What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales
 

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

quinsforever wrote:all very messy...

Very true, quins. It has to end sometime, and sometime soon though. Hopefully however it ends it will be in the best interests of European rugby, that it will be the end of it, and not something that will be repeated in a few years time.

Stone Motif wrote:

Allty wrote:


 
The anti CC  brigade are pretty much a minority of vociferous Regional supporters.

 

PriceWaterhouseCooper wrote:

And us

 

Alun-Wyn Jones wrote:

An' me

 

Leigh Halfpenny wrote:

And me an all

From what AW Jones said, he was signing whatever contract that could guarantee gametime as he wants to play all the time. I don't think he has a problem with who his contract is with.

Munchkin wrote:Nothing more dramatic than not signing the PA by their own deadline, and declaring to the world that they will press ahead with AW, and/or the super duper cup. Or in other words; let's stall for time.

I would think the the CCs would be part of the new PA, quins. They may need to come to a decision about that before the deadline. That is if they are serious about wanting agreement reached before then.

Without doubt. If the PA is signed, it'll include something about CC. If they don't sign it, it doesn't really matter.

Sin é wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Allty wrote:


 
The anti CC  brigade are pretty much a minority of vociferous Regional supporters.

 

PriceWaterhouseCooper wrote:

And us

 

Alun-Wyn Jones wrote:

An' me

 

Leigh Halfpenny wrote:

And me an all

From what AW Jones said, he was signing whatever contract that could guarantee gametime as he wants to play all the time. I don't think he has a problem with who his contract is with.

I think you've got the wrong end of the stick. A W Jones stated that he signed with the Ospreys as that was the only way he could guarantee that he'd be playing with the Ospreys. If he'd signed with the WRU he felt that he may end up at another region which he didn't want. So it sounded like he had a problem with a WRU contract and the lack of clarity on where he may end up.

Surely if AWJ had a problem with the WRU contract it would be that Ospreys wouldn't play him if he signed it? From reading the WRU on Warbs contract, it seems the Blues have may been more accommodating?
Anywho....RRW have gone all shy on the subject for now. So we will just have to wait and see.

Munchkin wrote: Or in other words; let's stall for time.

In other words, this is going to court, so let's keep schtum as our legal advice is sensibly telling us, instead of mouthing off in the media proving ourselves to be liars like Jesus H Rog is doing...

Sin é wrote:

From what AW Jones said, he was signing whatever contract that could guarantee gametime as he wants to play all the time. I don't think he has a problem with who his contract is with.

From what Alun-Wyn Jones said, he was prepared to 'disappoint' the WRU as signing a central contract with them would mean he was playing ten games a season, you're right.

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote: Or in other words; let's stall for time.

In other words, this is going to court, so let's keep schtum as our legal advice is sensibly telling us,  instead of mouthing off in the media proving ourselves to be liars like Jesus H Rog is doing...

It might be, but I doubt it very much. Court might prove very damaging for the regions. I think it's more likely that they're hoping WRU will give in over time. Watching that Scrum v special, Lewis made a point of explaining that the January 31 deadline wasn't really necessary. I think he was sending the message that the WRU wouldn't be pressed by any RRW deadlines.

I don't know if Lewis is a liar, or not. You would need to back that up with firm evidence. Not so sure that RRW are pure as the driven snow either mind you.
Those of the RRW keeping shtum is a novelty, but better that than expose themselves perhaps? Maybe the reason they are keeping shtum is they don't want to reveal a split over the CC issue with Warbs? Maybe?

Munchkin wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote: Or in other words; let's stall for time.

In other words, this is going to court, so let's keep schtum as our legal advice is sensibly telling us,  instead of mouthing off in the media proving ourselves to be liars like Jesus H Rog is doing...

It might be, but I doubt it very much. Court might prove very damaging for the regions. I think it's more likely that they're hoping WRU will give in over time. Watching that Scrum v special, Lewis made a point of explaining that the January 31 deadline wasn't really necessary. I think he was sending the message that the WRU wouldn't be pressed by any RRW deadlines.

I don't know if Lewis is a liar, or not. You would need to back that up with firm evidence. Not so sure that RRW are pure as the driven snow either mind you.
Those of the RRW keeping shtum is a novelty, but better that than expose themselves perhaps? Maybe the reason they are keeping shtum is they don't want to reveal a split over the CC issue with Warbs? Maybe?

Jesus wept. How's this for starters? http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1336

That's before we get into this whole charade over centrally contracting the gang of six for £1m.

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote: Or in other words; let's stall for time.

In other words, this is going to court, so let's keep schtum as our legal advice is sensibly telling us,  instead of mouthing off in the media proving ourselves to be liars like Jesus H Rog is doing...

It might be, but I doubt it very much. Court might prove very damaging for the regions. I think it's more likely that they're hoping WRU will give in over time. Watching that Scrum v special, Lewis made a point of explaining that the January 31 deadline wasn't really necessary. I think he was sending the message that the WRU wouldn't be pressed by any RRW deadlines.

I don't know if Lewis is a liar, or not. You would need to back that up with firm evidence. Not so sure that RRW are pure as the driven snow either mind you.
Those of the RRW keeping shtum is a novelty, but better that than expose themselves perhaps? Maybe the reason they are keeping shtum is they don't want to reveal a split over the CC issue with Warbs? Maybe?

Jesus wept.  How's this for starters?  http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1336

That's before we get into this whole charade over centrally contracting the gang of six for £1m.  

Gwlad....that's a parody site, right? A bit like Private Eye...

Yes, I read the article. One Big Lie. It is farcical though, isn't it? Farcical comedy on a parody site? Roger Lewis' one big lie is that he talked more to the press than he claims he did. Absolutely shocking! How can a man behave like this! Throw him in prison! .....

Not really. If that is all you have then by today's standards the man is probably being considered for sainthood  

The regions have now reversed their decision on staying shtum on CCs....:


"Regional Rugby Wales (RRW) on behalf of the four Welsh Regions would like to issue the following statement to clarify its position on national contracts.
Firstly, it is important for the Welsh Regions to stress that they have the utmost respect for Sam Warburton as a player, a leader, a young man of great integrity and as an important role model for every young rugby player inside and outside Wales.
At the same time, the Regions respect and support the right of Sam or any individual to make their own decision for their future based on their understanding of the choices available to them at any one time.
The introduction of one individual national contract at this particular time, however, leaves the Regions bemused and they would question the strategy behind the bizarre action by the WRU given that a final agreement on the future of Welsh Rugby has yet to be reached.
The Regions would ask what kind of message this sends out about Welsh Rugby to our colleagues in the game across the world.
The Regions would also question how one national contract works as a constructive and sustainable strategy for the whole of Welsh rugby given that we have some 200 professional players in Wales contracted to the Regions.
The Regions are concerned about the impact of this action, the confusion it creates within Welsh Rugby at this time and how it may unsettle the balance of strong and close-knit team environments at the Regions.
For many months through the proper channels of the PRGB, the Regions have attempted to discuss a number of pragmatic options for different contract models with the WRU; as part of a wider structural solution that focuses on delivering sustainable and competitive professional rugby at all levels over the next ten years.
These proposals had at their core the objective of retaining our Welsh International players and ensuring they trained and played their weekly rugby in Wales.
The proposals also confirmed that the Regions would only play a centrally contracted player on collective agreement between all four Regions – as part of a complete structural solution for the future of the game in Wales.
This agreement between the Four Regions was to ensure that any national contract agreement was part of a clear and proper strategy and agreed framework to achieve long-term solutions for player retention in Wales; and guard against any quick fix, ad-hoc action.
No overall framework has been agreed between the WRU and Regions, so no agreement to play centrally contracted players in the Regions currently exists.
As concluded by PWC, the Regions do not believe a central contract structure alone is the answer to the challenges facing the professional game in Wales today or in the future – there is a much wider picture and more pressing issues to address.
Over the entire time of options being tabled, the WRU has resolutely refused to undertake any discussion, of any option, beyond the absolute conditions that the cost of any National Contract must be deducted from the Region’s existing income; and that the Regions must agree to sign the extension option to the previous Participation Agreement.
The Regions therefore cannot understand how, or why, the WRU have now completely reversed their stance in just weeks.
It is also important to make clear that the national contract announcement was made the day before the Regions were due to respond to the WRU’s recent proposal of a new Operating Agreement. The news arrived whilst the Regions were attempting to discuss and agree the fundamental principles on which any new agreement should be based.
The critically urgent priority remains the immediate confirmation of committed competition platforms and revenues for next season, to enable key commercial activity including fixture lists, season tickets and sponsor agreements to be delivered across the four Regional businesses.
This is the only outcome that will remove uncertainty for more than 400 professional, semi-pro and development players in Wales, together with coaching and regional staff and the passionate and dedicated supporters, sponsors and business partners that support the Regional game week in, week out.
Regional Rugby Wales outlined its concerns to the Welsh Rugby Union in a letter to the governing body earlier this week."

So much for them just buying time.

HammerofThunor wrote:So much for them just buying time.

ahem.... the stalling was in reference to the possibility of RRW not signing the PA before the January 31 deadline   

So much for RRW opting out of public debate on the issue...

I think it might be a knee jerk response to Warbs Torygraph  interview on central contracts.

They are a bunch od idiots none of them have or will come out of this with out some damage to their reputations as for the timing of the statement well its complete and utter bollards.

bedfordwelsh wrote:They are a bunch od idiots none of them have or will come out of this with out some damage to their reputations as for the timing of the statement well its complete and utter bollards.

Yep RRW should have waited until about 12 noon on Saturday to put the release out, play the game exactly the same as the union   

bedfordwelsh wrote:as for the timing of the statement well its complete and utter bollards.

Wait and see what else happens in the next 48 hours.

Munchkin wrote: Gwlad....that's a parody site, right? A bit like Private Eye...

Yes, I read the article. One Big Lie. It is farcical though, isn't it? Farcical comedy on a parody site? Roger Lewis' one big lie is that he talked more to the press than he claims he did. Absolutely shocking! How can a man behave like this! Throw him in prison! .....

Not really. If that is all you have then by today's standards the man is probably being considered for sainthood  

Yes, that much of a parody site that people actually involved in this war are currently posting on there.  

In other words, people a lot more informed that you and the rest of your Rog is Jesus brigade.

The man running amateur and professional games in this country into the dirt, to the extent that the four professional sides will need to take legal action against him to survive, is a proven liar in the press.

Notwithstanding the pisstaking tone of the Gwlad article, this whiter than white BS over his deplorable press conduct is the tip of the iceberg, which you would know were you not so clearly bamboozled by his management-speak Tourettes. Lewis has lied about the WRU 'war chest' available to sign the six out-of-contract internationals. He has lied about the terms and conditions of the participation agreement. He has lied to the supporters groups in person. He lies about who pays for the regional academies.

What do you think Rumpole of the Regions is going to say about all this if it gets to court? The man cannot be trusted to do other than line his own pockets and talk in vapid cliches. His only defence is that Dai Bach on the street in Wales laps this Poopie up by the bucketload due to his general low intelligence, poor grasp of the situation, sense of entitlement, suspicion of anyone remotely successful, and the fact that he only really cares about rugby insomuch as it is a good excuse to get slaughtered every February.

Well said

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote: Gwlad....that's a parody site, right? A bit like Private Eye...

Yes, I read the article. One Big Lie. It is farcical though, isn't it? Farcical comedy on a parody site? Roger Lewis' one big lie is that he talked more to the press than he claims he did. Absolutely shocking! How can a man behave like this! Throw him in prison! .....

Not really. If that is all you have then by today's standards the man is probably being considered for sainthood  

Yes, that much of a parody site that people actually involved in this war are currently posting on there.  

In other words, people a lot more informed that you and the rest of your Rog is Jesus brigade.

The man running amateur and professional games in this country into the dirt, to the extent that the four professional sides will need to take legal action against him to survive, is a proven liar in the press.

Notwithstanding the pisstaking tone of the Gwlad article, this whiter than white BS over his deplorable press conduct is the tip of the iceberg, which you would know were you not so clearly bamboozled by his management-speak Tourettes.  Lewis has lied about the WRU 'war chest' available to sign the six out-of-contract internationals. He has lied about the terms and conditions of the participation agreement.  He has lied to the supporters groups in person.  He lies about who pays for the regional academies.  

What do you think Rumpole of the Regions is going to say about all this if it gets to court?  The man cannot be trusted to do other than line his own pockets and talk in vapid cliches.  His only defence is that Dai Bach on the street in Wales laps this Poopie up by the bucketload due to his general low intelligence, poor grasp of the situation, sense of entitlement, suspicion of anyone remotely successful, and the fact that he only really cares about rugby insomuch as it is a good excuse to get slaughtered every February.

You seem a tad upset   

My comments about Gwlad were tongue in cheek, although it has to be said some are rather blinkered. Just like all the other sites I guess, but perhaps a little more so.
On Lewis, and being bamboozled by his management speak? As much as you would like to believe so, that simply isn't true. Not for me. On the Scrum V special, Lewis answered most of his question fairly well, but let himself down on the question of new regions. He also let himself down in his attempt at sharing his prepared speech on the merits, and achievements, of WRU. Not the time, or the place for such. His attempt at psyching out the audience with eye contact was as obvious as it was woeful. So no, I'm not overly impressed with the man. Public speaking just isn't his forte.

You claim he has lied about things, but I'm not going to take your word for it. Provide evidence in support of your contention. He could well have lied, but you would need to convince me.

As for the regions taking this to court. The regions really don't want to do this. I don't believe they will. It would be a massive risk, and you need to remember that it isn't just WRU that will have their dirty undies on display.

So what's stopping RRW from just coming out and saying as of next season we are going to join the English premiership and play our games against them rather than in the Rabo? If they have sound legal advice that they could lawfully do so and the guarantee of acceptance from PRL and RFU that they can join next September why don't they just go?
The rewards are much greater in the Jeff (£4 million a year I believe has been quoted), they'll get bigger crowds and will be free of any ties both to the "dictatorial" WRU above them and the "ungrateful" clubs below them.
At the moment they sound like a teenager breaking up with his girlfriend "right I'm going", takes on step towards the door, "I'm really going" takes another step towards the door, "I'm really definately going", take another step and so on until they reach the door and then burst into tears and plead to be given one more chance.

Munchkin wrote:

You claim he has lied about things, but I'm not going to take your word for it. Provide evidence in support of your contention. He could well have lied, but you would need to convince me.

If we all give 1 lie each. Maybe we can fill the thread up. I'll start with this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq-4kz43NmM

Roger Lewis: "In the past year we've allocated £16.9 m to the regions, plus £600,000 to their academies and there is a further £1m which we want to inject immediately" (That is £18.5m)

http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/ARA_Final1.pdf

Annual report: "The Welsh regions receive £15.9m (plus the mythical £1m that was never given to them for keeping players in Wales)

Which is it Rog? £15.9m? Or £18.5m ?

(We know that the truth is actually £6.6m but that is for another lie)

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

You claim he has lied about things, but I'm not going to take your word for it. Provide evidence in support of your contention. He could well have lied, but you would need to convince me.

If we all give 1 lie each. Maybe we can fill the thread up. I'll start with this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq-4kz43NmM

Roger Lewis: "In the past year we've allocated £16.9 m to the regions, plus £600,000 to their academies and there is a further £1m which we want to inject immediately" (That is £18.5m)

http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/ARA_Final1.pdf

Annual report: "The Welsh regions receive £15.9m (plus the mythical £1m that was never given to them for keeping players in Wales)

Which is it Rog? £15.9m? Or £18.5m ?

(We know that the truth is actually £6.6m but that is for another lie)

Thanks for the links. Lewis, and the WRU, sent a reply to Government recently in response to a request for information about funding the regions, etc, and which addresses some of the allegations against them, such as those surrounding the MS loan repayments. Worth a look, but I will have a closer look at the information you provide later.

WRU clarification on Central Contracts:

WRU STATEMENT - NATIONAL CONTRACTS

The Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) has moved to set out its arguments in full for securing the future of our international captain, Sam Warburton, to Wales under a new National Contract.

The overarching strategy of the WRU is to keep as many international players under contract in Wales with our four Regions as possible.

In order to achieve that aim the WRU encourages the four Regions to contract as many key players as they can under direct contracts.

If any Region cannot agree terms with a key international player the WRU will be prepared to negotiate a National Contract with the individual in order to keep them in Wales as the WRU did with Sam Warburton.

A nationally contracted player will be offered back to their Region of origin free of charge which means the money they would have been paying that individual could then be spent on other players to bolster their squad.

The clear intention is to ensure the four Regions have the opportunity of gathering the strongest squads possible to compete on domestic and European stages.

To support this strategy the WRU has encouraged The Scarlets and The Ospreys to conclude negotiations with Scott Williams and Rhys Priestland and Adam Jones respectively.

The WRU remains willing to step in with National Contract offers for those individuals who were nominated by the Regions, late in 2013 as players they regarded as key members of their squads, whose services should be retained in Wales.

If the necessary negotiations are completed and the National Contract formula is secured in a new Rugby Services Agreement, the WRU will be prepared for some key contracts held by the Regions to revert to the governing body if the Regions wish and the players agree.

Munchkin wrote:

Thanks for the links. Lewis, and the WRU, sent a reply to Government recently in response to a request for information about funding the regions, etc, and which addresses some of the allegations against them, such as those surrounding the MS loan repayments. Worth a look, but I will have a closer look at the information you provide later.

Yup. One of the percentage figures was wrong in it too. Consider these 2 points also:

1) The MS loan you talk about - is linked to the turnover. i.e. - turonover has to be above a certain amount, before Barclays bank start to insist the repayment at their levels instead of WRU's.

2) The reduction of debt is thought to be linked to the CEOs renumeration.

With that in mind, it makes you instantly aware of why the WRU do not want to allow the regions to control their own competition negotiation.

Why?

Because the turnover would decrease by £10m overnight. (The £10m is competition money for HCup, LV Cup and Pro12 that is owed to the regions but pumped through the WRU accounts to boost turnover figures and "moneys allocated to regions2 figures.

Munchkin wrote:Surely if AWJ had a problem with the WRU contract it would be that Ospreys wouldn't play him if he signed it? From reading the WRU on Warbs contract, it seems the Blues have may been more accommodating?
Anywho....RRW have gone all shy on the subject for now. So we will just have to wait and see.

I don't think the Blues are more accommodating, I can see the following scenario for the 2014/15 season at the Blues

Ellis Jenkins the very highly rated openside flanker, who at 20 is already the Welsh U20s Captain having led them to the 2013 Junior World Cup finals and recently captained the Blues will be playing a lot for the Blues. He has already made timely comments about being a committed Cardiff RFC club man and is thrilled to have been offered a long term contract.

So what do you think the Blues DoR Phil Davies is going to opt for and develop and play in the bog standard Rabo, LV and also for the high profile Rabo and HC matches..... a highly committed, potentially better regional player who is five years younger, future potential regional captain and committed club/regional player or a man who is committed to the WRU.

Phil Davies Blues Director of Rugby wrote:"At Cardiff Blues we have some of the brightest young back-row players in Welsh rugby, so the news that Ellis has agreed a new contract is absolutely fantastic.

"Ellis is... a very mature and intelligent young player, especially at the breakdown where he makes good decisions.

"We're pleased that we've retained his services because he would have undoubtedly attracted the attention of other clubs. But he wants to remain a Blues player and help this region get even stronger."

Or will the WRU force the Blues to play their £300k pa, International Welsh Captain so that he can always be ready for the international stage?

Munchkin wrote:WRU clarification on Central Contracts:

WRU STATEMENT - NATIONAL CONTRACTS

The Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) has moved to set out its arguments in full for securing the future of our international captain, Sam Warburton, to Wales under a new National Contract.

The overarching strategy of the WRU is to keep as many international players under contract in Wales with our four Regions as possible.

In order to achieve that aim the WRU encourages the four Regions to contract as many key players as they can under direct contracts.

If any Region cannot agree terms with a key international player the WRU will be prepared to negotiate a National Contract with the individual in order to keep them in Wales as the WRU did with Sam Warburton.

A nationally contracted player will be offered back to their Region of origin free of charge which means the money they would have been paying that individual could then be spent on other players to bolster their squad.

The clear intention is to ensure the four Regions have the opportunity of gathering the strongest squads possible to compete on domestic and European stages.

To support this strategy the WRU has encouraged The Scarlets and The Ospreys to conclude negotiations with Scott Williams and Rhys Priestland and Adam Jones respectively.

The WRU remains willing to step in with National Contract offers for those individuals who were nominated by the Regions, late in 2013 as players they regarded as key members of their squads, whose services should be retained in Wales.

If the necessary negotiations are completed and the National Contract formula is secured in a new Rugby Services Agreement, the WRU will be prepared for some key contracts held by the Regions to revert to the governing body if the Regions wish and the players agree.

Add Sam to these 3 and it equates to about £1m-ish. The same £1m that was peddled a few months ago possibly? Also how could the WRU afford to CC any more players than this ie where would the cash come from?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Thanks for the links. Lewis, and the WRU, sent a reply to Government recently in response to a request for information about funding the regions, etc, and which addresses some of the allegations against them, such as those surrounding the MS loan repayments. Worth a look, but I will have a closer look at the information you provide later.

Yup. One of the percentage figures was wrong in it too. Consider these 2 points also:

1) The MS loan you talk about - is linked to the turnover. i.e. - turonover has to be above a certain amount, before Barclays bank start to insist the repayment at their levels instead of WRU's.

2) The reduction of debt is thought to be linked to the CEOs renumeration.

With that in mind, it makes you instantly aware of why the WRU do not want to allow the regions to control their own competition negotiation.

Why?

Because the turnover would decrease by £10m overnight. (The £10m is competition money for HCup, LV Cup and Pro12 that is owed to the regions but pumped through the WRU accounts to boost turnover figures and "moneys allocated to regions2 figures.

Interesting. Would all be revealed if we end up in court?

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Interesting. Would all be revealed if we end up in court?

I do hope so.

Irish Londoner wrote:So what's stopping RRW from just coming out and saying as of next season we are going to join the English premiership and play our games against them rather than in the Rabo? If they have sound legal advice that they could lawfully do so and the guarantee of acceptance from PRL and RFU that they can join next September why don't they just go?
The rewards are much greater in the Jeff (£4 million a year I believe has been quoted), they'll get bigger crowds and will be free of any ties both to the "dictatorial" WRU above them and the "ungrateful" clubs below them.
At the moment they sound like a teenager breaking up with his girlfriend "right I'm going", takes on step towards the door, "I'm really going" takes another step towards the door, "I'm really definately going", take another step and so on until they reach the door and then burst into tears and plead to be given one more chance.

The RCC I think and not the Jeff.

Stone Motif wrote:

Munchkin wrote: Gwlad....that's a parody site, right? A bit like Private Eye...

Yes, I read the article. One Big Lie. It is farcical though, isn't it? Farcical comedy on a parody site? Roger Lewis' one big lie is that he talked more to the press than he claims he did. Absolutely shocking! How can a man behave like this! Throw him in prison! .....

Not really. If that is all you have then by today's standards the man is probably being considered for sainthood  

Yes, that much of a parody site that people actually involved in this war are currently posting on there.  

In other words, people a lot more informed that you and the rest of your Rog is Jesus brigade.

The man running amateur and professional games in this country into the dirt, to the extent that the four professional sides will need to take legal action against him to survive, is a proven liar in the press.

Notwithstanding the pisstaking tone of the Gwlad article, this whiter than white BS over his deplorable press conduct is the tip of the iceberg, which you would know were you not so clearly bamboozled by his management-speak Tourettes.  Lewis has lied about the WRU 'war chest' available to sign the six out-of-contract internationals. He has lied about the terms and conditions of the participation agreement.  He has lied to the supporters groups in person.  He lies about who pays for the regional academies.  

What do you think Rumpole of the Regions is going to say about all this if it gets to court?  The man cannot be trusted to do other than line his own pockets and talk in vapid cliches.  His only defence is that Dai Bach on the street in Wales laps this Poopie up by the bucketload due to his general low intelligence, poor grasp of the situation, sense of entitlement, suspicion of anyone remotely successful, and the fact that he only really cares about rugby insomuch as it is a good excuse to get slaughtered every February.

and half of March....mun.

Irish Londoner wrote:So what's stopping RRW from just coming out and saying as of next season we are going to join the English premiership and play our games against them rather than in the Rabo? If they have sound legal advice that they could lawfully do so and the guarantee of acceptance from PRL and RFU that they can join next September why don't they just go?
The rewards are much greater in the Jeff (£4 million a year I believe has been quoted), they'll get bigger crowds and will be free of any ties both to the "dictatorial" WRU above them and the "ungrateful" clubs below them.
At the moment they sound like a teenager breaking up with his girlfriend "right I'm going", takes on step towards the door, "I'm really going" takes another step towards the door, "I'm really definately going", take another step and so on until they reach the door and then burst into tears and plead to be given one more chance.

The courts will likely take a friendlier view to an organisation that can prove it has tried it's utmost to make a partnership work.

As it stands, RRW voluntarily gave up another month of their time to try and push a deal together with WRU. That ends tomorrow.

Munchkin wrote:The regions have now reversed their decision on staying shtum on CCs....:

"As concluded by PWC, the Regions do not believe a central contract structure alone is the answer to the challenges facing the professional game in Wales today or in the future – there is a much wider picture and more pressing issues to address.
Over the entire time of options being tabled, the WRU has resolutely refused to undertake any discussion, of any option, beyond the absolute conditions that the cost of any National Contract must be deducted from the Region’s existing income; and that the Regions must agree to sign the extension option to the previous Participation Agreement.
The Regions therefore cannot understand how, or why, the WRU have now completely reversed their stance in just weeks.
"

So have I got this right; the initial "offer" meant that the costs of any CCs would be deducted from the £6m to the regions?

I got an email from Scarlets with RRW statement saying, and I am paraphrasing, we have a heard no news of yet about Europe or if Celtic league will be 10 or 12 teams. We need to know these before end of Jan in order to legally sign any agreement going forward, time is running out, we need to sort out squads, kid, merch. etc. We have a £16m over 3yrs deal for a 16 team cup on the table, and it is a firm offer. Unless the WRU give us solid facts on Celtic league and Europe by end of Jan we will look else where.

Also RRW have sent out a letter to all 320 clubs explaining their position, quite articulately and clear, and say they don't want to split from the union.

Reading between the lines, it looks like we are off.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

You claim he has lied about things, but I'm not going to take your word for it. Provide evidence in support of your contention. He could well have lied, but you would need to convince me.

If we all give 1 lie each. Maybe we can fill the thread up. I'll start with this one:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq-4kz43NmM

Roger Lewis: "In the past year we've allocated £16.9 m to the regions, plus £600,000 to their academies and there is a further £1m which we want to inject immediately" (That is £18.5m)

http://www.wru.co.uk/downloads/ARA_Final1.pdf

Annual report: "The Welsh regions receive £15.9m (plus the mythical £1m that was never given to them for keeping players in Wales)

Which is it Rog? £15.9m? Or £18.5m ?

(We know that the truth is actually £6.6m but that is for another lie)

The £1m quoted. I take it that is the money set aside for central contracts? If it is then you can't really add it to the £16.9m. Are you disputing £600,000 to the regions academies?

Where are you getting the £15.9m from? I might have skipped it in the report, but £16.9m is in the report:


 Operational costs
- Elite rugby                                  4.2        4.1
- Community rugby                         2.7        2.1
                                                  6.9        6.2
Allocations to affiliates
- Regions (Professional)             16.9      15.1
- Clubs (Semi - professional)          1.2         1.2
- Community rugby                       4.0         3.8
                                               22.1       20.1
Total investment in “Welsh Rugby” 29.0       26.3

The figures seem to add up, thus far, unless you're saying that the regions are denying the have received £16.9m between them?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The regions have now reversed their decision on staying shtum on CCs....:

"As concluded by PWC, the Regions do not believe a central contract structure alone is the answer to the challenges facing the professional game in Wales today or in the future – there is a much wider picture and more pressing issues to address.
Over the entire time of options being tabled, the WRU has resolutely refused to undertake any discussion, of any option, beyond the absolute conditions that the cost of any National Contract must be deducted from the Region’s existing income; and that the Regions must agree to sign the extension option to the previous Participation Agreement.
The Regions therefore cannot understand how, or why, the WRU have now completely reversed their stance in just weeks.
"

So have I got this right; the initial "offer" meant that the costs of any CCs would be deducted from the £6m to the regions?

You have it right if the regions claim is true. I did read an article recently in which it's claimed that the WRU, and the regions were near agreement on dual contracts. Both the regions, and WRU, would then commit to pay player wages. Apparently that went to the wall as the fight over signing the PA escalated.

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The regions have now reversed their decision on staying shtum on CCs....:

"As concluded by PWC, the Regions do not believe a central contract structure alone is the answer to the challenges facing the professional game in Wales today or in the future – there is a much wider picture and more pressing issues to address.
Over the entire time of options being tabled, the WRU has resolutely refused to undertake any discussion, of any option, beyond the absolute conditions that the cost of any National Contract must be deducted from the Region’s existing income; and that the Regions must agree to sign the extension option to the previous Participation Agreement.
The Regions therefore cannot understand how, or why, the WRU have now completely reversed their stance in just weeks.
"

So have I got this right; the initial "offer" meant that the costs of any CCs would be deducted from the £6m to the regions?

You have it right if the regions claim is true. I did read an article recently in which it's claimed that the WRU, and the regions were near agreement on dual contracts. Both the regions, and WRU, would then commit to pay player wages. Apparently that went to the wall as the fight over signing the PA escalated.

Had more strings attached than the Royal fecking Philharmonic.....probably.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The regions have now reversed their decision on staying shtum on CCs....:

"As concluded by PWC, the Regions do not believe a central contract structure alone is the answer to the challenges facing the professional game in Wales today or in the future – there is a much wider picture and more pressing issues to address.
Over the entire time of options being tabled, the WRU has resolutely refused to undertake any discussion, of any option, beyond the absolute conditions that the cost of any National Contract must be deducted from the Region’s existing income; and that the Regions must agree to sign the extension option to the previous Participation Agreement.
The Regions therefore cannot understand how, or why, the WRU have now completely reversed their stance in just weeks.
"

So have I got this right; the initial "offer" meant that the costs of any CCs would be deducted from the £6m to the regions?

You have it right if the regions claim is true. I did read an article recently in which it's claimed that the WRU, and the regions were near agreement on dual contracts. Both the regions, and WRU, would then commit to pay player wages. Apparently that went to the wall as the fight over signing the PA escalated.

Had more strings attached than the Royal fecking Philharmonic.....probably.

The point is that the regions were near to agreement on dual contracting. It isn't that they were resisting due to WRU conditions. I think it's true that WRU want control, or at least greater control, of the regions in return for an increase in funding.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I got an email from Scarlets with RRW statement saying, and I am paraphrasing, we have a heard no news of yet about Europe or if Celtic league will be 10 or 12 teams.  We need to know these before end of Jan in order to legally sign any agreement going forward, time is running out, we need to sort out squads, kid, merch. etc.  We have a £16m over 3yrs deal for a 16 team cup on the table, and it is a firm offer.  Unless the WRU give us solid facts on Celtic league and Europe by end of Jan we will look else where.

Also RRW have sent out a letter to all 320 clubs explaining their position, quite articulately and clear, and say they don't want to split from the union.

Reading between the lines, it looks like we are off.

16 team cup, not league. And £16M for 3 years, is that just Scarlets or RRW? Because £5M+ is amazing. £1.3M is not, not without a league.

Lookout, it's raining cash in Cardiff all of a sudden.
Derwyn will be swinging his pants reading this.

30 Jan 2014 20:00
"WRU make extra £2m available to give more Wales stars central contracts"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-make-extra-2million-available-6650703

Cardiff Dave wrote:Lookout, it's raining cash in Cardiff all of a sudden.
Derwyn will be swinging his pants reading this.

30 Jan 2014 20:00
"WRU make extra £2m available to give more Wales stars central contracts"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-make-extra-2million-available-6650703

Funny how they can find money suddenly! Shame they can't seem to do the most important thing an just work out what competitions they want us in. No point contracting players when its possibly only a pro10 for next season.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Lookout, it's raining cash in Cardiff all of a sudden.
Derwyn will be swinging his pants reading this.

30 Jan 2014 20:00
"WRU make extra £2m available to give more Wales stars central contracts"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-make-extra-2million-available-6650703

Funny how they can find money suddenly!  Shame they can't seem to do the most important thing an just work out what competitions they want us in.  No point contracting players when its possibly only a pro10 for next season.

Haven't WRU already stated what competitions the regions are expected to participate in? The Rabo, and HEC? The AP agreement may require the regions to agree to WRU central contracts. Maybe there's no point discussing competitions until that agreement is found.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The regions have now reversed their decision on staying shtum on CCs....:

"As concluded by PWC, the Regions do not believe a central contract structure alone is the answer to the challenges facing the professional game in Wales today or in the future – there is a much wider picture and more pressing issues to address.
Over the entire time of options being tabled, the WRU has resolutely refused to undertake any discussion, of any option, beyond the absolute conditions that the cost of any National Contract must be deducted from the Region’s existing income; and that the Regions must agree to sign the extension option to the previous Participation Agreement.
The Regions therefore cannot understand how, or why, the WRU have now completely reversed their stance in just weeks.
"

So have I got this right; the initial "offer" meant that the costs of any CCs would be deducted from the £6m to the regions?

You have it right if the regions claim is true. I did read an article recently in which it's claimed that the WRU, and the regions were near agreement on dual contracts. Both the regions, and WRU, would then commit to pay player wages. Apparently that went to the wall as the fight over signing the PA escalated.

Had more strings attached than the Royal fecking Philharmonic.....probably.

Nice pub actually.

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Lookout, it's raining cash in Cardiff all of a sudden.
Derwyn will be swinging his pants reading this.

30 Jan 2014 20:00
"WRU make extra £2m available to give more Wales stars central contracts"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-make-extra-2million-available-6650703

Funny how they can find money suddenly!  Shame they can't seem to do the most important thing an just work out what competitions they want us in.  No point contracting players when its possibly only a pro10 for next season.

Haven't WRU already stated what competitions the regions are expected to participate in? The Rabo, and HEC? The AP agreement may require the regions to agree to WRU central contracts. Maybe there's no point discussing competitions until that agreement is found.

yes, that worked out really well didnt it.

"you boyz over there, you go and play in these tournaments, and we'll give you less money, in spite of a seriously better offer elsewhere, cuz that's what we mean by looking after your best interests. and if as a result of this poor commercial deal, you cant afford to keep your star players, don't worry, we'll centrally contract them for you "

  

Less money? The money they currently receive against.....something that has never, and does not, exist? Can't be less.

BBC reporting that £800k ERC money, due to RRW, is being held back by ERC   Absolutely fantasy stuff. Apparently Moffett twitted it. Maybe he was the one that made it up. Maybe RRW?

in this debacle, nothing would surprise me, particularly where ERC are concerned.

but given that all ERC monies go thru WRU to RRW the above would be slightly surprising, and would require the cooperation of Dodgy Lewis to keep the regions impoverished.... 

quinsforever wrote:in this debacle, nothing would surprise me, particularly where ERC are concerned.

but given that all ERC monies go thru WRU to RRW the above would be slightly surprising, and would require the cooperation of Dodgy Lewis to keep the regions impoverished.... 

I would say next to impossible, rather than slightly surprising. The poor regions need that £800k to pay their players this week   

Some business men they are. Anywho....their players must be really cheap if £800k can pay a months salary to four regions  

Munchkin - there are no hard facts for HEC or Pro-X (how many teams?). There is a deal for a 16 team cup, assume with English, on the table waiting to be signed. Bird in the hand and all that.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin - there are no hard facts for HEC or Pro-X (how many teams?).  There is a deal for a 16 team cup, assume with English, on the table waiting to be signed. Bird in the hand and all that.

Pie in the sky, I say   

It's hilarious that the regions are complaining that they can't sign up because they don't know the competition details. They are the ones preventing that from happening. Not WRU.

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin - there are no hard facts for HEC or Pro-X (how many teams?).  There is a deal for a 16 team cup, assume with English, on the table waiting to be signed. Bird in the hand and all that.

Pie in the sky, I say   

It's hilarious that the regions are complaining that they can't sign up because they don't know the competition details. They are the ones preventing that from happening. Not WRU.

How does that work then? The regions are not the ones who negotiate the deals. They have been asking for details, and get none. And the regions were not the ones who decided to start a bidding war with the union to keep welsh players. Nor the ones who make statements about where players WILL play before checking first, like WRUburton farce.

Anyhow bored of going round in circles, let's just give it 48-72 hours and then see what is what.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin - there are no hard facts for HEC or Pro-X (how many teams?).  There is a deal for a 16 team cup, assume with English, on the table waiting to be signed. Bird in the hand and all that.

Pie in the sky, I say   

It's hilarious that the regions are complaining that they can't sign up because they don't know the competition details. They are the ones preventing that from happening. Not WRU.

How does that work then?  The regions are not the ones who negotiate the deals.  They have been asking for details, and get none.  And the regions were not the ones who decided to start a bidding war with the union to keep welsh players.  Nor the ones who make statements about where players WILL play before checking first, like WRUburton farce.

Anyhow bored of going round in circles, let's just give it 48-72 hours and then see what is what.

What the regions have been saying is that they haven't been informed as to what competitions they are to be entered into next season. They already know the WRU position on this - HEC and Rabo. Now, they are the guys threatening no HEC, and no Rabo, unless they get what the want with regards to the PA. So, from an WRU perspective, how can they (WRU) provide details to RRW about any competition until the RRW commit? They can't.
The RRW are talking nonsense. The sticking point isn't one of competition details. It is one of agreeing to the PA, and quite possibly the biggest issue there for them, the biggest sticking point, is the issue of central contracts.
The RRW are basically attempting to claim that central contracts discussions can be put on hold until they first deal with competition details. It's a 'cart before the horse' thing. What they're trying to do is avoid agreeing to central contracts whilst shifting blame to WRU.