What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales
 

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:was interested to hear on scrumv that there are approx 1,000 people employed in the 4 regions setups in some shape or form.

.

If true that is a massive inefficiency that needs addressing.

Ulster do not employ anything like 250 people - not even half

Have to admit the 1000 figure is a tad mis-leading.
The following link gives the number of employees of the regions (137 for the Scarlets) and plenty more info too.
http://companycheck.co.uk/index

Scarlet/Hammer they key point is these people are not dependant on Ulster for employment.

Our bars are run by 2 organization Laverys and Mount Charles.
Those individuals are seconded in to work on the night.
No Ravenhill nights would not result in a loss of employment.
I know someone who work for Duke of York (the above organizations predecessor) and, indirectly, know the guy who runs the Mount Charles part of the operation so know what I am saying is correct.
Also clearly people who volunteer have no job to lose.

The original point above was Quins talking about the employment/bad publicity impact of 1000 jobs going.
My point was to illustrate that providing the Scarlets model is similar to ours the impact would be nothing like that.

They may not be dependant on jobs but its a source of income.

You could spread things out as far as local pubs not getting the pre and post match crowds.

I know the pubs in Newport certainly need the extra income provided.

So if these companies had fewer events to cover they would maintain the same staffing levels? That seems a bit strange. You're contracted to do X so you need Y staff. If you have do less than X then you need less than Y to do it.

Geoff - these people who are seconded in to work for the games, there is no arguing that what so ever. However would they be working that evening if the game was not on? At a guess if they would have been working elsewhere, then someone has had to be drafted in from somewhere else to fill the gap, or there is an understaffing going on that night (or worse and overstaffing going on every other night).

Secondly, I think you are not getting what I am trying to get across. 1,000 jobs does not mean 1,000 people being employed on a living wage. A teen who turns up once to man the bar is counted in that 1,000. If they have a different team on the bar each time, then each one of those will be counted as someone who has worked 'for' the region.

Thirdly, yes it is definitely an inflated figure, however there will most likely be a good 800+ people looking for work if the regions went to the wall. And if these people lose jobs then it hits the pubs and newspaper shops that they use etc etc. That's is the issue with things like this, it is not just the immediate jobs, but the knock on effect to small businesses down the chain.

munkian wrote:They may not be dependant on jobs but its a source of income.

You could spread things out as far as local pubs not getting the pre and post match crowds.

I know the pubs in Newport certainly need the extra income provided.

+1, lose one big employer in an area and loss half a dozen smaller ones because of it.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

geoff998rugby wrote:

quinsforever wrote:was interested to hear on scrumv that there are approx 1,000 people employed in the 4 regions setups in some shape or form.

.

If true that is a massive inefficiency that needs addressing.

Ulster do not employ anything like 250 people - not even half

Have to admit the 1000 figure is a tad mis-leading.
The following link gives the number of employees of the regions (137 for the Scarlets) and plenty more info too.
http://companycheck.co.uk/index

Ospreys = 120
Cardiff = 96

Dai, I can't get that website to give out any employee numbers. But just counter Blues playing and backroom staff as 64, so that leave 32 others. I am guessing that some of the other stadium type jobs are covered by Cardiff RFC?

The people who work in the bars are typically people who volunteer for overtime.

As I mentioned volunteers, to sell programs etc, can't lose jobs.
They dont have one in the first place.

The headline '1000 jobs' go is eye catching but wrong.
Of the playing staff itself of course a number would get employment else.

A figure of 200 sounds nearer the mark

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Dai, I can't get that website to give out any employee numbers.  But just counter Blues playing and backroom staff as 64, so that leave 32 others.  I am guessing that some of the other stadium type jobs are covered by Cardiff RFC?

Keep guessing.
If you hover over the "Directors" tab a flyout shows a list with "employees" included on it. Also the "Structure" tab to the right will show you who's who and what's what.

Question, the deadline passed for signing the PA on 31 Dec.
6 days later a 271 page new WRU proposal appears.
So do we reckon Rog is resting today?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/regions-offer-key-welsh-stars-6476676

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/07/wales-regions-sign-players-wru-proposals

This claims there is nothing about funding in the PA and they have to commit to the ERC competition. Apparently there's nothing much in it and it's mainly a starting point for discussions.

This is according to Paul Rees who either ryas an amazing inside track or is talking out of his arse.

Cardiff Dave wrote:Question, the deadline passed for signing the PA on 31 Dec.    
6 days later a 271 page new WRU proposal appears.
So do we reckon Rog is resting today?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/regions-offer-key-welsh-stars-6476676

6 days and 271 pages.
That means they wrote the new proposal at a rate of 45.17 pages per day.  If we assume they actually rested on New Year's Day, then they authored the proposal at a rate of 54.2 pages per day.  If they rested on New Year's Day and then took one day to carefully consider their available options and thoughtfully plot the best way forward for all involved, then they wrote the proposal at  67.75 pages per day.  That is extraordinary.

or, they took the previous 270 and a half page PA that they wanted the regions to sign, and made a few edits.

will be interesting to see whether the edits are meaningful enough to tempt the regions.

If it's anything like their yearly financial reports then half of it will be made up of pictures.

  

doctor_grey wrote:
6 days and 271 pages.  
That means they wrote the new proposal at a rate of 45.17 pages per day.  If we assume they actually rested on New Year's Day, then they authored the proposal at a rate of 54.2 pages per day.  If they rested on New Year's Day and then took one day to carefully consider their available options and thoughtfully plot the best way forward for all involved, then they wrote the proposal at  67.75 pages per day.  That is extraordinary.

God rested on the 7th, mun.
It is indeed extraordinary. Or rather quite extraordinary as Dan Maskell used to say. Either that or it's a re-hash as quins suggests or that the WRU have been secretly at it behind the scenes for weeks and weeks and weeks.

quinsforever wrote:or, they took the previous 270 and a half page PA that they wanted the regions to sign, and made a few edits.

will be interesting to see whether the edits are meaningful enough to tempt the regions.

They're "underwhelmed" apparently.

Griff wrote:If it's anything like their yearly financial reports then half of it will be made up.

Fixed.

Yet again, I am really not sure of where to post this, so this thread seems as good as any.

There is talk on some other fans forums for regional supporters who will be attending 6Ns games to turn up in their regional colours for games. To be honest as a Scarlets fan, I have always warn my Scarlets shirt to the MS, as I am too cheap to by a Welsh shirt, and red is red and all that.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is talk on some other fans forums for regional supporters who will be attending 6Ns games to turn up in their regional colours for games.

Maybe they should turn up to their Regions in them too.   

Scrumpy wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is talk on some other fans forums for regional supporters who will be attending 6Ns games to turn up in their regional colours for games.

Maybe they should turn up to their Regions in them too.   

  

Cardiff Dave wrote:Question, the deadline passed for signing the PA on 31 Dec.    
6 days later a 271 page new WRU proposal appears.
So do we reckon Rog is resting today?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/regions-offer-key-welsh-stars-6476676

Dave, in actual fact the evidence is more compelling, when Andrew Hore and Mark Davies were interviewed at half time in the Ospreys Scarlets game last Friday (Jan 3rd) they said that the WRU had mentioned the new PA the day before, therefore they had produced a 271 page document in less than 2 days as Jan 1st is a bank holiday, they (WRU) are beyond belief.

Scrumpy wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:There is talk on some other fans forums for regional supporters who will be attending 6Ns games to turn up in their regional colours for games.

Maybe they should turn up to their Regions in them too.   

  

Too true mate

Oh crikey!

"David Moffett in surprise bid to make return to Welsh rugby and seek place on WRU board"

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/david-moffett-surprise-bid-make-6481499

Cardiff Dave wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/david-moffett-surprise-bid-make-6481499

I love some of the comments below the article already about this clown. They are true and the further this man is away from Welsh rugby the better

Steffan wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/david-moffett-surprise-bid-make-6481499

I love some of the comments below the article already about this clown. They are true and the further this man is away from Welsh rugby the better

On reading his Q&A on GWLAD my opinion of Moffett hasn't changed. He's a numpty with a personal agenda. GWLAD fans seem to be sucking it up though.

Moffett said over 10 years ago that the regions were there to serve the national team yet he allowed them to run themselves and gave people like Gallagher, Pies and Tony Brown power to dictate the show. 10 years on and the regions serve only themselves yet the man who gave them pretty much endless power now wants back in. At least Roger has some backbone unlike this clown. Stay away Moffett (P.S. I guess your looking for another 5 bedroom house down the Vale). Stay well away

lets be honest. union rugby ceo bods cant bear being out of the limelight. martyn thomas is exactly the same. they become addicted to the power and status that the position affords them. roger lewis certainly fits this mould, as does camou. the rest not so much.

Steffan wrote:Moffett said over 10 years ago that the regions were there to serve the national team yet he allowed them to run themselves and gave people like Gallagher, Pies and Tony Brown power to dictate the show. 10 years on and the regions serve only themselves yet the man who gave them pretty much endless power now wants back in. At least Roger has some backbone unlike this clown. Stay away Moffett (P.S. I guess your looking for another 5 bedroom house down the Vale). Stay well away

Actually no, Cardiff Dave posted an article a while back (on the original thread maybe) that showed that Moffett wanted 4 or 5 regional entities with no ties to existing clubs, but the clubs rejected it. We/they have themselves to blame really!

Just wondering how all this ' washing your dirty laundry in public ' by WRU and regions is doing to promote the game. They have both failed abysmally to market and promote pro rugby. The feel good generated by Grand slams and 6 nations championships has got blown away by all this squabbling over money. They need to make pro rugby compelling, a must see, exciting, ' sexy ', create a big buzz about it to attract crowds and therefore sponsors. They are doing the opposite.

Would you want to commercially sponsor these clowns and end up embroiled in all this ?

Top players leaving to trim the wage bill has made the product worse which will discourage floating supporters like me to attend. Players who no one has heard of crashing into other players no one ha sheard of will not attract new spectators. A combination of variable kick off times, cost, really crappy performances that don't really make people want to part with £20 when they could watch paint dry for free. Or in fact the match on Tv for free.

It just makes me feel miserable. And my hobby of rugby is supposed to make me feel happy.   

Hope Wales winning the Grand Slam this year cheers me up. Even if they all play in France.   

Griff wrote:

Steffan wrote:Moffett said over 10 years ago that the regions were there to serve the national team yet he allowed them to run themselves and gave people like Gallagher, Pies and Tony Brown power to dictate the show. 10 years on and the regions serve only themselves yet the man who gave them pretty much endless power now wants back in. At least Roger has some backbone unlike this clown. Stay away Moffett (P.S. I guess your looking for another 5 bedroom house down the Vale). Stay well away

Actually no, Cardiff Dave posted an article a while back (on the original thread maybe) that showed that Moffett wanted 4 or 5 regional entities with no ties to existing clubs, but the clubs rejected it. We/they have themselves to blame really!

Aye, with Moffett's initial proposal being 1 in the north and 3 in the south.

POSTED HERE TO AVOID DERAILLING ANOTHER THREAD

Steffan wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:1) It seems a bit bum-about-face that he claims that the 'region' is pretty large, but then says everything is done for Pontypridd RFC. Either your a region or a pro-club, after all that is what the claims of the Pro-Valleys Rugby folk. Now it seems that you can be a pro-club and a region. Make your minds up before your supporters start to throw mud at the current regions!

No different to anything Pieman or Gallagher has said over the last 10 years (Slimey Stuart saying Llanelli was a bigger club that Swansea, Neath and Bridgend put together ring any bells?). And yes you can be a pro-club and a region...just ask Llanelli Scarlets RFC Region, Swansea Ospreys RFC Region, Cardiff Blues RFC Region and Newport Dragons RFC Region

Even though I disagree about the regions being pro clubs, you run them down as pro clubs and never admit they are at all regional. Now you seem to have done a U-Turn.

Steffan wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:3) It seems pretty smug to make a big thing about being the B&I flag bearers, when they are the only side that don't seem to want to work alongside their region.

Why wouldnt they be happy about being B&I flag bearers...its the best competition the club can play in right now. The 'regions' dont want to work alongside the WRU but this is ok to you as long as Llanelli Scarlets come out of this fine. Seems to be ok for the Welsh 'regions' to hype themselves up and look after their interests but as soon a little ol' Ponty do it.....ooh thats so wrong

Problem is Steffan you claim we are smug, so if we are so are Pontypridd for exactly the same reasons. There is a real double standard here, you run the regions down for something, but it is acceptable for another.

Steffan wrote:On a final note...Valleys Rugby probably would have been a superclub pretending to be a region playing out of one ground (Ponty) and eventually ended up demanding more money......so in short......no different to the 4 piles of shambolic crap that we have now in Wales. Mock Ponty and Valleys rugby all you want but take a look in the mirror at what you support now before doing it

I honestly have no issue with Pontypridd RFC and/or Valley Rugby. And to be honest in an ideal world I would like to see Valley Rugby and RGC1404 sitting at the top table too. So please do not think that I am mocking them. However, what I did do was apply the rules and bile that you judge the current set up, and apply it to what you are championing as their replacement. There is no difference, except for the current regions are 10 years further down the road of dealing with their problems, and dealing with their haters.

Anyway will post this reply in the Whats Going On In Wales thread so we don't derail the 'The Welsh 6' to be loaned to English Clubs? thread with this bickering.

I think Steffans point is that Ponty are no worse than the current regions. Everyone else's point is they're no better.

Bluedragon wrote:Just wondering how all this ' washing your dirty laundry in public ' by WRU and regions is doing to promote the game. They have both failed abysmally to market and promote pro rugby. The feel good generated by Grand slams and 6 nations championships has got blown away by all this squabbling over money. They need to make pro rugby compelling, a must see, exciting, ' sexy ', create a big buzz about it to attract crowds and therefore sponsors. They are doing the opposite.

Would you want to commercially sponsor  these clowns and end up embroiled in all this ?

Top players leaving to trim the wage bill has made the product worse which will discourage floating supporters like me to attend. Players who no one has heard of crashing into other players no one ha sheard of will not attract new spectators. A combination of variable kick off times, cost, really crappy performances that don't really make people want to part with £20 when they could watch paint dry for free. Or in fact the match on Tv for free.

It just makes me feel miserable. And my hobby of rugby is supposed to make me feel happy.   

Hope Wales winning the Grand Slam this year cheers me up. Even if they all play in France.   

Pretty much my sentiments exactly, Bluedragon.

Bluedragon wrote:Just wondering how all this ' washing your dirty laundry in public ' by WRU and regions is doing to promote the game.  

I wondered the same 5 or more years ago before the last PA was signed.
Here's a reminder;
http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/84903.html
http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/99649.html

Steffan wrote:Moffett said over 10 years ago that the regions were there to serve the national team yet he allowed them to run themselves and gave people like Gallagher, Pies and Tony Brown power to dictate the show. 10 years on and the regions serve only themselves yet the man who gave them pretty much endless power now wants back in. At least Roger has some backbone unlike this clown. Stay away Moffett (P.S. I guess your looking for another 5 bedroom house down the Vale). Stay well away

Do you not think it's ironic though Steff in that the man you seem to despise was the one who turned the WRU from a basket case into a profit making machine, with the help of the regions of course, enabling the WRU to now take on the regions that you also don't like? Back then the WRU was in no fit state to take on anybody really which is why we have what we have basically.
The regions have served the national team very well. 3 grand slams is a clue and arguably we now have our finest team/set of players ever, thanks to both the WRU and the regions, I may add.
I understand why you don't like the current set up, btw. I'll say no more than that.

Moffett is a good businessman I cant deny that. But what he did is now outdated and we need someone to serve the interests of Welsh rugby on a whole not just for some regions problem. I do wonder what Moffetts view is on the North Wales academy (probably thinks its a waste of money)

Not sure I trust the possibility of Moffett reentering the fray. The man can do no wrong in his own eyes and seems far more interested in his public profile than anything else. Does it not strike anyone as strange that his last action of note in Wales was as head of RRW and now he's appealing for back into the opposite side?

Gwyn Jones has apparently made an appeal for the WRU to run the Welsh game. Can't say I don't agree on at least one point, that the level of control the regions are seeking is dangerous to the game, but thought I'd put it out there anyway to gauge general opinion.

Knowsit17 wrote:Not sure I trust the possibility of Moffett reentering the fray. The man can do no wrong in his own eyes and seems far more interested in his public profile than anything else. Does it not strike anyone as strange that his last action of note in Wales was as head of RRW and now he's appealing for back into the opposite side?

Gwyn Jones has apparently made an appeal for the WRU to run the Welsh game. Can't say I don't agree on at least one point, that the level of control the regions are seeking is dangerous to the game, but thought I'd put it out there anyway to gauge general opinion.

Sadly, the highlighted bit can be said about anyone with any power in rugby in wales full stop, from the very top of the WRU to the smallest village club. I can't remember who said it, but where ever you look in welsh rugby there is a Bryn Cartwright.

Knowsit17 wrote:Not sure I trust the possibility of Moffett reentering the fray. The man can do no wrong in his own eyes and seems far more interested in his public profile than anything else. Does it not strike anyone as strange that his last action of note in Wales was as head of RRW and now he's appealing for back into the opposite side?

Gwyn Jones has apparently made an appeal for the WRU to run the Welsh game. Can't say I don't agree on at least one point, that the level of control the regions are seeking is dangerous to the game, but thought I'd put it out there anyway to gauge general opinion.

Not strange at all really. Think about it.
The regions cannot work with Rog, but they have proved they can work with Dave.
Ooh I am eeeevil!

Steffan wrote:Moffett is a good businessman I cant deny that. But what he did is now outdated and we need someone to serve the interests of Welsh rugby on a whole not just for some regions problem. I do wonder what Moffetts view is on the North Wales academy (probably thinks its a waste of money)

Absolutely agree.
Therefore a new man at the top please plus an end to the 4th AI which was introduced by Roger if i'm not mistaken. It has caused nowt, but aggro from day one and not only in Wales, but in England too. George recently to Peel/Cooper years ago.
http://www.espn.co.uk/wales/rugby/story/84903.html

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Sadly, the highlighted bit can be said about anyone with any power in rugby in wales full stop, from the very top of the WRU to the smallest village club.  I can't remember who said it, but where ever you look in welsh rugby there is a Bryn Cartwright.

  
Had to google it though.
Feel like a bath with my brother now for some reason.

Having initially felt a little dismayed at the prospect of a Moffett comeback, I think if they turned a Roger v Dave power struggle into a sort of downmarket version of The Apprentice, it might make good telly.

Casartelli wrote:Having initially felt a little dismayed at the prospect of a Moffett comeback, I think if they turned a Roger v Dave power struggle into a sort of downmarket version of BOXING, it might make good telly.

Fixed

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Having initially felt a little dismayed at the prospect of a Moffett comeback, I think if they turned a Roger v Dave power struggle into a sort of downmarket version of BOXING, it might make good telly.

Fixed

Like PRGB then, but with a referee.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Having initially felt a little dismayed at the prospect of a Moffett comeback, I think if they turned a Roger v Dave power struggle into a sort of downmarket version of BOXING, it might make good telly.

Fixed

Like PRGB then, but with a referee.

Get them to do it in the MS, charge £25 a ticket and split the game 50-50 (£937,500 each) to WRU and regions, and the winner gets to keep the top dog job. That way everyone is happy (bar whoever gets their nose spread across their face).

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Casartelli wrote:Having initially felt a little dismayed at the prospect of a Moffett comeback, I think if they turned a Roger v Dave power struggle into a sort of downmarket version of BOXING, it might make good telly.

Fixed

Like PRGB then, but with a referee.

Get them to do it in the MS, charge £25 a ticket and split the game 50-50 (£937,500 each) to WRU and regions, and the winner gets to keep the top dog job.  That way everyone is happy (bar whoever gets their nose spread across their face).

Brilliant. That sex addict one from The Apprentice can walk around between rounds holding numbers up.

Knowsit17 wrote:Not sure I trust the possibility of Moffett reentering the fray.

I don't trust any of our suits. That goes for the Pieman and Moffett, but I trust Dodger even less.
I wonder though, is Moffett returning off his own bat in an attempt to finish the fudge he began in 2002? Or is all this being orchestrated by the regions to force Roger out? I've no idea, but it adds another chapter to the story.
WRU elections are in August so the fun and games are going to continue for a while yet and who knows what will happen if Moffett is elected chairman. Could that mean him and Roger working together? Imagine that?

Jiffy says;
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25675459

It's all chaos says JJ;

Welsh rugby greats voice their concerns over war between WRU and regions

Wales stars of the past JPR Williams, Gareth Edwards, Phil Bennett, John Dawes, Clive Rowlands and JJ Williams attended a meeting at the request of Regional Rugby Wales chairman Nigel Short

The greats of Welsh rugby have made an impassioned plea for the WRU and regions to sit down and thrash out a solution to the crisis which is threatening to destroy the game.

The Welsh Rugby Former International Players Association (WREX) have added their voice to the big debate and called for common sense to prevail for the good of the game.

They have voiced their concerns after a star-studded group of their members met with regional representatives this week.

The likes of JPR Williams, Gareth Edwards, Phil Bennett, John Dawes, Clive Rowlands and JJ Williams attended a meeting at the request of Regional Rugby Wales chairman Nigel Short.

Scarlets chairman Short outlined the regions’ efforts to secure a viable future for themselves and their stance over the ongoing dispute with the WRU.

Now the former players have called for the two sides to get around the table once again and find a way forward.

Wrex founder JJ Williams says there is real concern within the Association over the damage being caused by a row that has been rumbling on for months now.

“Welsh rugby has been our lives and what is happening worries us greatly,” said the former Test winger.

“We should be celebrating right now, given all the success we have had at international level with Wales and the Lions.

“The game should be booming, but it’s the reverse.

“Although we are winning Grand Slams and Six Nations titles, everything below that is in turmoil. It’s all chaos and it’s not good for Welsh rugby. It’s frightening to be honest.

“Less people are playing and watching the game at all levels. Clubs are finding it hard.

“There is real concern and frustration from the general public.

“People come up to me and say ‘What is happening in Welsh rugby?’

“My club Nantyffylon used to take two buses down to Cardiff for every Wales game. We’ve not run a bus for two years now.

“A lot of people I meet say they just don’t go and watch the game anymore. It’s very worrying and very disturbing.

“If you look at the Premiership, the bottom five teams are Newport, Bridgend, Neath, Swansea and Aberavon, all great clubs.

“There is something radically wrong when a club like Swansea are down there, one from bottom.

“If they get relegated, they could be playing Waunarlwydd next season. That is frightening.

“We need to look at the whole structure.”

Former Wales and Lions try-machine Williams said the ex-players had found the meeting with the regional representatives useful and informative.

“Nigel invited us along to bring us up to speed and voice their views,” he said.

“He told us about the funding situation and all the figures.

“There was no slagging of Roger Lewis.

“It was just a case of the regions expressing the frustration they feel and talking about what is going to happen next season.

“They are finding it difficult to progress because they are in limbo land.

“Basically, they want to be in control of their own destiny and secure a sustainable future.

“It was a case of this is what is happening and this is what we are going to do to try and survive.

“It wasn’t just the regions he talked about. He spoke about the Premiership and the leagues below and how the clubs are finding it hard going.

“People aren’t playing the game and aren’t going to watch rugby.  We are all up against it with Swansea City and Cardiff City in the Premiership.

“These are worrying times.”

Therefore Williams feels it’s vital that a solution is found to Welsh rugby’s civil war as soon as possible.

He believes the only hope is for both sides to put the rancour of the past few months behind them and start talks afresh.

“We have got to have dialogue,” he said.

“They must come together, sit around the table and thrash it out for the sake of Welsh rugby.

“Common sense needs to prevail.

“We want leadership. We want the Union to run the game, but they have got to run it right.

“We have got to have regional rugby. We’ve got to help and build that.

“We don’t want the regions to fold. We want them to flourish.

“They are not innocent in this. They have made massive mistakes along the way.

“But when you talk about people like Peter Thomas and Mike Cuddy, they have put a huge amount of money into the game.

“Collectively, the benefactors have put in £40m over the last number of years.

“If they had not put it in, where would we be?”

Williams added: “We need the two sides to get talking.

“It does worry us that there is so much unrest out there. It can’t go on like this.

“As Clive Rowlands said at this week’s meeting, ‘rugby football is in my blood and I want to see it prosper’.

“We’ve got to get things going again.”

The Union have offered the regions a new Participation Agreement in the wake of them declining to extend the existing deal by a further five years.

The regions are currently pouring over and digesting the 271-page document, having been given 10 days, up until next Thursday, to come up with a response.

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/welsh-rugby-greats-voice-concerns-6495931