In a proper B&I(&I?) league, teams need to go all out all the time because each match have a major impact, as they do in the NFL. That would be the incentive for English clubs. A perceived level playing field.

doctornickolas wrote:I think we are best staying with a Rabo and an Aviva league.

I think if the French can't be brought around then a British and Irish cup could be best. Keep the 2 leagues and then have a B&I cup of some sort where maybe the top 4 in each qualify for the cup, next 4 for a bowl and last 4 for a shield or something like that.

One of the things about the current HC qualification I like is that it means most seasons virtually all teams have something to fight for:

• Top three or four aiming for home semi
  
• Next three or four aiming for HC
  
• Bottom three or four aiming to avoid relegation
  

Based on this and assuming the French are out (which I do not want) I would go for top 6 in each league in a Cup and bottom six in a bowl.

Also if we are doing the top 2 divisions the irish have the 4 A teams that are as good as the championship plus the top teams from the welsh & scot Prem.

Also on Italy they have gone from being a 1 match putting it up to a team to every game being up for the whole time.

It is true that Treviso and Zebre have not performed but they are bring down the defeats and they are bring through some exciting players that can play ball.

If the italians had been around for the Celtic tiger the irish teams would have been getting large attendance with the travelling support

The Great Aukster wrote:A B&I league has to be subject to the same arguments that have been levelled against the HEC. Why should the PRL/RFU who will be stumping up the majority of the money see it go to fewer English players and teams?

A European League on a tier above the AP, P12 and T14 OTOH would attract additional money not just redistribute the current AP amount.

The prl / rfu do not stump up any money for the HC and would not for this. the reason why it didn't happen at the beginning of professionalism when people tiered to get it running and why it will never happen is simply half of the aviva clubs would have to go into a lower tier and they will never allow this

TJ wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:A B&I league has to be subject to the same arguments that have been levelled against the HEC. Why should the PRL/RFU who will be stumping up the majority of the money see it go to fewer English players and teams?

A European League on a tier above the AP, P12 and T14 OTOH would attract additional money not just redistribute the current AP amount.

The prl / rfu do not stump up any money for the HC and would not for this.  the reason why it didn't happen at the beginning of professionalism when people tiered to get it running and why it will never happen is simply half of the aviva clubs would have to go into a lower tier and they will never allow this

Based on the HC negotiations I think it would be the weaker Rabo teams who would object most to being in lower tier.

Punishment for all participants in the Euro trash Rugby negotiations: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-25597324

"British and Irish League - its got to be the solution"

David Moffett, the devil himself to many of us Welshies, thinks so too and he's back on our shores, red hot poker in hand.

Looks like the pieman ( owner of cardiff Blues ) agrees : “The regions have put forward a RCC (European) or a B & I Cup that maybe is the solution for us.

“There’s a Regional Rugby Wales proposition, there’s a competition, it’s make your mind up time,” was Thomas’ message to the Welsh Rugby Union.

“If it (WRU) refuses to support a RCC or B & I Cup, we will review our position.

“The Pro12 has a purported television deal worth £5.5m, France £65m and England £30m,” he claimed.

“Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product.”

Thomas insisted the efforts of the Six Nations committee to find a formula to preserve the European Cup and bring the English clubs back on board would fail unless rival broadcasters Sky Sports and BT Sport agreed a peace deal.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/cardiff-blues-boss-peter-thomas-6567091

Bluedragon wrote:Looks like the pieman ( owner of cardiff Blues ) agrees : “The regions have put forward a RCC (European) or a B & I Cup that maybe is the solution for us.

“There’s a Regional Rugby Wales proposition, there’s a competition, it’s make your mind up time,” was Thomas’ message to the Welsh Rugby Union.

“If it (WRU) refuses to support a RCC or B & I Cup, we will review our position.

“The Pro12 has a purported television deal worth £5.5m, France £65m and England £30m,” he claimed.

“Do the maths – the Rabo has no chance. Come on, change the product.”

Thomas insisted the efforts of the Six Nations committee to find a formula to preserve the European Cup and bring the English clubs back on board would fail unless rival broadcasters Sky Sports and BT Sport agreed a peace deal.”

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/cardiff-blues-boss-peter-thomas-6567091

Peter Thomas isn't exactly the voice of reason. Talk about burning your bridges......

Bluedragon wrote:“The Pro12 has a purported television deal worth £5.5m, France £65m and England £30m,” he claimed.

Is this really correct? That's a huge imbalance.

doctor_grey wrote:

Bluedragon wrote:“The Pro12 has a purported television deal worth £5.5m, France £65m and England £30m,” he claimed.

Is this really correct?  That's a huge imbalance.

No, it isn't correct. The Rabo £5.5m is from SKY alone, not counting other broadcasters. The T14 is around is around £59m. The AP is around £22m.

Peter Thomas isn't great with maths for a businessman, or perhaps he's deliberately misleading?

Although the other broadcasters haven't signed up yet have they? At least BBCW hasn't and they give most of the rest. So technically those numbers are right but the Sky deal isn't exclusive and other will almost certainly going to be coming on board. I think the total will be around £10.5M.

Also the previous RRW calling for an inquest said the AP deal was £22M, now it's £30M. Someone hasn't seen the BT deal  

Edit: sorry munchkin, didn't read your post properly

Why would the English want us? I can see them wanting to keep playing the Irish provinces but Welsh and Scots? I wouldnt to be honest.
Also as much as I dont want to say something nice about the Aviva(due to the many wnkrs away from the field), I think they probably have the best club league in the world(not playing quality). They have lots of pro teams and multiple divisions, obviously they will have difficulties but its got constant potential for the game to grow across the whole country. Yes there are imbalances but not to the same extent as Top14.
Why would they want to change that to help the Celts? They dont even want to help the Celts with the Heineken(which was not bad for the english at all and actually gave a lot to them)

Well Kingjohn,
You hit on a number of points.  I will ignore the not wanting to help the Celts with the Heineken Cup bit because some in the English clubs feel the same about the Celts.  Besides, that has been kicked around too many times here.  

But why would the Premiership welcome Celt League teams in a true B&I league?  Simple.  Money. In my opinion, lots 'o money.  In fact, this has the possibility of pulling more money than the combination of the separate leagues plus the Heineken Cup money.  The Heineken Cup is a 6 week season, plus three more for playoffs.  That's all.  On the other hand, a full season of great teams playing each other regularly (or at least semi-regularly) would entice fans and have broadcasters salivating at the opportunity.  A single media package (or packages) encompassing the nation, or both nations, with a rational, common-sense schedule enabling the Internationals, would be grand.  

Of course, the business models are so different, a lot would need to go into it to ensure a relatively level playing field.  But after that, all things are possible.