What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case? It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

by Welshmushroom Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:12 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:Regarding central contracts for example with the WRU picking off Warburton, isn't that exactly the same thing that has been going on at the regions for years. They compete and inflate their own salaries by trying to sign other regions talent. The Dragons and Scarlets have been at the bottom end of that cycle over the last 10 years and lost players to the Blues and Ospreys based on better offers.

I agree totally with what your saying, but then I you have to replace players leaving for foreign climes, or retiring, from somewhere. Academies are great, but not every academy is going to churn out players for each position, taking our academy for an example, we have been churning out hookers pretty much well of late Owens, and Phillips being capped, and now Myhill Snr. and Myhill Jnr. too and centres Gavin Evans, Jon Davies, Scott Williams and Adam Warren all capped, with numerous in the under-20s too, but have failed to really bring through any locks. The Ospreys on the other hand have been firing out locks and fly halves, but have not produced any decent centre. So because of the NWQ quota (which your against), we turn to look at each other and try to get hold of Welsh lads. Otherwise what is the alternative? Throwing in players who are just not good enough, and quite possibly never will be.

nice post - but isn't that in essence the real issue? Why are we looking for talent from abroad? Are our academies not functioning fully for the purpose they where developed? I'm the first to admit the talent having come through the first batch of academy players is impressive but that we do lack in certain positions. But without long term planning how can certain positions weakness be resolved. Signing a foreigner only weakens that principle further because assuming the regions continue to sign players from abroad in areas of weakness, how will the younger generation of locks develop if they receive limit game time? I think we all agree not every youth player is cut out for pro rugby but by filling gaps are we not denying opportunities to youngsters who should be getting chances even if not successful? Players like AW Jones and Ian Evans would never have had the opportunity to develop had the Ospreys not persisted with their development and playing them regularly in the Pro12 in their early 20's. I guess the real issue then becomes are our academies working with youth that actually is not capable of stepping up and should they be playing at that level or even being developed to begin with? For me experience players a big key here and a lot of the people who have succeeded have directly benefited from game time. For example I would be the first to admit I did not think Phillips was a good enough for Pro 12 rugby a couple of seasons ago. However given his form this year I would retract that statement. So the benefits of actually playing matches is there for all to see.

by Guest Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:16 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Munchkin wrote:The regions have now reversed their decision on staying shtum on CCs....:

"As concluded by PWC, the Regions do not believe a central contract structure alone is the answer to the challenges facing the professional game in Wales today or in the future – there is a much wider picture and more pressing issues to address.
Over the entire time of options being tabled, the WRU has resolutely refused to undertake any discussion, of any option, beyond the absolute conditions that the cost of any National Contract must be deducted from the Region’s existing income; and that the Regions must agree to sign the extension option to the previous Participation Agreement.
The Regions therefore cannot understand how, or why, the WRU have now completely reversed their stance in just weeks.
"

So have I got this right; the initial "offer" meant that the costs of any CCs would be deducted from the £6m to the regions?

You have it right if the regions claim is true. I did read an article recently in which it's claimed that the WRU, and the regions were near agreement on dual contracts. Both the regions, and WRU, would then commit to pay player wages. Apparently that went to the wall as the fight over signing the PA escalated.

Had more strings attached than the Royal fecking Philharmonic.....probably.

The point is that the regions were near to agreement on dual contracting. It isn't that they were resisting due to WRU conditions. I think it's true that WRU want control, or at least greater control, of the regions in return for an increase in funding.

Isn't this a big part of the problem in that the WRU have too much control as it is?
Andrew Hore alluded to this 3 years ago with regards to the regions' being involved in the community game. The WRU said no.
Then recently we had that story in the Fail asking the clubs "what have the regions ever done for us?".
The WRU said no to the Ospreys/Tonga game too, which I thought i'd mention.

Yes, I remember reading about conflict over the community game, and the Tonga match. Can't remember the details though. I can understand WRU not sanctioning the Regions arranging games against national sides, and preventing them have more influence in the grass roots of Welsh rugby. Without having to get into the rights or wrongs of their actions, it is about WRU control of the game in Wales, and their protecting it from region influence. Whether you believe that right or wrong depends on which side of the fence you stand.
Finding a workable solution that enables both to work together without one having to fear the other is proving near impossible. The WRU and privately owned Regions was a marriage of convenience, and one that may yet end up in divorce. At this point in time divorce may prove too expensive for WRU, and so an uneasy compromise might be the only solution. For now anyway.
RRW have the most to lose in all this, and PRL must be delighted that all attention is now deflected away from them as the Welsh infighting intensifies.

by Welshmushroom Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:17 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Mushroom - the key difference between North and Byrne (Turnbull has not left yet), is that with North we had received an offer to buy him twice from the French, and nobody offered to buy Byrne. I am pretty sure if we knew we were going to lose him, and money was on offer we would have taken it. Truth is nobody wanted to buy Byrne, just to pick him up for free.

Actually that's not true. It was common knowledge (even acknowledged by North on his recent interview) that the Scarlets actively chased offers for North. In fact prior to the Northampton deal they had already contacted a core of French teams who didn't want to sign him for a release fee. Northampton where the only ones who were prepared to pay a transfer fee. They did this because they knew in an open bidding war they would not compete with the standard offers the French would put down so it was a way of signing a player they had no other chance of signing.

Would Byrne have had similar clubs chasing him if they knew they could buy him out early without actually having bigger sides coming in for him? In my opinion yes (but that's conjecture) as the Scarlets didn't make it known they wanted to sell him unlike the North instance.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:24 pm

Mushroom, I think it is a balancing act with NWQ and youth. You need someone with experience to help bring the kids on, the Scarlets brought through so many centres, and most were in the academy and/or breaking into the team when Regan was running the show in the centre. He had the experience to help bring through the others.

And at the moment it seems having a few hard Saffers in our pack is really helping bring the forwards through too. Jake Ball has developed so much alongside Earle, but if he were alongside Lou Reed (who I actually rate) I don't think Jake would be anywhere near the welsh squad. We also have Carwyn and Llewellyn Jones, and another big lump of a teen (can't remember his name) are coming through the system at lock now, so I assume the likes of Earle and Snyman's presence is a gain to them, learning some tricks of the trade, and competing against high quality players for the shirt.

A loan system between regions is one answer, loan out youth players to other regions to cover injuries, let them gain experience. The Blues need a scrum half and fly half. The Scarlets have Cawdor, Rhodri and Aled Williams lets loan them one. The Ospreys have Biggar, Nipper and Davies Jnr. lets loan one of them out. And then the Blues could loan the Scarlets an openside, and loan the Ospreys a player they need (can't think of any) etc.

by Welshmushroom Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:25 pm

I think the Turnbull deal is virtually a done deal Scarletspiderman. Still to be confirmed though.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:31 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Mushroom - the key difference between North and Byrne (Turnbull has not left yet), is that with North we had received an offer to buy him twice from the French, and nobody offered to buy Byrne. I am pretty sure if we knew we were going to lose him, and money was on offer we would have taken it. Truth is nobody wanted to buy Byrne, just to pick him up for free.

Actually that's not true. It was common knowledge (even acknowledged by North on his recent interview) that the Scarlets actively chased offers for North. In fact prior to the Northampton deal they had already contacted a core of French teams who didn't want to sign him for a release fee. Northampton where the only ones who were prepared to pay a transfer fee. They did this because they knew in an open bidding war they would not compete with the standard offers the French would put down so it was a way of signing a player they had no other chance of signing.

Would Byrne have had similar clubs chasing him if they knew they could buy him out early without actually having bigger sides coming in for him? In my opinion yes (but that's conjecture) as the Scarlets didn't make it known they wanted to sell him unlike the North instance.

Can you prove that? Like I said watch The Scarlets Episode 2 on I-Player, and see the behind the scenes at PYS during the whole 'scandal', and then try to look at both sides, rather than just taking Roger's line on the regions being the devil. Mark Davies says that there had been an offer from the French to get George off us, and it was declined. Then the following season a larger, more substantial offer was tabled to us, and it was too large an amount not to take serious. That is the point at which North was informed of the situation.

So technically, yes we were in talks about selling him before he knew, but we did not start the talks, and they were totally unsolicited. In fact, George was made aware that of the French offer, the big one, almost as soon as the region were. Please watch the programme, you may feel differently afterwards.

Also didn't you just more or less agree with me, North went because people wanted to buy him, Byrne went for free because nobody wanted to buy him.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:31 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
I think the Turnbull deal is virtually a done deal Scarletspiderman. Still to be confirmed though.

But he's out of contract. Free to go wherever he wants. Why are you comparing him with North?

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:33 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:
I think the Turnbull deal is virtually a done deal Scarletspiderman. Still to be confirmed though.

Cawdor was a done deal too, just about crossing the T's and dotting the I's, and then before you know it he has renewed where he was. But I think Josh will go, and it is not as much a bidding war as wanting to be first team, and push for Wales.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:34 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
I think the Turnbull deal is virtually a done deal Scarletspiderman. Still to be confirmed though.

But he's out of contract. Free to go wherever he wants. Why are you comparing him with North?

We could have flogged him on end of last season, but didn't/couldn't because he was not in demand.

by Welshmushroom Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:39 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Mushroom, I think it is a balancing act with NWQ and youth. You need someone with experience to help bring the kids on, the Scarlets brought through so many centres, and most were in the academy and/or breaking into the team when Regan was running the show in the centre. He had the experience to help bring through the others.

And at the moment it seems having a few hard Saffers in our pack is really helping bring the forwards through too. Jake Ball has developed so much alongside Earle, but if he were alongside Lou Reed (who I actually rate) I don't think Jake would be anywhere near the welsh squad. We also have Carwyn and Llewellyn Jones, and another big lump of a teen (can't remember his name) are coming through the system at lock now, so I assume the likes of Earle and Snyman's presence is a gain to them, learning some tricks of the trade, and competing against high quality players for the shirt.

A loan system between regions is one answer, loan out youth players to other regions to cover injuries, let them gain experience. The Blues need a scrum half and fly half. The Scarlets have Cawdor, Rhodri and Aled Williams lets loan them one. The Ospreys have Biggar, Nipper and Davies Jnr. lets loan one of them out. And then the Blues could loan the Scarlets an openside, and loan the Ospreys a player they need (can't think of any) etc.

I agree that a loan system would be in the best interest of developing players. However this is where the regions have split views between themselves. Often the whole point from the Blues and Ospreys is to secure enough playing talent to make sure they finish above their rivals in the league. So they would rather see a player playing in the Premiership than releasing them to other regions. I understand why they do this, so those players cannot influence other rival regions performances. That said it is not in the interest of producing professional players to have a system where a team has plenty of cover and does not play youngsters, just to make sure that other regions do not have the resources to challenge them. This is a fundamental flaw as actually the whole point of regional rugby should be to see equal competitive sides (which is how the interest from fans is generated) and not creating one/two over dominating team(s). It might be good for the Ospreys to be a dominating force in Wales but my counter argument it hurts the other 3 regions more and as such affects the reputation of the league and potentially the interest from fans for those teams (which also includes sponsorship funding).

I believe that regions should be working together jointly to make sure they as a unit produce the best possible Pro12 product and develop enough talent between themselves so that Wales has enough selection possibilities as international level. Not only would that improve the reputation of the league it would also ensure that the sides each region fields in the Pro 12 is really the best available talent in Wales and not the current situation where teams have 2 or 3 of the best players in one position playing at one region.

by Chunky Norwich Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:41 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
I think the Turnbull deal is virtually a done deal Scarletspiderman. Still to be confirmed though.

But he's out of contract. Free to go wherever he wants. Why are you comparing him with North?

We could have flogged him on end of last season, but didn't/couldn't because he was not in demand.

Exactly. We did the same with Ben Morgan. But there was little furore over that.

Did Paul James get "sold" to Bath by the Ospreys? Or was it a mutual agreement like Hibbard to Gloucester?

by Welshmushroom Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:47 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:
I think the Turnbull deal is virtually a done deal Scarletspiderman. Still to be confirmed though.

But he's out of contract. Free to go wherever he wants. Why are you comparing him with North?

We could have flogged him on end of last season, but didn't/couldn't because he was not in demand.

Again its subjective because North was widely advertised as being available to buy out early over 2 years before his contract expired. In Turnbull's case they didn't want to release him early as he was featuring heavily for the side and they where hoping to keep him there longer. Had they in principle accepted they where not going to retain him past his current contract a small apportioned transfer fee probably wouldn't have hurt other sides. It's safe to say they couldn't have demanded 150K but for 50K a lot of the Premiership sides wouldn't even have blinked at that transfer fee to sign a player they could then make any offer too without anyone competing for his signature. Would he have then been in demand had the Scarlets made it widely known he was available for early release subject to a small transfer fee? Probably. But we will never know because they didn't treat the situation the same as was the case with North.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 2:47 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:I believe that regions should be working together jointly to make sure they as a unit produce the best possible Pro12 product and develop enough talent between themselves so that Wales has enough selection possibilities as international level. Not only would that improve the reputation of the league it would also ensure that the sides each region fields in the Pro 12 is really the best available talent in Wales and not the current situation where teams have 2 or 3 of the best players in one position playing at one region.

+1-ish. I have no problems with team having the top 2 in a position, if they belong there, that seems fair a starter and bencher who can rotate. But like a few years ago when the Ospreys had Marshal (NWQ), Phillips, and Webb at scrum half and then signed Liam Davies off the Scarlets too. Those are the iffy ones.

by Welshmushroom Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:19 pm

Chunky Norwich wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:

We could have flogged him on end of last season, but didn't/couldn't because he was not in demand.

Exactly. We did the same with Ben Morgan. But there was little furore over that.

No but then again Morgan was English not Welsh. His allegiance was with them. The issue of retaining Welsh playing talent and foreign playing talent is totally different. For example it seems strange to me that we where told the Scarlets couldn't afford North given Northampton ended up paying 250K for him per year, yet they had no problem shelling out the big bucks to secure Barclay and King (for next season). It sends mixed messages because apparently playing for Scotland and playing for a welsh region in wales seems to be more acceptable for regional rugby than having current welsh internationals on your books.

I'm not pointing the finger here either. I'm just illustrating that the Regions have as much inconsistency with their arguments as what is levelled at the WRU.

BTW im not knocking top quality signings. For me it will be a pleasure to see King and Barclay on a regular basis. I only have an issue when we are seeing NPC / Curry Cup standard players arrive on our shores. Because that's sending out the message that amateur players in the SH sides are better than our youth players which is a frightening admission of failure to develop your own players. I don't think I would be pointing the finger if the regions where securing top playing foreign talent as there is a merit for learning from those players. I don't accept that argument however when we are talking about part time players in South Africa & New Zealand.

by Welshmushroom Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:31 pm

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Welshmushroom wrote:I believe that regions should be working together jointly to make sure they as a unit produce the best possible Pro12 product and develop enough talent between themselves so that Wales has enough selection possibilities as international level. Not only would that improve the reputation of the league it would also ensure that the sides each region fields in the Pro 12 is really the best available talent in Wales and not the current situation where teams have 2 or 3 of the best players in one position playing at one region.

+1-ish. I have no problems with team having the top 2 in a position, if they belong there, that seems fair a starter and bencher who can rotate. But like a few years ago when the Ospreys had Marshal (NWQ), Phillips, and Webb at scrum half and then signed Liam Davies off the Scarlets too. Those are the iffy ones.

The issue for me is that if regional rugby really wants to work there has to be a draft system. The top 4 in every position in wales should be playing regular at welsh regions. If the top 4 are secured by 2 teams what is the purpose of the other 2 teams? I don't think anyone could argue strength in depth is important but it should be done that the other remaining top 5-8 players in that position act as backup support to those regions. As much as players learn about developing from learning from experienced players, nothing aids development better than actually playing regularly against the best. Its why New Zealand for example have a head start on us. They draft their best players around to make sure each of them is getting enough game time and to make sure that each of their provinces provides enough competition to the Super 15. You wont for example see New Zealand's top 2 in any position representing one province.

For me if anyone has any real international ambition they will learn more about themselves playing against their rivals in that position than being a backup to that player and rotating those players (which will only develop you so far). If we want a truly competitive league in the Pro 12, the lack of union from the regions with each other is a major setback to the league. Our aim should be to see 60 of our best players playing each week with the backup 60 being the next best talent in wales. Our current structure just serves to weaken welsh rugby.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:38 pm

Drafts are ok in theory, but the structure will need some major overhauls, the union part fund academies, the regions also put in varying amounts on top. So they will need a deal ensuring equal funding from regions to all academies in order to ensure nobody gets short changed, or cheap regions don't profit from the others. Also local lads at local regions bring in fans so assurance that say 75%+ get to stay at their home region would be important too. But if that was in place I am all for it.

by Welshmushroom Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:48 pm

The problem I see is that it wont happen. Both the Ospreys and Blues have major designs on being the strongest teams in Wales and don't want to level the playing field. I know the RRW is a unification of the regions but it's fair to say none of them want to see each other successful and put themselves as individual entities first in all other aspects. This is a fundamental flaw with benefactor based provinces.

It only works in New Zealand because they centrally contract. I don't for example see any working model happening as outlined above without the use of central contracts because the benefactors want to see their own teams dominate. Ironically I think it's what holding us back at regional level because if the teams in the Pro 12 are playing to a higher standard then it stands to reason we will probably be more successful in Europe.

Sadly though this will never happen which just illustrates why there is so much division in welsh rugby when we should all be unified.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 3:54 pm

No disrespect but the Blues are far off being second best, even third best, region. They haven't been up to much for a while. I don't see them as a threat. And the Ospreys, as much as I dislike them, have learn success comes easier building from within, with the odd addition, rather than splashing the cash. Realistically, there isn't much between us four, when we have fit squads that is.

by wayne Fri 31 Jan 2014, 4:13 pm

Welshmushroom wrote:The problem I see is that it wont happen. Both the Ospreys and Blues have major designs on being the strongest teams in Wales and don't want to level the playing field. I know the RRW is a unification of the regions but it's fair to say none of them want to see each other successful and put themselves as individual entities first in all other aspects. This is a fundamental flaw with benefactor based provinces.

It only works in New Zealand because they centrally contract. I don't for example see any working model happening as outlined above without the use of central contracts because the benefactors want to see their own teams dominate. Ironically I think it's what holding us back at regional level because if the teams in the Pro 12 are playing to a higher standard then it stands to reason we will probably be more successful in Europe.

Sadly though this will never happen which just illustrates why there is so much division in welsh rugby when we should all be unified.

This is where all your rubbish comes home, the 4 Regions are INDEPENDANT BUSINESSES, the Ospreys have been in the top 3 of shirts sold in the British Isles for at least the last 5 or 6 years, as well as having more adverts on said shirts in the same period (more revenue), so what are they going to do with this extra revenue, because of Team Wales calls up we needed more top class players than some teams needed, Blues and Scarlets are now contributing aprox the same. to some of the earlier comments, Byrne IIRC wasn't a Scarlet first team regular at the time Barry Davies was the main occupant, and I know it wasn't you but to say Marshall, Phillips and Webb in our Senior squads and signing Liam Davies all happening in the same period is delusional.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 4:54 pm

Wayne, they signed Liam Davies when they were well stocked at scrum half. The same with Tal Selley when wings and centres were well stocked. That said, they have stopped stockpiling like that now.

by Allty Fri 31 Jan 2014, 6:58 pm

[quote="ScarletSpiderman"]Mushroom,
A loan system between regions is one answer, loan out youth players to other regions to cover injuries, let them gain experience. The Blues need a scrum half and fly half. The Scarlets have Cawdor, Rhodri and Aled Williams lets loan them one. The Ospreys have Biggar, Nipper and Davies Jnr. lets loan one of them out. And then the Blues could loan the Scarlets an openside, and loan the Ospreys a player they need (can't think of any) etc.[/quote]

This was (If my memory is still working) the way the regions were initially sold.

With players going where they were needed.

by quinsforever Fri 31 Jan 2014, 8:15 pm

i dunno about rabo and HC, but every competition in every sport i have ever played in, doesnt allow players to play for different teams in the same competition.

for precisely these reasons. in english and french clubs it would never happen as they are genuinely competing with each others.

i absolutely guarantee you that rabo and HC rules prevent this. it's called being cup-tied.

by Allty Fri 31 Jan 2014, 8:40 pm

[quote="quinsforever"]i dunno about rabo and HC,
[/quote]
-------------------------------------

I don't think I for one explained clearly Quin

The idea was that if one club needed a player .....a player could at the start of his career/season be directed to the region.

At one stage the Ospreys had Marshall, Phillips, and 2 other good 9's on their books. Only 2 were getting any game time whilst the Scarlets needed a 9.

by quinsforever Fri 31 Jan 2014, 9:00 pm

fair enough. so not inter-club intra-season loans.

by ScarletSpiderman Fri 31 Jan 2014, 9:07 pm

quinsforever wrote:fair enough. so not inter-club intra-season loans.

Club to club loans are ok, if they are season long, its happened a few times in the regions, mainly to dragons, but then the plays.rs return to their proper region after.

I was talking about short term loans originally, but yeah your right they are not realistically possible.

by Allty Fri 31 Jan 2014, 10:55 pm

[quote="quinsforever"]fair enough. so not inter-club intra-season loans.[/quote]

Yes Why couldn't I say that .....

by Guest Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:46 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
quinsforever wrote:fair enough. so not inter-club intra-season loans.

Club to club loans are ok, if they are season long, its happened a few times in the regions, mainly to dragons, but then the plays.rs return to their proper region after.

I was talking about short term loans originally, but yeah your right they are not realistically possible.

Hey, we are a proper region, thank you! Very Happy

by Cardiff Dave Wed 05 Feb 2014, 11:24 am

Enjoyed the final Scarlets episode on BBC2 last night. Some highlights were;

Mark Davies exiting the Liberty - should have thrown out a swinging arm. Missed opportunity I feel.
Gareth Maule on central contracts - "you're asking the wrong man as i'm unlikely to be offered one".
Rob McCusker on central contracts - "the big issue is nobody really knows what it means".
Rob McCusker/Rhys Priestland on being Scarlet players first and foremost.
Groundskeeper Willie and his "pictures of grass".

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 05 Feb 2014, 11:27 am

Cardiff Dave wrote:Enjoyed the final Scarlets episode on BBC2 last night. Some highlights were;.........

Aggghhhh spoiler alert!!!!! I taped it to watch tonight (well will watch it on I-Player tonight)

Very good programme for seeing the regional situation, what we do well, and what we do poorly, and what the union do to help and to hinder. Definitely recommend people watch them, if they have missed them, it is ok all four are still on I-Player for the next week.

by Allty Wed 05 Feb 2014, 4:38 pm

Very good series and IMHO the Scarlets are being run in a professional manner.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 05 Feb 2014, 6:32 pm

Allty wrote:

Very good series and IMHO the Scarlets are being run in a professional manner.

+1, a good series indeed. They even picked out some handsome fans in the crowd Whistle

.

But being serious, I honestly recommend people watch it, only two hours in all, as it does really get the regional situation across., in a non-preachy way. Fingers crossed we can have a The Ospreys, The Dragons and The Blues series at some point in the coming years.

by Allty Wed 05 Feb 2014, 7:53 pm

It would be interesting and I doubt if the professionalism will as positive and region focused as the Scarlets

by ScarletSpiderman Wed 05 Feb 2014, 8:05 pm

Allty, I think their all pretty professional, but just get run down in the press/forums by folk before they really know what is what.

by Steffan Wed 05 Feb 2014, 8:28 pm

Despite Llanelli being the second most arrogant club in Wales I have always found the supporters to be a good bunch. I remember during the old club system Cardiff and Newport fans for example would want Pontypridd to lose in the Heineken Cup but Llanelli fans always seemed to get behind the Welsh sides (even Swansea)

I have only seen certain parts of the show and despite the heavy 'Llanelli is the greatest club ever' propaganda and the oppotunity to mention 1972 at every moment it is generally a watchable show

by Guest Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:19 pm

Steffan wrote:Despite Llanelli being the second most arrogant club in Wales I have always found the supporters to be a good bunch. I remember during the old club system Cardiff and Newport fans for example would want Pontypridd to lose in the Heineken Cup but Llanelli fans always seemed to get behind the Welsh sides (even Swansea)

I have only seen certain parts of the show and despite the heavy 'Llanelli is the greatest club ever' propaganda and the oppotunity to mention 1972 at every moment it is generally a watchable show

Who do you class as first? Ponty for thinking they could con the WRU that they could operate on a third of a budget? Or thinking that they are ready to step up to face Leinster etc now?

by Stone Motif Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:20 pm

Allty wrote:It would be interesting and I doubt if the professionalism will as positive and region focused as the Scarlets

And you've come to that conclusion based on what, exactly?

by Stone Motif Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:22 pm

Steffan wrote:Despite Llanelli being the second most arrogant club in Wales I have always found the supporters to be a good bunch. I remember during the old club system Cardiff and Newport fans for example would want Pontypridd to lose in the Heineken Cup but Llanelli fans always seemed to get behind the Welsh sides (even Swansea)

I have only seen certain parts of the show and despite the heavy 'Llanelli is the greatest club ever' propaganda and the oppotunity to mention 1972 at every moment it is generally a watchable show

Pity the feeling wasn't reciprocated by Ponty fans towards their western neighbours during the Prem final a couple of years back, where Llanelli fans were gobbed on and verbally abused by the crowd.

by Jimmy Moz Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:46 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
Steffan wrote:Despite Llanelli being the second most arrogant club in Wales I have always found the supporters to be a good bunch. I remember during the old club system Cardiff and Newport fans for example would want Pontypridd to lose in the Heineken Cup but Llanelli fans always seemed to get behind the Welsh sides (even Swansea)

I have only seen certain parts of the show and despite the heavy 'Llanelli is the greatest club ever' propaganda and the oppotunity to mention 1972 at every moment it is generally a watchable show

Who do you class as first? Ponty for thinking they could con the WRU that they could operate on a third of a budget? Or thinking that they are ready to step up to face Leinster etc now?

Ponty are just looking after they're interests the same as the other regions have done for the last 10 years. Hardly fair to single out a club for trying to get on in the rugby world.

by Jimmy Moz Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:47 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Steffan wrote:Despite Llanelli being the second most arrogant club in Wales I have always found the supporters to be a good bunch. I remember during the old club system Cardiff and Newport fans for example would want Pontypridd to lose in the Heineken Cup but Llanelli fans always seemed to get behind the Welsh sides (even Swansea)

I have only seen certain parts of the show and despite the heavy 'Llanelli is the greatest club ever' propaganda and the oppotunity to mention 1972 at every moment it is generally a watchable show

Pity the feeling wasn't reciprocated by Ponty fans towards their western neighbours during the Prem final a couple of years back, where Llanelli fans were gobbed on and verbally abused by the crowd.

This never happened. You are making it up. I was at the game.

by Guest Wed 05 Feb 2014, 9:50 pm

Hardly fair to start ranking systems for clubs' perceived arrogance, but there we go.

by Allty Wed 05 Feb 2014, 10:37 pm

[quote="Stone Motif"][quote="Allty"]It would be interesting and I doubt if the professionalism will as positive and region focused as the Scarlets[/quote]

And you've come to that conclusion based on what, exactly?[/quote]

Watching the TV series and listening to the CEO comments

by Allty Wed 05 Feb 2014, 10:53 pm

PS I'm not interested in any argument about regional rugby

by Steffan Wed 05 Feb 2014, 10:55 pm

Jimmy Moz wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Steffan wrote:Despite Llanelli being the second most arrogant club in Wales I have always found the supporters to be a good bunch. I remember during the old club system Cardiff and Newport fans for example would want Pontypridd to lose in the Heineken Cup but Llanelli fans always seemed to get behind the Welsh sides (even Swansea)

I have only seen certain parts of the show and despite the heavy 'Llanelli is the greatest club ever' propaganda and the oppotunity to mention 1972 at every moment it is generally a watchable show

Pity the feeling wasn't reciprocated by Ponty fans towards their western neighbours during the Prem final a couple of years back, where Llanelli fans were gobbed on and verbally abused by the crowd.
This never happened. You are making it up. I was at the game.

Yeah exactly what I thought Jimmy...LYING to suit an agenda against a club that he hates. Pathetic

by Stone Motif Thu 06 Feb 2014, 3:32 am

Jimmy Moz wrote:
Risca Rev wrote:
Steffan wrote:Despite Llanelli being the second most arrogant club in Wales I have always found the supporters to be a good bunch. I remember during the old club system Cardiff and Newport fans for example would want Pontypridd to lose in the Heineken Cup but Llanelli fans always seemed to get behind the Welsh sides (even Swansea)

I have only seen certain parts of the show and despite the heavy 'Llanelli is the greatest club ever' propaganda and the oppotunity to mention 1972 at every moment it is generally a watchable show

Who do you class as first? Ponty for thinking they could con the WRU that they could operate on a third of a budget? Or thinking that they are ready to step up to face Leinster etc now?
Ponty are just looking after they're interests the same as the other regions have done for the last 10 years. Hardly fair to single out a club for trying to get on in the rugby world.

Except financially, you can only go so far.

by Stone Motif Thu 06 Feb 2014, 3:32 am

Steffan wrote:
Jimmy Moz wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Steffan wrote:Despite Llanelli being the second most arrogant club in Wales I have always found the supporters to be a good bunch. I remember during the old club system Cardiff and Newport fans for example would want Pontypridd to lose in the Heineken Cup but Llanelli fans always seemed to get behind the Welsh sides (even Swansea)

I have only seen certain parts of the show and despite the heavy 'Llanelli is the greatest club ever' propaganda and the oppotunity to mention 1972 at every moment it is generally a watchable show

Pity the feeling wasn't reciprocated by Ponty fans towards their western neighbours during the Prem final a couple of years back, where Llanelli fans were gobbed on and verbally abused by the crowd.
This never happened. You are making it up. I was at the game.
Yeah exactly what I thought Jimmy...LYING to suit an agenda against a club that he hates. Pathetic

Lying am I?

I don't hate any club, only hypocrites Rolling Eyes

by Stone Motif Thu 06 Feb 2014, 3:34 am

Allty wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Allty wrote:It would be interesting and I doubt if the professionalism will as positive and region focused as the Scarlets

And you've come to that conclusion based on what, exactly?

Watching the TV series and listening to the CEO comments

Ah right, so you've also seen the series on the Blues, Ospreys and Dragons then.

by LordDowlais Thu 06 Feb 2014, 6:27 am

Stone Motif wrote:
Steffan wrote:Despite Llanelli being the second most arrogant club in Wales I have always found the supporters to be a good bunch. I remember during the old club system Cardiff and Newport fans for example would want Pontypridd to lose in the Heineken Cup but Llanelli fans always seemed to get behind the Welsh sides (even Swansea)

I have only seen certain parts of the show and despite the heavy 'Llanelli is the greatest club ever' propaganda and the oppotunity to mention 1972 at every moment it is generally a watchable show

Pity the feeling wasn't reciprocated by Ponty fans towards their western neighbours during the Prem final a couple of years back, where Llanelli fans were gobbed on and verbally abused by the crowd.

Hang on, I was at that game, I was sat with the Ponty supporters, I did not see any of this happening, also, I did not here of any of this happening until you have just wrote about it now, Stone, you really do come across as an unlikeable person on this forum, even bordering on arrogant.

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:39 am

Scott Williams is remaining Scarlet, signed up for another two years.

by LordDowlais Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:42 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Scott Williams is remaining Scarlet, signed up for another two years.

Who with, the Scarlets or the WRU ?

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 06 Feb 2014, 9:50 am

LordDowlais wrote:
ScarletSpiderman wrote:Scott Williams is remaining Scarlet, signed up for another two years.

Who with, the Scarlets or the WRU ?

Silly question man, I would be calling him Scott WRUilliams if he had gone central on us, and running him down on twitter Whistle

Being serious, it is with the Scarlets and the official announcement is meant to be later today (I think) and also from what I can gather Mr Priestland is also going to be staying put with a contract with the Scarlets (should be announced in the next week or so). Yahoo

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