What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

by ScarletSpiderman Mon Jan 06, 2014 2:24 pm

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case? It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

by TJ Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:06 pm

Chunky - I normally ignore your erudite and well thought out posts. I will go back to doing so after this. However I will demolish this one

If the standard is higher in the AP then the welsh teams will struggle given their performance in the Pro 12. Ospreys are the only welsh team to have won more than they have lost. The welsh teams have been poor in the HC which gives a comparison between the top of the AP and the welsh

Clearly the top of the Pro12 is better than the top of the AP given their performances in the HC.

The Pro 12 is a more even league given the top teams are beaten more and the bottom teams win more and the fact there are more losing bonus points in the Pro 12. We do not know the relative strengths of the bottom teams in the two leagues as there are no games to directly compare however we can infer from the facts of the league analysis that there is less gulf between the top and the bottom of the Pro 12 compared to the AP which would suggest the bottom of the AP is weaker. You also need to look at the differences between the top half teams - again the Pro 12 is a closer contest.

You cannot have it both ways - if the AP is a higher standard then the welsh teams would really struggle to be competitive bar perhaps the Ospreys. However it is clear the AP is not a higher standard - but comparative results show the Welsh teams would be in the bottom half of the AP anyway. i believe the teams in the middle of each league are of similar standards with the Pro 12 teams probably edging it.- and any rational analysis bears this out.

by quinsforever Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:08 pm

i can't believe this is even up for discussion. rabo sides focus on the HC, especially the irish provinces. this is easy to observe from how much better the provinces do in HC than the rest of Rabo, while the rabo league itself is, as several posters have highlighted, fairly close.

so comparing the rabo with AP is not just about comparing average results within HC, where everyone is trying hard, but it's also about comparing the domestic AP and Rabo leagues and making a judgement on whether the clubs play at the same level, with the same personnel in their domestic leagues, as in the HC.

pretty obvious, for a variety of reasons (financial, no relegation, no need to qualify for HC, irish player welfare program), that the standard of rugby in rabo is less than that displayed by the same rabo teams in the HC.

by quinsforever Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:11 pm

TJ wrote:Chunky - I normally ignore your erudite and well thought out posts. I will go back to doing so after this. However I will demolish this one

If the standard is higher in the AP then the welsh teams will struggle given their performance in the Pro 12. Ospreys are the only welsh team to have won more than they have lost. The welsh teams have been poor in the HC which gives a comparison between the top of the AP and the welsh

Clearly ~~the top of the~~three teams in the Pro12 isare better than the top of the AP in HC matches given their performances in the HC.

The Pro 12 is a more even league given the top teams are beaten more and the bottom teams win more and the fact there are more losing bonus points in the Pro 12. We do not know the relative strengths of the bottom teams in the two leagues as there are no games to directly compare however we can infer from the facts of the league analysis that there is less gulf between the top and the bottom of the Pro 12 compared to the AP. This just shows that privinces dont try very hard in the Rabo - as munchkin or welshmushroom said above the provinces qualify easily at only 60% intensity

You cannot have it both ways - if the AP is a higher standard then the welsh teams would really struggle to be competative bar perhaps the Ospreys. However it is clear the AP is not a higher standard - but comparative results show the Welsh teams would be in the bottom half of the AP anyway. i believe the teams in the middle of each league are of similar standards with the Pro 12 teams probably edging it.- and any rational analysis bears this out.

by TJ Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:11 pm

Quins - nonsense. the AP teams rest and rotate players as much if not more. Pro 12 teams have a higher proportion of internationals so lose a higher % of their top players to intenationals. It is simple nonsense to claim the pro 12 teams do not try in the league - and only someone who does not watch the games would suggest this. the pro 12 teams also tend to have shallower squads and to look after their players by not risking burnout as much by reducing the amount of games each plays.

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:17 pm

TJ wrote:
If the standard is higher in the AP then the welsh teams will struggle given their performance in the Pro 12. Ospreys are the only welsh team to have won more than they have lost. The welsh teams have been poor in the HC which gives a comparison between the top of the AP and the welsh

I have no idea what this means sorry. What have the welsh teams got to do with the quality of the current aviva premiership?

Clearly the top of the Pro12 is better than the top of the AP given their performances in the HC.

I think the 3 Irish sides are very strong. No one else is. The AP has more than 3 quality sides.

The Pro 12 is a more even league given the top teams are beaten more and the bottom teams win more and the fact there are more losing bonus points in the Pro 12. We do not know the relative strengths of the bottom teams in the two leagues as there are no games to directly compare however we can infer from the facts of the league analysis that there is less gulf between the top and the bottom of the Pro 12 compared to the AP.

Why on earth would you base league quality on amount of wins and lbps? If Division 5 east has lots of the bottom teams winning more, is that a better league than the pro12?

Utter nonsense.

if the AP is a higher standard then the welsh teams would really struggle to be competative bar perhaps the Ospreys.

I totally agree.

However it is clear the AP is not a higher standard

No it's not. Maybe in your head though.

comparative results show the Welsh teams would be in the bottom half of the AP anyway. i believe the teams in the middle of each league are of similar standards with the Pro 12 teams probably edging it.- and any rational analysis bears this out.

So your equating "what you believe" with "rational analysis" now?

You think

Leicester, Wasps, Sale, Exeter, Gloucester

are better teams than:

Glasgow, Dragons, Scarlets, Exeter, Cardiff

Really?

by quinsforever Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:20 pm

TJ wrote:Quins - nonsense. the AP teams rest and rotate players as much if not more. Pro 12 teams have a higher proportion of internationals so lose a higher % of their top players to intenationals. It is simple nonsense to claim the pro 12 teams do not try in the league - and only someone who does not watch the games would suggest this. the pro 12 teams also tend to have shallower squads and to look after their players by not risking burnout as much by reducing the amount of games each plays.

all of which points you mention TJ reduce the average quality of opposition in the rabo. the union controlled sides have different paymasters and a different agenda, i get it.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Jan 23, 2014 4:51 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
TJ wrote:
If the standard is higher in the AP then the welsh teams will struggle given their performance in the Pro 12. Ospreys are the only welsh team to have won more than they have lost. The welsh teams have been poor in the HC which gives a comparison between the top of the AP and the welsh

I have no idea what this means sorry. What have the welsh teams got to do with the quality of the current aviva premiership?

Clearly the top of the Pro12 is better than the top of the AP given their performances in the HC.
I think the 3 Irish sides are very strong. No one else is. The AP has more than 3 quality sides.

The Pro 12 is a more even league given the top teams are beaten more and the bottom teams win more and the fact there are more losing bonus points in the Pro 12. We do not know the relative strengths of the bottom teams in the two leagues as there are no games to directly compare however we can infer from the facts of the league analysis that there is less gulf between the top and the bottom of the Pro 12 compared to the AP.

Why on earth would you base league quality on amount of wins and lbps? If Division 5 east has lots of the bottom teams winning more, is that a better league than the pro12?

Utter nonsense.

if the AP is a higher standard then the welsh teams would really struggle to be competative bar perhaps the Ospreys.

I totally agree.

However it is clear the AP is not a higher standard

No it's not. Maybe in your head though.

comparative results show the Welsh teams would be in the bottom half of the AP anyway. i believe the teams in the middle of each league are of similar standards with the Pro 12 teams probably edging it.- and any rational analysis bears this out.

So your equating "what you believe" with "rational analysis" now?

You think

Leicester, Wasps, Sale, Exeter, Gloucester

are better teams than:

Glasgow, Dragons, Scarlets, Exeter, Cardiff

Really?

Chunky, I think we can all agree that Exeter are at least as good as Exeter - well done for bringing some clarity to the debate

Chief

by Chunky Norwich Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:01 pm

At least I know somebody's reading my posts.

by quinsforever Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:33 pm

exeter, like asbo, has multiple allegiances thumbsup

by TJ Thu Jan 23, 2014 6:55 pm

quinsforever wrote:
TJ wrote:Quins - nonsense. the AP teams rest and rotate players as much if not more. Pro 12 teams have a higher proportion of internationals so lose a higher % of their top players to intenationals. It is simple nonsense to claim the pro 12 teams do not try in the league - and only someone who does not watch the games would suggest this. the pro 12 teams also tend to have shallower squads and to look after their players by not risking burnout as much by reducing the amount of games each plays.
all of which points you mention TJ reduce the average quality of opposition in the rabo. the union controlled sides have different paymasters and a different agenda, i get it.

Yup - however it does not mean teams do not try in the league. Nor do they feild weakened teams in the league. Look at the top right now. One loss while others win and you drop right down the table. Glasgow win their two games in hand they go right up. In the AP the top two teams are well clear of the rest - and guess what - it means they no longer have to try - unfair advantage? Keep their powder dry for the HC? You could also claim it gives the Rabo unions an unfair advantage in the 6N as they don't have their players broken by playing too much Wink

Or you could claim as the english teams did until they stopped winning in the HC that the players are battle hardened. Whistle

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Jan 23, 2014 7:05 pm

quinsforever wrote:exeter, like asbo, has multiple allegiances

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:07 pm

quinsforever wrote:exeter, like asbo, has multiple allegiances

From today's Daily Mash:

Devon launches 'Absolutely crawling with beaver' tourism campaign

DEVON is promoting itself as the top holiday destination for lovers of beaver.

“You’ll be beating back the beaver with a stick”

The county’s tourist board is using the slogans ‘So much beaver it’s mental’ and ‘Our beaver is ready to play’ to advertise the sighting of a beaver on its riverbanks.

A spokesman said: “Obviously for a lot of holidaymakers the top priority is beaver. Lots and lots of beaver.

“Can they see beaver up close? Really get involved with the wet, wild beaver?

“If you’re coming to Devon for the beaver, you’re coming to the right place.

“Because a beaver lives here.”

Teacher Roy Hobbs said: “I quite like beavers but personally I’m more excited by sleek otters and big muscular bears.

“Not because I’m homosexual, it’s just that as a keen amateur naturalist I find carnivores more interesting.”

by quinsforever Thu Jan 23, 2014 8:23 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
quinsforever wrote:exeter, like asbo, has multiple allegiances

From today's Daily Mash:

Devon launches 'Absolutely crawling with beaver' tourism campaign

DEVON is promoting itself as the top holiday destination for lovers of beaver.

“You’ll be beating back the beaver with a stick”

The county’s tourist board is using the slogans ‘So much beaver it’s mental’ and ‘Our beaver is ready to play’ to advertise the sighting of a beaver on its riverbanks.

A spokesman said: “Obviously for a lot of holidaymakers the top priority is beaver. Lots and lots of beaver.

“Can they see beaver up close? Really get involved with the wet, wild beaver?

“If you’re coming to Devon for the beaver, you’re coming to the right place.

“Because a beaver lives here.”

Teacher Roy Hobbs said: “I quite like beavers but personally I’m more excited by sleek otters and big muscular bears.

“Not because I’m homosexual, it’s just that as a keen amateur naturalist I find carnivores more interesting.”

that is absolutely hysterical. made my week. thumbsup

by Intotouch Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:06 am

Getting back on topic..
I read today that Sam Warburton was showered with abuse online for signing a contract with the WRU to play in Wales. This left me stunned. I would have thought that the Welsh public would be delighted after so many defections to see a star player stay in the country. Is this typical of Welsh fans now? Would they rather see their best players leave the country than play on central contracts because of how angry they are with the WRU? Or is this just a few angry folk venting rage?

by quinsforever Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:10 am

no i think they would rather see their star players sign with the regions that have brought them on through.

the divide between rrw and wru is real, and is reflected by the fans. the "abuse" directed towards WRUburton on twitter is impossible to find.

honestly what do people expect from someone doing something completely revolutionary in welsh rugby - fair play to sam, but there are going to be some region supporters who are absolutely livid.

by HammerofThunor Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:11 am

From the sounds of it the worst people have said is call him a scab. Not exactly terrible if not nice. Also you do know some of the Poopie posted online? I mean you read this moderated forum for rugby supporters? And all the news about people being charged for comments that are horrific? Don't read "some people are knobs" as the "Welsh public"

by Guest Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:25 am

Intotouch wrote:Getting back on topic..
I read today that Sam Warburton was showered with abuse online for signing a contract with the WRU to play in Wales. This left me stunned. I would have thought that the Welsh public would be delighted after so many defections to see a star player stay in the country. Is this typical of Welsh fans now? Would they rather see their best players leave the country than play on central contracts because of how angry they are with the WRU? Or is this just a few angry folk venting rage?

I guess your last sentence could be your answer. I doubt it was a million people on twitter. Perhaps in the tens of people. So not really representative of welsh fans. So just a few angry folk venting rage. A minute % of the 3 million population of Wales.

by Allty Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:55 am

I guess your last sentence could be your answer. I doubt it was a million people on twitter. Perhaps in the tens of people. So not really representative of welsh fans. So just a few angry folk venting rage. A minute % of the 3 million population of Wales.[/quote]

Most of the ex players that I know would love to see central contracts as long as they are introduced fairly and wisely and to far more than 6 players.

The anti CC brigade are pretty much a minority of vociferous Regional supporters.

by quinsforever Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:57 am

and the BBc covered that as the main story rather than debate the merits of central contracting and its impact on welsh rugby.

the BBC has been so pro-Roger Lewis and the WRU during this whole episode it is embarrassing. is there some kind of masonic arrangement from his radio days at the beeb? seriously its unreal. warbs signs an absolutely revolutionary contract, first of its kind in wales, and the only discussion is about several "alleged" twitter comments that were a bit mean. that is appalling journalism.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:19 am

Rhys Priest land endures numerous hurtful twitter posts whenever he is selected, and if Wales lose. The amount of harsh comments today alone. But nothing gets mentioned about that

by quinsforever Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:46 am

if he signs a central contract i bet the bbc coverage will all of a sudden be about the twitter abuse he received, rather than discussing the main issue...

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Jan 29, 2014 12:32 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Rhys Priest land endures numerous hurtful twitter posts whenever he is selected, and if Wales lose. The amount of harsh comments today alone. But nothing gets mentioned about that

It does seem to be an increasingly common occurence with some rugby fans, but particularly with a section of Welsh fans (altho most countries have their own nutters) - ie Rolland, now Warburton, always Priestland - what's going on, Spidey?

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:06 pm

ASBO, you forgot Foxy and Gats being abused (although that time by non-welsh).

I really don't understand the twitter/facebook trolling at all, but it does seem a bit pack mentality. I know a load of people who don't understand rugby, and didn't understand the issues about the red card in the RWC fully, were emailing me jokes about Roland. I think it was that they just wanted to fit in. And I have a feeling the twitter abuse is a similar thing, "My mate told that player he had a bad game, well I will go one better and tell him my nan is better, oh that lad told him that his dead nan is better............mmmm better tell him a bald one legged donkey, with no teeth could have made that kick and it looks better than him too" sort of thing.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:12 pm

quinsforever wrote:and the BBc covered that as the main story rather than debate the merits of central contracting and its impact on welsh rugby.

the BBC has been so pro-Roger Lewis and the WRU during this whole episode it is embarrassing. is there some kind of masonic arrangement from his radio days at the beeb? seriously its unreal. warbs signs an absolutely revolutionary contract, first of its kind in wales, and the only discussion is about several "alleged" twitter comments that were a bit mean. that is appalling journalism.

This is very strange:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25932643

Coach Warren Gatland says he would prefer Welsh players move to France rather than England if they choose not to stay in Wales.

"The beauty of France at the moment over England is [players] are able to negotiate full release and that means they can be with us," he said

Does he not realise that Paul James and George North stayed in the Wales camp this week, while Lydiate, Hook, Roberts and Phillips had to fly back to France to play for their French clubs?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Jan 29, 2014 1:37 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:ASBO, you forgot Foxy and Gats being abused (although that time by non-welsh).

I really don't understand the twitter/facebook trolling at all, but it does seem a bit pack mentality. I know a load of people who don't understand rugby, and didn't understand the issues about the red card in the RWC fully, were emailing me jokes about Roland. I think it was that they just wanted to fit in. And I have a feeling the twitter abuse is a similar thing, "My mate told that player he had a bad game, well I will go one better and tell him my nan is better, oh that lad told him that his dead nan is better............mmmm better tell him a bald one legged donkey, with no teeth could have made that kick and it looks better than him too" sort of thing.

No hadn't forgotten those at all (Irish mainly, I guess), but Scots aren't immune from it either (ie daft messages sent to Desparate Dan Parks and Nick de Useless after one of his many needless YCs) - it just seems that there is a prevalence in Wales?

by Cardiff Dave Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:51 pm

Allty wrote:

I guess your last sentence could be your answer. I doubt it was a million people on twitter. Perhaps in the tens of people. So not really representative of welsh fans. So just a few angry folk venting rage. A minute % of the 3 million population of Wales.

Most of the ex players that I know would love to see central contracts as long as they are introduced fairly and wisely and to far more than 6 players.

The anti CC brigade are pretty much a minority of vociferous Regional supporters.[/quote]

Well the WRU's initial attempt at a CC involved plonking George North at Cardiff Blues. Not so sure that idea was fair or wise.
Like most of us on here, you and I included as well as the ex players you mention, we know very little of the details of these WRU central contracts. I'll rephrase that. We know sod all about them actually so it would be fair and wise to be sceptical at this present time.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Jan 29, 2014 2:57 pm

Yeah the Welsh do seem to have more keyboard warriors per capita than the rest of the home nations when it comes to rugby, but maybe that is because it is a game that means so much to us, or at lease people think it should and as such they feel the need to be involved but don't quite understand the etiquette. I took at mate to his first Scarlets game a few years back (Blues away), and he spent most of the first half heckling Xavier Rush, questioning Rush's parentage, weight issues, and sexuality. Everytime he opened his mouth I felt embarrassed, and I made a point of letting him know that it was not the done thing during half time, in the second half he was less mouthy. And now he has come to numerous games, and every time is getting more and more toned down, from being a 'football style' fan to being a 'rugby style' fan. I get the feeling that the twitter abuse is sort of like that, people need to be sat down and have the etiquette explained to them, and then they can learn.

I am sure there are more English folks hounding their football stars on twitter, and probably more Scottish ones doing the same too.

by Cardiff Dave Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:05 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
quinsforever wrote:and the BBc covered that as the main story rather than debate the merits of central contracting and its impact on welsh rugby.

the BBC has been so pro-Roger Lewis and the WRU during this whole episode it is embarrassing. is there some kind of masonic arrangement from his radio days at the beeb? seriously its unreal. warbs signs an absolutely revolutionary contract, first of its kind in wales, and the only discussion is about several "alleged" twitter comments that were a bit mean. that is appalling journalism.

This is very strange:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25932643

Coach Warren Gatland says he would prefer Welsh players move to France rather than England if they choose not to stay in Wales.

"The beauty of France at the moment over England is [players] are able to negotiate full release and that means they can be with us," he said

Does he not realise that Paul James and George North stayed in the Wales camp this week, while Lydiate, Hook, Roberts and Phillips had to fly back to France to play for their French clubs?

Tiz strange I must say.
Also, I bet those same Racing players will more than likely be back in Paris after the Ireland game, for training with their club and their Top14 game against Bayonne on 15 Feb. Best not mention that though eh?

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:11 pm

In fairness the English were playing in the LV= last weekend so they wouldn't have fielded North or James even if they were not in the Welsh squad (well it would be unlikely they would be fielded), where as the French were playing in the T14, so far more important matches.

by geoff998rugby Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:15 pm

Pure specualtion but does Gatland fear an anouncement to try and set up an AW league and he wants as many of his leading players out of it given the ensuing legal mess.

Does he fear players playing in such a competition not being available?

by Chunky Norwich Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:18 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:In fairness the English were playing in the LV= last weekend so they wouldn't have fielded North or James even if they were not in the Welsh squad (well it would be unlikely they would be fielded), where as the French were playing in the T14, so far more important matches.

But that fact just adds to the idea that it's best to play in England and not France.

So why is Gatland championing the notion that France is the place to go?

by Chunky Norwich Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:19 pm

geoff998rugby wrote:Pure specualtion but does Gatland fear an anouncement to try and set up an AW league and he wants as many of his leading players out of it given the ensuing legal mess.

Does he fear players playing in such a competition not being available?

Bingo

by Cardiff Dave Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:27 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
geoff998rugby wrote:Pure specualtion but does Gatland fear an anouncement to try and set up an AW league and he wants as many of his leading players out of it given the ensuing legal mess.

Does he fear players playing in such a competition not being available?

Bingo

Oh aye. I see what you're getting at. Good spot.

by Cardiff Dave Wed Jan 29, 2014 3:34 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:In fairness the English were playing in the LV= last weekend so they wouldn't have fielded North or James even if they were not in the Welsh squad (well it would be unlikely they would be fielded), where as the French were playing in the T14, so far more important matches.

It would be fairer if the media elaborated on the "full release" claim. I've read the same phrase many times recently and it implies that Gats' access to players is unaffected if they are based outside Wales.

by Cardiff Dave Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:01 pm

"British and Irish Lions half-back partners Mike Phillips and Jonathan Sexton both scored tries as Racing-Métro beat a vastly understrength Toulouse side 25-5 at the Stade de France on Saturday.
Opportunistic first-half tries from the Lions duo and two penalties from Sexton saw the hosts race to an 18-0 lead at the interval.
Fellow Lion Jamie Roberts also made an impact as his break set up winger Marc Andreu's try early in the second half. "
http://www.planetrugby.co.uk/story/0,25883,9818_9133324,00.html

Toulouse understrength coz their French internationals were released to the 6Ns squad.
Meh.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:04 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25932643

Coach Warren Gatland says he would prefer Welsh players move to France rather than England if they choose not to stay in Wales.

"The beauty of France at the moment over England is [players] are able to negotiate full release and that means they can be with us," he said

Just got round to reading that article, in bold is are the key words, because in the PRL after North there will be no way a player will be able to negotiate any non-international window release clause, where as in France they can, but most likely won't.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:05 pm

Dai, I watched some of that match, and actually fell asleep, it was dire.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:27 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Just got round to reading that article, in bold is are the key words, because in the PRL after North there will be no way a player will be able to negotiate any non-international window release clause, where as in France they can, but most likely won't.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Saints deal is a precedent. If say Saracens really, really wanted Adam Jones say, but Jones says only if I'm guaranteed full release, they will just factor in a £60k fine onto the cost of the marquee player, and ask PRL why they can't get away with what Saints have done.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:32 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Just got round to reading that article, in bold is are the key words, because in the PRL after North there will be no way a player will be able to negotiate any non-international window release clause, where as in France they can, but most likely won't.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Saints deal is a precedent. If say Saracens really, really wanted Adam Jones say, but Jones says only if I'm guaranteed full release, they will just factor in a £60k fine onto the cost of the marquee player, and ask PRL why they can't get away with what Saints have done.

True, hadn't thought of that. And the club would probably say well we can offer you (for example) £350k, but if you want full release call it £300k, as there will be fines etc to cover.

by Chunky Norwich Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:36 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

True, hadn't thought of that. And the club would probably say well we can offer you (for example) £350k, but if you want full release call it £300k, as there will be fines etc to cover.

Yes. The only thing though, is that PRL might launch an investigation and double the £60k fine to make a point.

If I was an English club I'd just do what Gloucester did with Hibbard and sign them under the PRL regs. If a player really wants to go he'll go. Just like Hibbard.

by Totalflanker Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:37 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Just got round to reading that article, in bold is are the key words, because in the PRL after North there will be no way a player will be able to negotiate any non-international window release clause, where as in France they can, but most likely won't.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Saints deal is a precedent. If say Saracens really, really wanted Adam Jones say, but Jones says only if I'm guaranteed full release, they will just factor in a £60k fine onto the cost of the marquee player, and ask PRL why they can't get away with what Saints have done.

I see the point re North's case being a precedent, but would imagine if PRL rules are continually being flaunted on player release the fines will become more punative until the PRL get the status quo right, just factoring in £60k won't cut it.

by Stone Motif Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:44 pm

Allty wrote:

The anti CC brigade are pretty much a minority of vociferous Regional supporters.

PriceWaterhouseCooper wrote:

And us

Alun-Wyn Jones wrote:

An' me

Leigh Halfpenny wrote:

And me an all

by Cardiff Dave Wed Jan 29, 2014 4:54 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Just got round to reading that article, in bold is are the key words, because in the PRL after North there will be no way a player will be able to negotiate any non-international window release clause, where as in France they can, but most likely won't.

I wouldn't be so sure. The Saints deal is a precedent. If say Saracens really, really wanted Adam Jones say, but Jones says only if I'm guaranteed full release, they will just factor in a £60k fine onto the cost of the marquee player, and ask PRL why they can't get away with what Saints have done.

True, hadn't thought of that. And the club would probably say well we can offer you (for example) £350k, but if you want full release call it £300k, as there will be fines etc to cover.

I wish "full release" could be negotiated for a certain somebody we all know. That would be good. thumbsup

by Allty Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:05 pm

[quote="Cardiff Dave"][quote="Allty"]

Well the WRU's initial attempt at a CC involved plonking George North at Cardiff Blues. Not so sure that idea was fair or wise.
Like most of us on here, you and I included as well as the ex players you mention, we know very little of the details of these WRU central contracts. I'll rephrase that. We know sod all about them actually so it would be fair and wise to be sceptical at this present time. [/quote]

I suggest we may never know what individual contracts are. That doesn't change the real need for wise sensible CC's for 15 + players leading to steadily 22 players

by Allty Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:11 pm

[quote="Stone Motif"][quote="Allty"]

The anti CC brigade are pretty much a minority of vociferous Regional supporters.[/quote]

[quote="PriceWaterhouseCooper"]

And us

[/quote]

[quote="Alun-Wyn Jones"]

An' me

[/quote]

[quote="Leigh Halfpenny"]

And me an all

[/quote]
[/quote]

Exactly Very Happy

Thats 2

Not sure if we have seen the PWC full report

by Chunky Norwich Wed Jan 29, 2014 7:55 pm

Allty wrote:

Not sure if we have seen the PWC full report

No. But we've been told about the bit that says:

Accountants PriceWaterhouseCoopers assessed the regions' finances up to April 2012 and highlighted options for the future. They raise, but dismiss, a return to a club-based system and central contracts for leading players.

by Guest Wed Jan 29, 2014 8:54 pm

RRW statement released today:

RRW POSITION ON CENTRAL CONTRACTS

We hope our supporters will respect that Regional Rugby Wales will not at this particular time be drawn into a public debate around national contracts being offered to our players; we have informed the WRU of our collective position on this issue this week so the governing body are aware of where we are. We will be continuing our focus on key matters of urgency to find solutions to address the future structure and sustainability of Welsh Rugby and still await details of what competitions, distribution and revenues will be relevant to the Welsh Regions next season."

Given some of the recent comments from those of RRW, I find this statement rather coy.

by quinsforever Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:06 pm

fair enough, they can only fight so many battles at the same time.

dont they have a self-imposed jan31st deadline for needing Euro rugby certainty or they are going to do something dramatic?

by Guest Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:21 pm

Nothing more dramatic than not signing the PA by their own deadline, and declaring to the world that they will press ahead with AW, and/or the super duper cup. Or in other words; let's stall for time.

I would think the the CCs would be part of the new PA, quins. They may need to come to a decision about that before the deadline. That is if they are serious about wanting agreement reached before then.

by quinsforever Wed Jan 29, 2014 9:45 pm

all very messy...

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