What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

by ScarletSpiderman Mon 06 Jan 2014, 10:24 am

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case? It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

by Coleman Wed 28 May 2014, 9:06 am

Surely what has happend with the funding at Cefn Cribwr is illegal?

by munkian Wed 28 May 2014, 9:12 am

Not sure of the legality but its bent as FIFA

by SecretFly Wed 28 May 2014, 9:15 am

Cardiff Dave wrote:Moffett's response to WRU letter;
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s1tbb8

Another VOTEforME pamphlet from Moffett? Gotta say, I didn't see that one coming! He surprised us with that 'response' from out of the blue - even though the WRU weren't talking to him in the first place... Whistle

He's usually so taciturn. Wink

by Sin é Wed 28 May 2014, 10:38 am

Moffat wrote:2. In an extraordinary claim, the signatories, including David Pickering attest to inaccuracies in the accounts prior to the arrival of the new Executive team in 2007. They particularly say ‘In 2007 the new management team forensically found £3.2m in claimed assets which had to be written off due to inaccuracies in previous annual accounts”. David Pickering seems to have forgotten that he signed off on those externally AUDITED accounts as being accurate. In addition the then and current Chairman of the Finance Committee Martin Davies approved the accounts. Quite tellingly most of the existing board members also signed off on the accounts at the relevant Board meetings.

Not sure why he is making a big deal about this. Board's generally trust their auditors and its not unusual for companies to write off stuff like this at a later stage. Its only a problem if you don't when you do know there is a problem with it.

by XR Wed 28 May 2014, 12:49 pm

I wonder why the cefn cribbwr story hasn't been written in the wider wider media? Headscratch

But then again, this is only a loan which CCRFC will have to pay back...if they find sufficient invetories.

This makes very poor reading for those, like myself, who are members of rugby clubs who have less than decent clubhouse facilities.

by Coleman Wed 28 May 2014, 2:57 pm

All things aside, this should be a really big scandal shouldnt it? I mean, he's basically diverted funds to directly fund his own club's improvments. Somewhere, someone has to have broken the law for this to happen.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 28 May 2014, 4:43 pm

Never thought Welsh rugby could get any murkier than it already was, but it seems it just has and further murk today in fact if anyone wants to check out twitter. Think we need Woodward and Bernstein on the case.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 28 May 2014, 4:47 pm

Sin é wrote:
Moffat wrote:2. In an extraordinary claim, the signatories, including David Pickering attest to inaccuracies in the accounts prior to the arrival of the new Executive team in 2007. They particularly say ‘In 2007 the new management team forensically found £3.2m in claimed assets which had to be written off due to inaccuracies in previous annual accounts”. David Pickering seems to have forgotten that he signed off on those externally AUDITED accounts as being accurate. In addition the then and current Chairman of the Finance Committee Martin Davies approved the accounts. Quite tellingly most of the existing board members also signed off on the accounts at the relevant Board meetings.

Not sure why he is making a big deal about this. Board's generally trust their auditors and its not unusual for companies to write off stuff like this at a later stage. Its only a problem if you don't when you do know there is a problem with it.

Because the WRU seemed to have a dig at him in their letter. More of this to come methinks in the coming weeks.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 28 May 2014, 4:54 pm

Another WRU/RRW meeting! Fabulous!

David Moffett ‏@moffettrugby May 27
Unless WRU cancel it once again, there is a meeting between Board and Regions on Thurs, love to be a fly on wall for that one

by Cardiff Dave Wed 28 May 2014, 5:04 pm

SecretFly wrote:
Cardiff Dave wrote:Moffett's response to WRU letter;
http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1s1tbb8

Another VOTEforME pamphlet from Moffett? Gotta say, I didn't see that one coming! He surprised us with that 'response' from out of the blue - even though the WRU weren't talking to him in the first place...

He's usually so taciturn.

Say what you like about Moffett, but he's certainly rattled the cage that needed rattling, big time when nobody else was prepared to do so.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 28 May 2014, 5:08 pm

munkian wrote:Not sure of the legality but its bent as FIFA

Qatar being awarded the 2022 footy world cup was funny.

by Cardiff Dave Wed 28 May 2014, 5:56 pm

gcBlues wrote:I wonder why the cefn cribbwr story hasn't been written in the wider wider media?

But then again, this is only a loan which CCRFC will have to pay back...if they find sufficient invetories.

This makes very poor reading for those, like myself, who are members of rugby clubs who have less than decent clubhouse facilities.

by stourjim Wed 28 May 2014, 7:33 pm

I always feel embarrassed when I see the crowds at English and Irish matches and then see the mass of empty seats at our Regional matches. We get what we pay for and if we are not prepared to support our region we cannot complain when they cannot afford to keep their best players. I am a gwent exile and remember when gwent sides were respected members of the Western Mail Unofficial table of the 14 leading Welsh clubs. I even remember Abertillery Park being packed full (rumoured 30,000 gate) when Abertillery played Pontypool in the 1930's. We have a national team to be proud of but I fear for the future with the team members scattered over Europe. Can it be that our rugby supporters prefer to watch the tele or is it poor marketing by the regions - perhaps organising subsidised buses/trains, returning an hour after the match end to give supporters a chance to chat about the match and provide a useful bar profit for the regions. It is right that the regions should receive financial support from the WRU as theyare the providers of Welsh players but we, the rugby enthusiasts, have a responsibility too - an extra 5,000 through the gates would make life easier.

by bedfordwelsh Wed 28 May 2014, 9:05 pm

Attendances are a worry but I wonder what crowds the English would get if say Bath and Gloucester were merged or Saints and Tigers etc etc. Old wounds still run deep within a lot Wales about the way Regionalism was set up and for some those wounds won't heal.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 8:48 am

I don't worry that much what with the population of England and the decent club set ups of Ireland. Plus certain clubs fill their grounds with plastic fans anyway

by SecretFly Thu 29 May 2014, 9:13 am

Blow up doll fans???? No wonder the Munster fans always look happy even when losing.

by geoff998rugby Thu 29 May 2014, 9:21 am

munkian wrote: Plus certain clubs fill their grounds with plastic fans anyway

Who do you have in mind Wink

One thing that would worry me is how cheap Welsh tickets are compared to others.
Did a bit of a fag packet maths recently and roughly Ulster crowds are likely to be double those of the Regions but in addition
the average ticket price is double as well.

That is 4 times the revenue; add that to the greater merchandise sales and that is some disadvantage, even if the
Welsh teams get the same level of support from their Union as the Irish currently do.

by SecretFly Thu 29 May 2014, 9:25 am

geoff998rugby wrote:
munkian wrote: Plus certain clubs fill their grounds with plastic fans anyway

Who do you have in mind

One thing that would worry me is how cheap Welsh tickets are compared to others.
Did a bit of a fag packet maths recently and roughly Ulster crowds are likely to be double those of the Regions but in addition
the average ticket price is double as well.

That is 4 times the revenue; add that to the greater merchandise sales and that is some disadvantage, even if the
Welsh teams get the same level of support from their Union as the Irish currently do.

We also pay double for cars! (well at least in the South we do) but that's a whole other tale of 'Double'.

by SecretFly Thu 29 May 2014, 9:29 am

But that's a interesting and serious point Geoff, when I get serious about it.

Humans are strange people at the best of times and Premium brands are premium for a reason mostly - and mostly the reason is to create emotions of desire.

If something is dirt cheap, the emotion seems to be that it isn't always worth the cheap price. But if something is priced higher, the urge amongst us dumb humans is that we 'want it' - we need it - we gotta get it before our neighbours do!!! - and so on and so on.

So when you value down your product to get traction and customers......... it sometimes actually works counter-intuitively and the other way round.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 10:04 am

Irish clubs also have the benefit of having their best players playing for them. Why would Welsh fans pay a premium to watch teams bereft of international stars ?

Its a nightmare really, we can't afford to keep players, we won't get more crowd revenue as we haven't got the stars to attract them. I'm not sure how we'll ever sort the regional game out.

by SecretFly Thu 29 May 2014, 10:18 am

munkian... 'best players' playing shyte rugby is still a yawn and I guarantee you, it/they aren't the draw. The draw is the team, playing with the intention of being at the business end of playoffs at the end of the season. And I think most Irish fans (despite the moans and groans about some games) accept that pacing is a part of being there at the end. And I believe, even with the new structures in place to make getting into Europe more difficult, that appreciation of the need for pacing through a year will still be there amongst Irish fans.

So, in short, we perhaps appreciate seasonal craftiness more than the Welsh, who seem to much prefer simply to be entertained week in and week out by open, always honest, expansive play and don't seem to value the holding-back hand that Irish sides can often engage in.

So I don't think it's about famous/best players attracting crowds, it's that Irish provincial fans tend to be trusting that their Provinces are out to plot and plan a successful season - sometimes that's showboat stuff, sometimes it's an absolute borefest. But the fans come and stay for the long term overview.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 10:19 am

Some good points there. League and Cup success also attracts the big SH players too

by geoff998rugby Thu 29 May 2014, 10:44 am

Ulster had better crowds than 3 Welsh provinces when they were contesting last place with Connacht.

The Welsh need to break the cycle - they need Keynesian tactics not Friedman ones.

Increase prices, only pick Welsh national teams from Welsh based players (ignoring current contracts) but do something or die.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 11:03 am

Problem is that not only does Wales have a small population its that the regions are all based down saaaath so the population centres are over saturated. You also have a lot of people going to local club games plus the Rabbo games are on at sh*te times.

London can easily support 3-4 teams - 2 x the population of Wales plus a hell of a lot more disposable income and transport links.

Putting up prices is all well and good but some areas of South Wales are some of the poorest in the UK.

by geoff998rugby Thu 29 May 2014, 11:15 am

True but Northern Ireland is hardly an area of economic prosperity

by HammerofThunor Thu 29 May 2014, 11:18 am

Hull support one pro football team and two pro rugby league teams. The population is about 250000 and when I looked a couple of years ago they were getting 20000 to see Hull city on average (while in Championship) and a combined 20000 for the Rugby League. And it's a massively deprived area.

The issue is Wales is it has all this AND they're new teams that no-one had any attachment to beyond that they've been desingated to certain areas. Add in the way it turned out with some clubs threatening legal action and getting their own way, it's a nightmare. But two main things needed were

1) More integration with the 'Region' they're supposed to cover (which they're apparantly not allowed by the WRU)

2) Significant additional investment to cover them while building a support base (from private investors rather than the WRU for a long time).

Basically the whole thing was a :cuss up. I still think the WRU are planning for 2021 when the MS is paid off. Whether it would be with the current regions as they are or with more WRU involvement or entire new entities I don't know.

One thing that 'should' happen is regional boards governing rugby in each of the regions, with the Regions heavily involved. Never going to grow a supporter base without direct links to the community game.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 11:19 am

No but it loves getting behind something. Is there still a lot of football supporters going to Ulster games now they are usually at the top of the league table ?

by geoff998rugby Thu 29 May 2014, 11:26 am

Not in great numbers from what I can see - the football fans are more likely to get on a plane/boat to Glasgow or England.

What I do see is previous armchair supporters going to matches (TV coverage by BBC NI has been a big boost), also surveys suggest we are reaching a wider audience than before. The % of women going has increased in recent years.
Also it is now seen as an inclusive sport ad no longer a protestant bastion (recent survey indicated 25%+ were catholics).

I also sense a pride in our only local professional team that plays its sport at the top level (the hockey is neither top level and is played by mercenary players with no local identity)

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 11:33 am

Ah cool, good stuff then Very Happy

I was just wondering as I had a run in with a drunk Ulster 'fan' in Newport. My NI mate believed he was just a drunk football fan and there seemed to be an influx of them since Ulster rugby were on the up.

The only positive at the moment is that I can't see the Welsh regions doing any worse next year. And we will hopefully have a WRU board clear out

by SecretFly Thu 29 May 2014, 12:02 pm

WRU board clear out means Ireland once again will have to be alert to everything that's happening in Welsh rugby behind the scenes.... we're already exhausted from this pre-new Europe PRL BT Vision stint!

But a WRU clear out will mean that Mr Moffett has assumed a degree of official influence - and then he'll set about his project of returning Welsh club/regional rugby to their more spiritual home of a domestic League with their English friends (very much their right to seek that out BTW if that's what they feel would bring more success and interest). Moffett made mumbling sounds then about such a competition not leaving the Irish and Scots behind (nice of him, him being an English born Australian and all that Wink

), and that the scenario would invite them in to something British Islesy in Nature.

Hmmmm............ being invited to British Islesy parties always has subtle nuances for me about degrees of equality, inclusiveness and power. So the IRFU will have to track Moffett (if indeed he becomes more relevant to Welsh rugby again) and his movements with the zeal of the CIA to uncover the kind of future he's trying to unearth and who he's chatting to.

Because what might be good for Welsh or English rugby into the future (as is their right again) won't necessarily help or assist Irish rugby. Junior partnerships in PRL led lawfirms won't float my boat and, as I say, the mumbling of Moffett that he'd 'invite' Ireland to anything means a downgrading from where we are now - invited to nothing but what we've already invited ourselves to on sheer hard work, industry and proven merit.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 12:04 pm

SecretFly makes it all about oireland 'shocker' Wink

by Sin é Thu 29 May 2014, 12:16 pm

Munkian - its not just about Wales though. The carry-on in Wales is affecting the other teams involved in the Pro12. Why would anyone want to have anything to do with the league when take into account how much effort the Welsh regions have put into destroying its reputation?

By the way - how many Welsh clubs are there? I believe something like 50 wanted to have the EGM. How many didn't support the calling of an EGM? Knowing that will give you a fair idea as to the fate of the board of the WRU.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 12:20 pm

Sin, as I said earlier, it usually takes a couple of brave men to stick their necks out to get the rest of the herd to follow.

The only way its affecting the other teams is its probably making the regions less competitive. What are the regions supposed to do ? Roll over so posters on Munsterrugbyfans have to find someone else to vilify ?

by Sin é Thu 29 May 2014, 12:30 pm

The Welsh fans & regions have been slagging off the Pro 12 claiming it is a poor league. How do you try and sell that to sponsors? It does affect the other teams negatively. Having non competitive Welsh teams means that the league is less attractive to sponsors & media as well, apart from the fact that no one knows what is going to happen.

I wouldn't see it as a big deal having an EGM. Most people wouldn't object to it.

How many Welsh clubs are there? Its far more informative to know how many didn't support the call for an EGM.

by Irish Londoner Thu 29 May 2014, 12:37 pm

Without making this "political" Moffett appears to be taking the Nigel Farage role in this - I don't think many people involved in Welsh rugby really trust him or know exactly what he believes in or would do if he got control; IIRC he was the one that set up the Regional system in the first place wasn't he? However he has become the conduit for the dissatisfaction within the clubs and regions with the WRU and become the stick to beat them with.
Everyone seems to be good at knowing what they don't want but no-one seems to have a vision for the way forward which everyone can get behind. The whole rugby structure in Wales has to have collective think about what they want going into the long term, the Regions as they stand are unsustainable, the next level down clubs are not able to step into the breach and the game at the lower levels is withering slowly away.
Maybe Moffett is the only one who can get people together and bang heads or maybe he's just in it for himself and a few rich mates, but either way Wales needs to get it's act together sharpish.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 12:39 pm

I wouldn't know, but as I say again, the more telling thing is HOW they vote, not how many initially.

People rarely bite the hand that occasionally feeds

by HammerofThunor Thu 29 May 2014, 12:40 pm

He tried to set up a system with 4 regions, one up North, that were more akin to the NZ/Irish ones. Some clubs rebelled and threated legal action and so 5 were forced through with very strong ties to a few big clubs at the time. What 'people' are calling for now is what he tried to set up then.

Or something like that. It was before my time in Wales so the dust had settled by then (in the places I was anyway).

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 12:46 pm

At the moment the EGM is about the lower level grass roots clubs that are dying out as they are unsupported and under funded by the WRU. He's said himself that this isn't about the regions.

The BT deal will strengthen the regions financially and give them some independence. The more important bit is that BT will be working with the small amateur clubs which is something the WRU has told the regions not to do.

by SecretFly Thu 29 May 2014, 12:54 pm

munkian wrote:SecretFly makes it all about oireland 'shocker'

With me it is.................... shocker. Wink

Oh and I'm also passionately interested in the Australian Beach Volleyball team progressing in their sport. I'm awake most night worrying about them.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 1:07 pm

Is 'worrying' an Irish euphemism ?

by Sin é Thu 29 May 2014, 1:11 pm

munkian wrote:At the moment the EGM is about the lower level grass roots clubs that are dying out as they are unsupported and under funded by the WRU. He's said himself that this isn't about the regions.

The BT deal will strengthen the regions financially and give them some independence. The more important bit is that BT will be working with the small amateur clubs which is something the WRU has told the regions not to do.

So, the bottom line is the grass roots clubs want more money from the WRU and the Regions want more money from the WRU. Effectively, the grass roots will be competing with the Regions (or the other way around) for funding. Highly unlikely that the grassroots are going to burn that bridge, particularly if the alternative is Muffet running the show.

BT are still going to have to deal with the WRU. Insurance, training, competitions, referees, coaches etc. still have to have the impramateur of the WRU.
Its one thing getting rid of a board and structure, its another thing providing replacements acceptable to the electorate.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 1:25 pm

Well yes, no point removing one shower for another.

by SecretFly Thu 29 May 2014, 1:31 pm

Promise more money and you're elected is the usual qualification of the ruling class.

So...let me try to outbid Moffett here.

I promise the clubs everything they want but I also temper that by promising the Regions everything they want too. The WRU, whose side I've always been on from the beginning, but considering I understand the real issues affecting clubs and regions, I'm driven now to change my opinions and to promise the WRU everything they want too.

Beat that, Moffett!!! You're only a small town chancer at this vote getting game. A Simple Minds song comes to mind.

by Irish Londoner Thu 29 May 2014, 2:23 pm

There is a slightly more confrontational but nevertheless equally valid answer than two lots of suits having a bidding war with money that isn't theirs to dole out in the first place.
Get the Regions into a room and give them a simple choice - they pick the TOP14 model of "devil take the hindmost" and act as businesses with little or no WRU involvement or they pick the Irish/Scottish model and let the WRU have the final say and control in return for the funding they want.

by HammerofThunor Thu 29 May 2014, 2:49 pm

Irish Londoner wrote:There is a slightly more confrontational but nevertheless equally valid answer than two lots of suits having a bidding war with money that isn't theirs to dole out in the first place.
Get the Regions into a room and give them a simple choice - they pick the TOP14 model of "devil take the hindmost" and act as businesses with little or no WRU involvement or they pick the Irish/Scottish model and let the WRU have the final say and control in return for the funding they want.

I'm sure the regions would take either of those over the current 'WRU retain all the power, get the players whenever they want, control the employment of coaches, etc of the Irish/Scottish model and the additional funding of the French model'

by Irish Londoner Thu 29 May 2014, 3:13 pm

Hammer - good point but what is the answer for Welsh rugby in the long term, somewhere in all of this the WRU, Regions, Principality clubs and amateur clubs all have to come to some sort of compromise that is a "least bad" solution. Looking at it the old Irish travel instruction of "Well, if I was wanting to go there I wouldn't start from here" seems aposite but where do they go to.
How do the Regions get better players to stay, get more bums on seats for games and engage with the wider community outside their host towns/cities?
How do the Principality clubs deal with being a permanent second tier, do they accept it and work under that constraint or do they keep coming up with pie in the sky demands for fifth or even sixths regions? Should there be some sort of process to allow a side to progess to Region status?
What is the WRU for - the Welsh international side is one of the best in the world and could be even better, the Millenium is a great stadium and showpiece for the game, but they are in hock to paying for it for years to come. Should they restructure the debt and divert the money back into the game - to who - the Regions, Principality clubs or amateurs? Should they get more hands on or step away?
The local level - the heady days of every town and village having a rugby club and a rugby playing school have gone and are unlikely to come back - does the game at local level need reorganisation and possibly consolidation or should it be left to find it's own level. Should the higher level clubs get more involved or would they be told to beggar off by the clubs anyway?
If Moffett and/or Lewis or anyone else can sort all this there's a job in Northern Ireland, the Middle East or the Horn of Africa awaiting you.

by munkian Thu 29 May 2014, 3:26 pm

Well said

by Cardiff Dave Thu 29 May 2014, 4:31 pm

Cardiff Dave wrote:Another WRU/RRW meeting! Fabulous!

David Moffett ‏@moffettrugby May 27
Unless WRU cancel it once again, there is a meeting between Board and Regions on Thurs, love to be a fly on wall for that one

Wonder how the meeting went today?

by ScarletSpiderman Thu 29 May 2014, 5:15 pm

The Union as well as the regions/clubs/grass roots all appear to be aiming for the same thing, a solid system where grass roots feeds the clubs, the clubs feed the regions and the regions feed the national side. Yes there are a some who don't but truth be told there always will be. The only stumbling block seemed to be the union wanted to micro manage things, which has hampered the whole situation.

Now since Day Moffet has resurfaced, the whole mess has become a battle of egos between him (on social media) and Roger Lewis/Dai Pickering (on mainstream media). Unfortunately due to the fact that Roger and Co. are backed by the mainstream media, and Moffet is more 'underground' via social media (barely being recognised by the press) it does make it hard to really get a ballenced view of it all.

One thing is for sure though, both sides are devious snakes who don't give a monkeys about the game or the fans, and will poop on us all just so they can say they won their little spat.

by HammerofThunor Thu 29 May 2014, 6:07 pm

Irish Londoner, first off the WRU needs to decide on what it wants the Regions. Currently they are seen a pro teams than correspond to the regional academies. And that's it. That simply cannot work. They need to be either just pro teams, and truly are made super-clubs with potential to add more in the future. Or they're Regional representative teams, with involvement in the community rugby in their region. Currently they're a horrific hybrid of the (to simplify) the Irish and English systems. The cynic in me thinks the WRU want to keep it this way until the MS is paid off and then they whole thing will be ripped up and started afresh.

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