What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales
 

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

I haven't heard much recently about the regions from the rabbo to join the premiership. The last that I heard was that the IRB came out to say that it would not support cross border competitions that the unions were against and that this merger could only go ahead if a legal case were brought to support it.

Is this move still on the cards/ at least a serious option? Are the English club sides, including the championship teams in favour of it?

Not a serious option. The WRU will block it, the championship clubs would be in uproar, there is realistically no space in the calender, there is no possibility of a court case - no grounds to have one.

Championships are supposedly dead against it but it depends what form it takes. Lewis has said the RFU have told him they're against it. The only way it could go ahead if the lawyers showed that the WRU (and RFU) are 'unlawful' in blocking it. This has very slim chance of working out for them.

I cannot see on what grounds there could be a legal case - its not restraint of trade as the PRL and RRW could simply go and play their own league outside of the unions. Unions could then refuse insurance, funding, refs and so on as they would have no obligation to do so once the clubs left their control.

Anyone any idea?

Their trade is professional rugby union. How is not letting them take part in rugby union not restricting their trade? The question is whether the restriction is within the realms of what's best for the game in Wales.

They can still play rugby union.  they can play a wenglo league - just not under IRB / RFU /WRU protection.  All funding could be withdrawn, players not selected for internationals etc etc.  there is no restraint of trade as they can still play a 16 team wenglo league. No possible case for restraint of trade. No merit in that at all.

"it is the privilege of a trader in a free country, in all matters not contrary to law, to regulate his own mode of carrying it on according to his own discretion and choice. If the law has regulated or restrained his mode of doing this, the law must be obeyed. But no power short of the general law ought to restrain his free discretion."

Mitchell v Reynolds (1711)

No restraint of trade as nothing stops them doing a wenglo league. Just ass the RFU and WRU would not have to fund them, insure them, etc etc Possible case from the playerts if international selection is refused but I doubt that as not every player would have been selected

yes. if the rfu is doing what they are constitutionally expected to do (whats best for rugby in wales) it will be incumbent on whoever wants to win the court case to show that what they want is actually whats in the best interest of welsh rugby. seems like a massive quagmire to me. was interesting in the scrum v debate that the lawyer who worked on the previous player release court case between WRU and RRW, said that a court case would be high risk for both sides. highly dependent on the subjective opinion of whichever judge got the case.

championship is against it as there is no proposal that they have in front of them. if the proposal were, 15 clubs in AP next yr (12+3 welsh), 13 in championshi (12+1 welsh) which would normalise to 14 in each in 2-3 years time, and that regular promotion and relegation would apply just as it does now, then their ears would definitely be open.

calendar would be more than cleared by no LV= Cup

Having watched the debate on scrum v with some of the leading figures in wales and the community games as was surprised and some of the lines of questions.

There was a massive section to the exodus of the regions to join the English league. It seemed to be a total waste of time in some respects. It is clear neither the RFU or WRU would sanction this in a million years. Additionally I cannot see PRL going through with this knowing the club game in England would be in uproar in any such move. The regions can still legally challenge this but as pointed out by the legal expert this would be at best a 50/50 call. Lose and they almost certainly go bust. Win and you get your way but probably wouldn't be sanctioned by either the IRB/RFU or the WRU meaning none of your players would be playing international rugby. Total non starter.

Another thing clear was that Moffet has no place in Welsh Rugby. His arrogance astounds me and I would urge clubs not to be stupid and support this man from gaining any primary role in welsh governance.

I actually though Roger acted well and refused to be drawn into throwing fuel on the fire in terms of creating new teams. Additionally he pointed out the walk out is definitely something only being talked by one side at this current time.

What frightens me is that despite all the rehearsed questions none of the key ones had been asked. For starters. The Product. Do the regions really think that by changing the opposition that magically dollars appear out of thin air. Having been a Dragons supporter for the last decade I have experienced the ups and downs of the regional game. Hard core fans will always be there. The issue of support however is several fold.

Competitiveness - Other than die hard fans others wont follow if they are watching their team getting tonked by 30 points every week. It one of the primary reasons Dragons support has fallen off so badly in recent years despite us having the best hardcore rugby fans in wales.

Economy - Wales is suffering big time. Household don't have the disposable income such as in France and England. While other markets are picking up Wales is still not in recovery. Therefore given the fact so much rugby is televised and money is tight, don't expect a massive upturn despite any other criteria being met.

Brand and Success - With football in south wales being on a massive high, the competition from another rival sport is greater than ever. I have friends who used to join me at rugby matches but since have been more inclined to go to football games despite them following rugby. The product the regions produce at times has been woeful. The Irish are setting standards in league and European competitiveness and ive watched countless games where some of the regions have produced lack lustre performances. If the region and its players cant find urgency and style during matches even without pressure, then what are they asking their fans to do? Hand over their hard earned cash despite what is being served up? At least the Dragons with the least funding of the 4 has at least produced courageous performances. I've lost count how many times the Blues and Ospreys have just gone through the motions. Its not hard to see why fans are not being captivated. I don't just blame the management at the regions of this. Some of this is down to the coaching and the players for those teams.

I'd also add that while any Anglo Welsh League is always shown with the big match ups, I find nothing appealing from going to see the lesser English sides. For example I passed up free tickets to watch Exeter vs Blues. Granted im not a Blues fan but Exeter didn't really excite me either to warrant me turning up.

Secondly, with the news the Blues have just made their first capture of overseas signings (from the NPC in New Zealand, which is the basically semi professional), I speechless that we are going to see second tier foreign talent hitting our shores in the summer. When we had people like Holah, Marshall & Collins playing in Wales you couldn't question the experience or pedigree. Now we are being told that in all of Wales there are no deserving young players for these spaces, and so they have to recruit second string new Zealand provincial players. You'd think the regions are participating in a relegation league with such little forward thinking. We are seeing the same mentality at the Ospreys and Scarlets where a bunch of second rate Canadians, South Africans & South sea islanders are heading to our shores. I despair at the message this is sending to our younger generation. Surely you should put a plan in place to be bringing in youth. In 10 years of regional rugby those cycles of replacing players should be in place. After all even if you don't lose those players to overseas clubs, retirement will surely be a factor. So long term shouldn't local talent be identified and promoted. I fail to believe that there are not suitable welsh youngsters who would be far more motivated to learn and succeed than any import will ever be. Sure you will have hits and misses but shouldn't be that be our mantra? I'm not slating foreign signings either but surely bringing in players who enhance the reputation of the league and bring something in terms of quality to it should be paramount. Given that we know anyone with quality is heading to France signing second rate players from abroad is folly?!

I think I'm just mildly frustrated because of that program because to me the key issues have nothing to do with finance. Based on money Ireland shouldn't be able to compete with France. But they do.

There is another issue which I don't think anyone has touched on. The regions seem to want or need more revenue from additional matches. I actually think Rugby cant sustain a similar calendar to football for example. It's a contact sport and if Super Rugby has shows us anything is that less is more. Its fundamentally why the French league is flawed. Contact sports cannot be played every weekend of the year like a non contact sport can (such as football etc). I believe the future should hold less matches but with far more quality on offer.

TJ wrote:

"it is the privilege of a trader in a free country, in all matters not contrary to law, to regulate his own mode of carrying it on according to his own discretion and choice. If the law has regulated or restrained his mode of doing this, the law must be obeyed. But no power short of the general law ought to restrain his free discretion."

Mitchell v Reynolds (1711)

No restraint of trade as nothing stops them doing a wenglo league.  Just ass the RFU and WRU would not have to fund them, insure them, etc etc Possible case from the playerts if international selection is refused but I doubt that as not every player would have been selected

its a bit more complicated than that. they have a very legitimate shot at challenging the oversight of unions and IRB in general. these are organisation and regulations from an amateur era, and the law, which you quoted, all the way back to 1711, refers to the ability of a "trader...to regulate his own mode of carrying it on". it is 100% NOT clear that the irb would win any of this in a angland&wales or EU court. that's why they keep trying to get other unions to put the kibbosh on...i think i started another tread on that particular irony.

But where is the restraint of trade? The 16 would still be able to play in an unsanctioned league. They would still be able to ply their trade.

and if the rfu sanctioned, and only the wru didnt? then they would have a good case that the wru were not doing what was in the best interests of welsh rugby. that the wru were in fact trying to impoverish and weaken them so as to take control of the professional club game. i think that would get a lot of traction in a courtroom.

the prl have made it 100% clear they are not going to attempt to play in unsanctioned tournaments so that bit wont happen. for wenglo league just like an unsanctioned euro league.

still no restraint of trade.  the teams would still be able to play their wenglo league. What would be the basis to sue?

just to be clear, in spite of what roger lewis said, the wru has absolutely no mandate to look after the interests of scottish, irish and italian rugby insofar as the rabo12 is concerned. the fact that roger lewis mentioned was not sensible from a legal perspective.

TJ wrote:still no restraint of trade.  the teams would still be able to play their wenglo league.  What would be the basis to sue?

TJ, the barrister on the scrum v debate suggested that this is a 50/50 issue, and that was without the RFU approving, that was just referring to RRW vs WRU. he, having worked on the previous wru v rrw legal fight, presumably has greater insight than you or i. so i go with his, 50/50 and only the lawyers get rich assessment.

The only way this option even goes to court, if the Regions and PRL jointly legally challenge this. I just don't see the PRL challenging the PRL on this point which almost certainly will leave the Welsh out in the cold.

The other interesting point is that the Champions cup and league are only on a 3 year term. Surely a agreement with the WRU lasting for 5-10 years is more sustainable than any 3 year model. They have no idea what will happen with their income after 3 years. Makes more sense to take less on offer but secure your income for the long haul. One thing is clear though, financially even the English cannot now compete with the money available in France. The player drain will affect every nation outside of France.

good chat, but i'm signing off now.

fingers crossed, somehow, magically, it all gets sorted at the meeting which is allegedly taking place tomorrow.

Welshmushroom wrote:The only way this option even goes to court, if the Regions and PRL jointly legally challenge this.  I just don't see the PRL challenging the PRL on this point which almost certainly will leave the Welsh out in the cold.

The other interesting point is that the Champions cup and league are only on a 3 year term.  Surely a agreement with the WRU lasting for 5-10 years is more sustainable than any 3 year model.  They have no idea what will happen with their income after 3 years.  Makes more sense to take less on offer but secure your income for the long haul.  One thing is clear though, financially even the English cannot now compete with the money available in France.  The player drain will affect every nation outside of France.  

england have lots of great players coming through. those that want to wear white will stay. those, like flood, wilko etc who can make lots of money for themselves in france will do so. win-win as far as i am concerned. legends like wilko get really well paid. young guns develop here in the very competitive AP. what the f does that have to do with national team performance anyway?

insofar as it relates to club matches. i love watching clermont and toulon's star studded sides. absolutely love it.

quinsforever wrote:just to be clear, in spite of what roger lewis said, the wru has absolutely no mandate to look after the interests of scottish, irish and italian rugby insofar as the rabo12 is concerned. the fact that roger lewis mentioned was not sensible from a legal perspective.

I think he meant this in the respect that the future of Welsh Rugby is linked with these Unions. If they fail to survive its only a matter of time for professional rugby in consumed by English and French rugby, with the latter being the final winners. At that stage France will likely be turning out the next Jones's, Carters, Wilkinson's in French jersey's. That in turn could lead to France dominating World rugby internationally as well as the club based game.

quinsforever wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:The only way this option even goes to court, if the Regions and PRL jointly legally challenge this.  I just don't see the PRL challenging the PRL on this point which almost certainly will leave the Welsh out in the cold.

The other interesting point is that the Champions cup and league are only on a 3 year term.  Surely a agreement with the WRU lasting for 5-10 years is more sustainable than any 3 year model.  They have no idea what will happen with their income after 3 years.  Makes more sense to take less on offer but secure your income for the long haul.  One thing is clear though, financially even the English cannot now compete with the money available in France.  The player drain will affect every nation outside of France.  

england have lots of great players coming through. those that want to wear white will stay. those, like flood, wilko etc who can make lots of money for themselves in france will do so. win-win as far as i am concerned. legends like wilko get really well paid. young guns develop here in the very competitive AP. what the f does that have to do with national team performance anyway?

insofar as it relates to club matches. i love watching clermont and toulon's star studded sides. absolutely love it.

England do have a lot of potential coming through. But is it developing in a meaningful competition. We are already seeing the Aviva being a 2 horse race this year. I really question what some of the sides are bringing to the table in terms of quality. It's primarily why England are unearthing the talent in the first place. They are getting a lot of game time, unlike other nations current academy systems where the starting places are earned on merit. Burns for example illustrates this point perfectly. Burns has talent. I wouldn't rate him higher than 6 or 7 of the non capped 10's we have flying around in Wales. Morgan by contrast has far more class by contrast. Burns however will gain more experience has due to the amount of English clubs around with a lack of natural English 10's around. Thus he gains more exposure and develops faster at club level. However at some point (as we are seeing already) a player will only develop further based on the quality of opposition and the quality of players around him. The most talent player in the world would not develop if the team around him and opposition against him did not challenge him to improve. Its why in my opinion so many new England caps fail at international level to make any real mark. Farrell is for example the only consistent 10 in England. But he wouldn't even feature in a top 5 fly halves in world rugby on current form.

Welshmushroom wrote:

quinsforever wrote:just to be clear, in spite of what roger lewis said, the wru has absolutely no mandate to look after the interests of scottish, irish and italian rugby insofar as the rabo12 is concerned. the fact that roger lewis mentioned was not sensible from a legal perspective.

I think he meant this in the respect that the future of Welsh Rugby is linked with these Unions.  If they fail to survive its only a matter of time for professional rugby in consumed by English and French rugby, with the latter being the final winners.  At that stage France will likely be turning out the next Jones's, Carters, Wilkinson's in French jersey's.  That in turn could lead to France dominating World rugby internationally as well as the club based game.  

he actually mentioned it a few weeks ago in a moral perspective of not abandoning his celtic union partners in the rabo. totally understand his sentiments. but that is not part of his mandate, and if he pursues this laudable goal to the detriment of the welsh regions then he will, from a legal perspective, regret it.

i noticed that there was zero mention of this on scrum v from roger lewis. he was probably advised so to not mention.

Welshmushroom wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:The only way this option even goes to court, if the Regions and PRL jointly legally challenge this.  I just don't see the PRL challenging the PRL on this point which almost certainly will leave the Welsh out in the cold.

The other interesting point is that the Champions cup and league are only on a 3 year term.  Surely a agreement with the WRU lasting for 5-10 years is more sustainable than any 3 year model.  They have no idea what will happen with their income after 3 years.  Makes more sense to take less on offer but secure your income for the long haul.  One thing is clear though, financially even the English cannot now compete with the money available in France.  The player drain will affect every nation outside of France.  

england have lots of great players coming through. those that want to wear white will stay. those, like flood, wilko etc who can make lots of money for themselves in france will do so. win-win as far as i am concerned. legends like wilko get really well paid. young guns develop here in the very competitive AP. what the f does that have to do with national team performance anyway?

insofar as it relates to club matches. i love watching clermont and toulon's star studded sides. absolutely love it.

England do have a lot of potential coming through.  But is it developing in a meaningful competition.  We are already seeing the Aviva being a 2 horse race this year.  I really question what some of the sides are bringing to the table in terms of quality.  It's primarily why England are unearthing the talent in the first place.  They are getting a lot of game time, unlike other nations current academy systems where the starting places are earned on merit.  Burns for example illustrates this point perfectly.  Burns has talent.  I wouldn't rate him higher than 6 or 7 of the non capped 10's we have flying around in Wales.  Morgan by contrast has far more class by contrast.  Burns however will gain more experience has due to the amount of English clubs around with a lack of natural English 10's around.  Thus he gains more exposure and develops faster at club level.  However at some point (as we are seeing already) a player will only develop further based on the quality of opposition and the quality of players around him.  The most talent player in the world would not develop if the team around him and opposition against him did not challenge him to improve.  Its why in my opinion so many new England caps fail at international level to make any real mark.  Farrell is for example the only consistent 10 in England.  But he wouldn't even feature in a top 5 fly halves in world rugby on current form.

  do you follow english club rugby? or just flyhalves? england are irb ranked #4 and at this stage i#m fairly happy with that. decent pack, few absentee key backs, but lots of improvement to come hopefully from a young pack and backs.

how is this emblematic of a weak AP? we have fierce competition for many positions. i know it's the advantage of a big rugby playing population, but its also the advantage of a strong club/scademy/saxons/eps development regime.

runaway 2? we have a playoff system that determines league winners, just like the top14. and many's the time the top 2 havent won. so we still have an exciting end of season to come, irrespective of how far away sarries and saints get by april.

and lets not start on the rabo shall we.

[quote="Welshmushroom"]Having watched the debate on scrum v with some of the leading figures in wales and the community games as was surprised and some of the lines of questions.  

tally why the French league is flawed.  Contact sports cannot be played every weekend of the year like a non contact sport can (such as football etc).  I believe the future should hold less matches but with far more quality on offer.
[/quote]


My sentiments exactly.

allty, prob easier for everyone if you dont re-post the whole article?

WM,

Are Dragons attendances falling? I was under the impression they were rising slightly if anything?

Seems like more people think Roger did not come across well. I'll have to wait till I can watch it Thursday to pass judgement properly. Also, does anybody know who the Cross Keys guy was and what was he saying? I'm guessing Colin Vernall, but not seen it mentioned anywhere.

From memory I think he was the guy who said you can't expect a guy to come in on a white charger and save the day. The solution to the problems in Welsh rugby is in Wales. I think it was in response to the talk of AW league

Ah ok. Was only interested to see if he was criticising regions at all. Seems to be a bit that way on twitter, though he seems a bit of a technophobe, so sometimes it's hard to decipher what he's on about. Was just curious as he seems to criticise Dragons sometimes, but then Greg Woods (the keys coach) was seemingly pretty full of praise about the link up.

Anyway, I've digressed somewhat. I'll wait till Thursday when I've hopefully watched it.

Well he was responding to the idea of AW league that the regions said was an option (which I read as they would look into it, not it was already sorted). So it kind of was against the regions, but he wasn't pro-WRU, just wanted it sorted out in Wales (so WRU and RRW agreeing). Not sure if he was getting at a full pro comp in Wales (as in don't rely on external factors). He certainly didn't directly suggest it.

HammerofThunor wrote:Well he was responding to the idea of AW league that the regions said was an option (which I read as they would look into it, not it was already sorted). So it kind of was against the regions, but he wasn't pro-WRU, just wanted it sorted out in Wales (so WRU and RRW agreeing). Not sure if he was getting at a full pro comp in Wales (as in don't rely on external factors). He certainly didn't directly suggest it.

And even when he said the Anglo-welsh is not a realistic option, all he said was that when they have played against Ealing in the B&I Cup, and other championship sides, that the championship sides were against it.

Also his line about nobody coming in on a white charger to sort things out, and it is a welsh problem for welsh people to solve in wales, was coupled with a nod of his head at Moffet.

Seen this posted elsewhere on the web

"Aurwel Morgan, District D representative has today resigned from his post on the board of Directors of the WRU"

I can't find any articles to provide any proof to this mind, but if it is true then I guess there is the door Moffet has been looking for.

Welshmushroom's post halfway down page 5 is excellent and the BBC would do well to read the whole thing out on Scrum V - since it eloquently hits the nail on the head for many supporters in Wales. Right now the regions appear somewhat like a self-pitying scrounging child in their 20s who expects handouts from their parents because all their friends currently have better jobs than they do.

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Welshmushroom's  post halfway down page 5 is excellent and the BBC would do well to read the whole thing out on Scrum V - since it eloquently hits the nail on the head for many supporters in Wales.  Right now the regions appear somewhat like a self-pitying scrounging child in their 20s who expects handouts from their parents because all their friends currently have better jobs than they do.  

I agree with some of the points. However I think that is a pretty simplistic to class them as spoilt kids. A fairer analogy would be the regions are the kids that are moaning about not being trusted, whilst not really giving much of a reason to be trusted. And the union are like those parents who moan their kids are incapable of looking after themselves, but whenever the child tries to do things on their own step in and stop them saying that they would only mess it up. It is one of those never ending cycles where both parties are clearly at fault, and equally, but the case for both sides can be clear spun to make them look in the right.

As for Mushrooms point about second rate NWQ players, and the Blues first signing being a second rate NWQ, I believe the first BLues singing was young welsh player Ieuan Jones, followed by an NWQ, and now Craig Mitchell. So that is two welsh players signed up, and one of those is a returning international.

Irrelevant but did the way Roger Lewis spoke and gestured remind anyone else of uncle Bryn?

Welshmushrooms post sums it up for me, very well put mate

MarcusHalberstram wrote: Right now the regions appear somewhat like a self-pitying scrounging child in their 20s who expects handouts from their parents because all their friends currently have better jobs than they do.  

A better analogy would be that the child wasn't allowed to go to school or University, so that's why they haven't got as good a job as his friends. He wanted to. But wasn't allowed.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

MarcusHalberstram wrote: Right now the regions appear somewhat like a self-pitying scrounging child in their 20s who expects handouts from their parents because all their friends currently have better jobs than they do.  

A better analogy would be that the child wasn't allowed to go to school or University, so that's why they haven't got as good a job as his friends. He wanted to. But wasn't allowed.

We could add that the parents gave the child some money towards getting an education but the child then went and spent it on an xbox and a fancy new haircut instead of books.

Comfort wrote:

We could add that the parents gave the child some money towards getting an education but the child then went and spent it on an xbox and a fancy new haircut instead of books.

Maybe when the child was 14. Not recently though.

I don't get the child analogy.

It reminds me more of a house-share. Two people, both use the washing machine, dryer, which no longer work, they share some bills but neither want to pay to fix the damn things, one is richer than the other, the poorer one is selling off the furniture and the richer one is saying he can't do this but won't give him any more money.

Intotouch wrote:

It reminds me more of a house-share. Two people, both use the washing machine, dryer, which no longer work, they share some bills but neither want to pay to fix the damn things, one is richer than the other, the poorer one is selling off the furniture and the richer one is saying he can't do this but won't give him any more money.

That's good. You should also add that the poorer one owns the washing machine. He actually built it himself.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

It reminds me more of a house-share. Two people, both use the washing machine, dryer, which no longer work, they share some bills but neither want to pay to fix the damn things, one is richer than the other, the poorer one is selling off the furniture and the richer one is saying he can't do this but won't give him any more money.

That's good. You should also add that the poorer one owns the washing machine. He actually built it himself.

Well the richer one could say, look I've picked up most of the bills for years, I've provided you with the parts to build a the washing machine at the expense of the people you used to house share with and yet when it's broken down you want to move next door and use their washing machine when they can fit you in -   you know that I've got a much bigger house to maintain than just this one and most of my money has gone on that - what do think means you can live here on such a low rent - so you can go but don't expect to take this machine with you - and don't come running to me for spares when you can't afford to keep up with your new housemates.

More like a divorce than a house share  

Irish Londoner wrote:

Well the richer one could say, look I've picked up most of the bills for years

what bills? I'm not aware of this.

I've provided you with the parts to build a the washing machine at the expense of the people you used to house share with

You provide 1 part - to our 7 parts. So not correct.

when it's broken down you want to move next door and use their washing machine when they can fit you in

If we move next door, we can charge people to use our washing machines and make more money than in the current setup.

you know that I've got a much bigger house to maintain than just this one and most of my money has gone on that - what do think means you can live here on such a low rent - so you can go but don't expect to take this machine with you - and don't come running to me for spares when you can't afford to keep up with your new housemates.
:

But we own the washing machine not you. If someone wants to buy it from us then fair enough.

Don't worry, we won't want spares or anything else from you.

You've lost me on the "low rent" stuff.

Anyone read this by Moffett?

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rvuilg

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

It reminds me more of a house-share. Two people, both use the washing machine, dryer, which no longer work, they share some bills but neither want to pay to fix the damn things, one is richer than the other, the poorer one is selling off the furniture and the richer one is saying he can't do this but won't give him any more money.

That's good. You should also add that the poorer one owns the washing machine. He actually built it himself.

Well the richer one could say, look I've picked up most of the bills for years, I've provided you with the parts to build a the washing machine at the expense of the people you used to house share with and yet when it's broken down you want to move next door and use their washing machine when they can fit you in -   you know that I've got a much bigger house to maintain than just this one and most of my money has gone on that - what do think means you can live here on such a low rent - so you can go but don't expect to take this machine with you - and don't come running to me for spares when you can't afford to keep up with your new housemates.

More like a divorce than a house share  

The WRU has not picked up any bills.  They give the clubs the TV money that they generate.  They also pay them £1.5m a year each for extra access to players (i.e. over and above what other nations ask of their clubs/players, and outside the normal international window).  

Or another way to put it:  if the WRU didn't exist then the clubs would still get the £9m tv and competition money (but directly rather than through the WU accounts), and they would lose the £1.5m but would have their star players for more games per season.  For the Blues, Ospreys and Scarlets who supply about 10 players each to the Wales squad at any one time, that money is little compensation for the amount of time 10 players are away.  The Dragons do well out of it admittedly, and that's from a Dragons fan.

Griff wrote:

Irish Londoner wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Intotouch wrote:

It reminds me more of a house-share. Two people, both use the washing machine, dryer, which no longer work, they share some bills but neither want to pay to fix the damn things, one is richer than the other, the poorer one is selling off the furniture and the richer one is saying he can't do this but won't give him any more money.

That's good. You should also add that the poorer one owns the washing machine. He actually built it himself.

Well the richer one could say, look I've picked up most of the bills for years, I've provided you with the parts to build a the washing machine at the expense of the people you used to house share with and yet when it's broken down you want to move next door and use their washing machine when they can fit you in -   you know that I've got a much bigger house to maintain than just this one and most of my money has gone on that - what do think means you can live here on such a low rent - so you can go but don't expect to take this machine with you - and don't come running to me for spares when you can't afford to keep up with your new housemates.

More like a divorce than a house share  

The WRU has not picked up any bills.  They give the clubs the TV money that they generate.  They also pay them £1.5m a year each for extra access to players (i.e. over and above what other nations ask of their clubs/players, and outside the normal international window).  

Or another way to put it:  if the WRU didn't exist then the clubs would still get the £9m tv and competition money (but directly rather than through the WU accounts), and they would lose the £1.5m but would have their star players for more games per season.  For the Blues, Ospreys and Scarlets who supply about 10 players each to the Wales squad at any one time, that money is little compensation for the amount of time 10 players are away.  The Dragons do well out of it admittedly, and that's from a Dragons fan.

Griff , well done, the only problem I have with this, is WHY we have to repeat these facts so often don't these people research anything

The conundrum for the Welsh is that a solution which is designed to strengthen the Welsh regions (in real terms, not in money terms.  In terms of winning European trophies) would require the players, who would be getting more money, to offer a bigger part of themselves to their Regions.  

People always talk about the Irish and how some of them seem to go easy at International level to save themselves for the passions of their Provincial duty in HEC.  Possibly a grain of truth in that but there is also a grain of truth in the exact opposite scenario going down in Wales.  Many people think Welsh players cruise through their Regional seasons to save themselves for International (their real holy grail).

So a big part of the solution to regional rugby is not simply structure and finding methods to hold on to best players.  It also concerns the demands on those players themselves (from their Regional bosses!!!) to give more of their International form and determination to their regional day job... and to employ coaches that will demand that level of engagment.  

As an outsider looking in, there always seems to be too much of the argument devoted to the mistrust between the regions and the WRU.  Some more emphasis should be put at the doorstep of regional owners themselves.  

Are they happy with the middle of a League?  Do they crave European rugby at all? Is their reason for being more about money generation than in contructing systems that will give their teams and their fans a rise on the field of play itself?  Do Regional bosses demand enough from their players?  Why always blame the WRU because players are absent from provincial duty.  Blame might also be directed at players themselves whose minds might still be absent even when they do turn up?  Are the regions trying to find genuine high grade coaches who would demand performance rather than just hope it arrives?

And the conundrum in all that is then that by the players giving more of themselves in those competitions, how would that impact on Welsh International rugby?  More effort and subsequently longer durations in tough European competitions (right up to semis and finals) - plus International duty for some on top of that - can lead to mental burn out and/or serious injuries with long lay-offs.  Would the Welsh public be willing to accept a lowering of standards at International to better serve the Regional aspirations of regional rugby?

Some might say you can have it all if you do things right.  I say doing it all is always a tough balancing act.

IronMike wrote:Anyone read this by Moffett?

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1rvuilg

Yeah and he elaborated on radio wales yesterday and supposedly he was interviewed today for ITV Wales news.
The fun never stops.
A Pontypool RFC director on radio Wales @7pm this evening which could be interesting.

https://twitter.com/PontypoolRFC/status/425647295544049664
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03kpl9l

SecretFly wrote: Some more emphasis should be put at the doorstep of regional owners themselves.  

Are they happy with the middle of a League?  Do they crave European rugby at all?  Is their reason for being more about money generation than in contructing systems that will give their teams and their fans a rise on the field of play itself?  Do Regional bosses demand enough from their players?  Why always blame the WRU because players are absent from provincial duty.  Blame might also be directed at players themselves whose minds might still be absent even when they do turn up?  Are the regions trying to find genuine high grade coaches who would demand performance rather than just hope it arrives?

Well I can't speak for regional owners, but I'll say

-I'd be happy being mid table in an anglo welsh league. Better fixtures, more opportunities to increase income etc.
-Do they crave Euroepan rugby? Yes its great. But they crave being able to control their own future moreso.
-It's a balance. In the last 3 years there has been a fight to actually exist. If we can overcome this, then new foundations will be put in place to flourish.
-Yes regional bosses demand enough from their players IMO. Although they shouldn't get invovled with team matters obviously.
- I think the players give 100% all the time. Their condition however is never great after returning from test duty. As we see from rounds 3 and 4 of the H Cup year in, year out.
- I can't confirm, but I am told that the WRU put pressure on the regions to employ a certain level of coaches that have qualified in Wales. Scott Johnson was the last head coach not to fit in to this category, and he was appointed before the current PA was signed I believe.

-

Welshmushroom wrote:Having watched the debate on scrum v......

Your Drags chief exec did well I thought.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

-I'd be happy being mid table in an anglo welsh league.

-

That's half the problem though. Just happy to be the English man's doggie. Come when you are called, and fock off and sit in the corner when he is too busy with more important matters.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

-I'd be happy being mid table in an anglo welsh league.

-

That's half the problem though. Just happy to be the English man's doggie. Come when you are called, and fock off and sit in the corner when he is too busy with more important matters.

I was just going to pinpoint that very sentence myself and for the very same reason.
To me, that's not full immersion in the idea of regional rugby.

I just can't imagine any fan of the Provinces saying they'd be happy mid table in a B&I league. It just wouldn't be in their psyche. And why would increased income for any one of the regions, mid-table in an Anglo-Welsh League, be anything of meaning to a fan? The fans don't earn anything from money earned by their club. They spend money - they don't earn it. What's the point of a fan saying they'd be comfortable mid-table if it was increased 'income'. For who? Increased income for who? And why? Increased income for what? Surely increased income is there to help reach the top?

[quote="quinsforever"]allty, prob easier for everyone if you dont re-post the whole article?[/quote]

sorry for that