What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales
 

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

PenfroPete wrote:Cheers Dave - keep us posted (can't get access to Twitter in the office !!)

I'll try and my guess is the meeting will be over once the smoked salmon and danish pasties have all gone, with no agreement of course.
I'm intrigued to know how Moffett knows actually.

Outstanding stuff from the vertically challenged WRU bloke at the Fail.
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/ospreys-humiliated-zebre-last-nights-7065623

Stumbled across this today. Can't find any other info though.

Robin Davey ‏@robindavey01 19 hrs
Regions have written to the WRU informing them their current terms are unacceptable
https://twitter.com/robindavey01

Not seen it elsewhere myself, I thought that was old news ?

munkian wrote:Not seen it elsewhere myself, I thought that was old news ?

Posted yesterday. Same old, same old news as ever. Going down to the wire by the look of things.

Wish this EGM actually happens sooner than later, all wrapped up nicely before the new season like.

Never gonna happen mind

The news front on all this fuss has gone dead. It seems like they have forgot the issue.
It's scary still not knowing what is going to happen next season. I hate the current era of regional welsh rugby, no wonder so why so many fans have lost is faith

If the Regions find the WRU offer unacceptable what options do they have otherwise -other than the go nuclear option of shutting the clubs down and leaving Wales with no professional clubs? They can't join the English league, they can't drop down into the Welsh Premiership so where would they go?

It's (supposedly) a question of folding now or continuing on and either

1) putting time and effort into something that cannot survive
2) putting huge amounts of their own money into something to keep it going.

As an aside to all this, the WRU have recently set up a Touch Rugby league to run through the summer...even thouse the Welsh Touch Association has been running one for the last 10 years. They've even said that last year they had the WRU come along and worked with them only for them to set up a new one this year as direct competition.

They want to control EVERY facet of the game in wales, it's ridiculous. Yes clubs feel disenfranchised about the regional set up, some more vocal than others, but the only way anything will happen is for an EGM to be called.

How clubs can sit back and be content with the WRU is beyond me. Clubs ceasing to exist, fewer 2nds teams, the farce with the leagues, the pro rugby debacle and now undercutting a very successful touch rugby scheme just so they can have their own.

Touch rugby mentioned in the link below plus IRWTV (Inside Rugby Wales), who the WRU have also managed to upset.

"Putting greed before the good of the game"
http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1502

Irish Londoner wrote:If the Regions find the WRU offer unacceptable what options do they have otherwise -other than the go nuclear option of shutting the clubs down and leaving Wales with no professional clubs? They can't join the English league, they can't drop down into the Welsh Premiership so where would they go?

It's more a question of what options do the WRU have? RRW are now signatories to the RCC so cannot be excluded from the Pro 12, the WRU need to put Roger in an unmarked grave somewhere, clear out the Methuselahs on the Board and appoint someone who is not willing to pimp our 'national game' out to theatre goers every February whilst it dies from grassroots up.

Moffett is back in Wales next week according to twitter. Deadline for clubs requesting an EGM is Saturday 17 aka tomorrow. I'm so excited I could crush a grape.

May you live in interesting times

Cardiff Dave wrote:Moffett is back in Wales next week according to twitter. Deadline for clubs requesting an EGM is Saturday 17 aka tomorrow. I'm so excited I could crush a grape.

As a Cardiff boi, I doubt you have the upper body strength to attempt this, no matter how exited you get. Maybe an arm wrestle with Rog might be more your level? Winner gets the keys to the new Rogions.

He didn't say he would use his upper body.

Stone Motif wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:Moffett is back in Wales next week according to twitter. Deadline for clubs requesting an EGM is Saturday 17 aka tomorrow. I'm so excited I could crush a grape.

As a Cardiff boi, I doubt you have the upper body strength to attempt this, no matter how exited you get.  Maybe an arm wrestle with Rog might be more your level?  Winner gets the keys to the new Rogions.

Strange post although I have to say i've never actually crushed a grape before.
Anyway i'm backing Moffett and hoping for an end to the regional nonsense.

HammerofThunor wrote:He didn't say he would use his upper body.

I'd use my car of course.

There's me thinking you had buns of steel

HammerofThunor wrote:There's me thinking you had buns of steel

Steady on!

Staggering stuff.....

Regions 'staggered' at lack of progress on fresh WRU deal as clock ticks on current agreement

REGIONAL Rugby Wales chief executive Mark Davies says he is "staggered" that there is still no sign of a deal being struck with the Welsh Rugby Union over a fresh participation agreement.

The existing accord ends on June 30, less than six weeks away, and the relationship between the two parties appears to be as strained as ever.

An unsightly squabble was avoided when RRW, the body that represents Newport Gwent Dragons, the Scarlets, Ospreys and Cardiff Blues, decided not to kick up a fuss over the upcoming Wales trial at the Liberty Stadium.

The quartet were not approached over the use of their players for a game outside the IRB's Test window and squad members were emailed directly by the Wales management.

RRW opted not to take action for fear of it appearing that they do not want the national team to succeed but the incident serves to highlight the tension.
And Davies, the acting head of RRW, issued a stark warning to those hoping that a deal would be imminent following an end to the spat over European rugby.

"In terms of how things are going, they are not," he said. "I am not any more confident (of a swift resolution) than I have been for over two years.
"We still don't appear to be making any meaningful progress. In that context we are really not in charge of the timescales and any action that takes place. In reality you need to ask the WRU."

"The end of the current deal is the unknown," he continued. "The reality is that it puts all of the five businesses – including the Union – in an untenable position.

"I am staggered that we find ourselves in that position with 40 days to go given everything that we have attempted over the past two-and-a-half years.

"In order to reach any agreement between two parties, each party has to have a genuine will to reach that agreement and a deep and honest understanding of the other party's needs.

"It's no different to anything else. It shouldn't be complex and it shouldn't be hard."

Meetings have been taking place since the turn of the year between WRU chief executive Roger Lewis and RRW chairman Nigel Short with judge Sir Wyn Williams acting as mediator.

But it was to the frustration of the regions that a request by the full board of the Union for them to make a presentation failed to happen.

"We agreed as long as it was a two-way dialogue, not what we experienced last time," said Davies. "The day before that was due to take place we were asked by the (WRU) executive to meet with them instead which we agreed to do on the basis there was a commitment that the meeting was to at last constructively deal with the facts. It didn't.

"We presume we will now have another request from the board to engage with them but we don't know and I am sure a proportion of them will soon be in South Africa. Perhaps that's a priority."

The WRU opted not to comment on the progress of talks but chairman David Pickering stressed at the start of the month that they were keen to find a solution.

"We want to do a deal with the regions and will do everything we can to facilitate it," he said. "It's very important to us because they are an integral part of our structure."


http://www.southwalesargus.co.uk/sport/11226041.Regions___39_staggered__39__at_lack_of_progress_on_fresh_WRU_deal_as_clock_ticks_on_current_agreement/

The quartet were not approached over the use of their players for a game outside the IRB's Test window and squad members were emailed directly by the Wales management.

That is. just. Wow

lostinwales wrote:

The quartet were not approached over the use of their players for a game outside the IRB's Test window and squad members were emailed directly by the Wales management.

That is. just. Wow

Absolutely disgusting aqctions by a disgusting organisation.

Are we surprised though? Probably/possibly not...

"WRU accused of showing contempt" [17 October 2008]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_union/welsh/7674876.stm

Possible EGM announcement tomorrow.

David Moffett ‏@moffettrugby 22 hrs
Heading back to Wales for Media Conference to be held at Holiday Inn, Cardiff City Centre on Thursday at 11am.

David Moffett ‏@moffettrugby 6 hrs
I’ve moved the Media Conference to 2PM (same day same venue) to avoid a clash with FAW/ Chris Coleman presser.

It's got to be the apocalypse if you guys all want Moffet back.  Half his manifesto is nonsense. If we manage to get him everyone at all levels of the game is going to get more.  Not sure where all this extra cash will come from mind you and I'm doubting he will reduce his own over the top salary when he gets in.  Call me sceptical.  

Not to mention the total waste of money on calling an EGM which could actually be used to help out amateur club rugby.  

I'm not against a changing of the guard but I certainly think jobs at the WRU should be to high profile to start hiring people who have previously held it.  Surely there are plenty of top quality candidates in the world who would be more suitable than Moffet? Its not like he has even shown great sticking power in any job he has held in rugby managing a few years at most with both Australian rugby and New Zealand rugby.

Surely we would be looking for a committed long term replacement?  Last thing we need now is another haywire 3 years only to start all this again.

Wouldn't an EGM be called to potentially vote out the current crop, not necessarily bring Moffet in. It could be any one.

Welshmushroom wrote:It's got to be the apocalypse if you guys all want Moffet back.  Half his manifesto is nonsense. If we manage to get him everyone at all levels of the game is going to get more.  Not sure where all this extra cash will come from mind you and I'm doubting he will reduce his own over the top salary when he gets in.  Call me sceptical.  

Not to mention the total waste of money on calling an EGM which could actually be used to help out amateur club rugby.  

I'm not against a changing of the guard but I certainly think jobs at the WRU should be to high profile to start hiring people who have previously held it.  Surely there are plenty of top quality candidates in the world who would be more suitable than Moffet? Its not like he has even shown great sticking power in any job he has held in rugby managing a few years at most with both Australian rugby and New Zealand rugby.

Surely we would be looking for a committed long term replacement?  Last thing we need now is another haywire 3 years only to start all this again.

No it aint mun. The end of the world was Dec 31 last year if you remember.
Anyway, as has been pointed out, a call for an EGM is not a vote for Moffett or anyone else for that matter. That'll come later, hopefully and Gareth Davies would be my choice.

Gareth Davies speaks on IWRTV;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU0lO0ZqUGM

Cardiff Dave wrote:Gareth Davies speaks on IWRTV;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HU0lO0ZqUGM

Again. It seems like it's a continuing case of "We all need to agree with each other and trust each other... but we don't trust them and we don't and won't be agreeing with them"

I'm still only 13min in but if the regions are forbidden to have any role with their local community rugby then there really is no point to them. They will never grow support, never act as regional teams until they are integrated with community rugby (assuming Gareth Davies isn't lying).

If it's requirement of the proposed PA there is no point the regions signing it. They might as well just kill themselves to allow the union to do what it wants.

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm still only 13min in but if the regions are forbidden to have any role with their local community rugby then there really is no point to them. They will never grow support, never act as regional teams until they are integrated with community rugby (assuming Gareth Davies isn't lying).

If it's requirement of the proposed PA there is no point the regions signing it. They might as well just kill themselves to allow the union to do what it wants.

Gareth is the guy most animated in the theory that they all (WRU and Regions) must agree with and talk to and cooperate with each other...but first the WRU must agree that it's wrong and that the Regions are right. I find it hard to see where he's leaving any token space for the WRU to say "We agree with you on that one".

David Moffet has the 50+ votes required from the clubs to call for an emergency general meeting at the WRU.

He plans to take them over after his press conference

This sh*t just got real

Roger is a dead man walking, hopefully Pickering too

Looks like any meeting to try and oust Lewis will be after the PA deadline.

What are the implications of that?

EGM has to be within 21 days of vote.

I don't think the EGM can actually sack Lewis, he'd have to resign.

SecretFly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I'm still only 13min in but if the regions are forbidden to have any role with their local community rugby then there really is no point to them. They will never grow support, never act as regional teams until they are integrated with community rugby (assuming Gareth Davies isn't lying).

If it's requirement of the proposed PA there is no point the regions signing it. They might as well just kill themselves to allow the union to do what it wants.

Gareth is the guy most animated in the theory that they all (WRU and Regions) must agree with and talk to and cooperate with each other...but first the WRU must agree that it's wrong and that the Regions are right.   I find it hard to see where he's leaving any token space for the WRU to say "We agree with you on that one".  

The WRU would have to agree to talk to the regions first, but often the WRU have been reluctant to do so which I found to be strange and a tad sinister actually. I'll remind you of what Gareth Davies said on new years day, pitchside at CAP alongside Richard Holland, live on telly. He said that the 4 had met up, drafted a list of 6 issues they wished to discuss and put them to the WRU. The response was "not up for discussion" and GD accused the WRU of being "unreasonable". Quite extraordinary.

munkian wrote:EGM has to be within 21 days of vote.

I don't think the EGM can actually sack Lewis, he'd have to resign.

Could you please explain this. I don't really understand corporate structure or the way the WRU works. I know we've got ~320 member clubs, I believe each of them has a vote. 50 seems gets the EGM on the adjenda. In a best/worst case senario depending how you feel about the men in charge. What can happen as a result of the EGM.

Coleman - I'll have to do this in generalisation as I can't find the WRU constitution on line.
The normal process for an organisation (assuming the WRU is "normal") is that under the constitution, the tipping point for calling an EGM is when "X" number of members/shareholders (in this case the WRU affiliated clubs) sign a request for one.
The committee then have a specifed number of days to arrange this - i.e. sort a venue and time and publish an agenda including any specific items on the EGM request.
The EGM then takes place and everyone gets their say, depending on the constitution the WRU may be able to exclude Moffet from the meeting unless he is an elected officer of a member club.
Although the members cannot sack Lewis directly if they were able to get a vote of no confidence passed against him personally or the whole of the WRU governing body he would be pretty much obliged to resign and the postitions would be up for grabs.
There is of course nothing to stop Lewis or any other offiicial restanding for the jobs providing it's not specifically forbidden in the constitution or indeed another party to contest between Lewis and Moffet for any jobs if the position is appointed through an open recruitment process they would have to advertise and so on.

I'm with you, thanks. Surpised more clubs arent up in arms about the league restructure. If you're in 4, 5 or 6 it's a pretty bad deal to be honest. Only having 50 letters seems very low.

Coleman wrote:I'm with you, thanks. Surpised more clubs arent up in arms about the league restructure. If you're in 4, 5 or 6 it's a pretty bad deal to be honest. Only having 50 letters seems very low.

I think clubs were scared of sticking their heads above the parapet. When you have clubs in fear of THEIR union you know something aint right

My understanding is that Roger's position is an independent position.  It cannot be filled by anyone at the EGM.  In fact the pre-requisite for the job role was to be totally independent.

Pickering is the role they will be putting under review essentially as he is Chairman of the board of directors and essentially the man to make the final cut for Rogers post.  

The only way Roger would be under threat if a replacement is named for Pickering and that replacement removes him.  Would imagine that would probably yield a big executive pay out to Roger.  

I don't think the EGM will be a overthrowing of the guard as only a few roles are electable.  Half the board is not voted on because corporate rules indicate independent people have also got to be present within the WRU structure.

There is something floating about that Woger leant a lot of money to his old club that wasn't by the book.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him thrown under the wheels

munkian wrote:There is something floating about that Woger leant a lot of money to his old club that wasn't by the book.

I wouldn't be surprised to see him thrown under the wheels

"Charity begins at home"......
http://gwladrugby.com/?p=1515

So we could be in for an even longer wait before agreement is reached. Jeez....

"Mark Orders' Q&A with Ospreys chief executive Andrew Hore — your questions answered"

"I can't see things really moving until there's a need for the WRU to get desperate — and that could be as late as November when they are going to want to use our players for Wales's extra autumn Test."
Read more at http://www.southwales-eveningpost.co.uk/Mark-Orders-Q-amp-Ospreys-chief-executive-Andrew/story-21146354-detail/story.html#FuzFzkVyAz1ImV35.99

Welshmushroom wrote:My understanding is that Roger's position is an independent position.  It cannot be filled by anyone at the EGM.  In fact the pre-requisite for the job role was to be totally independent.

Pickering is the role they will be putting under review essentially as he is Chairman of the board of directors and essentially the man to make the final cut for Rogers post.  

The only way Roger would be under threat if a replacement is named for Pickering and that replacement removes him.  Would imagine that would probably yield a big executive pay out to Roger.  

I don't think the EGM will be a overthrowing of the guard as only a few roles are electable.  Half the board is not voted on because corporate rules indicate independent people have also got to be present within the WRU structure.

The following will do for starters WM and about bloody time too;

"The WRU welcomes the opportunity to address the issues raised by the clubs through an open and well informed debate," a WRU statement said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/27524100

I'm guessing, but I spose this proposal will be rejected. Or will it, I have no idea.

"With regard to the Service Agreement with the WRU, the Regions confirm that this afternoon (Friday May 23rd), they have received a further proposal sent from the Chairman of the WRU, which they will now evaluate carefully as a matter of urgency. The current agreement ends on 30th June, in just 38 days time."

http://www.regionalrugbywales.com/2014/05/23/welsh-regions-support-clubs-request-open-debate-wru-egm/

WRU letter to clubs;
http://files.pitchero.com/counties/12/1400921539.pdf

Moffett's response to WRU letter;
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s1tbb8

Cardiff Dave wrote:Moffett's response to WRU letter;
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s1tbb8

CD, the part about the £3.2M was on the Os forum last night, well done for putting these on this Forum, I still bet the WRU apologists will follow like sheep.