What Is Going On In Wales Pt.2

First topic message reminder :

Following on from the old thread -: https://www.606v2.com/t50378-what-the-hell-is-going-on-in-wales
 

Intotouch wrote:Hello knowledgeable Welsh friends. I've read some extraordinary things lately about the war between the regions and the union in Wales, but being an outsider, and not following this closely for years I'm not sure what's real and what's nonsense. Can someone please help clarify a few things for me?

1. I read that the WRU have a deal with the regions that they will each be given the same amount of money annually by the union for the next five years. This was interpreted by some as the union deciding to slowly let the regions go bust so they can set up new regions that they would own. Is this really the case?  It sounds completely crazy to me! Wouldn't this be a disaster in Welsh rugby and couldn't they try to buy the regions instead since they have more money now? Could this really be a plan?

2. The WRU is making a profit and with the millenium stadium paid off should have plenty of money to splash about in the future. (Or do they?) As they won't give more money to the regions this suggests that they want the regions to founder (see above).

3. Although the WRU pay millions to the regions annually they have little or no say in how they are run so are deeply frustrated with the regions. Also the regions can't stand the WRU even though they're keeping them afloat. Is this true and why?

4. The WRU offered central contracts to the players in the regions but the regions rejected this. Even though they would have a smaller wage bill if it went ahead. Why?
The regions have the lowest salary cap in Europe and keep losing their best players. But the regions won't let the WRU pay the internationals out of a central contract. As players have to be released anyway to play for Wales I don't see why the clubs wouldn't be delighted to do this. Are they afraid that they would lose them to too many training camps? I don't follow the logic of this. If the WRU paid the players then surely the regions would be able to keep more of their best players playing in Wales which surely would benefit them as they'd have stronger teams. Again I don't get why this is such a problem.

(Please don't include the possible move to the AP on this thread. It's being debated elsewhere.)

The original thread hit 1,000+ posts without descending into a bicker-fest, let's try to keep this thread going in the same manner.

Not sure if the how many clubs are part of the WRU has been answered   I think its around 300

Apparently there's 320 clubs in Wales and 32 are needed to call an EGM. Its in the link below

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26966025

Later articles suggest that 51 answered Moffet's call.

EGM is set for June 15th...fathers day.

I assume they're doing this on purpose to try and get as little attendance as possible. Also, a day after the Wales game? Aren't they (the WRU Jolly Holiday club) going to be in SA?

Blueschief wrote:Apparently there's 320 clubs in Wales and 32 are needed to call an EGM. Its in the link below

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/26966025

Later articles suggest that 51 answered Moffet's call.

I think 8 of those were not members so only 43 votes counted - still enough though

With regards to the forthcoming EGM;
(article from May 22)

"Today, David Moffett defied his doubters and marched right up to the gates of the Millennium Stadium with 51 signatures in his red box, more than enough to force the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) to convene an Extraordinary General Meeting (EGM) of all its member clubs.

Moffett, the former CEO of the WRU, will attend the EGM as a newly-inducted member of one of those clubs, to put himself forward as a candidate for election to the board of the WRU.

His campaign can no longer be dismissed as a side show. Nearly a quarter of the WRU’s member clubs have been brave enough to risk the Union’s wrath in order to support Moffett. According to the WRU’s constitution, as far as we can tell (it’s difficult to get the WRU to be open about even the simplest things like the number of clubs who are actually members of the Union), the EGM has to take place within 60 days.

Let’s remind ourselves of the issues which will be discussed at the meeting:

The 9 issues to be raised at the EGM are:

1. The CEO and the Executive must confirm the League structure for season 2014/15. The new league structure was decided with no direct input from clubs. In recent meetings with the Districts the WRU was informed that the new league structure was unacceptable. The Executive have ignored the clubs and have not provided a viable alternative. To date clubs have not been directly informed by the WRU of their intentions
2. The CEO and Executive continue paying down debt at a rate that is detrimental to the clubs.
3. The CEO and Executive have allowed the cost of tickets and management of the ticketing office to spiral out of control.
4. The CEO and Executive are operating without a proper business and strategic plan that has been communicated in full to all stakeholders.
5. The CEO and Executive are withholding urgently needed funding to all levels of the game despite reporting £11million in Reserves in FY2013.
6. Despite a promise from the Chairman, CEO and President have not provided the facts to contradict a ‘scurrilous’ and inaccurate financial expose by a former WRU Group CEO David Moffett, they have not done so.
7. Since 2007 the CEO and Executive have failed to recognise the urgent need to evolve the Professional, Semi Professional and Community games in line with best practice.
8. The Board, have themselves, not followed best practice as recommended by the UK Government and the Board of WRU is not fit for purpose.
9. Despite a document entitled A Manifesto for Change provided to all clubs by former WRU Group CEO, David Moffett, and numerous attempts by him to contact the Chairman, the WRU has ignored its existence whilst belatedly announcing identical strategies many weeks after its release.

In spite of this, the WRU even today tried to claim that the primary issue raised in those 51 letters was “the proposed league restructure.” The proposed league restructure is a big issue for all rugby clubs in Wales, for sure. But it’s by no means the only issue the clubs are complaining about.

The WRU have nearly two months to start spinning their side of the story in an attempt to get enough clubs on side to avoid a vote of no confidence. For a no confidence motion to succeed, it would require at least another 100 clubs to support the 51 who’ve called for the EGM.

There are certainly enough clubs who are sufficiently angry with the WRU’s attempts to wreck the lower leagues, but will they be brave enough to stand up in an open meeting and show their opposition?

We’ll know soon enough. What you can be sure of is this: the WRU aren’t going to go down without a fight. You can expect to see a lot of good news press releases emanating from the WRU’s spin doctor John Williams in the coming weeks, and maybe even an appearance or two from CEO Roger Lewis and Chairman David Pickering on BBC Wales, the WRU’s unofficial PR agency.

Today, even BBC Wales grudgingly admitted that Moffett’s campaign has succeeded mostly through the use of social media. The corollary to that admission being that he has succeeded in spite of the attempts of the mainstream media to suppress all coverage of his activities.

Personally I’m looking forward to the usual ill-informed nonsense from Andy Howell of the Western Mail, who made a complete fool of himself at Moffett’s press conference today. If the EGM vote of no confidence does succeed, we will not only have the relief of seeing the back of the incompetent, self-serving egos at the top of the WRU; we will also have the satisfaction of proving the likes of Andy Howell and his friends wrong once again. It’s been a long battle, but finally it’s starting to feel like it’s one which has been worth fighting."

http://gwladrugby.com/?m=20140522

Howell is a poisonous dwarf of a man, and that's an injustice to Tyrion Lannister

What club has taken him on ?
As an aside this must be one of the first occaisions where the stakeholders in an organisation are criticizing the board for paying off a debt too quickly!

Wasn't it Pontypool? I seem to remember that during the 'live debate' thing on BBC.

Well as long as it's a respectable club and not an embittered self defined disenfranchised club with an axe to grind that's bound to go well then   

This is a joke BTW   

Its like paying off a mortgage fast whilst your kids are starving

Irish Londoner wrote:Hammer - good point but what is the answer for Welsh rugby in the long term, somewhere in all of this the WRU, Regions, Principality clubs and amateur clubs all have to come to some sort of compromise that is a "least bad" solution. Looking at it the old Irish travel instruction of "Well, if I was wanting to go there I wouldn't start from here" seems aposite but where do they go to.
How do the Regions get better players to stay, get more bums on seats for games and engage with the wider community outside their host towns/cities?
How do the Principality clubs deal with being a permanent second tier, do they accept it and work under that constraint or do they keep coming up with pie in the sky demands for fifth or even sixths regions? Should there be some sort of process to allow a side to progess to Region status?
What is the WRU for - the Welsh international side is one of the best in the world and could be even better, the Millenium is a great stadium and showpiece for the game, but they are in hock to paying for it for years to come. Should they restructure the debt and divert the money back into the game - to who - the Regions, Principality clubs or amateurs? Should they get more hands on or step away?
The local level - the heady days of every town and village having a rugby club and a rugby playing school have gone and are unlikely to come back - does the game at local level need reorganisation and possibly consolidation or should it be left to find it's own level. Should the higher level clubs get more involved or would they be told to beggar off by the clubs anyway?
If Moffett and/or Lewis or anyone else can sort all this there's a job in Northern Ireland, the Middle East or the Horn of Africa awaiting you.

Some good questions there Irish L.
Andrew Hore, chief exec of the Ospreys, asked similar ones back in 2010. Makes you wonder doesn't it?

munkian wrote:Howell is a poisonous dwarf of a man, and that's an injustice to Tyrion Lannister

I spose you could say the bloke is consistent.
A 606 thread from 2011......
https://www.606v2.com/t7152-journalist-andy-howell-has-to-go

munkian wrote:Its like paying off a mortgage fast whilst your kids are starving

Indeed.

stourjim wrote:I always feel embarrassed when I see the crowds at English and Irish matches and then see  the mass of empty seats at our Regional matches. We get what we pay for and if we are not prepared to support our region we cannot complain when they cannot afford to keep their best players. I am a gwent exile and remember when gwent sides were respected members of the Western Mail Unofficial table of the 14 leading Welsh clubs. I even remember Abertillery Park being packed full (rumoured 30,000 gate) when Abertillery played Pontypool in the 1930's. We have a national team to be proud of but I fear for the future with the team members scattered over Europe.  Can it be that our rugby supporters prefer to watch the tele or is it poor marketing by the regions - perhaps organising subsidised buses/trains, returning an hour after the match end to give supporters a chance to chat about the match and provide a useful bar profit for the regions. It is right that the regions should receive financial support from the WRU as theyare the providers of Welsh players but we, the rugby enthusiasts, have a responsibility too - an extra 5,000 through the gates would make life easier.

Done that Jim and more besides.
What's bleeding obvious is that we simply haven't bought into regional rugby. We know this because of the ridiculously cheap ticket prices (plus freebies by the lorry load) and the arguments today are as passionate as they were 10 years ago, if not more so.
Re: attendances; according to the Beeb, there were 12,843 at The Arms Park last week for the Amlin final featuring Northampton against Bath. Additional seating too. I watched Cardiff (Neil Jenkins OH) take on Newport at CAP just after the rebel season and the attendance was 4000 more than last Friday. Get my drift?

Irish Londoner wrote:What club has taken him on ?

It doesn't really matter which "club has taken him on" though. Moffett or not, what matters is that hopefully this EGM will be a no holds barred rumble in the "jungle" (aka Port Talbot) which is what Welsh rugby needs and has needed for a long time. There is some very dirty laundry that needs an airing in my view. Will it all come out in the wash, I doubt it, but it will be a start at least.

Dave, 11m isn't a lot to have in reserve to run an organisation like the WRU. Generally, organisations like the WRU/IRFU should be able to survive for at least 6 months if they have no income (for example, national disaster, Foot & Mouth etc. that would cancel all rugby matches so the Unions would have no income. The IRFU have €51.8m.

When checking that figure in the IRFU's annual report, in the Treasurer's statement gives a figure of €22m (average 5.5m per Province) that the IRFU invest.

Bear in mind that the IRFU hold onto all the competition and media income from both the Pro12 & Heineken cup and the Provinces have to donate half their gate to the IRFU after knock-out stages of Heineken Cup.

Point 5 of that EGM will take about 3 minutes to go through.

It's £11m of profit reserves not Cash.

David Moffet should have got an accountant to explain the difference to him because I am staggered at his lack of knowledge of financial statements considering he was the CEO.

He has made himself look silly. I discussed it with him on twitter and he really does not have a clue about finance and accounts.

But many people are up in arms saying why can't the WRU release £6m like he has said. There is not £6m of cash. At the point of the last Financial Statements there was £700,000.

In order to released £6m he would have had to borrow it from the bank. Ie more interest,.

The current bank deal gives a very very low rate of interest compared to other commercial deals and a renogotiation which is what Moffet is advocating would see a worse rate and hence less money available to invest in rugby.

The rest of his manifesto is very woolly

What does point 8 mean? They have not followed best practice as recommended by the UK government?

Point 3 - ticket prices. We would all like to see ticket prices lower but they are still the cheapest international rugby tickets out of the 6 nations countries.

Point 4 - operating without a proper business plan? Just a blatant lie, doe she really think that a business like this does not have a business plan. I think he is getting confused with the regions as per the PWC report.

Most of this sounds pretty desperate stuff from Moffett and is just rabble rousing to the uneducated.

The regions are asking for an extra £4m a year, that will mean that those profit reserves will be wiped out in 3 years. The WRU will then have negative equity and will be bankrupt. Is that what we all want to see. Because rugby really is dead in Wales if that happens.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

stourjim wrote:I always feel embarrassed when I see the crowds at English and Irish matches and then see  the mass of empty seats at our Regional matches. We get what we pay for and if we are not prepared to support our region we cannot complain when they cannot afford to keep their best players. I am a gwent exile and remember when gwent sides were respected members of the Western Mail Unofficial table of the 14 leading Welsh clubs. I even remember Abertillery Park being packed full (rumoured 30,000 gate) when Abertillery played Pontypool in the 1930's. We have a national team to be proud of but I fear for the future with the team members scattered over Europe.  Can it be that our rugby supporters prefer to watch the tele or is it poor marketing by the regions - perhaps organising subsidised buses/trains, returning an hour after the match end to give supporters a chance to chat about the match and provide a useful bar profit for the regions. It is right that the regions should receive financial support from the WRU as theyare the providers of Welsh players but we, the rugby enthusiasts, have a responsibility too - an extra 5,000 through the gates would make life easier.

Done that Jim and more besides.
What's bleeding obvious is that we simply haven't bought into regional rugby. We know this because of the ridiculously cheap ticket prices (plus freebies by the lorry load) and the arguments today are as passionate as they were 10 years ago, if not more so.
Re: attendances; according to the Beeb, there were 12,843 at The Arms Park last week for the Amlin final featuring Northampton against Bath. Additional seating too. I watched Cardiff (Neil Jenkins OH) take on Newport at CAP just after the rebel season and the attendance was 4000 more than last Friday. Get my drift?

The crowds won't come in until a region gets a Leinster style period of dominance and the flair they played with. The casual 6 Nations only fan just doesn't rate the rugby on offer. This despite the national team success and the chance to watch the stars at home every 2 weeks at a comparitively low price. Swans success and Cardiff city in the prem and the continued dominace of football is not helping either. Majority of households now have sky/bt sports and its 24hr Football news and coverage. Maybe the pro12 game will get a boost when sky get their hands on it.

doctornickolas wrote:Point 5 of that EGM will take about 3 minutes to go through.

It's £11m of profit reserves not Cash.

David Moffet should have got an accountant to explain the difference to him because I am staggered at his lack of knowledge of financial statements considering he was the CEO.

He has made himself look silly. I discussed it with him on twitter and he really does not have a clue about finance and accounts.

But many people are up in arms saying why can't the WRU release £6m like he has said. There is not £6m of cash. At the point of the last Financial Statements there was £700,000.

In order to released £6m he would have had to borrow it from the bank. Ie more interest,.

The current bank deal gives a very very low rate of interest compared to other commercial deals and a renogotiation which is what Moffet is advocating would see a worse rate and hence less money available to invest in rugby.

The rest of his manifesto is very woolly

What does point 8 mean? They have not followed best practice as recommended by the UK government?

Point 3 - ticket prices. We would all like to see ticket prices lower but they are still the cheapest international rugby tickets out of the 6 nations countries.

Point 4 - operating without a proper business plan? Just a blatant lie, doe she really think that a business like this does not have a business plan. I think he is getting confused with the regions as per the PWC report.

Most of this sounds pretty desperate stuff from Moffett and is just rabble rousing to the uneducated.

The regions are asking for an extra £4m a year, that will mean that those profit reserves will be wiped out in 3 years. The WRU will then have negative equity and will be bankrupt. Is that what we all want to see. Because rugby really is dead in Wales if that happens.

That last point you make is complete nonsense, if you knew what the situation really was you wouldn't say stupid things like that.

Welsh Magician wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Point 5 of that EGM will take about 3 minutes to go through.

It's £11m of profit reserves not Cash.

David Moffet should have got an accountant to explain the difference to him because I am staggered at his lack of knowledge of financial statements considering he was the CEO.

He has made himself look silly. I discussed it with him on twitter and he really does not have a clue about finance and accounts.

But many people are up in arms saying why can't the WRU release £6m like he has said. There is not £6m of cash. At the point of the last Financial Statements there was £700,000.

In order to released £6m he would have had to borrow it from the bank. Ie more interest,.

The current bank deal gives a very very low rate of interest compared to other commercial deals and a renogotiation which is what Moffet is advocating would see a worse rate and hence less money available to invest in rugby.

The rest of his manifesto is very woolly

What does point 8 mean? They have not followed best practice as recommended by the UK government?

Point 3 - ticket prices. We would all like to see ticket prices lower but they are still the cheapest international rugby tickets out of the 6 nations countries.

Point 4 - operating without a proper business plan? Just a blatant lie, doe she really think that a business like this does not have a business plan. I think he is getting confused with the regions as per the PWC report.

Most of this sounds pretty desperate stuff from Moffett and is just rabble rousing to the uneducated.

The regions are asking for an extra £4m a year, that will mean that those profit reserves will be wiped out in 3 years. The WRU will then have negative equity and will be bankrupt. Is that what we all want to see. Because rugby really is dead in Wales if that happens.

That last point you make is complete nonsense, if you knew what the situation really was you wouldn't say stupid things like that.

What is stupid about it. What I am saying is that it would be £4m per year less profits or maybe losses that accumulates to £12m over 3 years. If a normal situation was break even then over 3 years with that level of extra funding the WRU would have £11m reserves at the start minus £12m losses over those 3 years. Ie reserves wiped out. The opposite side of the balance sheet from reserves is the assets -liabilities. We would therefore be in a position where liabilities excveed assets?

What is stupid about it? It's just not affordable.

To put it in perspective the IRFU have profit reserves of £50million and are cutting the amount provinces are allowed to spend on overseas players and looking for whatever savings they can make.

WRU reserves are low because of the rush to pay off debt on the stadium and as Roger Lewis's bonus is linked to the rate of paying off this debt, he will continue to do so.

WRU executives pay should be linked to Rugby performance as well as financial performance. Until this happens the professional game in Wales is doomed.

If the WRU are making a profit of £7M then they can certainly afford to increase the bugets for the regions. The cash reserve is a red herring, if the earn £7M profit and pay off the debt by £6.3M more than is required by the terms of the loan then they will only have £700k cash left. Or less after Roger the Dodger has taken his bonus!

doctornickolas wrote:

Welsh Magician wrote:

doctornickolas wrote:Point 5 of that EGM will take about 3 minutes to go through.

It's £11m of profit reserves not Cash.

David Moffet should have got an accountant to explain the difference to him because I am staggered at his lack of knowledge of financial statements considering he was the CEO.

He has made himself look silly. I discussed it with him on twitter and he really does not have a clue about finance and accounts.

But many people are up in arms saying why can't the WRU release £6m like he has said. There is not £6m of cash. At the point of the last Financial Statements there was £700,000.

In order to released £6m he would have had to borrow it from the bank. Ie more interest,.

The current bank deal gives a very very low rate of interest compared to other commercial deals and a renogotiation which is what Moffet is advocating would see a worse rate and hence less money available to invest in rugby.

The rest of his manifesto is very woolly

What does point 8 mean? They have not followed best practice as recommended by the UK government?

Point 3 - ticket prices. We would all like to see ticket prices lower but they are still the cheapest international rugby tickets out of the 6 nations countries.

Point 4 - operating without a proper business plan? Just a blatant lie, doe she really think that a business like this does not have a business plan. I think he is getting confused with the regions as per the PWC report.

Most of this sounds pretty desperate stuff from Moffett and is just rabble rousing to the uneducated.

The regions are asking for an extra £4m a year, that will mean that those profit reserves will be wiped out in 3 years. The WRU will then have negative equity and will be bankrupt. Is that what we all want to see. Because rugby really is dead in Wales if that happens.

That last point you make is complete nonsense, if you knew what the situation really was you wouldn't say stupid things like that.

What is stupid about it. What I am saying is that it would be £4m per year less profits or maybe losses that accumulates to £12m over 3 years. If a normal situation was break even then over 3 years with that level of extra funding the WRU would have £11m reserves at the start minus £12m losses over those 3 years. Ie reserves wiped out. The opposite side of the balance sheet from reserves is the assets -liabilities. We would therefore be in a position where liabilities excveed assets?

What is stupid about it? It's just not affordable.

I am no fan of the WRU. Neither do I think the regions have covered themselves in glory in recent times. This however is the clearest and most sensible thing that I have seen anyone say on here in a long time. Moffet is a charlatan. We seriously do not need this man back in welsh rugby. I for one am happy the WRU will be debt free sooner rather than later. The sustainability of the regional game is a wider issue and a complex one at that. I would me much happier seeing an agreement between the WRU and regions emerge shortly than yet another welsh rugby civil war. This saga has been an utter embarassment. The opportunity is there to find a way forwards. Moffet is offering fools gold - a distraction. If the regions think the WRU stinks why cant they propose an EGM instead of this rattle in a can?

Seagultaf wrote:WRU reserves are low because of the rush to pay off debt on the stadium and as Roger Lewis's bonus is linked to the rate of paying off this debt, he will continue to do so.

WRU executives pay should be linked to Rugby performance as well as financial performance. Until this happens the professional game in Wales is doomed.

If the WRU are making a profit of £7M then they can certainly afford to increase the bugets for the regions. The cash reserve is a red herring, if the earn £7M profit and pay off the debt by £6.3M more than is required by the terms of the loan then they will only have £700k cash left. Or less after Roger the Dodger has taken his bonus!

Your first line is completely incorrect.

[quote="Seagultaf"]WRU reserves are low because of the rush to pay off debt on the stadium and as Roger Lewis's bonus is linked to the rate of paying off this debt, he will continue to do so.

WRU executives pay should be linked to Rugby performance as well as financial performance. Until this happens the professional game in Wales is doomed.

If the WRU are making a profit of £7M then they can certainly afford to increase the bugets for the regions. The cash reserve is a red herring, if the earn £7M profit and pay off the debt by £6.3M more than is required by the terms of the loan then they will only have £700k cash left. Or less after Roger the Dodger has taken his bonus![/quote]

The reserves are low not because of Lewis but because of Glanmor

doctornickolas wrote:

Seagultaf wrote:WRU reserves are low because of the rush to pay off debt on the stadium and as Roger Lewis's bonus is linked to the rate of paying off this debt, he will continue to do so.

WRU executives pay should be linked to Rugby performance as well as financial performance. Until this happens the professional game in Wales is doomed.

If the WRU are making a profit of £7M then they can certainly afford to increase the bugets for the regions. The cash reserve is a red herring, if the earn £7M profit and pay off the debt by £6.3M more than is required by the terms of the loan then they will only have £700k cash left. Or less after Roger the Dodger has taken his bonus!

Your first line is completely incorrect.

2nd paragraph isn't great either 3 6N in 7 years (2 in the last three) and of those 2 were Grand slams.
Maybe 'Seagultaf' wants Roger Lewis to get a rise   

Allty wrote:WRU executives pay should be linked to Rugby performance as well as financial performance. Until this happens the professional game in Wales is doomed.

Interesting as given the national sides perfromance over the last few years Lewis and co. would be very rich men then !
If you were linking pay to the Regions performance surely it's the Regions executives who should be having a pay cut if the teams are not performing?
The WRU have handled some things very badly but the Regions speaking through Moffett going "it's all your fault" whilst also going "we want more money from you" at the same time is hardly consistent.

Yeah linking it to the National side then they would indeed be rich so you cant just say it like that you have to take the whole game (grass roots up) into account.

munkian wrote:Howell is a poisonous dwarf of a man, and that's an injustice to Tyrion Lannister

A colleague of Roger's cabin boy tweeted the following yesterday evening;

"Whisper it quietly, but the word is there may just be some progress in the negotiations between the WRU and the regions. Fingers crossed."

Cardiff Dave wrote:

munkian wrote:Howell is a poisonous dwarf of a man, and that's an injustice to Tyrion Lannister

A colleague of Roger's cabin boy tweeted the following yesterday evening;

"Whisper it quietly, but the word is there may just be some progress in the negotiations between the WRU and the regions. Fingers crossed."

It is certainly sounding like a cease-fire is near, but until it is official (and a fair deal) I will remain sceptical when it comes to the odd person here or there saying "oh we are almost over the worst of it".

Seems like we may be over the worst of it.



........what? why is everyone looking at me like that? what did I say?????

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:

munkian wrote:Howell is a poisonous dwarf of a man, and that's an injustice to Tyrion Lannister

A colleague of Roger's cabin boy tweeted the following yesterday evening;

"Whisper it quietly, but the word is there may just be some progress in the negotiations between the WRU and the regions. Fingers crossed."

It is certainly sounding like a cease-fire is near, but until it is official (and a fair deal) I will remain sceptical when it comes to the odd person here or there saying "oh we are almost over the worst of it".

Ditto.

SecretFly wrote:Seems like we may be over the worst of it.



........what?  why is everyone looking at me like that?  what did I say?????

Stop your blydi stirring and there's plenty more Poopie to follow in any case......
The EGM a week Sunday and WRU elections in August.

Cardiff Dave wrote:.... and there's plenty more Poopie to follow in any case......
The EGM a week Sunday and WRU elections in August.

The aftermath of us getting pummelled in SA / us winning a tour in SA.
Also what team get what CC player (seeing as it seems we are caving on that) could be a season long inter-region moan.

For the CC issue, if they do come in from next season then the players should remain where they are for now. If, for instance, north was brought back on a CC would he go to the scarlets? That's the real question.

Also, what euro competition a region plays in may dictate where CC players play. The Ospreys would have a better chance of getting someone, say North, if they're in the RCC and the other 3 aren't.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:.... and there's plenty more Poopie to follow in any case......
The EGM a week Sunday and WRU elections in August.

The aftermath of us getting pummelled in SA / us winning a tour in SA.
Also what team get what CC player (seeing as it seems we are caving on that) could be a season long inter-region moan.

All I know about CCs is that SW signed one and others didn't/haven't. I could be wrong, but i'm still not convinced the whole idea is a goer.

Maybe it's too late and the wrong approach to be thinking of present nailed-on Internationals on any CC list.  Yes, they've already made their names and demand the careers that go from that proven effort (ie, enough money AND the kinds of competitions they want to be part of [team with real RCC potential for example])

Why not instead concentrate CC attentions and worries on a select CC list of players just a step away from regular senior International involvement.  They still have the proving to do, they're still not strong enough to 'demand' they play in the side that has most potential in Europe, but they are the players that can be eased into the new system and settle down in it, ready to be kept within it as they mature and become more attractive to outside clubs.

Skip a generation with the CCs to get them up and running rather than trying to impress already seasoned Internationals who are cynical about the whole deal?

Cardiff Dave wrote:"Whisper it quietly, but the word is there may just be some progress in the negotiations between the WRU and the regions. Fingers crossed."

Oh change of plan talk on the rumour mill that last nights meeting has more or less stalled the whole process again.

Peace Talks Meeting Chairman: "Okay guys...thanks for coming, all of y.....................  What?  What did I say now??? - Where are you going????!!!"

Disgruntled Contributors: "We're getting out of this f**kin' joint!  There's nothing 'All' about any of us here, okay???!!!  OKAY!!!  
We represent divergent legitimate views and you're f**kin' disrespecting some of us by saying we're all the same!!!! - This meeting is over as far as we're concerned!"

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:"Whisper it quietly, but the word is there may just be some progress in the negotiations between the WRU and the regions. Fingers crossed."

Oh change of plan talk on the rumour mill that last nights meeting has more or less stalled the whole process again.

No surprise there really both parties as stubborn as each other.

[quote="Irish Londoner"][quote="Allty"]WRU executives pay should be linked to Rugby performance as well as financial performance. Until this happens the professional game in Wales is doomed.
[/quote]

Interesting as given the national sides perfromance over the last few years Lewis and co. would be very rich men then !
If you were linking pay to the Regions performance surely it's the Regions executives who should be having a pay cut if the teams are not performing?
The WRU have handled some things very badly but the Regions speaking through Moffett going "it's all your fault" whilst also going "we want more money from you" at the same time is hardly consistent.[/quote]

I didn't write that Irish it looks like a quote by someone else

PS Seagultaf wrote that...

Sorry, I snipped the quote from your quote of his quote  

bedfordwelsh wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:"Whisper it quietly, but the word is there may just be some progress in the negotiations between the WRU and the regions. Fingers crossed."

Oh change of plan talk on the rumour mill that last nights meeting has more or less stalled the whole process again.

No surprise there really both parties as stubborn as each other.

Alternatively, it could be that one side is still being "unreasonable".

Dai, more like on side is being unreasonable, and the other side is being unrealistic.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Cardiff Dave wrote:"Whisper it quietly, but the word is there may just be some progress in the negotiations between the WRU and the regions. Fingers crossed."

Oh change of plan talk on the rumour mill that last nights meeting has more or less stalled the whole process again.

The meeting went badly apparently.
What I gather from twitter this morning (could all be more complete bollux of course) is that there is disagreement regarding the terms and conditions of centrally contracting around 15-20 players.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Dai, more like on side is being unreasonable, and the other side is being unrealistic.

Fair one Dai but I do think they are both as bad as each other but also I think its got to the stage now where neither is willing to give in.

gcBlues wrote:EGM is set for June 15th...fathers day.

I assume they're doing this on purpose to try and get as little attendance as possible. Also, a day after the Wales game? Aren't they (the WRU Jolly Holiday club) going to be in SA?

That would appear to be the case.

"Unreasonable" keeps coming up as a sticking point.  But "unreasonable" does what it says on the tin - always - in that, without it, there is no battle, no war, no trenches and no reason for negotiations.

So "unreasonable" is a natural consequence and cause of the argument still going on between WRU and Regions.

I don't know if one is already involved but it (the argument) does seem to require a truly neutral facilitator (not Welsh, not English, not Irish, not Scotch...not Moffatt )  

Someone who probably doesn't know a blessed thing about rugby and who has no vested interest in what a future profile of rugby in wales might be.  But someone who can get the parties to actually sit down and have both sides approach the whole thing differently.  

Instead of them each coming with a "What are you going to do for us?" attitude, they should be forced (both sides) to come with real, honest proposals about what each is prepared to give way on to make progress.
Get some written down actual concession proposals from each first (to take care of the accusations of 'unreasonableness').  And then when those are on the table then get going on how to amalgamate those real concessions to the more contentious issues of "What you gonna do for us?"

But first - if they don't already have one - they really must get a neutral person to get between them and force both to acknowledge 'unreasonableness' is there on both sides.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

gcBlues wrote:EGM is set for June 15th...fathers day.

I assume they're doing this on purpose to try and get as little attendance as possible. Also, a day after the Wales game? Aren't they (the WRU Jolly Holiday club) going to be in SA?

That would appear to be the case.

The case is more than likely down to the Constitution/Article of Association of the WRU. Generally, you have to give a couple of weeks notice of an EGM (3+ weeks) and you have to hold it within a certain timeframe (as in you can't put it off forever). Also stuff like you have to hold it in the same location (as in town/city) as to where you hold the AGM. This is to stop boards doing stuff like holding an EGM in the north of Scotland as a deterrant for attendance.