What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales
 

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

So much has been released today I don't know where everything is at. All i've gathered is that more money is available and that's great. If we can trust the WRU then I hope this proves to be one small step in the right direction.
Don;t know where this money has come form though and why it wasn't available to them a few months ago before John f**king signed for Clermont  
It's like a game of chess really and I think the WRU have just made a good move because it is going to make the regions consider a few things.

Munckin, think its more chicken or egg, than cart before horse. Both are to blame, and both are also right. Just depends on point of view/spin to who people see as the worst of the two. And to be honest if I were Irish or Scottish I probably would blame the regions, but being welsh, and knowing what the alternative is, should the regions cave, I can't help but blame Roger Lewis, and Dai Moffett to a point too.

Jhamer, yeah losing Foxy before the union decided to even offer help has tainted my feelings on the issue too.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munckin, think its more chicken or egg, than cart before horse.  Both are to blame, and both are also right.  Just depends on point of view/spin to who people see as the worst of the two.  And to be honest if I were Irish or Scottish I probably would blame the regions, but being welsh, and knowing what the alternative is, should the regions cave, I can't help but blame Roger Lewis, and Dai Moffett to a point too.

Yep, Moffett has played his part in all this mess. The WRU and the Regions want different things. It's Union Vs Club, as with PRL and the HEC, and so the fans on either side want different outcomes. Never the twain shall meet, methinks. Compromise perhaps, whatever that means, but for how long?

"Both are to blame, and both are also right.  Just depends on point of view/spin to who people see as the worst of the two."

I agree with the above entirely. It's all a matter of perspective.   

If I am honest I have given up listening or reading pretty much anything that comes out form either side at the moment, it just makes me feel so angry and annoyed.

Neither are putting out anyhting new or anything constructive it just seems the same old drivel with each side trying to score points of the other and trying to cander favouritism with others.

Just remembered here is the letter from RRW to all clubs

http://www.regionalrugbywales.com/uploads/2014016-Letter_to_Clubs.pdf

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munckin, think its more chicken or egg, than cart before horse.  Both are to blame, and both are also right.  Just depends on point of view/spin to who people see as the worst of the two.  And to be honest if I were Irish or Scottish I probably would blame the regions, but being welsh, and knowing what the alternative is, should the regions cave, I can't help but blame Roger Lewis, and Dai Moffett to a point too.

I think that's probably a fair summation, Spidey, with patience wearing thin on all sides - I'm sure to Welsh fans it's an intra-country battle for control, but the ramifications will undoubtedly affect the whole game in the NH, so on that basis, everyone is an interested party!

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Munchkin wrote:The regions have now reversed their decision on staying shtum on CCs....:

"As concluded by PWC, the Regions do not believe a central contract structure alone is the answer to the challenges facing the professional game in Wales today or in the future – there is a much wider picture and more pressing issues to address.
Over the entire time of options being tabled, the WRU has resolutely refused to undertake any discussion, of any option, beyond the absolute conditions that the cost of any National Contract must be deducted from the Region’s existing income; and that the Regions must agree to sign the extension option to the previous Participation Agreement.
The Regions therefore cannot understand how, or why, the WRU have now completely reversed their stance in just weeks.
"

So have I got this right; the initial "offer" meant that the costs of any CCs would be deducted from the £6m to the regions?

You have it right if the regions claim is true. I did read an article recently in which it's claimed that the WRU, and the regions were near agreement on dual contracts. Both the regions, and WRU, would then commit to pay player wages. Apparently that went to the wall as the fight over signing the PA escalated.

Had more strings attached than the Royal fecking Philharmonic.....probably.

The point is that the regions were near to agreement on dual contracting. It isn't that they were resisting due to WRU conditions. I think it's true that WRU want control, or at least greater control, of the regions in return for an increase in funding.

Isn't this a big part of the problem in that the WRU have too much control as it is?
Andrew Hore alluded to this 3 years ago with regards to the regions' being involved in the community game. The WRU said no.
Then recently we had that story in the Fail asking the clubs "what have the regions ever done for us?".
The WRU said no to the Ospreys/Tonga game too, which I thought i'd mention.

I don't it's about someone having too much or too little control. The probably is the union and regions are working together.

The Regions (at least the Ospreys and I imagine all of them) want to be involved more in the community rugby in their area, to gather interest in the region, but the WRU say they can't. The regions then get slated for not doing enough in their regions to build interest.

But aside to that, unless I'm mistaken, the WRU don't want to let the Regions 'take over' community rugby as independent bodies.

What really needs to happen (if the regions are to continue) is for the WRU and RRW to implement the PWC report reccomendations, which is to have a proper PRGB. Now it sounds like the WRU didn't like the previous incarnation as they couldn't just do what they want, but that's from the Regional mouths. What it really needs is the formation of Regional boards which the WRU/Region makes up and that controls community rugby within that Region.

A bit of symbiosis (sp?)

HammerofThunor wrote:I don't it's about someone having too much or too little control. The probably is the union and regions are working together.

The Regions (at least the Ospreys and I imagine all of them) want to be involved more in the community rugby in their area, to gather interest in the region, but the WRU say they can't.  The regions then get slated for not doing enough in their regions to build interest.

But aside to that, unless I'm mistaken, the WRU don't want to let the Regions 'take over' community rugby as independent bodies.

What really needs to happen (if the regions are to continue) is for the WRU and RRW to implement the PWC report reccomendations, which is to have a proper PRGB.  Now it sounds like the WRU didn't like the previous incarnation as they couldn't just do what they want, but that's from the Regional mouths. What it really needs is the formation of Regional boards which the WRU/Region makes up and that controls community rugby within that Region.

A bit of symbiosis (sp?)

Collaboration then. It might just work.

From the recent WRU statement;

"If the necessary negotiations are completed and the National Contract formula is secured in a new Rugby Services Agreement,...."

So what is this formula and what are the details?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Lookout, it's raining cash in Cardiff all of a sudden.
Derwyn will be swinging his pants reading this.

30 Jan 2014 20:00
"WRU make extra £2m available to give more Wales stars central contracts"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-make-extra-2million-available-6650703

Funny how they can find money suddenly!  Shame they can't seem to do the most important thing an just work out what competitions they want us in.  No point contracting players when its possibly only a pro10 for next season.

Must be a miracle I suppose.
Not sure though how a one off windfall is going to fix anything much, but there we are.

the £2 Million is from 'sponsors' who want to see wales players retained. Will this extra £2 Million be every year then Roger or just right now?

gcBlues wrote:the £2 Million is from 'sponsors' who want to see wales players retained. Will this extra £2 Million be every year then Roger or just right now?

It's a one off, of which £810,000 has just been taken up by Sam Warburton.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

gcBlues wrote:the £2 Million is from 'sponsors' who want to see wales players retained. Will this extra £2 Million be every year then Roger or just right now?

It's a one off, of which £810,000 has just been taken up by Sam Warburton.

Oh dear. So enough left maybe for a "key" player and another not so "key" player.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

gcBlues wrote:the £2 Million is from 'sponsors' who want to see wales players retained. Will this extra £2 Million be every year then Roger or just right now?

It's a one off, of which £810,000 has just been taken up by Sam Warburton.

Oh dear. So enough left maybe for a "key" player and another not so "key" player.

So I'm led to believe. If they do 3 year contracts like Warburton's.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

Chunky Norwich wrote:

gcBlues wrote:the £2 Million is from 'sponsors' who want to see wales players retained. Will this extra £2 Million be every year then Roger or just right now?

It's a one off, of which £810,000 has just been taken up by Sam Warburton.

Oh dear. So enough left maybe for a "key" player and another not so "key" player.

So I'm led to believe. If they do 3 year contracts like Warburton's.

So how on earth did they think they could contract 6 players using only £1m when it looks like £2m will only get 3 players.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

So how on earth did they think they could contract 6 players using only £1m when it looks like £2m will only get 3 players.

They didn't. It's all about the PR excercise. Get 3 on the books. It's a start.

What a way to structure your pro rugby model.

Wasn't the £1M each year whereas the £2M is a one off? So over three years there would be £3M, not £1M.

HammerofThunor wrote:Wasn't the £1M each year

no.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/23072439

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-announce-1m-cash-boost-4720006

Not to worry. Big announcements planned for today! We should be all clearer what's a happenin' to our rugby teams next year in a few short hours.

..........................................................

Ok, yeah. It was cowpat

SecretFly wrote:.  Big announcements planned for today! .

Are there? What time?

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:.  Big announcements planned for today! .

Are there? What time?

It was rumoured that the AW thing was going to announced as a done thing today (assuming the PA wouldn't be signed in Wales, which it won't be). Personally think it's bull but they might say they're actively looking to do it.

HammerofThunor wrote:

It was rumoured that the AW thing was going to announced as a done thing today (assuming the PA wouldn't be signed in Wales, which it won't be). Personally think it's bull but they might say they're actively looking to do it.

Deadline is today but I wouldn't necessarily expect an announcement just because Peter Jackson said so.

You might be right though. I hope you are.

SecretFly wrote:Not to worry.  Big announcements planned for today!  We should be all clearer what's a happenin' to our rugby teams next year in a few short hours.

..........................................................

Reading the email from the Scarlets, it looked like you were right about the future possibly being sorted out already. 16 Team Cup competition, which will not be detrimental to the Scottish or Irish, I believe is how the email worded the offer on the table.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Not to worry.  Big announcements planned for today!  We should be all clearer what's a happenin' to our rugby teams next year in a few short hours.

..........................................................

Reading the email from the Scarlets, it looked like you were right about the future possibly being sorted out already.  16 Team Cup competition, which will not be detrimental to the Scottish or Irish, I believe is how the email worded the offer on the table.

And league?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Not to worry.  Big announcements planned for today!  We should be all clearer what's a happenin' to our rugby teams next year in a few short hours.

..........................................................

Reading the email from the Scarlets, it looked like you were right about the future possibly being sorted out already.  16 Team Cup competition, which will not be detrimental to the Scottish or Irish, I believe is how the email worded the offer on the table.

So the Regions would stay in Pro12 - but they'd play their European time in a 16 team cup competition with the English - as the Irish, Scots and Italians played in the Euro contest planned for in the absence of the English?

Fly the quote was
 

http://www.regionalrugbywales.com/uploads/2014016-Letter_to_Clubs.pdf wrote:Following two months of hard work, the Regions now have a committed option for a cup competition that will bring an additional guaranteed £12m into Welsh rugby over the next 3 years, whilst also protecting the position of the Irish and Scottish clubs.

and the email version, which I can't copy and paste from (its a bleeding jpeg,cheap or what) said it was a 16 team Cup, so it could be a case of we go to the RCC, with the English, and the rest go to the HEC (who are robbing stewards   ). It seems that way we can stay in the Rabo but also earn a bit extra on the side.

SecretFly wrote:Not to worry.  Big announcements planned for today!  We should be all clearer what's a happenin' to our rugby teams next year in a few short hours.

With or without bullet points?

Cardiff Dave wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Not to worry.  Big announcements planned for today!  We should be all clearer what's a happenin' to our rugby teams next year in a few short hours.

With or without bullet points?

Negotiations on the bullet point positions should take another six months - easily.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly the quote was
 

http://www.regionalrugbywales.com/uploads/2014016-Letter_to_Clubs.pdf wrote:Following two months of hard work, the Regions now have a committed option for a cup competition that will bring an additional guaranteed £12m into Welsh rugby over the next 3 years, whilst also protecting the position of the Irish and Scottish clubs.

and the email version, which I can't copy and paste from (its a bleeding jpeg,cheap or what) said it was a 16 team Cup, so it could be a case of we go to the RCC, with the English, and the rest go to the HEC (who are robbing stewards   ).  It seems that way we can stay in the Rabo but also earn a bit extra on the side.

That's roughly about 4 million per year? Divided four ways? An extra 1 million per year per Region for three years? I'm just curious then, do you or does anyone know what was Regional rugby making each year from the HEC/Amlin thing?

SecretFly wrote:  I'm just curious then, do you or does anyone know what was Regional rugby making each year from the HEC/Amlin thing?

Welsh regions got £1.1m each

Chunky Norwich wrote:

SecretFly wrote:  I'm just curious then, do you or does anyone know what was Regional rugby making each year from the HEC/Amlin thing?

Welsh regions got £1.1m each

So? There or thereabouts with the new (projected) AngloWelsh cup? It seems a little bit of an overly bruising battle (between WRU and Regions) to come in with something new that isn't so new on the figures levels.

The statement was an 'additional' £12M so you'd think it would be £2M each. But who the **** knows. It's like pinning down the Riddler. Each word carefully weighted to not be an outright lie.

HammerofThunor wrote:The statement was an 'additional' £12M so you'd think it would be £2M each. But who the **** knows. It's like pinning down the Riddler. Each word carefully weighted to not be an outright lie.

sounds like one of GE's OPs.  

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Lookout, it's raining cash in Cardiff all of a sudden.
Derwyn will be swinging his pants reading this.

30 Jan 2014 20:00
"WRU make extra £2m available to give more Wales stars central contracts"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/wru-make-extra-2million-available-6650703

Funny how they can find money suddenly!  Shame they can't seem to do the most important thing an just work out what competitions they want us in.  No point contracting players when its possibly only a pro10 for next season.

Sorry but I have to defend Roger on this one. He stated on live TV on scrum v that more money is available providing they can come to better agreements.

Also this 2 million refers directly to money that is not coming from WRU coffers but from other commercial 3rd parties to secure top talent playing in Wales. If therefore other sponsors are primarily using their cash you cant use that as an argument that all of a sudden the WRU have more money than they are reporting.

But like I said Roger has already stated they can find more money providing they also get some of their demands met. I'm assuming similar deals such as the Ospreys signing yet another Fijian is the crux of the matter. The WRU didn't want to allow 6 foreigners per region in the first place. They want to see a greater section of regional 15's starting teams to be welsh and not foreign project players. It does nothing for Wales if the WRU pay the regions extra money and they continue to sign non welsh players at will. Bottom line I think the WRU would prefer the foreign allotment to be reduced even further. Granted the regions media machine will tell you that success at regional level cannot be attained without foreigners (a point I do not agree with). At the end of the day the WRU should receive something back if they are going to put more money on the table. Every coin has 2 sides.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munchkin - there are no hard facts for HEC or Pro-X (how many teams?).  There is a deal for a 16 team cup, assume with English, on the table waiting to be signed. Bird in the hand and all that.

Pie in the sky, I say   

It's hilarious that the regions are complaining that they can't sign up because they don't know the competition details. They are the ones preventing that from happening. Not WRU.

How does that work then?  The regions are not the ones who negotiate the deals.  They have been asking for details, and get none.  And the regions were not the ones who decided to start a bidding war with the union to keep welsh players.  Nor the ones who make statements about where players WILL play before checking first, like WRUburton farce.

Anyhow bored of going round in circles, let's just give it 48-72 hours and then see what is what.

I'm sorry if this feels like im picking on you but I have to say as a Scarlets fan you cannot really point the finger at the Warburton saga. If by contrast we look at North with the Scarlets for example (you sold him as prior to his contract expiring just to turn a quick buck) and given North himself has gone on record stating how the Scarlets where never interested in securing his services upon expiry of the contract, it is clear to see that the Regions have handled a lot of the deals in self interest. The WRU have come in to stop this trend of players not having any options about plying their trade. Had they done it sooner, we may actually still have North playing in Wales because the money Northampton are paying him isn't actually that much (reported at 250K per year) given his stature in the game. Bottom line the Scarlets illustrated exactly why it is imperative they step in because they do not want to see international players destinies to be decided only by the regional management who only ever act in their own best interests.

The issue regarding central contracts is only being moaned about by them because they see it as a potential treat if the WRU reduce their funding in the long term. However if they can agree funding will remain the same regardless of central contracts then the regions are not losing out. The only issue then for RRW is using another excuse for lack of success the regions provide because of them paying international players for half a years performance for the regions, as they don't pay them.

Welshmushroom wrote:

I'm sorry if this feels like im picking on you but I have to say as a Scarlets fan you cannot really point the finger at the Warburton saga.  If by contrast we look at North with the Scarlets for example (you sold him as prior to his contract expiring just to turn a quick buck) and given North himself has gone on record stating how the Scarlets where never interested in securing his services upon expiry of the contract, it is clear to see that the Regions have handled a lot of the deals in self interest.

The Scarlets offerred him a contract. North refused.

The WRU have come in to stop this trend of players not having any options about plying their trade.  Had they done it sooner, we may actually still have North playing in Wales because the money Northampton are paying him isn't actually that much (reported at 250K per year) given his stature in the game.  Bottom line the Scarlets illustrated exactly why it is imperative they step in because they do not want to see international players destinies to be decided only by the regional management who only ever act in their own best interests.

Yes, the WRU offered to step in, pay for North. And place the bloke at another team.

Awesome deal that was.

The issue regarding central contracts is only being moaned about by them because they see it as a potential treat if the WRU reduce their funding in the long term.  However if they can agree funding will remain the same regardless of central contracts then the regions are not losing out.  The only issue then for RRW is using another excuse for lack of success the regions provide because of them paying international players for half a years performance for the regions, as they don't pay them.

There are loads more issues. Like the one above.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munckin, think its more chicken or egg, than cart before horse.  Both are to blame, and both are also right.  Just depends on point of view/spin to who people see as the worst of the two.  And to be honest if I were Irish or Scottish I probably would blame the regions, but being welsh, and knowing what the alternative is, should the regions cave, I can't help but blame Roger Lewis, and Dai Moffett to a point too.

I think that's probably a fair summation, Spidey, with patience wearing thin on all sides - I'm sure to Welsh fans it's an intra-country battle for control, but the ramifications will undoubtedly affect the whole game in the NH, so on that basis, everyone is an interested party!

But in a way some of these issues have been far more than just the Regions vs WRU. Regarding central contracts for example with the WRU picking off Warburton, isn't that exactly the same thing that has been going on at the regions for years. They compete and inflate their own salaries by trying to sign other regions talent. The Dragons and Scarlets have been at the bottom end of that cycle over the last 10 years and lost players to the Blues and Ospreys based on better offers. Shouldn't regions be focusing on filling their holes with talent from within the region and not poaching developed players from other regions? This runs further down the chain at Premiership level as well and deep into lower divisions too.

So the real crux of that matter is how to resolve the initial issue and not focusing primarily on the spat between Central and non central contracts.

But I agree with everyone's sentiment here that I too am getting sick of both sides constant scrambling for support from the public given that neither side is right or wrong in this argument. I just hope they can find some middle ground and actually start working together instead of against each other (which both sides are to blame for).

Welshmushroom wrote:

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Munckin, think its more chicken or egg, than cart before horse.  Both are to blame, and both are also right.  Just depends on point of view/spin to who people see as the worst of the two.  And to be honest if I were Irish or Scottish I probably would blame the regions, but being welsh, and knowing what the alternative is, should the regions cave, I can't help but blame Roger Lewis, and Dai Moffett to a point too.

I think that's probably a fair summation, Spidey, with patience wearing thin on all sides - I'm sure to Welsh fans it's an intra-country battle for control, but the ramifications will undoubtedly affect the whole game in the NH, so on that basis, everyone is an interested party!

But in a way some of these issues have been far more than just the Regions vs WRU.  Regarding central contracts for example with the WRU picking off Warburton, isn't that exactly the same thing that has been going on at the regions for years.  They compete and inflate their own salaries by trying to sign other regions talent.  The Dragons and Scarlets have been at the bottom end of that cycle over the last 10 years and lost players to the Blues and Ospreys based on better offers.  Shouldn't regions be focusing on filling their holes with talent from within the region and not poaching developed players from other regions?  This runs further down the chain at Premiership level as well and deep into lower divisions too.

So the real crux of that matter is how to resolve the initial issue and not focusing primarily on the spat between Central and non central contracts.  

But I agree with everyone's sentiment here that I too am getting sick of both sides constant scrambling for support from the public given that neither side is right or wrong in this argument.  I just hope they can find some middle ground and actually start working together instead of against each other (which both sides are to blame for).

Are you for real? You think a central contract is the same as the Ospreys signing Lee Byrne from the Scarlets?

Honestly?

you can't be half pregnant.

Regions need to be much more in charge of their destinies. Or the WRU needs to buy out the sponsors of the regions and fold the regions into the WRU a-la irish model.

has to be one or the other because this conniving strangulation of the regions by a music man is hugely embarrassing.

if the regions are so bad and so badly run, then the WRU should let them have their heads and restructure the whole mess once they blow themselves up. WRU cant claim the regions are so badly run while not actually letting them be involved in the somewhat important things like TV rights, competitions and sponsorship.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

The Scarlets offerred him a contract. North refused.

Yep - and by North's statement the offer was a low one as they justified that he was away with Wales 6 months of the year. Basically an offer they already knew he wasn't able to accept but enough for them to state they had made him an offer and couldn't afford him. Yet 12 months on and ironically they have enough money to sign Regan who apparently has signed for a fair old sum.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Yes, the WRU offered to step in, pay for North. And place the bloke at another team.

Awesome deal that was.

Yep so instead they sell him for 150K just so they get some short term finance and see him head away from Wales. Its interesting that by contrast they didn't do the same with all the other players who seem to leave for other regions on better contracts (such as Turnbull, Byrne and other targeted players), just because they know they will eventually lose them. Can you provide any evidence to support the WRU stated North would be playing elsewhere? I have it on good authority that deal you are talking about actually stated that he would remain at the Scarlets but be paid by the WRU. If you can support your claim with evidence I would like to see it.

Chunky Norwich wrote:
There are loads more issues. Like the one above.

I think we are all aware of that but as I pointed out these issues are not just Regions vs WRU debates but centre around the entire games current pathways.

Mushroom, I know your not targeting the Scarlets (or me their designated gob-shoite on here), you just have an alternative view point, and to be honest it is nice to see that there are some regional fans that agree with the union, and it isn't all of us that are making Roger Lewis effigies for bonfire night    

Out of interest have you been watching The Scarlets on BBC, if not I would recommend watching the 2nd episode on I-Player, it is pretty much the George North Saga. He was offered a contract, and it was not accepted. The French had contacted us the year before he went with an offer for him, and then contacted us the following season with a far larger amount. Seeing as George wanted more than we could afford the simple answer was letting him go, and being able to fund the likes of Foxy, Rhys and Scott when their contract renewals came up (sadly it didn't help with Foxy, and nor did the union).

The union in all their caring, made big noises about not wanting George to go, but then offered to contract him centrally to the Blues! That is far from being a level handed and fair governing body, "Sorry you can't afford to keep hold of this player who is probably the best in the world right now, but don't worry we will pay his wages.........but move him to a rival region".

I have said many times now, and it is getting boring, my main issue with the centralised contract are the fact they have decided to bring them in mid-way through a season, players like Halfpenny, Foxy, Hibbard, Ianto, Bradley etc, were already deep in negotiations with other teams by the time the union decided to actually go ahead with them. They should have either brought them in at the start of the season, or waited until the end of the season, let the players know that they were going to be coming for the end of the 14/15 season. Then Foxy and Co. may have signed a 1yr extension, knowing the ccs would be sorted out by the end of that, and if not then gone to France/England.

Truth be told, even if the WRU now came out and said they would fully find the regions, pay for all the squads wages, and reduce ticket prices to the matches to 50p a game, I would probably still be sitting here questioning their motives. This time most years, I am bubbling with excitement about a new 6 Nations tournament, but this season I am struggling to get excited. I know it is a really sad place to be, but that is unfortunately what this whole farce (and like you say going back to North, and earlier) has done to me. And likewise I think if you look around the tinterweb you will see there are people very similar to me, but on the other side of the fence. Both RRW and the WRU have managed undo all the hard work that has been done over the last ten years, and leave us in a worse place (fans emotions, backstabbing, distrust) than before regionalism came about.

[quote="Welshmushroom"]

Yep - and by North's statement the offer was a low one as they justified that he was away with Wales 6 months of the year.  Basically an offer they already knew he wasn't able to accept but enough for them to state they had made him an offer and couldn't afford him.  Yet 12 months on and ironically they have enough money to sign Regan who apparently has signed for a fair old sum.

[quote]

We'll presumable North's very own transfer fee and Jonathan Davies money might have helped ?

Yep so instead they sell him for 150K just so they get some short term finance and see him head away from Wales.

Well of course. Why wouldn't you? They are fighting to survive. This isn't charity.

Its interesting that by contrast they didn't do the same with all the other players who seem to leave for other regions on better contracts (such as Turnbull, Byrne and other targeted players), just because they know they will eventually lose them.

No idea what you mean here.

Can you provide any evidence to support the WRU stated North would be playing elsewhere?  I have it on good authority that deal you are talking about actually stated that he would remain at the Scarlets but be paid by the WRU.  If you can support your claim with evidence I would like to see it.

It's not in the public domain. Just like your claim that eh would be placed at the Scarlets isn't.

i'm sure its been mentioned, but i'm sure team morale and cohesion must be impacted by WRUburton signing CC, no?

Especially when it's AWJ who is captaining the side this weekend and he turned a CC down!

this can only be a negative. at best, no impact. more likely, a bit of a morale sapper.

Welshmushroom wrote:Regarding central contracts for example with the WRU picking off Warburton, isn't that exactly the same thing that has been going on at the regions for years.  They compete and inflate their own salaries by trying to sign other regions talent.  The Dragons and Scarlets have been at the bottom end of that cycle over the last 10 years and lost players to the Blues and Ospreys based on better offers.  

I agree totally with what your saying, but then I you have to replace players leaving for foreign climes, or retiring, from somewhere. Academies are great, but not every academy is going to churn out players for each position, taking our academy for an example, we have been churning out hookers pretty much well of late Owens, and Phillips being capped, and now Myhill Snr. and Myhill Jnr. too and centres Gavin Evans, Jon Davies, Scott Williams and Adam Warren all capped, with numerous in the under-20s too, but have failed to really bring through any locks. The Ospreys on the other hand have been firing out locks and fly halves, but have not produced any decent centre. So because of the NWQ quota (which your against), we turn to look at each other and try to get hold of Welsh lads. Otherwise what is the alternative? Throwing in players who are just not good enough, and quite possibly never will be.

HOW TO FIX THE RRW / WRU

- Joint contracts, paid 50-50 by regions and union, for top 20-30 players. Same release clauses as they currently have. The 'new sponsorship' deal will cover this for the union, they need find no extra cash

- Regions continue in the Rabo, but play in the RCC too. But the Rabo is structured so we do not play during international windows (bar the 4th AI)

- A detailed and structured loan system to be in place. IF required due, to injury crisis for example, a region can loan a player from another region for a 2-3 months. This would mean the regions should be able to run on smaller squads, and have less NWQ

- bullet points are banned from all official releases from both sides

- both Roger Lewis and Stuart Gallagher retire from rugby immediately.

Chunky Norwich wrote:

Are you for real? You think a central contract is the same as the Ospreys signing Lee Byrne from the Scarlets?

Honestly?

Your clearly are not following my argument I see.  My point is that if the Scarlets where treating both scenarios purely based on maximum return they would have sold Turnbull and Byrne prior to their contracts expiring.  They key difference however is that North is a current international  and was treated differently by the Scarlets.  Their argument was that he was leaving anyway so wanted to get some return.  So why is this acceptable for a current international but not for fringe players (as Byrne only featured heavily for Wales once at the Ospreys) to receive an early proceed for a early termination.   The point I am making is that if a player becomes unviable for a team long term should not all decisions be made consistently? Seems unfair to suggest that you cannot compete with another offer and sell him early to a team outside of Wales but then not do the same with non international players.  

Also just to point out your comment above "You think a central contract is the same as the Ospreys signing Lee Byrne from the Scarlets?"

Well yes in essence because neither player is being paid or controlled by the Scarlets.  The loss of a player regardless of the sources is essentially the same.

Mushroom - the key difference between North and Byrne (Turnbull has not left yet), is that with North we had received an offer to buy him twice from the French, and nobody offered to buy Byrne. I am pretty sure if we knew we were going to lose him, and money was on offer we would have taken it. Truth is nobody wanted to buy Byrne, just to pick him up for free.