What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case? It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

by Guest Fri 17 Jan 2014, 2:24 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin - the good thing with grumpy moods is that little things like seeing the clock ticking closer to the weekend, and a home game, can always fix it. And if Munster can stuff Edinburgh, and the Scarlet can beat Quins, on Sunday, then any hard feelings I have towards Munster and/or their fans will quickly dissipate

Oh an back on topic

CRYS16 - on ScarletFever wrote:This Sunday morning there is to be a debate chaired by BBC Wales on the current situation in Welsh Pro rugby. The programme will be recorded and broadcast later that day @ 18:15 on BBC 2 Wales.

As of now, we understand that it'll be a Question Time style session with the panel consisting of a WRU rep (don't know who as yet), Gareth Davies (Dragons CEO), David Moffett and, representing the 4 supporters' groups, Neil Bathgate of CRYS16.

We have been assured that the session will finish recording at lunch time, giving us enough time to return to Llanelli to watch our game.

Should be interesting to see how everyone comes across in that.

With Moffett there I hope the WRU rep' is Pickering himself devil

Not much time for Moffett, but will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Good to see the supporters groups represented, but someone representing the clubs would have been good for balance.

Should make for very interesting viewing boxing

by Cardiff Dave Fri 17 Jan 2014, 3:08 pm

Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin - the good thing with grumpy moods is that little things like seeing the clock ticking closer to the weekend, and a home game, can always fix it. And if Munster can stuff Edinburgh, and the Scarlet can beat Quins, on Sunday, then any hard feelings I have towards Munster and/or their fans will quickly dissipate

Oh an back on topic

CRYS16 - on ScarletFever wrote:This Sunday morning there is to be a debate chaired by BBC Wales on the current situation in Welsh Pro rugby. The programme will be recorded and broadcast later that day @ 18:15 on BBC 2 Wales.

As of now, we understand that it'll be a Question Time style session with the panel consisting of a WRU rep (don't know who as yet), Gareth Davies (Dragons CEO), David Moffett and, representing the 4 supporters' groups, Neil Bathgate of CRYS16.

We have been assured that the session will finish recording at lunch time, giving us enough time to return to Llanelli to watch our game.

Should be interesting to see how everyone comes across in that.

With Moffett there I hope the WRU rep' is Pickering himself Not much time for Moffett, but will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Good to see the supporters groups represented, but someone representing the clubs would have been good for balance.

Should make for very interesting viewing

I'm sure there will be several non-regional fans in the audience and if it's a proper QT, their opinions will be heard too.

by Cardiff Dave Fri 17 Jan 2014, 3:14 pm

Ooh it's a "special" ScrumV instead of an ordinary one;

ScrumV - Special

Duration: 45 minutes

The Welsh Rugby Union and its professional regions are locked in dispute over money and control of the game. With time running out for a decision, Gareth Lewis hosts a special debate on the uncertain future facing players, fans and those running the game.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03t3jmp

by Allty Fri 17 Jan 2014, 7:48 pm

[quote="ScarletSpiderman"][quote="Allty"][quote="Munchkin"]An important Twitter for some of the region fans:

Ospreys Supporters ‏@OspreysSC:

"Unfortunately, due to lack of interest, we won't be operating a bus to Bridgend for our LV Cup game against Sale."

Very Happy

[i]pinched from MunsterFans....[/i]
[/quote]

Brilliant Very Happy

Sadly its a true reflection of the support in Wales[/quote]

Or could it be that people are not exactly wanting to go to a reserves game (that is what the LV= is), when Team Wales will be playing the following day in the Millennium Stadium. I wonder how many Munster fans (or any Irish fans) would bother to go watch their A teams play in the B&I cup the day before/day of an International in Dublin?[/quote]

Of course it could be.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 17 Jan 2014, 8:28 pm

Allty I guess when we find that games attendance, and compare it to the Ospreys average attendance we should be able to work out if its lack of support, or just 6Ns v LV=.

by geoff999rugby Sun 19 Jan 2014, 11:59 am

on bigger matter this is a big move if true

" Sam Warburton is on the verge of making rugby history by signing up as a centrally contracted player to the Welsh Rugby Union in a deal believed to be in excess of £300,000 a year."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rug...d-Cardiff.html

This, if correct is a very significant move by the WRU.

by **Notch** Sun 19 Jan 2014, 12:04 pm

It would be a brilliant move for Welsh rugby- so important for young Welsh fans to be able to go and see players like Warburton in the flesh outside international windows.

by HammerofThunor Sun 19 Jan 2014, 12:22 pm

Notch wrote:It would be a brilliant move for Welsh rugby- so important for young Welsh fans to be able to go and see players like Warburton in the flesh outside international windows.

Who's he going to be playing for though? Or do you mean he'll go around doing signings in supermarkets outside internationals Smile

by Coleman Sun 19 Jan 2014, 2:00 pm

There was a ScrumV pannel today with members of the WRU and regional representatives. Did anyone go, any news on what was said?

by quinsforever Sun 19 Jan 2014, 2:06 pm

Notch wrote:It would be a brilliant move for Welsh rugby- so important for young Welsh fans to be able to go and see players like Warburton in the flesh outside international windows.

so he's going to be playing more matches for the regions when he's centrally contracted than when he's paid and contracted by the regions directly?

by **Notch** Sun 19 Jan 2014, 2:11 pm

He'll likely be playing the same amount of games as he is now, fitness depending, in truth. Whatever club he signs for he's going to pay for Wales during international windows so this is a good deal for the everyday Welsh rugby fan- if the regions accept it.

There are two options the way the season is structured and the economies of the regions, the Unions and the French sides. He can be on a central contract and play in all the big games for his region- or he can play for a team in France and play between zero and one non-international games in Wales a season. The regions don't have the money to keep him but he's done everything he can to stay in Wales.

Say it's your 'worst case scenario' and he only gets 10 club games in Wales a season or something. Thats 10 more than he'd be playing in France. How does the average fan in Wales miss out in this deal?

by quinsforever Sun 19 Jan 2014, 2:14 pm

but you realise that he's going to be playing even fewer games for the regions than the paltry few he already manages?

by quinsforever Sun 19 Jan 2014, 2:14 pm

especially if the wru loan him out to PRL clubs next season...

by **Notch** Sun 19 Jan 2014, 2:18 pm

quinsforever wrote:but you realise that he's going to be playing even fewer games for the regions than the paltry few he already manages?

Like I already said;

Notch wrote:Say it's your 'worst case scenario' and he only gets 10 club games in Wales a season or something. Thats 10 more than he'd be playing in France. How does the average fan in Wales miss out in this deal?

If his persistent injuries clear up he'll probably play more than he does now. It's still far from an ideal situation- fans will only get value once the relationship between the Unions and the regions is improved. But say he manages something very disappointing like three games a year due to injury. Three more chances for some kid to go and see the Captain of Wales than if he was in Clermont.

The PRL thing, I think is a ridiculous red herring- if a Union actually did that, they'd want to start drafting letters of resignation.Similarly if the regions all passed on the chance to have Warburton on a central contract- thats also quite stupid. Whichever side was seen to be driving Welsh players who want to stay in Wales outside the country will be seen to have scored a massive own goal.

by The Saint Sun 19 Jan 2014, 2:30 pm

Thing is, Halfpenny wouldn't be on much more than that down at Toulon. I can see the attraction in playing for Toulon but I don't think it'll be a good move for him at this stage of his career. Plus, Halfpenny is probably worth as much as Johnny, but won't get anywhere near that as he's still playing internationally.

*In reply to Warburton's central contract offer.

by HammerofThunor Sun 19 Jan 2014, 3:02 pm

Notch, for one it depends on a team taking him on. Currently the regions refuse to play central contracted players. The other is where is the money coming from? Previously the WRU had said it would come out of the money they currently give the regions. If it's on top of it, fine. So what will happen is the WRU will take back some money that the regions decided they couldn't afford to 'waste' on a guy who plays a couple of games for them. And spend it on the player. This would be no different than the region just offering a higher salary they can't afford.

As I said, if the money used is in addition to the money already given to the regions then that's better.

by quinsforever Sun 19 Jan 2014, 3:41 pm

The Saint wrote:Thing is, Halfpenny wouldn't be on much more than that down at Toulon. I can see the attraction in playing for Toulon but I don't think it'll be a good move for him at this stage of his career. Plus, Halfpenny is probably worth as much as Johnny, but won't get anywhere near that as he's still playing internationally.

*In reply to Warburton's central contract offer.

a FB, no matter how good, is never going to get paid as much as the FH. comes down to the number of times they touch the ball in open play.

by The Saint Sun 19 Jan 2014, 4:07 pm

Fair enough, though I was under that impression as they're both high percentage goal kickers. Also, I believe Halfpenny can do the job at FH if needs be Wink

.

by HammerofThunor Sun 19 Jan 2014, 6:03 pm

Just a reminder that the 'debate' scrum v special is on in 10 minutes.

by geoff999rugby Sun 19 Jan 2014, 7:01 pm

Any news?

by HammerofThunor Sun 19 Jan 2014, 7:08 pm

Not really. There is supposed to be a meeting between the 6 Nations unions this Tuesday. I thought that was regarding the 6 Nations itself but who knows. Other than that it was just the same stuff over again.

Oh, Lewis said the money for the 'central contracts' is extra (I thought they didn't have any more available, good ol' Rog).

by **Notch** Sun 19 Jan 2014, 7:15 pm

I'm not particularly hopeful for a speedy resolution after that, having watched it.

Someone needs to bang some heads together. Roger Lewis seems relatively ignorant of the core problems Moffett left for him and the demeanour of that man illustrates how they got into this mess in the first place...

by ScarletSpiderman Sun 19 Jan 2014, 8:38 pm

Just watched it, all that I got from it is Roger has been hoarding cash, and is now willing to share, but not enough put together meaningful sides should the regions, or their backers show him the finger. Oh, and Moffet is still a bit of an arrogant too, but seems to have the better of Roger when it comes to sounding like he has a clue. So deadlock continues.

by geoff998rugby Mon 20 Jan 2014, 9:36 am

Being rumoured that AWJ is close to a centrral contract as well

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 20 Jan 2014, 12:16 pm

On the Scrum V debate, there are a few folks on twitter complaining about the editing of the show, by the sounds of it Roger Lewis had it made clear to him that his dodging of questions was getting up peoples noses etc.

by quinsforever Mon 20 Jan 2014, 12:21 pm

haha. yes i could hear in the background, shouts of "politician" and "answer the question". suspect it was a lot more of the same.

confirms to me that real rugby fans support a club AND the national team. that's why the audience was so anti-roger lewis. his natural supporters probably dont understand anything about the regions/wru issue, they just like a nice day out at MS with big pink hats.

by Guest Mon 20 Jan 2014, 12:21 pm

My problem in all of this (well, one of my problems. With this fiasco I have many!) is that the proposed solution is, yet again, a half-way house. The set up of the regions was a half-way house and led to the quasi region/superclubs things; the funding of the regions by the WRU is half-hearted - just a small amount of money for the participation agreement; and the solution to the problems from the WRU are a half-way house - they'll centrally contract a hand full of players, perhaps 6 to 8.

I can't see what that's going to do, apart from stop those 6 or so players leaving Wales. I believe the money will come from the money the regions currently get through competitions or the participation agreement. So the regions will be in the same boat really: same funding but with a few of their star assets not being under their control anymore.

What we need is a complete overhaul and a strong intervention. Either full central contracts for a whole Wales squad (or a whole 4 squads like in Ireland) or not at all. This half-way house approach has been used all along and contributed to the current mess. We need to decide what camp we're in - independent clubs or Union run franchises. Being somewhere in between will only ever cause friction, figthing and blaming whenever anything goes wrong.

All of this is honestly turning me off rugby. Never thought I'd say it. If I'm lost to it (and I love my rugby) then how many occasional and casual fans have gone the same way?

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Jan 2014, 12:26 pm

I'm not 100% on the system in Ireland but I was under the impression that the majority of the squads were contracted to their provincial branch of the IRFU, which although part of the IRFU isn't. Their fiances are not part of the IRFU and are effectively run as independent bodies (although I imagine the guys running them are under guidance/instruction from the IRFU etc). Then the 'International' squad is centrally contracted to the IRFU itself, and isn't the number of these supposed to be dropping? I'm sure someone said it was, or was going to be, just 16 players.

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Jan 2014, 12:27 pm

Sorry, carrying on from previous post, if the Regions are going to be kept they need to be allowed to be more involved in the community rugby in their region. If the WRU doesn't want to give them complete control they should set up 4 (or 5 including the GOGs) regional bodies that are governed by the Regions and WRU representatives.

by lostinwales Mon 20 Jan 2014, 12:31 pm

Notch wrote:It would be a brilliant move for Welsh rugby- so important for young Welsh fans to be able to go and see players like Warburton in the flesh outside international windows.

Open physio sessions?

by Guest Mon 20 Jan 2014, 12:36 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm not 100% on the system in Ireland but I was under the impression that the majority of the squads were contracted to their provincial branch of the IRFU, which although part of the IRFU isn't. Their fiances are not part of the IRFU and are effectively run as independent bodies (although I imagine the guys running them are under guidance/instruction from the IRFU etc). Then the 'International' squad is centrally contracted to the IRFU itself, and isn't the number of these supposed to be dropping? I'm sure someone said it was, or was going to be, just 16 players.

According to some of the Irish posters (e.g. Notch) in Ireland ALL players are centrally contracted, one way or another. The international players are centrally contracted, but then the provinces are funded to the tune of X million which they use to pay wages. I think the figure last year that the union spend on the pro game was something like 33m Euros.

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Jan 2014, 12:43 pm

Depends what you mean by central contracts I suppose. but yes, money comes from the IRFU to the Provincial Branches to suppliment the sponsorship, ticket revenue, etc they generate themselves.

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 20 Jan 2014, 1:36 pm

Griff wrote:All of this is honestly turning me off rugby. Never thought I'd say it. If I'm lost to it (and I love my rugby) then how many occasional and casual fans have gone the same way?

Me and my Dad both said something similar on Sunday. No matter what happens with the RRW/WRU poop-storm the whole thing is going to leave a foul taste in your mouth. Best case scenario is the union up funding (or centrally contract players from the Unions cash), and we continue in a watered down Rabo (minus the Italians) and a watered down Europe (minus the English), means we will still be in a similar position to where we are now with best players missing most the season, and a lot of games that are under attended. Worst case scenario the regions disappear totally, and new regions come in. I will feel obliged to support west-wales, but will become a TV fan again.

by SecretFly Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:13 pm

Griff wrote:

All of this is honestly turning me off rugby. Never thought I'd say it. If I'm lost to it (and I love my rugby) then how many occasional and casual fans have gone the same way?

I suggest maybe none?

As in occasional fans don't read the small print of rugby, they don't read the business end, they are on the fringes. Most of the occasionals will turn up for the 6N and some of them will be quite surprised to hear that Rugby Union has been in a terrible auld longwinded fight with itself now for many months. The issue will undoubtedly be scanned over by commentators during the 6N during lulls in the action and I honestly think many of the casuals will yawn and mutter something along the lines of: "Oh there must be some problems where these players play their club rugby. - You know, where they are all year when not in an International shirt. - Yeah, they call them 'clubs' I think. No, no mate.... they do. All them lads on the English team play for different sides when not playing International. They play against each other and knock the stuffing out of each other. No, I'm not pulling your leg, mate. It's true. It happens."

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:16 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Griff wrote:

All of this is honestly turning me off rugby. Never thought I'd say it. If I'm lost to it (and I love my rugby) then how many occasional and casual fans have gone the same way?

I suggest maybe none?

As in occasional fans don't read the small print of rugby, they don't read the business end, they are on the fringes. Most of the occasionals will turn up for the 6N and some of them will be quite surprised to hear that Rugby Union has been in a terrible auld longwinded fight with itself now for many months. The issue will undoubtedly be scanned over by commentators during the 6N during lulls in the action and I honestly think many of the casuals will yawn and mutter something along the lines of: "Oh there must be some problems where these players play their club rugby. - You know, where they are all year when not in an International shirt. - Yeah, they call them 'clubs' I think. No, no mate.... they do. All them lads on the English team play for different sides when not playing International. They play against each other and knock the stuffing out of each other. No, I'm not pulling your leg, mate. It's true. It happens."

Pretty good summing up of the pink hats clap

by Cardiff Dave Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:28 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin - the good thing with grumpy moods is that little things like seeing the clock ticking closer to the weekend, and a home game, can always fix it. And if Munster can stuff Edinburgh, and the Scarlet can beat Quins, on Sunday, then any hard feelings I have towards Munster and/or their fans will quickly dissipate

Oh an back on topic

CRYS16 - on ScarletFever wrote:This Sunday morning there is to be a debate chaired by BBC Wales on the current situation in Welsh Pro rugby. The programme will be recorded and broadcast later that day @ 18:15 on BBC 2 Wales.

As of now, we understand that it'll be a Question Time style session with the panel consisting of a WRU rep (don't know who as yet), Gareth Davies (Dragons CEO), David Moffett and, representing the 4 supporters' groups, Neil Bathgate of CRYS16.

We have been assured that the session will finish recording at lunch time, giving us enough time to return to Llanelli to watch our game.

Should be interesting to see how everyone comes across in that.

With Moffett there I hope the WRU rep' is Pickering himself Not much time for Moffett, but will be interesting to hear what he has to say. Good to see the supporters groups represented, but someone representing the clubs would have been good for balance.

Should make for very interesting viewing

I'm sure there will be several non-regional fans in the audience and if it's a proper QT, their opinions will be heard too.

Wow, I was way off.

by Cardiff Dave Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:34 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:On the Scrum V debate, there are a few folks on twitter complaining about the editing of the show, by the sounds of it Roger Lewis had it made clear to him that his dodging of questions was getting up peoples noses etc.

Some interesting reports from those who were in the audience.

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:34 pm

Well they had a couple from Bath and the guy from Connacht. Also the Cross Keys and Newtown fellas

by Cardiff Dave Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:40 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Just watched it, all that I got from it is Roger has been hoarding cash, and is now willing to share, but not enough put together meaningful sides should the regions, or their backers show him the finger. Oh, and Moffet is still a bit of an arrogant too, but seems to have the better of Roger when it comes to sounding like he has a clue. So deadlock continues.

Servicing of the MS debt was a point raised by Moffett yet it wasn't discussed at all.

by Cardiff Dave Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:46 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Well they had a couple from Bath and the guy from Connacht. Also the Cross Keys and Newtown fellas

and all pre-planned apparently. Not worth putting your hand up in other words.

by SecretFly Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:52 pm

The Welsh need a mediator.... who is not Welsh or linked to Welsh rugby. But seriously, I thought the Irish were renowned for fighting around the same circle and epic, epic, donkey-like stubborness.

I have a feeling both sides feel pressured now in the knowledge that this one epic needs a solution soon. The rugby calendar requires it. So the fight isn't so much about the topic as it is about the sense of frustration that this lovely fight (practically as long as the regions themselves have been in existence) must come to an end soon - with some result, positive or negative for either the WRU or the regions.

Someone needs to say enough of this circle. We'll make a decision and live with it.

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:52 pm

Well I didn't think the guy who used to do a crap job with Scrum V (Lewis?) scanned the crowd for non-regional shirts Smile

It was very amusing that his little pre-written speaks were delivered out to the crowd and I don't think I heard a single positive response to him. What was the crowd make up? It sounded like pure RRW supportors.

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:53 pm

SecretFly wrote:The Welsh need a mediator.... who is not Welsh or linked to Welsh rugby. But seriously, I thought the Irish were renowned for fighting around the same circle and epic, epic, donkey-like stubborness.

I have a feeling both sides feel pressured now in the knowledge that this one epic needs a solution soon. The rugby calendar requires it. So the fight isn't so much about the topic as it is about the sense of frustration that this lovely fight (practically as long as the regions themselves have been in existence) must come to an end soon - with some result, positive of negative for either the WRU or the regions.

Someone needs to say enough of this circle. We'll make a decision and live with it.

Yep, they could move the base of the WRU to Dublin next to all the others.

by SecretFly Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:56 pm

Rent a RRW Riot is I think the crowdsourcing site used Wink

by Allty Mon 20 Jan 2014, 3:58 pm

It looked that way.

by SecretFly Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:00 pm

THe WRU should have countered that with a crowd from Rent a Pink Hat Handbagger. They've gotta play this propaganda war smarter!

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:06 pm

SecretFly wrote:THe WRU should have countered that with a crowd from Rent a Pink Hat Handbagger. They've gotta play this propaganda war smarter!

Unfortunately those guys are so uninterested in actual Welsh rugby they couldn't even be paid to turn up.

by SecretFly Mon 20 Jan 2014, 4:20 pm

Never underestimate a pink hat. Their season approaches. They fill stadia. They take layers off WRU debt each year. They inhabit the most successful side of Welsh rugby these past six or seven years.

The WRU know that the Pink hatters may not have a rugby brain between their ears, but they're the bums on seats that fills the coffers each season... not the Regional crowds that stay mostly at home.

by HammerofThunor Mon 20 Jan 2014, 7:20 pm

I suppose they could still get their face on the tele with a televised debate

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 20 Jan 2014, 7:36 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:I suppose they could still get their face on the tele with a televised debate

Would have stood out quite a bit being half cut during a rather sobering debate.

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