What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales
 

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

-I'd be happy being mid table in an anglo welsh league.

-

That's half the problem though. Just happy to be the English man's doggie. Come when you are called, and fock off and sit in the corner when he is too busy with more important matters.

that's unfair. from a commercial perspective of course they would rather be mid-table in AW league than mid-table in celtic (minus italian) league with no sponsor. and the overall standard of rugby is far higher on average in that league.

That does seem a very unfair comment to be honest perhaps even intended to offend Chunky? I've not met any Welsh folk happy to be an English man's "doggie"

quinsforever wrote:from a commercial perspective of course they would rather be mid-table in AW league than mid-table in celtic (minus italian) league with no sponsor. and the overall standard of rugby is far higher on average in that league.

Munster, Ulster and Leinster don't agree with that comment, quins.  All topped their pools.... playing at about 60% intensity.  When Welsh teams play Irish sides, they are being tested to a high standard, even helps them prepare for International - and we all know how bright and bushy tailed they are at that.  They'll miss that in a mid table Anglo Welsh League.  But yes, more money for the owners.  Fans seem to enjoy that owners get more money these days...whilst their sides float mid-table through seasons.  It's a whole new game.

Finally watching the Scrum V debate now. My God, it's depressing.

Did the six nations meeting with "everything on the table" that was mentioned during Scrum V debate actually happen today? Does anyone know?

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:from a commercial perspective of course they would rather be mid-table in AW league than mid-table in celtic (minus italian) league with no sponsor. and the overall standard of rugby is far higher on average in that league.

Munster, Ulster and Leinster don't agree with that comment, quins.  All topped their pools.... playing at about 60% intensity.  When Welsh teams play Irish sides, they are being tested to a high standard, even helps them prepare for International - and we all know how bright and bushy tailed they are at that.  They'll miss that in a mid table Anglo Welsh League.  But yes, more money for the owners.  Fans seem to enjoy that owners get more money these days...whilst their sides float mid-table through seasons.  It's a whole new game.

http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

stub wrote:Did the six nations meeting with "everything on the table" that was mentioned during Scrum V debate actually happen today? Does anyone know?

havent heard anything.

if everything really was on the table i'd be surprised if they were done in time for tea! fingers crossed though.

Supposedly an official statement has been issued. The 6 unions still want all parties in the euro comps...so nothing really. Can't find any official announcement so might be rubbish

Look forward to seeing the statement when it is released but not hoping for too much then...

quinsforever wrote:
http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

Nice reading, quins. Three Pro12 sides still topped their pool. One in first place in the ranking, one in fourth and one in sixth (the sixth one winning all their games). Only one AP side between Leinster and Munster on the list. Ulster (Pro12 6th) above Bath, Leicester, Harlequins, Sharks, Wasps, Chiefs? And adding Glasgow, that's four Pro12 teams in the top 10, three AP sides and three Top14 sides? Is there a point to that list you want to share with me?

Look, I'm not into "my dad is bigger than your dad" wars. AP, good strong league, good strong teams at the higher end. I'd never claim anything else. About four of them each year on average. Similar to both Top14 and Pro12. On average, four competitive teams at HEC level in any given year from all Leagues. Always admit the truth and the world will turn smoother for you.

But just be nice.... don't disparage a league that has proven its pedigree in Europe every bit as much as AP. The standard of rugby in AP is NOT far higher...that's your opinion that it is, based on relative competitiveness. Relative competitiveness is not related to standard of rugby - as all teams find out when the Leagues collide in Europe.

There is a statement on the WRU website

HammerofThunor wrote:Supposedly an official statement has been issued. The 6 unions still want all parties in the euro comps...so nothing really. Can't find any official announcement so might be rubbish

That's the Italian, the Irish, the French, the Welsh, the Scottish and the English UNIONS want all parties in the Euro competition?  You're right.  Nothing about that we didn't know already.  The considered 'outsider' in that pack, the RFU, even they are openly down on record as saying they'd still like to see a way of having English clubs involved.  No shock turns there.

Now... as a statement, the only intriguing thing is the "Still want ALL parties in the Euro competitions.  You could read that as the Unions saying they want the PRL to accept the new designed ERC plan..or that they're back to square one and say ALL parties should be there by right - as six nations, with auto places for each again.

But as regards it being a meaningful statement?  Nope - we know what the Unions want.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

Nice reading, quins.  Three Pro12 sides still topped their pool.  One in first place in the ranking, one in fourth and one in sixth (the sixth one winning all their games).  Only one AP side between Leinster and Munster on the list.  Ulster (Pro12 6th) above Bath, Leicester, Harlequins, Sharks, Wasps, Chiefs?  And adding Glasgow, that's four Pro12 teams in the top 10, three AP sides and three Top14 sides?  Is there a point to that list you want to share with me?

Look, I'm not into "my dad is bigger than your dad" wars.  AP, good strong league, good strong teams at the higher end.  I'd never claim anything else.  About four of them each year on average.  Similar to both Top14 and Pro12.  On average, four competitive teams at HEC level in any given year from all Leagues.  Always admit the truth and the world will turn smoother for you.  

But just be nice.... don't disparage a league that has proven its pedigree in Europe every bit as much as AP.  The standard of rugby in AP is NOT far higher...that's your opinion that it is, based on relative competitiveness.  Relative competitiveness is not related to standard of rugby - as all teams find out when the Leagues collide in Europe.

the "league", rabo, has established it is the weak link. the irish provinces have established they have something magical going on about their setup/support/fans/national team linkage.

how many qualifying spots for HC should the rabo get on the basis of irish provincial excellence? 3? 6? 12? the provinces are phenomenal. the rabo decidedly less so.

"The Welsh Rugby Union was represented at a meeting today of the Six Nations Council and fully endorses the following joint statement issued at its conclusion.

The Six Nations Council had a constructive meeting today and remains committed to finding a Six Nations solution for European Rugby in the best interests of the game.

The Council also reaffirmed its commitment to abide by IRB regulations."

holy moly, that is the biggest non-statement statement i have ever read in my entire life.

if that is all they could agree on i am now deeply pessimistic.

Erm - glad I didn't get my hopes up...

quinsforever wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:
http://www.eurorugby.com/index.php

Nice reading, quins.  Three Pro12 sides still topped their pool.  One in first place in the ranking, one in fourth and one in sixth (the sixth one winning all their games).  Only one AP side between Leinster and Munster on the list.  Ulster (Pro12 6th) above Bath, Leicester, Harlequins, Sharks, Wasps, Chiefs?  And adding Glasgow, that's four Pro12 teams in the top 10, three AP sides and three Top14 sides?  Is there a point to that list you want to share with me?

Look, I'm not into "my dad is bigger than your dad" wars.  AP, good strong league, good strong teams at the higher end.  I'd never claim anything else.  About four of them each year on average.  Similar to both Top14 and Pro12.  On average, four competitive teams at HEC level in any given year from all Leagues.  Always admit the truth and the world will turn smoother for you.  

But just be nice.... don't disparage a league that has proven its pedigree in Europe every bit as much as AP.  The standard of rugby in AP is NOT far higher...that's your opinion that it is, based on relative competitiveness.  Relative competitiveness is not related to standard of rugby - as all teams find out when the Leagues collide in Europe.

the "league", rabo, has established it is the weak link. the irish provinces have established they have something magical going on about their setup/support/fans/national team linkage.

how many qualifying spots for HC should the rabo get on the basis of irish provincial excellence? 3? 6? 12? the provinces are phenomenal. the rabo decidedly less so.

But that's the League we're in.  We're in a League, unlike AP and unlike Top14.  Different because logically it can't ever be the same.  Indeed, it's more like a longer version of HEC!  

I always try to argue the League's case rather than Irish Province's case because we are in a League.  That's our League.  But I get round to the Irish dimension when outsiders say the Pro12 League, which can never be like AP/Top14, should indeed be forced to be like Top14 and AP.  
The result being those Irish sides (who are doing something right - for now, however long it lasts - and I'm never arrogant enough to suggest it will) would be penalised for playing in a League devised entirely differently to the other two and have their auto places in a European contest threatened entirely, as the other two nations (England and France) keep their auto six apiece.
That's when it gets personal and when I fight hardest.  Otherwise, we're in a League - that's it.  Pro12 have as many wins in HEC history as AP has and as many as Top14 have.  They are three leagues.  Like I say, on average about four from each league have the ability to push on in HEC each year.  That they are Irish sides (in Pro12) is only a fleeting present.  Nobody can say where the futures is heading.  Welsh regional dominance for a period?  Who knows.

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

-I'd be happy being mid table in an anglo welsh league.

-

That's half the problem though. Just happy to be the English man's doggie. Come when you are called, and fock off and sit in the corner when he is too busy with more important matters.

That's rubbish though isn't it. You reckon Derby County would rather be in the play offs of the Championship every season, or be 15th in the Premiership and £70m richer?

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:from a commercial perspective of course they would rather be mid-table in AW league than mid-table in celtic (minus italian) league with no sponsor. and the overall standard of rugby is far higher on average in that league.

Munster, Ulster and Leinster don't agree with that comment, quins.  All topped their pools.... playing at about 60% intensity.  When Welsh teams play Irish sides, they are being tested to a high standard, even helps them prepare for International - and we all know how bright and bushy tailed they are at that.  They'll miss that in a mid table Anglo Welsh League.  But yes, more money for the owners.  Fans seem to enjoy that owners get more money these days...whilst their sides float mid-table through seasons.  It's a whole new game.

     Lolz. You think the owners are in this to make money?

That's hilarious.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:from a commercial perspective of course they would rather be mid-table in AW league than mid-table in celtic (minus italian) league with no sponsor. and the overall standard of rugby is far higher on average in that league.

Munster, Ulster and Leinster don't agree with that comment, quins.  All topped their pools.... playing at about 60% intensity.  When Welsh teams play Irish sides, they are being tested to a high standard, even helps them prepare for International - and we all know how bright and bushy tailed they are at that.  They'll miss that in a mid table Anglo Welsh League.  But yes, more money for the owners.  Fans seem to enjoy that owners get more money these days...whilst their sides float mid-table through seasons.  It's a whole new game.

     Lolz. You think the owners are in this to make money?

That's hilarious.

Yes...they are.  

You think professional rugby is a charity???  That they are not making 'money' now - some of them - isn't the point; that all these talks and talks about the future of rugby in Europe is all about money and all about percieved money-train profit and all about owners wisely investing in areas of rugby that are not necessarily their own team - try SKY, BT or any of the big name sponsors who float shares on the stockmarket.... you seriously think owners don't want to make a buck on their 'hobbies'?  

You just have a very elementary understanding of how that money is made.  You make a product valuable (European rugby - big money deal!!!) then you invest in the sundry operations in and around that product (sponsors, broadcasters etc), not just the product (rugby team) itself.  You invest to make money....especially in the professional world.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

-I'd be happy being mid table in an anglo welsh league.

-

That's half the problem though. Just happy to be the English man's doggie. Come when you are called, and fock off and sit in the corner when he is too busy with more important matters.

That's rubbish though isn't it. You reckon Derby County would rather be in the play offs of the Championship every season, or be 15th in the Premiership and £70m richer?

I don't know Chunky...you tell us.  Don't you have to be about 70 million richer to get into AP in the first place?  That is, the restrictions placed on sides to have infrastructures up to AP standards before being admitted, even though they should rightly be in it on performance in the Championship??

Did I hear stuff about that snag in the relegation/promotion issues around AP a while back?  So you gotta have enough money behind you to get into the AP even though trying to get into the AP is the act of trying to get your hands on some money.  Catch 22.

But it's still all money on your mind.  Money, money, money.  70 million is the lure rather than trying to get to the top of the league.  Money, money, money.

SecretFly wrote:

I don't know Chunky...you tell us.  Don't you have to be about 70 million richer to get into AP in the first place?  That is, the restrictions placed on sides to have infrastructures up to AP standards before being admitted, even though they should rightly be in it on performance in the Championship??

Evidently not. Anyone with a passing interest in soccer can surely see this.

Did I hear stuff about that snag in the relegation/promotion issues around AP a while back?  So you gotta have enough money behind you to get into the AP even though trying to get into the AP is the act of trying to get your hands on some money.  Catch 22.

I don't think London Welsh are particularly cash rich.

But it's still all money on your mind.  Money, money, money.  70 million is the lure rather than trying to get to the top of the league.  Money, money, money.

Professional sport tends to lean that way. Hence the name.

Pontypool club boss weighing in on the club debate in wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25835922

he says club rugby is being allowed to die, and that wru needs to wake up and smell the coffee. interesting point of view as ponty would not be natural supporters of the 4 regions i imagine?

and jamie roberts sharing his views too. although it is a bit easier for him to be positive with his big paycheck, and doctors qualification for after he finishes rugby. i would imagine he is the welsh rugby player facing the least financial uncertainty. anyway, interesting comments from a smart lad.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25833143

quinsforever wrote:Pontypool club boss weighing in on the club debate in wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25835922

he says club rugby is being allowed to die, and that wru needs to wake up and smell the coffee. interesting point of view as ponty would not be natural supporters of the 4 regions i imagine?

I think the Pontypool guy is barking up the wrong tree a little. His twitter comments make little sense to me, unless he looked at every Pontypool RFC follower (as an example) and ascertained where they come from and that they don't also follow the Dragons. Because for a start, some people will just follow things for any reason (like I follow Ebbw Vale as my mate plays for them).

Also, in my opinion, the Dragons shouldn't really be farming Pontypool for talent. For me the cream of the talent from there would be plucked into the Premiership and then if they're good enough again, would progress to regional rugby.

quinsforever wrote:Pontypool club boss weighing in on the club debate in wales

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25835922

he says club rugby is being allowed to die, and that wru needs to wake up and smell the coffee. interesting point of view as ponty would not be natural supporters of the 4 regions i imagine?

Liked this bit particularly in relation to what Ospreys' boss Andrew Hore has been banging on about in the past;

"Jeffreys feels the state of the club game should also be on the agenda as a matter of urgency.
"I feel like we've been largely ignored by the regions and I think they are starting to hold their hands up to that because they've had no other choice in the spectrum of this debate," said Jeffreys.
"In fairness to the Blues in particular and the Dragons, in relation to Pontypool, we've had some very good discussions with them lately and I'm confident that if we can get through this then it will be better for the whole game in the long run."


Ospreys boss Andrew Hore challenges WRU over regions - april 2010
"We can assist clubs - our local clubs - in growth. I think there needs to be a greater relationship between ourselves and the Premiership clubs and at the moment they treat us in isolation and I don't think that's healthy."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/8631086.stm

Ospreys slate Welsh Rugby Union over club links - march 2013
"He claims to have been "told repeatedly" by the WRU that they should not be involved with "in the community game".
"To me, it's a sad state of affairs because fundamentally we should all be trying to promote the game," said Hore."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/21957344

The whole of Welsh rugby needs a damn good shake up from top to bottom in my view, said Dave.

i defer to your knowledge of the welsh clubs setup.

couple of qns to aid my learning...

do ponty supply players to the dragons then as a regular thing?

do the welsh premiership clubs have informal "feeder" arrangements with the 4 regions?

i didnt quite understand his twitter comments either. but it does make sense to me that wales has a general challenge that as the older generation is less able to attend club matches, the younger generations may not make up the numbers. dont know if its true, it just sounds very plausible. and is exactly what the WRU should be putting long term plans to focus on.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Professional sport tends to lean that way. Hence the name.

Thus my point be proved.  Sport is business not sport.  A team only wants money.  Being mid-ranked is often money and ambition enough in the professional world.  Is that the angle you're coming from?

So much for the idea that the AP is 'competitive'.  Maybe it's competitive in bands?  A top four or five that are competitive with each other... a mid table four or five that are happy with their mid-table battles each year, and the bottom three or four that can't even stop to worry about the middle or the top as they're too busy contemplating the struggles to avoid relegation?

Okay, I get you.

SecretFly wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Professional sport tends to lean that way. Hence the name.

Thus my point be proved.  Sport is business not sport.  A team only wants money.  Being mid-ranked is often money and ambition enough in the professional world.  Is that the angle you're coming from?

Not me personally no. I also like to see a good product with good players, able to get to as many away fixtures as possible, all at a regular kick off time and have a good day out.

So much for the idea that the AP is 'competitive'.  Maybe it's competitive in bands?  A top four or five that are competitive with each other... a mid table four or five that are happy with their mid-table battles each year, and the bottom three or four that can't even stop to worry about the middle or the top as they're too busy contemplating the struggles to avoid relegation?

Okay, I get you.

Good standard of players. The entire squad.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Welshmushroom's  post halfway down page 5 is excellent and the BBC would do well to read the whole thing out on Scrum V - since it eloquently hits the nail on the head for many supporters in Wales.  Right now the regions appear somewhat like a self-pitying scrounging child in their 20s who expects handouts from their parents because all their friends currently have better jobs than they do.  

I agree with some of the points.  However I think that is a pretty simplistic to class them as spoilt kids.  A fairer analogy would be the regions are the kids that are moaning about not being trusted, whilst not really giving much of a reason to be trusted.  And the union are like those parents who moan their kids are incapable of looking after themselves, but whenever the child tries to do things on their own step in and stop them saying that they would only mess it up.  It is one of those never ending cycles where both parties are clearly at fault, and equally, but the case for both sides can be clear spun to make them look in the right.

As for Mushrooms point about second rate NWQ players, and the Blues first signing being a second rate NWQ, I believe the first BLues singing was young welsh player Ieuan Jones, followed by an NWQ, and now Craig Mitchell.  So that is two welsh players signed up, and one of those is a returning international.

I agree with the Master and Serf point regarding to relationships between regional owners and the WRU. I do think both sides will need to remain flexible.

Regarding the NWQ point your making. Yes the Blues have signed 2 welsh players. It remains to see how often those guys are played though. My point primarily relates to the 1 NWQ player. They are looking at 5 or 6 other additions from the NPC in New Zealand according to reliable sources. The issue here is are these transfers of value in terms of bringing success or improving standards. As I pointed out - this wasn't an argument I would have made with high profile superstars but the second rate nature of these signings. If every squad is made up of 40 players, surely it shouldn't be to much to ask for these to be welsh players. Half the time the NWQ even play substantially more than the youngsters which just hampers the development. When the Blues brought in Paterson he only stayed the length of time it took him to qualify as a citizen which allowed him to move anywhere, which then he did. The regions will let you believe that we need these NWQ to be successful but unless they are actually importing their best - their track records are stating the opposite as they haven't brought in success with this model. I also believe there is ample talent in Wales in a lot of areas. Why for example is there a shortage on wingers? There are plenty of cracking young wingers desperate for a step up playing club rugby. Surely they are more deserving of the development? Phillips at the Scarlets for example has come on leaps and bounds by playing in the Pro12 season and I was first to admit I didn't think originally he was good enough. These youngsters just need time to get the experience to prove themselves. I want to see strong age grade teams for wales and the only way this will happen is if the players get a taste of pro rugby early enough. At regional level as a whole we are still to slow at playing them in league rugby. We do see exceptions with the likes of Patchell etc but its nowhere near as often as it should be in order to develop stronger squads in the long term.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Having watched the debate on scrum v......

Your Drags chief exec did well I thought.

In fairness to him he did come across very well. I do think that both sides will need to draw a line in the sand and accept there are some items that can be negotiated on and others that cant. For example he did harp on about this British and Irish cup/league and this extra 1 million revenue. As a fan and not having a vested interest in either the WRU or the regions, I just don't see this as a viable route. The RFU wont abandon 100 years of tradition and just redraw the rule book to allow the welsh in regardless of the WRU agreeing or not. So the bottom line is even if the WRU allowed them - they still cant do it. The final decision on this will lie with the RFU at the end of the day. This makes this a pointless argument and shouldn't not affect any of the other genuine funding points. I would rather the regions accept that the Pro12 is the only real deal that can be made and instead look to negotiate better deals within that structure such as negotiating their own TV revenues and working with the other Pro 12 teams to create and even more enticing product. Given Sky have come on board they have got options to really grow the league commercially at this stage if they all play smart. So I think a smarter play would be to create better structures between the WRU and regions to allow better access to negotiations of TV revenue. It would be better to pitch battles you have a chance of winning than going on a war path over things that are lost causes.

quinsforever wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:The only way this option even goes to court, if the Regions and PRL jointly legally challenge this.  I just don't see the PRL challenging the PRL on this point which almost certainly will leave the Welsh out in the cold.

The other interesting point is that the Champions cup and league are only on a 3 year term.  Surely a agreement with the WRU lasting for 5-10 years is more sustainable than any 3 year model.  They have no idea what will happen with their income after 3 years.  Makes more sense to take less on offer but secure your income for the long haul.  One thing is clear though, financially even the English cannot now compete with the money available in France.  The player drain will affect every nation outside of France.  

england have lots of great players coming through. those that want to wear white will stay. those, like flood, wilko etc who can make lots of money for themselves in france will do so. win-win as far as i am concerned. legends like wilko get really well paid. young guns develop here in the very competitive AP. what the f does that have to do with national team performance anyway?

insofar as it relates to club matches. i love watching clermont and toulon's star studded sides. absolutely love it.

England do have a lot of potential coming through.  But is it developing in a meaningful competition.  We are already seeing the Aviva being a 2 horse race this year.  I really question what some of the sides are bringing to the table in terms of quality.  It's primarily why England are unearthing the talent in the first place.  They are getting a lot of game time, unlike other nations current academy systems where the starting places are earned on merit.  Burns for example illustrates this point perfectly.  Burns has talent.  I wouldn't rate him higher than 6 or 7 of the non capped 10's we have flying around in Wales.  Morgan by contrast has far more class by contrast.  Burns however will gain more experience has due to the amount of English clubs around with a lack of natural English 10's around.  Thus he gains more exposure and develops faster at club level.  However at some point (as we are seeing already) a player will only develop further based on the quality of opposition and the quality of players around him.  The most talent player in the world would not develop if the team around him and opposition against him did not challenge him to improve.  Its why in my opinion so many new England caps fail at international level to make any real mark.  Farrell is for example the only consistent 10 in England.  But he wouldn't even feature in a top 5 fly halves in world rugby on current form.

  do you follow english club rugby? or just flyhalves? england are irb ranked #4 and at this stage i#m fairly happy with that. decent pack, few absentee key backs, but lots of improvement to come hopefully from a young pack and backs.

how is this emblematic of a weak AP? we have fierce competition for many positions. i know it's the advantage of a big rugby playing population, but its also the advantage of a strong club/scademy/saxons/eps development regime.

runaway 2? we have a playoff system that determines league winners, just like the top14. and many's the time the top 2 havent won. so we still have an exciting end of season to come, irrespective of how far away sarries and saints get by april.

and lets not start on the rabo shall we.

There are 2 clear teams ahead of everyone in the Aviva at the moment. Looking at the Aviva the last 10 years - usually the winner has come from the top 2 teams but feel free to correct me on this point.

I also wouldn't put to much stock in the International ranking. Yes England are 4th currently. Are they better than Wales on recent 6 nations results. No. I think everyone recognises that the ranking system does not correctly represent a teams true ability. Basically the ranking system outside of the top 3 is a bit of a lottery. I think we all recognise the 6 Nations, World Cup & 4 Nations are not properly weighted. A summer tour (friendly) shouldn't count anywhere near major tournament results. I believe this ranking system primarily protects the SH sides from dropping to low in the ranking at any given time despite results.

Anyway, despite the amount of hype that usually surrounds talent - im usually of the mind set until they have proven themselves internationally you don't really know how good they are. England still have big question marks in areas in their current team. For me Centres (when Manu isn't fit) and Fly half are just 2 key areas. I'd also consider openside a major problem with virtually no real classic opensides available to England. They have been playing blindside flankers there as a patch up job but generally this does not work.

I'm not saying this in order to get into a argument of our league is better than yours sentiment. My simple point is don't believe the hype that surrounds the standard of some of these young players.

furry muff. i'm still pretty encouraged about the future of english rugby. u18 and u20 teams show to me that the academy and development systems are working well.

players only tend to go to france when they see the writing on the wall as far as playing for england is concerned. armitages (am still gutted that we cant pick steffon), wilko, dlood, haskell, etc. the young guns stay here.

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:from a commercial perspective of course they would rather be mid-table in AW league than mid-table in celtic (minus italian) league with no sponsor. and the overall standard of rugby is far higher on average in that league.

Munster, Ulster and Leinster don't agree with that comment, quins.  All topped their pools.... playing at about 60% intensity.  When Welsh teams play Irish sides, they are being tested to a high standard, even helps them prepare for International - and we all know how bright and bushy tailed they are at that.  They'll miss that in a mid table Anglo Welsh League.  But yes, more money for the owners.  Fans seem to enjoy that owners get more money these days...whilst their sides float mid-table through seasons.  It's a whole new game.

To be honest there is a lot of truth in this comment. I personally believe having been involved against Irish teams for the last decade has improved the standard of our welsh sides. They are always playing uncompromising rugby. Personally for me I want to continue that because I believe from a playing perspective they challenge us in many more areas of the game. That's not being disrespectful to the English either but in fairness Irish sides are the most consistent teams when you look at their level at club rugby.

I also think having to travel those distances prepares out players better for international rugby as trips to Scotland and Italy usually require more preparation in travel time etc.

But I don't think the decision will be made from a playing perspective (not that I think there is a real danger of us leaving Pro12 rugby anyway).

stub wrote:Did the six nations meeting with "everything on the table" that was mentioned during Scrum V debate actually happen today? Does anyone know?

yes it did. times issued a late evening report stating they had been locked away until the late hours of that day. From that meeting it looks like the French Union has soften their stance and a tournament could now come under the 6 nations umbrella body. However they are still far from agreement as primarily the main block now is the TV deals between Sky and BT but it is hoped they can negotiate a joint televised deal for the rights.

Taken roughly from the Times article.

quinsforever wrote:furry muff. i'm still pretty encouraged about the future of english rugby. u18 and u20 teams show to me that the academy and development systems are working well.

players only tend to go to france when they see the writing on the wall as far as playing for england is concerned. armitages (am still gutted that we cant pick steffon), wilko, dlood, haskell, etc. the young guns stay here.

To be honest the RFU should be applauded for the stay at home policy. Guys like Haskell, Palmer etc would have continued to play in France had they not brought this rule in. As you point out the players leaving at the moment are people who know they are not likely to get back into international contention.

I wouldn't argue about the success about your age grade sides and a lot of other unions could learn something from this. That said the development from your U20 to full international side is very slow. If they can address this it will help. Lancaster is a very good coach so given time - he should be able to address this. That said there is room for improvement as in my opinion players are introduced to international rugby to late in their cycles. SH by contrast usually have 50 caps by the time they are 25, if they can keep their shirt long enough.

quinsforever wrote:i defer to your knowledge of the welsh clubs setup.

couple of qns to aid my learning...

1. do ponty supply players to the dragons then as a regular thing?

2. do the welsh premiership clubs have informal "feeder" arrangements with the 4 regions?

i didnt quite understand his twitter comments either. but it does make sense to me that wales has a general challenge that as the older generation is less able to attend club matches, the younger generations may not make up the numbers. dont know if its true, it just sounds very plausible. and is exactly what the WRU should be putting long term plans to focus on.

1. Pontypool used to supply players, and had players out on loan in return. However, they got relegated so are not a premiership club now. I guess the region wouldn't be so keen to place players an extra division below. So they tend to do it between the prem clubs only. Yes, players can be picked up by the region, any region, from Pontypool in the same way as they can be picked up from a division 7 club - if they're spotted, recommended, stand out, etc, etc. Regional scouts will look out for youngsters and then if they spot a good 'un, may sign them up for the regional academy at either U16, U18 or the senior academy (although I think this is mainly those retained after progressing from the U18 academy).

2. I wouldn't say the arrangement is informal. All regional academy players are attached to a club side, and when not playing for the region (as they may be 3rd or 4th choice) they will play in the welsh prem. If you look at any Welsh prem matchday side you'll see regional players, or players with dual regional contracts of some sort. Also, if you look online at the welsh prem squads you'll see some regional players in there. And it's not all for Newport RFC as used to be the case. They mainly turn out for Cross Keys or Bedwas it would seem. Cross Keys and Bedwas squads online contain a number of Dragons players. So they're not just loaned out, but they're included as squad members on their websites - dual ownership almost. Just looking at the Bedwas squad and I can see James Benjamin, Aaron Coundley, Elliot Dee, Luc Jones and Matthew Pewtner - they've all played for the Dragons this season. Senior regional players also turn out for the welsh prem clubs too, e.g. when returning from injury.

Pontypool don't even have a bloody youth team. So they supply no youngsters to the regional academy and thus contribute little to the professional tier.

Yet they seem to want it AAAAALLLL back.

Do they give smaller clubs in their region the same time and effort that they want from the Dragons? Because that's how it should work.

Griff wrote:

quinsforever wrote:i defer to your knowledge of the welsh clubs setup.

couple of qns to aid my learning...

1. do ponty supply players to the dragons then as a regular thing?

2. do the welsh premiership clubs have informal "feeder" arrangements with the 4 regions?

i didnt quite understand his twitter comments either. but it does make sense to me that wales has a general challenge that as the older generation is less able to attend club matches, the younger generations may not make up the numbers. dont know if its true, it just sounds very plausible. and is exactly what the WRU should be putting long term plans to focus on.

1. Pontypool used to supply players, and had players out on loan in return.  However, they got relegated so are not a premiership club now.  I guess the region wouldn't be so keen to place players an extra division below.  So they tend to do it between the prem clubs only.  Yes, players can be picked up by the region, any region, from Pontypool in the same way as they can be picked up from a division 7 club - if they're spotted, recommended, stand out, etc, etc.  Regional scouts will look out for youngsters and then if they spot a good 'un, may sign them up for the regional academy at either U16, U18 or the senior academy (although I think this is mainly those retained after progressing from the U18 academy).

2.  I wouldn't say the arrangement is informal.  All regional academy players are attached to a club side, and when not playing for the region (as they may be 3rd or 4th choice) they will play in the welsh prem.  If you look at any Welsh prem matchday side you'll see regional players, or players with dual regional contracts of some sort.  Also, if you look online at the welsh prem squads you'll see some regional players in there.  And it's not all for Newport RFC as used to be the case.  They mainly turn out for Cross Keys or Bedwas it would seem.  Cross Keys and Bedwas squads online contain a number of Dragons players.  So they're not just loaned out, but they're included as squad members on their websites - dual ownership almost.  Just looking at the Bedwas squad and I can see James Benjamin, Aaron Coundley, Elliot Dee, Luc Jones and Matthew Pewtner - they've all played for the Dragons this season.   Senior regional players also turn out for the welsh prem clubs too, e.g. when returning from injury.

thanks for this. much appreciated.

quinsforever, the Welsh system seems to be similar to the English dual registration (or the English is like the Welsh as I think they were doing it first). Main difference is there are certain clubs the Regions are associated officially whereas I believe the links between Premiership and Championship clubs is unofficial. So Leicester have had dual registered players at Nottingham and Bedford. I think Saracens have had guys at Bedford as well. Exeter players go to Pirates (I think).

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Having watched the debate on scrum v......

Your Drags chief exec did well I thought.

In fairness to him he did come across very well.  I do think that both sides will need to draw a line in the sand and accept there are some items that can be negotiated on and others that cant.  For example he did harp on about this British and Irish cup/league and this extra 1 million revenue.  As a fan and not having a vested interest in either the WRU or the regions, I just don't see this as a viable route.  The RFU wont abandon 100 years of tradition and just redraw the rule book to allow the welsh in regardless of the WRU agreeing or not.  So the bottom line is even if the WRU allowed them - they still cant do it.  The final decision on this will lie with the RFU at the end of the day.  This makes this a pointless argument and shouldn't not affect any of the other genuine funding points.  I would rather the regions accept that the Pro12 is the only real deal that can be made and instead look to negotiate better deals within that structure such as negotiating their own TV revenues and working with the other Pro 12 teams to create and even more enticing product.  Given Sky have come on board they have got options to really grow the league commercially at this stage if they all play smart.  So I think a smarter play would be to create better structures between the WRU and regions to allow better access to negotiations of TV revenue.  It would be better to pitch battles you have a chance of winning than going on a war path over things that are lost causes.  

This really is a mixed up post, the £1M that has been negotiated is for the RCC, NOT for the AW, so doesn't need RFU approval, it needs everyones say so, or a majority of the participating organisations

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Having watched the debate on scrum v......

Your Drags chief exec did well I thought.

In fairness to him he did come across very well.  I do think that both sides will need to draw a line in the sand and accept there are some items that can be negotiated on and others that cant.  For example he did harp on about this British and Irish cup/league and this extra 1 million revenue.  As a fan and not having a vested interest in either the WRU or the regions, I just don't see this as a viable route.  The RFU wont abandon 100 years of tradition and just redraw the rule book to allow the welsh in regardless of the WRU agreeing or not.  So the bottom line is even if the WRU allowed them - they still cant do it.  The final decision on this will lie with the RFU at the end of the day.  This makes this a pointless argument and shouldn't not affect any of the other genuine funding points.  I would rather the regions accept that the Pro12 is the only real deal that can be made and instead look to negotiate better deals within that structure such as negotiating their own TV revenues and working with the other Pro 12 teams to create and even more enticing product.  Given Sky have come on board they have got options to really grow the league commercially at this stage if they all play smart.  So I think a smarter play would be to create better structures between the WRU and regions to allow better access to negotiations of TV revenue.  It would be better to pitch battles you have a chance of winning than going on a war path over things that are lost causes.  

Yet according to what your Drags chief exec was saying, as it currently stands the Pro12 is not the "real deal" considering no sponsor has been lined up to replace the robbing bank and the Italians, together with their billions of Lira, may scarper. You can't expect the regions to sign up to that surely?

wayne wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Welshmushroom wrote:Having watched the debate on scrum v......

Your Drags chief exec did well I thought.

In fairness to him he did come across very well.  I do think that both sides will need to draw a line in the sand and accept there are some items that can be negotiated on and others that cant.  For example he did harp on about this British and Irish cup/league and this extra 1 million revenue.  As a fan and not having a vested interest in either the WRU or the regions, I just don't see this as a viable route.  The RFU wont abandon 100 years of tradition and just redraw the rule book to allow the welsh in regardless of the WRU agreeing or not.  So the bottom line is even if the WRU allowed them - they still cant do it.  The final decision on this will lie with the RFU at the end of the day.  This makes this a pointless argument and shouldn't not affect any of the other genuine funding points.  I would rather the regions accept that the Pro12 is the only real deal that can be made and instead look to negotiate better deals within that structure such as negotiating their own TV revenues and working with the other Pro 12 teams to create and even more enticing product.  Given Sky have come on board they have got options to really grow the league commercially at this stage if they all play smart.  So I think a smarter play would be to create better structures between the WRU and regions to allow better access to negotiations of TV revenue.  It would be better to pitch battles you have a chance of winning than going on a war path over things that are lost causes.  

This really is a mixed up post, the £1M that has been negotiated is for the RCC, NOT for the AW, so doesn't need RFU approval, it needs everyones say so, or a majority of the participating organisations  

That it be.

quinsforever wrote:i defer to your knowledge of the welsh clubs setup.

couple of qns to aid my learning...

do ponty supply players to the dragons then as a regular thing?

do the welsh premiership clubs have informal "feeder" arrangements with the 4 regions?

i didnt quite understand his twitter comments either. but it does make sense to me that wales has a general challenge that as the older generation is less able to attend club matches, the younger generations may not make up the numbers. dont know if its true, it just sounds very plausible. and is exactly what the WRU should be putting long term plans to focus on.

The other Ponty, receive an allocation of Cardiff Blues academy players and it seems it can vary from time to time throughout the season. No other clubs in the region benefit in this way to my knowledge.
"feeder" is a rude word which implies that Cardiff Blues can take players at will. There must be or may be some kind of an "agreement" between the two I guess, but i've no idea what it is exactly. Anyway Ponty have the BIC quarters to occupy their minds and good luck to them.

Griff wrote:

quinsforever wrote:i defer to your knowledge of the welsh clubs setup.

couple of qns to aid my learning...

1. do ponty supply players to the dragons then as a regular thing?

2. do the welsh premiership clubs have informal "feeder" arrangements with the 4 regions?

i didnt quite understand his twitter comments either. but it does make sense to me that wales has a general challenge that as the older generation is less able to attend club matches, the younger generations may not make up the numbers. dont know if its true, it just sounds very plausible. and is exactly what the WRU should be putting long term plans to focus on.

1. Pontypool used to supply players,

On wooden pallets via a fork lift truck?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Yet according to what your Drags chief exec was saying, as it currently stands the Pro12 is not the "real deal" considering no sponsor has been lined up to replace the robbing bank and the Italians, together with their billions of Lira, may scarper. You can't expect the regions to sign up to that surely?

Yep currently there is no sponsor for the Pro12 which is a travesty.  That definitely needs to be resolved and the management for the Pro12 needs to be looked at.

The Italians are making a fair point.  No one else contributes so why should they be paying 3 million to take part.  I actually think if they keep this money and invest more cash on their teams they will improve the standard of the league anyway.  Do I think they will go back to playing in a league of their own?  Possibly but I don't buy into the myth that there have been no benefits for the Italians.  You only have to look at their performance and its clear the gap is closing - granted it will take a lot more time before we really see major improvements.  The other teams do have a lot more experience than them of pro rugby if the 3 million euros can be waved they probably will continue with the league.  I think the Italian Federation appreciates they need to participate to provide real playing improvements.

I know they are saying the 1 million is for them participating in the RCC but we already know that Scotland and Ireland wont be joining and the Italians haven't even been invited.  So the RCC would be a Anglo Welsh Cup (as the French wont be joining either).  But this is more a case or RRW saying "we want the million each offered by participating in the RCC or we will walk".  The point I was making is that they don't actually have any other options to create a league fixture list.  So if they cant agree on the RCC or the agreement for that matter the cant participate in the Pro12 will no real option of joining any league at all.  What use is the extra million a year then when you only have 6-8 games to play per season.  

I also don't see the Home Unions giving up on the European Cup or catering to anymore demands from the PRL other than the concessions they have already made regarding the funding splits and the qualification process.  In fairness here I actually think the PRL have got everything they should be asking for.  I don't agree they should control the tournament themselves. I already think the BT deal will come back to bite English Rugby at some stage because Sky being ditched that way and them re-investing in Pro12 rugby will drive down the value of the TV deals in the long term.  Its also unclear how long BT will actually be committed to that aspect of sports broadcasting.

I believe the Italians will stay in the PRO12 but their fee needs to be renegotiated / eliminated. It was originally to cover the extra expense for the teams going to Italy 'cos otherwise it would have been unsustainable. However given the improvement in the Pro 12 product a new TV deal(s) should be possible to raise the funding meaning this is not needed. Waht the Pro 12 needs is a better TV deal and given the entry of BT and the bidding wars this means then it should be possible

TJ wrote:I believe the Italians will stay in the PRO12 but their fee needs to be renegotiated / eliminated.  It was originally to cover the extra expense for the teams going to Italy 'cos otherwise it would have been unsustainable.  However given the improvement in the Pro 12 product a new TV deal(s) should be possible to raise the funding meaning this is not needed.  Waht the Pro 12 needs is a better TV deal and given the entry of BT and the bidding wars this means then it should be possible

Yes. How about the Irish generate £3.2m like the Welsh do, to put in the central pot. Instead of the pathetic £910,000 that they generate currently.

quinsforever wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

-I'd be happy being mid table in an anglo welsh league.

-

That's half the problem though. Just happy to be the English man's doggie. Come when you are called, and fock off and sit in the corner when he is too busy with more important matters.

that's unfair. from a commercial perspective of course they would rather be mid-table in AW league than mid-table in celtic (minus italian) league with no sponsor. and the overall standard of rugby is far higher on average in that league.

Overt drivel

If the standard is higher in the AP then the welsh teams would struggle to avoid relegation. Of course it isn't - see this years HC and the pro 12 table for evidence. I would suggest the Pro12 is actually more even on the whole - and the best teams are better.

TJ wrote:If the standard is higher in the AP then the welsh teams would struggle to avoid relegation.  Of course it isn't - see this years HC and the pro 12 table for evidence.  I would suggest the Pro12 is actually more even on the whole - and the best teams are better.

Absolutely deluded.