What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

by ScarletSpiderman Mon Jan 06, 2014 10:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case? It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

by HammerofThunor Wed Feb 19, 2014 3:10 pm

I was just giving an example of another method (to show that the WRU way isn't the only way). Did I even suggest they should follow the RFU example? They may have legitimate reasoning behind keeping their turnover figures looking large (beyond corporate bonuses).

The RFU don't have to play ball with the PRL. If they wanted to they can retain the TV rights to the premiership in 2016. they retain the sponsorship rights in 2016. They can stop giving out financial incentives in 2016. They will lose the additional access to the players but they will retain the IRB window time (which is bigger than when they originally made the deal).

The PRL are as much dependant on the RFU as the LNR are on the FFR. Whether or not the French laws means the FFR retain control, the IRB regulations say the unions do. So, unless they want to play outside of the IRB, they do what the RFU allow them.

It seems that because the RFU have given ownership of the commercial aspects of their games to the PRL the PRL are 'overlords'.

It's compete and utter horseshit.

by Cardiff Dave Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:16 pm

Stone Motif wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:
Seagultaf wrote:

Is this part of the money that is granted to the Regions by the benevolent WRU. Is it part of the Regions agreement with the WRU for playing in the Euro tournaments? Or part of the money earned by the Regions, that just passes through the WRU hands?

The latter.

So if the WRU get ERC monies are paid to them, and divvy out that competition money to the regions, it shouldn't be the regions suffering. The WRU run that money through their own accounts and count it as turnover. Why on earth are the WRU not obliged to pay the regions this money that is due to them under contract (participation agreement)?

The slimy WRU have offered to loan the regions their own money (presumably after legal advice) - and in return they get painted in the press as do-gooders who are helping the failing regions out.

Pathetic state of affairs. The WRU are a national embarrassment.

Directly linked to the Chief Exec's renumeration, if I'm not mistaken.

The guy is a crook.

Caerphilly council-tastic.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-26246849

by wayne Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:34 pm

[quote="SecretFly"]Nope.. WRU part-owned the ERC set-up would do me.
They ain't stealing anyone's money when it comes through their hands first. Employers get the profit cheques, then they pay their workers
Wrong, the Regions are NOT the WRU workers, they are independent companies in their own right.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:36 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:

The PRL are as much dependant on the RFU as the LNR are on the FFR. Whether or not the French laws means the FFR retain control, the IRB regulations say the unions do. So, unless they want to play outside of the IRB, they do what the RFU allow them.

It seems that because the RFU have given ownership of the commercial aspects of their games to the PRL the PRL are 'overlords'.

It's compete and utter horseshit.

Ownership of Commerical aspects is overlording. You call it what you will and I'll call it what suits my interpretation.

Back to the factory analogy. Factory floor workers - fabricators, electricians, quality control personel etc in a Mercedes factory - they do the work - they do the sweating to actually produce the product that sells (call them clubs/provinces/regions)

...but that does not mean that they get the right, or have the right, to claim they're doing all the work and therefore should be the ones to own the brand, decide what markets they're going to sell into, decide the price they're going to sell at, decide the advertising avenues they are going to go down. No, they are workers - owners are owners - both of the game in that nation (Unions) and of the very sporting code itself (Rugby Union).

Some of you persist in thinking that situation shouldn't exist and that individual privately run operations should control the rubgy union game from here on in in virtually every practical level (rules, numbers involved, tiers, salaries, conditions of entry, International player availability etc).
I say if privately run clubs (or their mouthpieces - PRL/LNR) want full unhindered control of the rugby Union code into the future - with Unions as only figureheads - then the time is right for another break away from the code itself. Break away - form a new code.... but don't claim ownership of the present one.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:37 pm

wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Nope.. WRU part-owned the ERC set-up would do me.
They ain't stealing anyone's money when it comes through their hands first. Employers get the profit cheques, then they pay their workers
Wrong, the Regions are NOT the WRU workers, they are independent companies in their own right.

They are workers allowed to claim to be playing a certain code of a sport by the owners of that code. Workers.

by Allty Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:45 pm

by HammerofThunor Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:46 pm

That's fine and shows the clear and total difference of opinion of a union's function (I remember you don't like my use of purpose).

On your factory thing, I see the union as the inspectors, BSI, PHE, etc not the owners. The oversee it an makes sure it adheres to certain standards and having inspectors [refs, discipline committees]. But if those standards are not maintained they can take away their license and shut them down.

although your anaology does fit with how some people in Wales sees the system. You have the people grafting and doing the real work on minimum wage, zero hour contracts and the owners pocket all the money and live in mansions.

How is the PRL sorting out the contracts that they would have recieved the full amount of 'overlording'?

The IRFU, WRU, FIR and SRU give ALL of the commerical money from the competitions to their teams that play in them. All of it. On top of that they ALL give more money. You think that having this money go straight to the teams instead of though the union gives overlordship to them? I just don't understand it. The only reason the PRL can sell the TV rights is because the RFU say they can for 8 years. Once that 8 years is up they have to ask for it again. On what planet is that overlordship?

by wayne Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:48 pm

SecretFly wrote:
wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Nope.. WRU part-owned the ERC set-up would do me.
They ain't stealing anyone's money when it comes through their hands first. Employers get the profit cheques, then they pay their workers
Wrong, the Regions are NOT the WRU workers, they are independent companies in their own right.

They are workers allowed to claim to be playing a certain code of a sport by the owners of that code. Workers.

Wrong, Bod, Heaslip and Murray are workers of the IRFU, Priestland, Faletau and AWJ are workers for 3 Independant Regions.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:50 pm

Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise Wink

But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.

by wayne Wed Feb 19, 2014 4:57 pm

SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.

You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:07 pm

wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies & Lapdogs of the PRL.

Fixed that for you, wayne - no extra charge on this occasion! Wink

by Guest Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:13 pm

wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies.

They aren't truly independent though, are they? More like a franchise operating under a particular brand, and operating in accordance with the rules, and regulations, the brand owners (IRB) set out.

by SecretFly Wed Feb 19, 2014 5:24 pm

wayne wrote:
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies.

Servants are workers..they get paid in my country Wink

And wrong again - workers they are and workers they shall remain unless they find the courage to....break away? Three rugby codes on the planet? - now that's well on the way to world domination for one of them. Wink

And BTW - the PRL and companies like them - act more like communist workers parties (ie, backward like My country) than they do as sub-companies of a bigger company, which is what they are.

Workers rights!!!!! Workers rule!! Down with Capitalism! Down with Ownership!!!!!!!!! The USSPRL! Yahoo

by HammerofThunor Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:18 pm

Isn't the whole point of unions that the workers (in your example) ARE the owners?

by SecretFly Wed Feb 19, 2014 6:36 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Isn't the whole point of unions that the workers (in your example) ARE the owners?

You would think so, wouldn't you ...but it's the word 'Union' (ancient and with the sniff of old dog communism about it - maybe even a touch of Skargill Wink

) that the slick media folk of PRL have been trying to beat down the Unions with in the press over the months. "They is ancient", "they don't know how to do modern business", "they are fossils of a bygone age".... and so on and so on.

So - to answer your question, obviously many members of the gentleman's business club that is the PRL don't share that view that the Unions are the workers and so forth, in tandem, that the workers are the Unions.

Nope, they see themselves as the hard working 'workers' and they see the Unions as the Tsars/Empire. The PRL are communists - they want to assume ownership and assasinate the power of the 'Unions'. Down with Capitalism. Down with the concept of Ownership. We the 'workers' are taking over the show.
Of course the giggle is that even in that perfect society of workers assuming 'ownership' - you still had hiearchy where some workers owned more than others..... Yep, McCafferty has read Animal farm - and likes it.

by wayne Thu Feb 20, 2014 3:46 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies & Lapdogs of the PRL.

Fixed that for you, wayne - no extra charge on this occasion!

ALAB, about 4 or 5 years ago, the Ospreys Supporters Club set up a tradition that has existed every year since, of inviting somebody from the Coaching and Admin side of the Ospreys to an open Q&A session with regular Osprey supporters, this was the only one of these meetings that I've attended. Andrew Hore gave the first address, the main gist of his speech was that in the Major Rugby playing nations of especially the NH the growth was in the Club game, that basically the International Game was at the highest level it would ever attain, and as the Unions wanted Total Control of the game there was going to be a struggle for the Clubs against the Unions, so to say that RRW are the lapdogs of PRL, it is more than likely the instigator of this process is RRW

by wayne Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:17 pm

Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies.

They aren't truly independent though, are they? More like a franchise operating under a particular brand, and operating in accordance with the rules, and regulations, the brand owners (IRB) set out.

Munchkin, you really need to do some research and understand what a Franchise system is, within Rugby Union no major NH country operates a Franchise system, they are only used in the SH, if there is any country within the NH that is as far away as possible from a Franchise as it is possible to be it is Wales, the teams below International level are Independent Companies, unlike Ireland and Scotland who are Owned by their National Unions, who could get rid of any of them at any time.

by Guest Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:29 pm

wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies.

They aren't truly independent though, are they? More like a franchise operating under a particular brand, and operating in accordance with the rules, and regulations, the brand owners (IRB) set out.
Munchkin, you really need to do some research and understand what a Franchise system is, within Rugby Union no major NH country operates a Franchise system, they are only used in the SH, if there is any country within the NH that is as far away as possible from a Franchise as it is possible to be it is Wales, the teams below International level are Independent Companies, unlike Ireland and Scotland who are Owned by their National Unions, who could get rid of any of them at any time.

I honestly don't think I need to do the research, wayne. I didn't say they were franchises. I said more like a franchise. Simply to illustrate how as businesses they run under the brand of Rugby Union. If they really aren't happy being under the control of WRU or IRB, then they are free to play rugby outside of Union control. It just wouldn't be Rugby Union.
No, the WRU cannot get rid of the regions just any time. They do have contracts. At least until the end of this season anyway.

by wayne Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:41 pm

[quote="SecretFly"]Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise Wink

But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.[/quote
Who said they owned the game I sure as hell didn't. As for the Franchise argument, as I said to Munchkin you need to do the same Research. Before I retired I was a qualified Electrician, having done a National Coal Board Apprenticeship, and working at companies such as Firestone Tyre and Rubber Company, Lyons Maid and worked within Government buildings and Buck House and Clarence House in London, in order to Qualify you Have to pass exams some of which, especially the Regs, are set by the Institute of Electrical Engineers.
To get to the Nitty Gritty was I a worker, YES, was I a worker for the National Coal Board or any of the quoted companies,YES, was I a worker for the IEE or the City and Guilds Institute who set the Exams, NO, when I was doing my Apprenticeship and during my working life I played Rugby, Football, Golf and many other Sports was I a worker under any of these sports, NO, even though they have Regulation Setting Authorities, (Golf has 2).

by wayne Thu Feb 20, 2014 4:48 pm

Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies.

They aren't truly independent though, are they? More like a franchise operating under a particular brand, and operating in accordance with the rules, and regulations, the brand owners (IRB) set out.
Munchkin, you really need to do some research and understand what a Franchise system is, within Rugby Union no major NH country operates a Franchise system, they are only used in the SH, if there is any country within the NH that is as far away as possible from a Franchise as it is possible to be it is Wales, the teams below International level are Independent Companies, unlike Ireland and Scotland who are Owned by their National Unions, who could get rid of any of them at any time.

I honestly don't think I need to do the research, wayne. I didn't say they were franchises. I said more like a franchise. Simply to illustrate how as businesses they run under the brand of Rugby Union. If they really aren't happy being under the control of WRU or IRB, then they are free to play rugby outside of Union control. It just wouldn't be Rugby Union.
No, the WRU cannot get rid of the regions just any time. They do have contracts. At least until the end of this season anyway.

Munchkin, as I said unlike the IRFU, as they are nothing remotely like a Franchise, as for new contracts, who are getting what they wanted through the recent negotiations it sure as hell ISN'T the IRFU.

by wayne Thu Feb 20, 2014 5:09 pm

Just to add, when Fly has posted on very MANY occasions on here, when the HC was debated, when people have quoted Teams have to go through on a League basis, he has said he hasn't the slightest interest in the other countries Teams within the Rabo he is only interested in first his Team and then other Irish Teams, well I and the vast majority of Ospreys and people within the Supporters Groups who have been meeting with the RRW and the WRU feel the same about our Teams, we don't give a toss about the others within the Rabo, we're looking out for ourselves, which the WRU among others have patently NOT DONE.

by Guest Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:21 pm

wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies.

They aren't truly independent though, are they? More like a franchise operating under a particular brand, and operating in accordance with the rules, and regulations, the brand owners (IRB) set out.
Munchkin, you really need to do some research and understand what a Franchise system is, within Rugby Union no major NH country operates a Franchise system, they are only used in the SH, if there is any country within the NH that is as far away as possible from a Franchise as it is possible to be it is Wales, the teams below International level are Independent Companies, unlike Ireland and Scotland who are Owned by their National Unions, who could get rid of any of them at any time.

I honestly don't think I need to do the research, wayne. I didn't say they were franchises. I said more like a franchise. Simply to illustrate how as businesses they run under the brand of Rugby Union. If they really aren't happy being under the control of WRU or IRB, then they are free to play rugby outside of Union control. It just wouldn't be Rugby Union.
No, the WRU cannot get rid of the regions just any time. They do have contracts. At least until the end of this season anyway.
Munchkin, as I said unlike the IRFU, as they are nothing remotely like a Franchise, as for new contracts, who are getting what they wanted through the recent negotiations it sure as hell ISN'T the IRFU.

What has IRFU not getting what they wanted (whatever that means) have to do with this discussion? Something you felt you needed to say? Do you feel better?
wayne, instead of blaming everyone else for the regions problems, why not look a little closer to home - those who run the regions.

by Guest Thu Feb 20, 2014 8:23 pm

wayne wrote:Just to add, when Fly has posted on very MANY occasions on here, when the HC was debated, when people have quoted Teams have to go through on a League basis, he has said he hasn't the slightest interest in the other countries Teams within the Rabo he is only interested in first his Team and then other Irish Teams, well I and the vast majority of Ospreys and people within the Supporters Groups who have been meeting with the RRW and the WRU feel the same about our Teams, we don't give a toss about the others within the Rabo, were looking out for ourselves, which the WRU among others have patently NOT DONE.

by wayne Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:09 pm

Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies.

They aren't truly independent though, are they? More like a franchise operating under a particular brand, and operating in accordance with the rules, and regulations, the brand owners (IRB) set out.
Munchkin, you really need to do some research and understand what a Franchise system is, within Rugby Union no major NH country operates a Franchise system, they are only used in the SH, if there is any country within the NH that is as far away as possible from a Franchise as it is possible to be it is Wales, the teams below International level are Independent Companies, unlike Ireland and Scotland who are Owned by their National Unions, who could get rid of any of them at any time.

I honestly don't think I need to do the research, wayne. I didn't say they were franchises. I said more like a franchise. Simply to illustrate how as businesses they run under the brand of Rugby Union. If they really aren't happy being under the control of WRU or IRB, then they are free to play rugby outside of Union control. It just wouldn't be Rugby Union.
No, the WRU cannot get rid of the regions just any time. They do have contracts. At least until the end of this season anyway.
Munchkin, as I said unlike the IRFU, as they are nothing remotely like a Franchise, as for new contracts, who are getting what they wanted through the recent negotiations it sure as hell ISN'T the IRFU.

What has IRFU not getting what they wanted (whatever that means) have to do with this discussion? Something you felt you needed to say? Do you feel better?
wayne, instead of blaming everyone else for the regions problems, why not look a little closer to home - those who run the regions.

Munchkin, I've said this on these boards a number of times, I never go on the topics on these boards unless I or my teams are involved in the conversation, as primarily I do not know enough about the topic or the teams involved, if the topic interests me, I have been on such topics to ask a question to get a better understanding of the position, I would not have the temerity to go on these topics when I'm so uninformed, you should follow that example on this topic, as you have a very poor understanding of the issues involved

by Guest Thu Feb 20, 2014 9:18 pm

wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
wayne wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Wrong............ Regions play a coded game they don't own. They are servants to the code and therefore servants to the trademark owners (Unions)

If you will...one is direct ownership, the other is a franchise But even in a franchise, the trademark is owned by the owner and they want their cut and control.
You started with workers, now you're down to servants, before long you'll be down to serfs, that might be in your country, it NEVER will be here, Independent Companies.

They aren't truly independent though, are they? More like a franchise operating under a particular brand, and operating in accordance with the rules, and regulations, the brand owners (IRB) set out.
Munchkin, you really need to do some research and understand what a Franchise system is, within Rugby Union no major NH country operates a Franchise system, they are only used in the SH, if there is any country within the NH that is as far away as possible from a Franchise as it is possible to be it is Wales, the teams below International level are Independent Companies, unlike Ireland and Scotland who are Owned by their National Unions, who could get rid of any of them at any time.

I honestly don't think I need to do the research, wayne. I didn't say they were franchises. I said more like a franchise. Simply to illustrate how as businesses they run under the brand of Rugby Union. If they really aren't happy being under the control of WRU or IRB, then they are free to play rugby outside of Union control. It just wouldn't be Rugby Union.
No, the WRU cannot get rid of the regions just any time. They do have contracts. At least until the end of this season anyway.
Munchkin, as I said unlike the IRFU, as they are nothing remotely like a Franchise, as for new contracts, who are getting what they wanted through the recent negotiations it sure as hell ISN'T the IRFU.

What has IRFU not getting what they wanted (whatever that means) have to do with this discussion? Something you felt you needed to say? Do you feel better?
wayne, instead of blaming everyone else for the regions problems, why not look a little closer to home - those who run the regions.
Munchkin, I've said this on these boards a number of times, I never go on the topics on these boards unless I or my teams are involved in the conversation, as primarily I do not know enough about the topic or the teams involved, if the topic interests me, I have been on such topics to ask a question to get a better understanding of the position, I would not have the temerity to go on these topics when I'm so uninformed, you should follow that example on this topic, as you have a very poor understanding of the issues involved

I've heard the claim ' you just don't understand what's happening in Welsh rugby' quite a few times on some of the regions fans forums. They might be right of course, but then I think that if some of those same fans managed to extract their heads from very dark places, then maybe they could get to see the bigger picture. The bigger picture is not all about the regions.

Maybe if they quit whining so much they might have a more positive outlook......

....then again..maybe not.

Laters.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Feb 21, 2014 9:57 am

The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

by Allty Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:02 am

Chunks the Irish are doing quite well

Its Welsh regions that have the problems and its the regions that have to find the solutions

by Stone Motif Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:05 am

Munchkin wrote:
What has IRFU not getting what they wanted (whatever that means) have to do with this discussion? Something you felt you needed to say? Do you feel better?
wayne, instead of blaming everyone else for the regions problems, why not look a little closer to home - those who run the regions.

Munchkin wrote:
I've heard the claim ' you just don't understand what's happening in Welsh rugby' quite a few times on some of the regions fans forums. They might be right of course, but then I think that if some of those same fans managed to extract their heads from very dark places, then maybe they could get to see the bigger picture. The bigger picture is not all about the regions.

Maybe if they quit whining so much they might have a more positive outlook......

....then again..maybe not.

Laters.

Iesu mawr. You are quite happy to trot out the cliche above in bold (and in so doing prove that 'you just don't understand what's happening in Welsh rugby', lest we forget)?

Please by all means list where the regions are going wrong and creating problems for themselves given:

They have no control over their players
They have no control over their signings
They have no control over their branding
They have no control over their main income streams
They have no control over the crap, unattractive league they play in
They are not allowed to arrange extra fixtures
They are expressly told not to develop relationships with their own premier teams
Their own union tries to out-compete them for contracts
Their own union subsidises their Irish and Scottish competitors in the above crap league to their expense

I know you like a bit of Rog-speak, so how about we 'look forward, and reflect while looking forward, on that lot' for a minute, and explain how laying the fault at the regional management's door is anything but disingenuous?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:05 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Tell you what does make me laugh tho, its the number of rugby fans that have suddenly become sports BUSINESS experts overnight! All that wasted talent, who knew?! Laugh

by Stone Motif Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:08 am

Allty wrote:Chunks the Irish are doing quite well

Its Welsh regions that have the problems and its the regions that have to find the solutions

Never mind the fact that none of the means to put these solutions into practice are within the control of the regions.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:08 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Can you tell me the difference between what Scotland do now at pro level and what you think they should be doing?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:09 am

Stone Motif wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
What has IRFU not getting what they wanted (whatever that means) have to do with this discussion? Something you felt you needed to say? Do you feel better?
wayne, instead of blaming everyone else for the regions problems, why not look a little closer to home - those who run the regions.

Munchkin wrote:
I've heard the claim ' you just don't understand what's happening in Welsh rugby' quite a few times on some of the regions fans forums. They might be right of course, but then I think that if some of those same fans managed to extract their heads from very dark places, then maybe they could get to see the bigger picture. The bigger picture is not all about the regions.

Maybe if they quit whining so much they might have a more positive outlook......

....then again..maybe not.

Laters.

Iesu mawr. You are quite happy to trot out the cliche above in bold (and in so doing prove that 'you just don't understand what's happening in Welsh rugby', lest we forget)?

Please by all means list where the regions are going wrong and creating problems for themselves given:

They have no control over their players
They have no control over their signings
They have no control over their branding
They have no control over their main income streams
They have no control over the crap, unattractive league they play in
They are not allowed to arrange extra fixtures
They are expressly told not to develop relationships with their own premier teams
Their own union tries to out-compete them for contracts
Their own union subsidises their Irish and Scottish competitors in the above crap league to their expense

I know you like a bit of Rog-speak, so how about we 'look forward, and reflect while looking forward, on that lot' for a minute, and explain how laying the fault at the regional management's door is anything but disingenuous?

There was me thinking that I'd been hearing how the regions were separate stand-alone businesses yet it appears that they have no control over anything, nor any responsibilities?! And back in the real world...

PS Love that final touch that the WRU somehow subsidises the Irish provinces and the Scottish districts - pls don't respond with the TV revenue bollix again, as that was successfully put out to grass only the other day on another thread

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:12 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Can you tell me the difference between what Scotland do now at pro level and what you think they should be doing?

It's not just the pro districts that need fixing, Chunky, its the entire structure of the game in Scotland. For more details, pls consult: http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2014/02/5-key-points-for-fixing-scottish-rugby/ or https://www.606v2.com/t51911-the-scottish-international-rugby-thread

by Allty Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:12 am

[quote="Stone Motif"][quote="Allty"]Chunks the Irish are doing quite well

Its Welsh regions that have the problems and its the regions that have to find the solutions

[/quote]

Never mind the fact that none of the means to put these solutions into practice are within the control of the regions.[/quote]

Of course they have the means to resolve their problems. They are businesses and control the way they run thmselves

by Stone Motif Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:13 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Tell you what does make me laugh tho, its the number of rugby fans that have suddenly become sports BUSINESS experts overnight! All that wasted talent, who knew?!

Sorry, but 'they're alright, let's just copy what they're doing', is just nonsense.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:14 am

Allty wrote: They are businesses and control the way they run thmselves

^^^ Proof you haven't got a clue about Welsh rugby.

by Stone Motif Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:14 am

Allty wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Allty wrote:Chunks the Irish are doing quite well

Its Welsh regions that have the problems and its the regions that have to find the solutions

Never mind the fact that none of the means to put these solutions into practice are within the control of the regions.

Of course they have the means to resolve their problems. They are businesses and control the way they run thmselves

In what way do they control the way they run themselves? Risible, Roger-speak type of throwaway comment.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:15 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Can you tell me the difference between what Scotland do now at pro level and what you think they should be doing?

It's not just the pro districts that need fixing, Chunky, its the entire structure of the game in Scotland. For more details, pls consult: http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2014/02/5-key-points-for-fixing-scottish-rugby/ or https://www.606v2.com/t51911-the-scottish-international-rugby-thread

Scotland followed the Irish model at pro level. It has destroyed them.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:22 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Can you tell me the difference between what Scotland do now at pro level and what you think they should be doing?

It's not just the pro districts that need fixing, Chunky, its the entire structure of the game in Scotland. For more details, pls consult: http://www.scottishrugbyblog.co.uk/2014/02/5-key-points-for-fixing-scottish-rugby/ or https://www.606v2.com/t51911-the-scottish-international-rugby-thread

Scotland followed the Irish model at pro level. It has destroyed them.

It didn't in its entirety, and maybe therein lies part of the problem, but the structure of clubs, leagues and competitions is only a fraction of the problem - you also need to address development at all ages, schools and youth involvement, etc. Fixing just one of those is almost pointless until the rest are sorted too.

Also, altho the game is not in great shape in Scotland, given rugby's position in Scottish life, the number of adherents, etc., maybe it's accurately reflected in our world ranking?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:24 am

Stone Motif wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Tell you what does make me laugh tho, its the number of rugby fans that have suddenly become sports BUSINESS experts overnight! All that wasted talent, who knew?!

Sorry, but 'they're alright, let's just copy what they're doing', is just nonsense.

Stone, why are you averse to learning even 'something', no matter how small, from a model and structure, etc., that appears to have worked? Would that not be the intelligent thing to do? Of course, nobody is pretending that it would provide the entire solution, but let's honest, even small increments in the right direction would be welcome, surely?

by Guest Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:27 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

Well said that man Very Happy

by Stone Motif Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:27 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Tell you what does make me laugh tho, its the number of rugby fans that have suddenly become sports BUSINESS experts overnight! All that wasted talent, who knew?!

Sorry, but 'they're alright, let's just copy what they're doing', is just nonsense.

Stone, why are you averse to learning even 'something', no matter how small, from a model and structure, etc., that appears to have worked? Would that not be the intelligent thing to do? Of course, nobody is pretending that it would provide the entire solution, but let's honest, even small increments in the right direction would be welcome, surely?

Well, for starters, Ireland isn't totally reliant on the huge economy bolted on to it's eastern seaboard, is it?

How are 'models and structures' going to effect that?

by Allty Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:28 am

[quote="Stone Motif"][quote="Allty"][quote="Stone Motif"][quote="Allty"]Chunks the Irish are doing quite well

Its Welsh regions that have the problems and its the regions that have to find the solutions

[/quote]

Never mind the fact that none of the means to put these solutions into practice are within the control of the regions.[/quote]

Of course they have the means to resolve their problems. They are businesses and control the way they run thmselves[/quote]

In what way do they control the way they run themselves? Risible, Roger-speak type of throwaway comment.[/quote]

____________________________________

In the same way that any respectable successful business does.

by Stone Motif Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:29 am

Munchkin wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

Well said that man

They seem to be ok at getting a good deal off Roger, in any case.

by Stone Motif Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:30 am

Allty wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Allty wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
Allty wrote:Chunks the Irish are doing quite well

Its Welsh regions that have the problems and its the regions that have to find the solutions

Never mind the fact that none of the means to put these solutions into practice are within the control of the regions.

Of course they have the means to resolve their problems. They are businesses and control the way they run thmselves

In what way do they control the way they run themselves? Risible, Roger-speak type of throwaway comment.

____________________________________

In the same way that any respectable successful business does.

Again with the Roger-speak. Absurd.

by Chunky Norwich Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:32 am

Allty wrote:
In the same way that any respectable successful business does.

Have a read g'boi:

http://www.regionalrugbywales.com/q-a/

RRW is fighting for its Regions to have the right to control their own destiny. In an ever-changing landscape, it is crucial that, as independent, privately owned businesses, they are able to negotiate for themselves what competitions they play in and what revenue they can generate. On any objective level, it is difficult to comprehend why this should be controversial.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:43 am

Stone Motif wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Stone Motif wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:The Irish know everything. They have all the solutions.

Chunky, they don't, nor have they claimed to, to my knowledge, nor has anyone else on their behalf - however, they do appear to have one model that appears to be working fairly well, perhapss something could be learned from it by those countries where things aren't quite so rosy? ie Scotland, Wales, etc.

Tell you what does make me laugh tho, its the number of rugby fans that have suddenly become sports BUSINESS experts overnight! All that wasted talent, who knew?!

Sorry, but 'they're alright, let's just copy what they're doing', is just nonsense.

Stone, why are you averse to learning even 'something', no matter how small, from a model and structure, etc., that appears to have worked? Would that not be the intelligent thing to do? Of course, nobody is pretending that it would provide the entire solution, but let's honest, even small increments in the right direction would be welcome, surely?

Well, for starters, Ireland isn't totally reliant on the huge economy bolted on to it's eastern seaboard, is it?

How are 'models and structures' going to effect that?

Hmm, hadn't heard that one before - but are you saying that part of the problem with Welsh rugby is the state of the Welsh economy or the Welsh economy relative to the UK? Has the Irish economy not been in worse shape in fact?

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:44 am

Chunky Norwich wrote:
Allty wrote:
In the same way that any respectable successful business does.

Have a read g'boi:

http://www.regionalrugbywales.com/q-a/

RRW is fighting for its Regions to have the right to control their own destiny. In an ever-changing landscape, it is crucial that, as independent, privately owned businesses, they are able to negotiate for themselves what competitions they play in and what revenue they can generate. On any objective level, it is difficult to comprehend why this should be controversial.

But they're not, right? Isn't that the point? They want to behave like them, but they're stuck in a sort of half-way house?

by Chunky Norwich Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:52 am

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
Chunky Norwich wrote:
Allty wrote:
In the same way that any respectable successful business does.

Have a read g'boi:

http://www.regionalrugbywales.com/q-a/

RRW is fighting for its Regions to have the right to control their own destiny. In an ever-changing landscape, it is crucial that, as independent, privately owned businesses, they are able to negotiate for themselves what competitions they play in and what revenue they can generate. On any objective level, it is difficult to comprehend why this should be controversial.

But they're not, right? Isn't that the point? They want to behave like them, but they're stuck in a sort of half-way house?

No they are. But they are unfortunately earmarked for destruction by the very people who have been put in place to support them.

by Guest Fri Feb 21, 2014 10:55 am

Stone Motif wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
What has IRFU not getting what they wanted (whatever that means) have to do with this discussion? Something you felt you needed to say? Do you feel better?
wayne, instead of blaming everyone else for the regions problems, why not look a little closer to home - those who run the regions.

Munchkin wrote:
I've heard the claim ' you just don't understand what's happening in Welsh rugby' quite a few times on some of the regions fans forums. They might be right of course, but then I think that if some of those same fans managed to extract their heads from very dark places, then maybe they could get to see the bigger picture. The bigger picture is not all about the regions.

Maybe if they quit whining so much they might have a more positive outlook......

....then again..maybe not.

Laters.

Iesu mawr. You are quite happy to trot out the cliche above in bold (and in so doing prove that 'you just don't understand what's happening in Welsh rugby', lest we forget)?

Please by all means list where the regions are going wrong and creating problems for themselves given:

They have no control over their players
They have no control over their signings
They have no control over their branding
They have no control over their main income streams
They have no control over the crap, unattractive league they play in
They are not allowed to arrange extra fixtures
They are expressly told not to develop relationships with their own premier teams
Their own union tries to out-compete them for contracts
Their own union subsidises their Irish and Scottish competitors in the above crap league to their expense

I know you like a bit of Rog-speak, so how about we 'look forward, and reflect while looking forward, on that lot' for a minute, and explain how laying the fault at the regional management's door is anything but disingenuous?

"They have no control over their players" Not true.

"They have no control over their signings" Not true.

"They have no control over their branding" You would need to explain this one in a bit more detail.

"They have no control over their main income streams" True, but then that's what they signed up for.

"They have no control over the crap, unattractive league they play in" Not true. They can go away and play with themselves, or more practically, put more effort into making the Rabo more attractive by being more competitive. Also, it might help if the RRW, and some of their supporters, would stop attempting to tarnish the reputation of Rabo by whining about it so much. A genuine cliche for you; - 'you only get out what you put in'.

"They are not allowed to arrange extra fixtures" Then make the best of what they have. If the extra fixtures are to help fund the regions then maybe they should really be focusing more on attracting more support. Bums on seats.

"They are expressly told not to develop relationships with their own premier teams" What have WRU specifically stated about that?

"Their own union tries to out-compete them for contracts" The WRU daring to pay fully for some of the regions players in order to keep them in the regions, and playing for Wales. Scandalous I say!

"Their own union subsidises their Irish and Scottish competitors in the above crap league to their expense" laughing

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