When exactly did the West Indies capitulate?

So watching the highlights of the WIndies match vs New Zealand, and it seems the boys in maroon have reached another low, well, one in a series of them.

What I want to know is, exactly when did the West Indies go from being the best team in world cricket, to being the team that housed Carl Hooper, and Lendl Simmonds? I've heard a few theories on the matter - One of them being that as cricket became a more professional game, the inherent advantages of having a battery of 90mph bowlers began to dissipate. As bowling machines became more prevalent, and players (due to better salaries) were able to practise with more and better qualified specialists. Another is that the powers that be conspired to destroy the West Indies - by limiting the number of bouncers to two, and then being more stringent on the enforcement of the 90 overs a day rule. Sounds a little bit like a conspiracy theory, I admit, but is there any doubt that the MCC didn't want or like the Caribbean boys maiming and destroying their men? After all, "only W.ankers and the West Indies high five" was a phrase which was very well known in the English establishment.

So, when did the Windies capitulate? And as importantly - why and how did a team which went unchallenged for nearly fifteen years suddenly forget how to win? I've heard you aren't a real cricket fan unless you can give a two hour seminar on the fall of Windies cricket at the slightest provocation - here's your chance, Guildford, Hoggy, Alfie, MSP?

There is one inherent problem in Windies cricket:

--that  West Indies is not a nation...in good times they could string together a structure which held them with collective pride and governing discipline.

--in bad times of  various economic and political  crises....the reason to feel proud about was lost...and with that declined the passion to feel a west indian.

--In 1990s sometime when Richardson took over is when cricket did not have enough money, enough passion / pride and the talented sporting youth started looking elsewhere for money and recognition.......athletics, baseball, basketball starting luring them.

and cricket declined....

--the talent was always there ......so then came IPL and the talented ones started selling there wares in the IPL market...and the primary aspiration now is to have a good IPL contract a secondary BBL contract and T20 has a pretty lucrative  league in Carribean also.

--so after the decline through the 1990s and until mid 2000s the poor islandes now primarily  strive for good T20 club contracts........and look at IPL Dwayne Smith,  Kevin Cooper, Sammy; rampaul are mediocre talents internationally yet well paid IPL stars.......and Gayle, Pollard, Sunil Narine; bravo are superstars...big Bosses in IPL.

--International cricket minus national pride, passion , money is secondary....the only form that holds their interest somewhat is T20 where they are world champions.......they are on&off in ODIs....and don't care an Iota for test cricket.

the inherent lack of monetary resources , lack of national spirit.........productization/ capitalism through paid franchisees has swallowed West Indies cricket...for good and ireversibly.


--what can be done?

Disband west Indies as one team

Instead

Let the islands constituting West Indies compete as Individual teams  in ICC tournaments and qualify for international events and tests...the individual pride as a nations will propel them further than this loosely collected  bunch called WI drive themselves.

--other wise they will remain individually brilliant talents...top stars in IPL and yet pathetic  in tests and medicore in ODIs

--

Raf - interesting opener as ever. I'll try to post again tomorrow when I have more time. No exact answer then I'm afraid but a few thoughts.

Thanks for the reply KP_fan... not sure I agree with the Windies separating, but it is a fair idea...

Looking forward to it Guildfordbat, although I don't think my opener has much academic merit.

Agree with all the problems that KPF identified with the West Indies issues. To his solid list, I'd add a couple more.
The 3rd rate administrators and lifeless pitches.
The WICB is a board that can give the PCB a run for their money with regard to being the worst run board. They don't pay their players well, don't even lookafter them when injury struck and act too highhanded when dealing with the players. Though a high-performance academy got launched a few years ago and it started producing half-decent players like Kieran Powell and Shannon Gabriel, there are not enough such facilities across the region.
Too much of player power also hasn't helped the West Indies.
The pitches across the region seem to have slowed down considerably. These days mediocre spinners lead the domestic First Class wicket tally regularly. The pitches are often sub-standard and run scoring has become far too difficult. As a result the batsmanship has suffered in the West Indies and batting has become all about power hitting and mindless slogging. Even 3rd rate sloggers like Johnson Charles are getting picked for international cricket.
And yes, I don't want to write much Darren Sammy, the bloke could be a half-decent limited overs player, but he just isn't good enough, and the fact that he's picked in the test side and made captain is symptomatic of the problems afflicting West Indies cricket.

Good topic , kingraf.

And might take my mind off England's current troubles   

But back at my desk this morning with emails overflowing etc ...promise considered response as soon as I can get head above water...

They got lucky when they had some great players came through in the same era, then like the Aussies, they went. Difference is, Cricket is no longer their number one sport, well some islands may see it as their top sport?

Raf - I'm far more an admirer of the West Indies' supremacy than an analyst of their downfall. Yes, that's the much easier and enjoyable option although perhaps the two have some common links.

KP_fan is certainly right to raise the issue of different nations. That historically has been a problem for West Indies' cricket. The one man who best addressed it was Clive Lloyd, the captain behind their dominance and who is now too often given insufficient credit for his role. From Lloyd's cricinfo profile: ''He united all disparate threads of the separate nations that make up the West Indies.''

Without Lloyd and his guidance, I doubt that the West Indies would have enjoyed so much success as they did. He did far more than just decide which of the 4 quicks to give the ball.

Before Lloyd, the West Indies had had great players - Headley, the 3 Ws, Kanhai, Hall, Gibbs and, of course, Sobers to name just some - but never an outstanding team. Cricinfo write of Lloyd's contribution, he ''was the force that gelled them as a team rather than a bunch of talented individuals'' and ''he instilled his talented side with the professionalism and determination to win consistently and when the conditions suited the opposition''.

Lloyd was certainly fortunate in the players he had available but he made the most of them. He had the quailty fastmen so he uniquely chose to play an all pace attack rather than the traditional approach of putting the best available spinner in even if he was below Test standard.

Add to that the availability of a brilliant opening batting partnership and the genius that was Richards. Lloyd also had tremendous credibility himself as a player. I'll leave msp to continue if he wishes to compare and contrast West Indies' captaincy then and now.

I certainly don't put the decline all down to the lessening of captaincy over the years but I think it has played a part and deserves a mention.

As I also said, Lloyd was fortunate in who he had available. KP-fan and msp cover some of the reasons why future generations haven't been properly developed. From my reading, many multi-talented West Indian young sportsmen now choose to seek basketball and baseball careers in the US rather than as cricketers on their home soil - that is a shame for West Indies cricket and our sport.

I've only been to the West Indies once and that was not to see cricket but a family holiday in 2004. During that time, Lara scored his unbeaten 400 at Antigua. What struck and surprised me was the apparent lack of interest* - especially by younger West Indians - in this achievement. Whether due to cricketing or other social reasons, I don't know.

Fully acknowledge it's a complex issue deserving a more thorough review than this.

* EDIT: backing up Stella's post (which I've only just seen), unlike my perception of previous decades cricket no longer seemed to be the stand out sport.

Am by no means an expert on cricket so please go easy on me if I am about to spout absolute drivel. I recall a good few years ago reading a piece in one of the broadsheets that tried to answer this very question and one of the reasons put forward in that piece was that the Windies got left behind when the sport began to embrace greater professionalism and athleticism.

Cannot remember the people involved but am sure the piece said at some point the Windies appointed a foreign coach or fitness specialist to try and bring them up to speed and when he put forward the fitness programme, diet and regime he was expecting the players to maintain, one he had used with other test nations, one of the senior players pretty much laughed in his face. Not sure how much of this is true or how accurately I am remembering it but would seem to tie in with the point made by others about the poor levels of administration for the game over there.

Rowley wrote:Am by no means an expert on cricket so please go easy on me if I am about to spout absolute drivel. I recall a good few years ago reading a piece in one of the broadsheets that tried to answer this very question and one of the reasons put forward in that piece was that the Windies got left behind when the sport began to embrace greater professionalism and athleticism.

Cannot remember the people involved but am sure the piece said at some point the Windies appointed a foreign coach or fitness specialist to try and bring them up to speed and when he put forward the fitness programme, diet and regime he was expecting the players to maintain, one he had used with other test nations, one of the senior players pretty much laughed in his face. Not sure how much of this is true or how accurately I am remembering it but would seem to tie in with the point made by others about the poor levels of administration for the game over there.

Jeff - that's a splendid post and anything but ''absolute drivel''.

I can't recall this particular appointment but your comments about the consequences don't greatly surprise me. I suspect matters would have been different with a sensibly authoritative captain which takes me back to the significance of Lloyd and the debt that West Indies cricket owed him during their reign.

Good to see you over here.

Certainly think that Guildford has identified an important point re captaincy. Looking at the history of WIndies cricket there are two periods when they could be said to have been either the best or one of the top two teams in the world. Briefly in the early 1960s, and for much longer during the 70s/80s. In both those periods they had outstanding captains. Worrell in the first and, as Guildford has mentioned, Lloyd in the second.
That is not to say that the WIndies haven't had other good, even very good captains, but it does suggest that they need a great captain to raise them to the greatest heights. Of course there are other problems as well. Cricket has so I've read, been replaced by football as the most popular sport in many West Indian countries. This may well have been the result of an initial decline in the standard of the national cricket, but it has become something of a self-fulfilling circle. This allied to a number of problems already identified mean that, even should a great captain emerge, he'd probably have an even more difficult task on his hands than his predecessors but, certainly, captaincy is IMO possibly a more important factor when looking at the rise and fall of WIndies cricket than, possibly, any other country.

Very interesting discussion.

I think most of the salient points have been brought up.

Certainly the lack of a single identity and hence unity has played a part. As well as the obvious on-field effect of a group of individuals rather than a team, there is also the political off-field and selectorial aspect of different countries being involved to consider - we've seen other boards like India be tied up in knots by regional bias and conflicts of interest in the past, and it shouldn't be a surprise that the West Indies have faced similar problems. Guildford is right to highlight how a good captain can unify a team (something even the great Sobers struggled to do, but the great Kanhai was instrumental in ushering in).

I am not sure that the advent of bowling machines was that much of a factor though: we have seen with Johnson this ashes series (but also some of Dale Steyn and even Morkel's spells over the last few years) that no matter how many balls you hit in the nets against quick balls, nothing can ultimately prepare you for the challenge of facing a genuine quick bowler with his tail up.

On the other hand, Rowley's point is a very good one, and one I can attest to from second hand evidence. I raised the issue of Walsh's refusal to move into the professional era when his nomination for the HoF came up (albeit nobody really listened) - in his case it was demonstrated by his attitude to batting and fielding. It is certainly true that the most senior West Indies players had a "carefree" attitude to modern standards (fitness, fielding, tail-end batting primely amongst them) and this rubbed off on other younger members of the side. The effect of this is non-negligeable - even today we see players simply not putting in the hard yards in the field or in the gym, which is simply inexcusable.

The rise of T20, particularly in an area of the world which isn't particularly affluent has no doubt played its part, as has the incompetence and corruption of the WICB.

The main factor, beyond all of that though, is that cricket is simply not that popular a sport anymore in the West Indies. Why this is we can but speculate but the islands have become generally more americanised and this has been reflected in their sporting culture as well - basketball and baseball are now more popular than cricket, and with - apart from IPL contracts - greater financial incentives.

I think unfortunately there is no obvious or easy way to reverse this decline - in fact, in all honesty I don't see how it is possible.

All good points above and an interesting topic to discuss.

As to the answer "when exactly...." - it's a tough one to pinpoint.

Obviously the changing of the pace barrage was incremental throughout the 90s but this, of course, coincided with the emergence of Lara from 1990. Even with declining bowling stocks and the "Americanisation" of sport in the West Indies which gathered momentum especially at this time - he (Lara) did manage to slow down the slide until the mid 00s when he retired.

The hairline cracks (early 90s) turned into bigger ones (mid 90s when Australia finally broke their 20 year dominance - since 1975/76) by winning the FW Trophy in the Carribean and again in 1996/97 in Australia... then series losses (from '97-'99) to Pakistan (away) and SA (away) really played a significant part in their demise.

As I say above - it was really quite a slow and painful downfall from grace over a long period of time - perhaps 10-15 years. England would then give them a hiding at home in 2000 after they had struggled in their 1998 away series and then Sri Lanka, India (early 00s) and even Bangladesh! (late 00s) would exploit their growing weaknesses and get the better of them.

Thanks to everyone for their well thought responses, though I'm sure my psychological blackmail towards the end of my post played a role (YOU real cricket fans, you!).

Currently reading Mark Boucher's autobiography, and in it he makes the point that no player, unless he has a trust fund in his name, or a particularly well paying Cricket Board can or should resist the lure of Mercenary cricket. It's a valid point, but perhaps having your best cricketers (is there any doubt that the likes of Roach, Gayle and Samuels are underperforming in relation to their talent?) touring the world playing for teams they don't bother learning to pronounce is not the best way forward? I don't think much can be done to save the Windies, watching LeBron James dunk and trying to replicate it is a much cooler activity than watching your team get hammered to all parts of a rugby ground that is twenty timezones away.

You blokes have made most of the points already , I think.

I am old enough to remember Worrell and his team , so I don't totally agree that Lloyd was the first to unite the West Indies as a team. What he did though was introduce a harder edge to their game : less calypso , more killer instinct.
As has been said , he had the players. The fast bowling stocks reached a "critical mass" at the right time , and the production line ran for a while...alas , all good things come to an end. Some promising quicks still emerge - or threaten to emerge - but they tend to be isolated ; and none has yet really come through to replace Ambrose and Walsh ...
Helped he had some good bats too : like Australia later ...perhaps just an accident of history ; cyclical etc.
So a fall was inevitable : but this one has been continuing too long. Not to expect a return to 1980 ...any more than Australia are likely to reprise the Warne/McGrath era anytime soon - but you would think there would be some revival apparent by now. So far , only the odd limited over triumph has lightened the Test Match gloom.

Why not ? All the usual suspects , I guess. Other interests for the youth ; divided Islands - different economic situations , but overall a lot more incentive to take the "easy" money on offer in the short game. And perhaps in this age of academies and very scientific approaches , they have just been left behind a bit. Or a lot. Maybe the very fact that they are composed of separate nations makes it harder to inspire the urgent drive to rise from a low - or reach a high - that causes richer and more unified countries to take urgent action when they fear their teams are slipping ? And also means a bit of a lack of leadership embraced by all...

Is there a way back ? Not obviously , to me : but I hope I am wrong. A strong West Indian team adds something unique to this game. Would not like to think we will never see one again.

My two cents....

There are several reasons for our decline:

1) County cricket being closed to West Indian players by ECB. Batsmen could no longer learn how to bat in conditions that encouraged you to move your feet, and bowlers could no longer learn to swing the ball.

2) Rise of athletics as a regional sport for success. It started with Quarrie and Crawford in 1976, at which time cricket was more popular than athletics in Jamaica. By the mid-1990s, that had changed in Jamaica, and now athletics have made inroads into getting talented sportsmen in places like Trinidad (Gordon, Walcott), St Kitts (Collins), Antigua (Bailey), Barbados (Brathwaite), Grenada (James), etc. My point about athletics is that we have a small population in the Caribbean, and a small pool of potential talented sportsmen. Usain Bolt and Yohan Blake both played cricket ahead of sprinting when they were at school, but both were persuaded, and opted, for athletics instead. They are both tall, powerful men, who could've been pace bowlers in another era, i.e. Holding, Patterson, Walsh. But now we can only produce short pace bowlers, like Taylor, Edwards and Best. I believe this is one of the reasons why....

3) Popularity of football, despite corruption and incompetence of CFU. Jamaica's qualification for the World Cup in 1998, and Trinidad in 2006, meant that football put further distance between themselves and cricket in those two countries, even though the national football programmes in those countries have been crap since then. I was in Jamaica last month, and all they could talk about was the failed World Cup campaign. A lot of folks didn't seem to be even aware that a cricket series was going on in New Zealand!

4) Fast-food mentality of the present generation means that they have no patience for Test cricket, and even ODI cricket. Youngsters are interested in sports that they can go to after work, and witness a completed result, i.e. a football match, or a T20 match.

5) Declining interest in cricket in the schools. When I went to school in Jamaica in the 1980s, we were able to produce cricket teams for every year group, i.e. first form, second form, etc. Now, the same school struggles to pull together an XI from the entire school to represent them at the schoolboy competitions. Michael Holding says the problem is the same at his alma mater. This has even affected the inaugural T20 competition in Jamaica. I see only eight schools were able to field teams for this competition. Ten times as many teams take part in the schoolboy football and athletics competitions....

6) Incompetence by successive WICB regimes have alienated a Caribbean public, leading to increased calls to "go it alone".

7) Increased irrelevance of the West Indies as a grouping. It has relevance to those of us on the wrong side of 40, who remember the Federation, and the movement for independence. But to youngsters nowadays, they are more interested in national allegiances. During the CPL, teams which bore national names drew larger crowds than the West Indies, i.e. Antigua Hawksbills filled North Sound for the first time ever, and Sabina Park was packed for the first time since the 1990s to witness the Jamaica Tallawahs.

In essence, I agree with KP fan's conclusion....

KP_fan wrote:
--what can be done?

Disband west Indies as one team

Instead

Let the islands constituting West Indies compete as Individual teams  in ICC tournaments and qualify for international events and tests...the individual pride as a nations will propel them further than this loosely collected  bunch called WI drive themselves.

--other wise they will remain individually brilliant talents...top stars in IPL and yet pathetic  in tests and medicore in ODIs

--

Mike Selig wrote:

The main factor, beyond all of that though, is that cricket is simply not that popular a sport anymore in the West Indies. Why this is we can but speculate but the islands have become generally more americanised and this has been reflected in their sporting culture as well - basketball and baseball are now more popular than cricket, and with - apart from IPL contracts - greater financial incentives.

I beg to differ...I think the influence of American sports is overplayed. Baseball is not popular at all, while a lot of Caribbean fans watch BNA basketball, but don't play it, or follow local basketball competitions. Cricket has slipped in popularity, but behind sports such as athletics and football.

guildfordbat wrote:

Rowley wrote:Am by no means an expert on cricket so please go easy on me if I am about to spout absolute drivel. I recall a good few years ago reading a piece in one of the broadsheets that tried to answer this very question and one of the reasons put forward in that piece was that the Windies got left behind when the sport began to embrace greater professionalism and athleticism.

Cannot remember the people involved but am sure the piece said at some point the Windies appointed a foreign coach or fitness specialist to try and bring them up to speed and when he put forward the fitness programme, diet and regime he was expecting the players to maintain, one he had used with other test nations, one of the senior players pretty much laughed in his face. Not sure how much of this is true or how accurately I am remembering it but would seem to tie in with the point made by others about the poor levels of administration for the game over there.

Jeff - that's a splendid post and anything but ''absolute drivel''.

I can't recall this particular appointment but your comments about the consequences don't greatly surprise me. I suspect matters would have been different with a sensibly authoritative captain which takes me back to the significance of Lloyd and the debt that West Indies cricket owed him during their reign.

Good to see you over here.

This issue has more to do with the rest of the world catching up with the West Indies....

Until the advent of Lloyd, cricket was a game played by fat and unfit cricketers. After the WSC, Lloyd recruited the services of Dennis Waight to make his men fit (see autobiographies of Holding, Lloyd and Marshall). This made the West Indies the fittest team in world cricket in the late 1970s onwards. However, the rest of the world caught up, and embraced fitness, at a time when cricket was in decline in the Caribbean. When Lara took over as captain, he objected to the fitness regimes imposed by Waight. Lara had an explosive argument with Waight, and the Aussie quit, after which the Windies turned back the clock where fitness was concerned.

shivfan wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

Rowley wrote:Am by no means an expert on cricket so please go easy on me if I am about to spout absolute drivel. I recall a good few years ago reading a piece in one of the broadsheets that tried to answer this very question and one of the reasons put forward in that piece was that the Windies got left behind when the sport began to embrace greater professionalism and athleticism.

Cannot remember the people involved but am sure the piece said at some point the Windies appointed a foreign coach or fitness specialist to try and bring them up to speed and when he put forward the fitness programme, diet and regime he was expecting the players to maintain, one he had used with other test nations, one of the senior players pretty much laughed in his face. Not sure how much of this is true or how accurately I am remembering it but would seem to tie in with the point made by others about the poor levels of administration for the game over there.

Jeff - that's a splendid post and anything but ''absolute drivel''.

I can't recall this particular appointment but your comments about the consequences don't greatly surprise me. I suspect matters would have been different with a sensibly authoritative captain which takes me back to the significance of Lloyd and the debt that West Indies cricket owed him during their reign.

Good to see you over here.

This issue has more to do with the rest of the world catching up with the West Indies....

Until the advent of Lloyd, cricket was a game played by fat and unfit cricketers. After the WSC, Lloyd recruited the services of Dennis Waight to make his men fit (see autobiographies of Holding, Lloyd and Marshall). This made the West Indies the fittest team in world cricket in the late 1970s onwards. However, the rest of the world caught up, and embraced fitness, at a time when cricket was in decline in the Caribbean. When Lara took over as captain, he objected to the fitness regimes imposed by Waight. Lara had an explosive argument with Waight, and the Aussie quit, after which the Windies turned back the clock where fitness was concerned.

Jesus - so you're telling me Jeff made a bigger contribution on my own cricket thread than me? Curse you Jeff*!!!


*But you know, only those curses that dont get me banned - I'm a "Zero-time offender"