Dealing with depression - boxing's ongoing fight

Article found on the BBC website.

Dealing with depression - boxing's ongoing fight
By Joel Hammer
BBC Sport World Service There is no hiding behind team-mates in boxing. There is no reward for those only willing to put in half a shift. And often when the lights go out and that adrenaline rush subsides, a boxer's feeling of solitude is only magnified.

Herol Graham is arguably the best British boxer never to have won a world title. A British and European champion at light-middleweight and middleweight, Graham won 48 of his 54 pro bouts but lost three world title challenges.

In 1989 Graham was narrowly outpointed by Jamaican great Mike McCallum. The following year Graham fought Julian Jackson, one of the biggest punchers in history, for the WBC middleweight crown. Having dominated the first four rounds and been on the verge of stopping the Virgin Islander, Graham left his chin exposed and was rendered unconscious before he hit the canvas.

Graham retired in 1992, only to return four years later and earn a third world title shot in 1998, this time against the American Charles Brewer.

The challenger dropped Brewer twice before the champion rallied and stopped Graham in the 10th round. Graham's rare and mercurial talent was never fully fulfilled. But it was when he hung up the gloves for good that his problems really began.

"I was driving and I stopped and bought some brandy," says the 54-year-old Graham, who now lives with his partner Karen in London.

"I was crying, thinking about my mother and father, brothers and sisters. I wanted to end my life. I cut my left wrist but woke up in the morning and thought: 'I'm still here'. So I toddled off to the hospital and they looked at me and said: 'How you going Bomber?!' They fixed me up and sent me away."

It took Graham a long time to get the support he needed. "I met up with Herol again about five years ago," says Graham's partner Karen, his childhood sweetheart.

"I drove up to Sheffield and within about five minutes I could see things were pretty bad. Emotionally, financially and spiritually, he was quite broken. It became apparent that the only way to get him the help he needed was to get him sectioned. I called the police and they picked him up."

"I thought I was a nutter at first," says Graham. "But it's for your own security, to prevent you harming yourself. And it did help, I got myself back together."

Sadly, Graham's story is not uncommon. Michael Bentt won the WBO heavyweight crown from Tommy Morrison in 1993 but lost his title to Britain's Herbie Hide only five months later, a defeat that took a devastating toll.

"I remember putting a gun to my head because I was lonely," says Bentt, who was one of the most decorated amateurs in American history.

"I didn't want to be around people, because people wanted to hear about my last fight and how I got knocked out. I was suicidal, I was depressed and I was drinking. I'd get in my car and drive on the highway at night, close my eyes and count to 30 and see what happened. Luckily I never crashed."

How could two seemingly powerful men be reduced to such emotional rubble? In truth, both Graham and Bentt entered the ring already bearing severe mental scarring, scarring invisible to just about everyone else.

"From the age of eight I was subjected to sexual abuse," says Graham. "I kept it (secret) for over 15 years. Boxing was my defence. I'm not a violent person but if anyone touched me in boxing, I'd smash them."


Chris Eubank beating Michael Watson in 1991.
"I blame my upbringing," says Bentt, who was born in London but raised in New York. "Even before I started boxing I had suicidal thoughts. When you see your father do things to your mum, it's confusing. You start to question your self-worth. I have always been depressed. It's not because of boxing. It's an element, what with the neurological damage, but only an element.

"We have to go even further beyond the act of boxing and figure out why this person is depressed to begin with and why this person is willing to get hit in the head in the first place."

Peter Hamlyn is a consultant neurosurgeon at the Institute of Sports Exercise and Health at University College London and the man who saved the life of Michael Watson following his defeat by Chris Eubank in 1991.

"You can see standard dementia process produced by repeated trauma to the head and as part of the dementia spectrum there are mood swings and depression," says Mr Hamlyn.

"It's always difficult in an individual case to say depression or dementia is due to repeated blows sustained, be they boxers, jockeys, rugby players or American footballers, or whether it is an ordinary case of Parkinson's or depression.

Hamlyn is hopeful that more research into the issue will garner important results. "One exciting line of study is the genetics of brain injury, and how different individuals respond to the same trauma," says Mr Hamlyn.

"There are a lot of boxers who had long careers and took repeated blows and came out unscathed, while others developed punch-drunk syndrome.

"Different brains behave in different ways and the genetics of that we are beginning to unpick. That's going to deliver us a situation where we'll be able tell certain individuals it's unwise to pursue this type of sport, pick another one"

In the meantime could more be done to protect those who might be vulnerable? Dr Margaret Goodman is a neurologist and former ringside physician. She feels that much more should be done to protect fighters from potential damage.

"Depression is quite prevalent among boxers," says Dr Goodman. "It is almost never diagnosed until it's too late and it manifests itself in so many negative ways.

"A strong number of patients with concussion have depression symptoms, but in boxing concussion is very badly diagnosed - as is depression - so I think the two go hand in hand in the sport."


After losing his title to Herbie Hide, Michael Bentt tried to commit suicide.
So what of the authorities that govern the sport? Boxing governance is fragmented, with each country having its own body which administers the sport. Robert Smith is the general secretary of the British Boxing Board of Control.

"Everyone involved in the sport knows the dangers of the sport," says Smith. "The Board of Control has medical provisions to make it as safe as possible. Every single boxer in the UK is scanned by an MRI every year, we monitor those scans and if there is any deterioration they are stopped from boxing.

"We don't do anything on the mental health side of it. It's a difficult field, I'm not qualified to do that. We have drug testing and if anybody is found taking anti-depressants we'd have to look into it seriously.

"They [anti-depressants] are on the banned list, a fit young person shouldn't need anything like that."

Bentt believes boxing is essentially a selfish sport and that "the onus in on the fighter to be prepared" adding: "It's the inherent nature of boxing to only be concerned with a person who can do something for you in that moment."

Dr Caroline Silby is a psychologist who has worked extensively with boxers and believes governing bodies need to do more to understand and develop the idea that "a boxer's mental health is as important as their physical health".

Dr Silby says by the time the more obvious signs of depression have been identified it's often too late. "Prevention needs to include awareness and education," she explained. "There should be informal assessments that athletes and trainers can use on a daily basis, related mood and sleep and eating patterns.

"On the treatment side national bodies need to have set tracks [standard procedures] on treatment, on diagnosis, because when athletes come forward you don't have a lot of time to look around and to get help."

Dr. Silby is also critical of the lack of support in place for those who face the difficult challenge of leaving sport behind.

"We absolutely need to do a better job on 'post sport transitional support'," she continued. "Once athletes leave the sport our job doesn't end, we need to continue to provide support to move through that very difficult transition."

There are also other factors to consider in addition to a boxer's mental health background and their potential disposition to brain injury and their consequences. Boxing, and sport in general can create powerful psychological elements that shape an athlete's thinking.


Mike Tyson was disqualified at the end of the third round of his fight with WBA heavyweight champion Evander Holyfield in June 1997.
"Boxers compete in a sport where the definition of success includes a win at all cost attitude," says Dr Silby. "All of your value as a person is tied to your athletic achievements and that leaves these athletes vulnerable to depression.

"We should be trying to reposition that definition of success to develop healthy individuals whose athletic outcome matches their capabilities. The attention to the person first and athlete second is a critical first step in mitigating and preventing this illness.

"This win at all cost thinking extends beyond the athlete; it is imbued in them form everyone they come in contact with and it has a damming effect

"There's a network that surrounds a fighter that doesn't really accept a loss, telling them they didn't really lose, that the judges were bad, the referee was bad, all to shield them from the reality of what's going on in their career."

It seems so many desperate aspects can combine to cause some fighters to suffer grievously at the hands of the black dog of depression. Will anything ever change?

Could a boxers' union that looks out for the interests of all fighters help? It's unlikely according to Bentt.

"There's never going to be one because that infringes on potential earning," said the American.

"Insure boxing? That gets very expensive. It's not in the promoter's interest. So what if a boxer lapses into a four day coma, because the public will always lust for blood and they know that.

"This problem will never get solved unless people decide not to box."

Source: BBC

https://www.606v2.com/t50832-interesting-read-on-the-bbc

Already done something similar Spencer...with about as much interest as your article....philistines!

Sorry Dave just came straight on and posted it. Should have taken a look at the thread list first.

Sad that boxers feel it will never get any better. You would hope in this day and age a difference could be made if only for a few.

Those stories are harrowing , luckily I've never suffered from depression which is a horrible illness. I have sympathy for the boxers suffering with this , but do they deserve preferential treatment ? How about the guys who live on the bread line work 50 hours a week for peanuts.

It's hard to feel sorry for guys like Hatton whose squandered millions , snorted his head off , disloyal to his wife and for him to say it's down to depression.

Cheers Rodders

Not sure they're wanting preferential treatment Rodders just trying to raise awareness.

I believe there's already a system in place to help fighters who are retiring due to injury/age and it provides practical help and support for those seeking employment once they hang up the gloves. Some of these guys took up boxing as they lacked the academic qualifications to gain meaningful employment in the first place.

No different to ex-soldiers joining Civvie Street. Some of them will need that extra support and some will be fine but as for depression surely anything that helps highlight the issue in anyone let alone sportsmen and women has to be a positive thing doesn't it?

I know Michael Bentt went on to be a bit part actor/extra and has appeared in Sons of Anarchy.

Having recently suffered from depression myself the biggest step is realising and then admitting that there is something wrong. Friends and family will always look out for your best interests but if they don't know what's going on, they can't help.

Boxers are proud men and likely to be stubborn enough to believe there's nothing wrong. That or it's "not a manly thing" to seek help.

With my situation (which I won't go into) I needed to to speak to someone to establish the triggers which cause it. I have done that and the difference is massive.

Good post Dave which is fair enough and like you said any support is beneficial.

Cheers Rodders

Sit in a Dr's waiting room looking at the posters for various illnesses, you'll go down the checklist saying "Got that one, had that, feel a bit like that now...oh Christ now I've got swollen ovaries." then laugh at yourself for being a ninny

Go through the depression check list and you'll do the same thing but then rather than follow it up, you put it down to something ANYTHING other than depression because the stigma attatched to depression is more terrifying than the illness itself. "My GOD I can't let people know I'm depressed as that is seen as a mental illness and we all know what people think of the mentally ill. That's not me, I'm NORMAL aren't I?"

It's hard enough trying to help those genuinely in need of help without the added struggle of battling the hearts and minds of the population at large and getting them to see that for some people, depression is a very real and serious thing.

Good for you Mr Bounce and glad to see you're "bouncing" back (I'm terribly sorry..feel free to swear at me for the terrible pun)

No problem Dave - ironically the nickname "Mr Bounce" originally came from my effervescent personality (something which has been a bit flat recently!). Thank you for your kind words.

It's a bar steward of a thing but it's a fight that I can win with the help of friends and family.

Health and happiness to all    

All the best Mr Bounce , glad things are on the up, hats off mate.

Cheers Rodders

I may as well explain my absence from the board as its relevant. The doctor who said about the concussion being clumsily diagnosed is damn right. Happened to me, I was knocked on my ass while messing around in the gym with one of the 15st guys as we usually do, but I'd taken a few hard punches to prove in a pathetic manly manner that they couldn't hurt me (they weren't full on punches where I just stood there). I do this a couple of times a month  When I got up I felt really dizzy but not as if i'd just been on a merry-go-round. Almost like I could only focus if I put an object into my view. My mates said on the way to the hospital my speech was slurred but I can't remember that. Doctors looked at me, claimed it was a concussion and that the shadow on the x-ray was just where I'd bumped my head on the way down.

Fast forward 4 weeks of nose bleeds, hardly being able to eat, crippling migraines and an inability to focus on anything that required attention longer than 10 seconds and I took myself to hospital. Apparently I had a bleed on the brain that was close to killing me. Doctor said I had about 2/3 days before it would become a haematoma and I'd be rendered useless.

Anyway, I went in for surgery and I'm all fixed now (touch wood) - although I shan't be boxing again. The doctor who initially diagnosed me with concussion out of laziness needs shooting.

I've been fairly scathing in the past about those who suffer from depression/stress/anxiety etc, and although my views have somewhat mellowed I still think we as a society are too quick to label.

Depression, if my understanding is correct, comes in two basic forms. One causes a chemical imbalance in the brain which leads to feeling depressed. This one is the serious one, for want of a better phrase.

The second type is one that cannot be explained properly? Now whilst I don't doubt that sometimes people get dealt sh!tty hands, to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out. In what way is the person depressed? I don't doubt they are sad, but it's not up to doctors and councillors to tell you why you don't feel all that great. Life is what you make of it, don't blame circumstance.

Maybe one day I will suffer from depression and be proven wrong, who knows, but until something tangible and measurable is able to diagnose it, then I view it the same way as religion. A load of nonsense.

Apologies if I have offended, that is not my intention. If anything I've written is incorrect (it probably is) then feel free to enlighten me. Despite my scepticism, the human brain is something which fascinates me so happy to be proven wrong here.

Lumbering_Jack wrote: I don't doubt they are sad, but it's not up to doctors and councillors to tell you why you don't feel all that great.

I would not want people who work for the Council telling me either. They seem woefully under qualified for the role.

Rowley wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote: I don't doubt they are sad, but it's not up to doctors and councillors to tell you why you don't feel all that great.

I would not want people who work for the Council telling me either. They seem woefully under qualified for the role.

Bloody auto correct...   

Lumbering wrote:to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out

Their inability to do so is pretty much the definition of depression
 

Lumbering wrote:the human brain is something which fascinates me

 
How tragic then that you fail to take any interest in the obvious malfunctions within your own

DAVE667 wrote:

Lumbering wrote:to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out

Their inability to do so is pretty much the definition of depression
 

Lumbering wrote:the human brain is something which fascinates me

 
How tragic then that you fail to take any interest in the obvious malfunctions within your own

Good response Dave...

Think you are wanted on the Haye thread. Strongy needs some stalking and Haye needs some blind, unconditional, man-love.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

Lumbering wrote:to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out

Their inability to do so is pretty much the definition of depression
 

Lumbering wrote:the human brain is something which fascinates me

 
How tragic then that you fail to take any interest in the obvious malfunctions within your own

Good response Dave...

Think you are wanted on the Haye thread. Strongy needs some stalking and Haye needs some blind, unconditional, man-love.

If only you did every once in a while Lumbering...didn't realise that name referred to your brain activity.

PS
My love for Haye is not unconditional actually...it's just that he's refusing to wear the ass-less chaps I sent him. Wonder if it's because they're pink.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Now whilst I don't doubt that sometimes people get dealt sh!tty hands, to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out. In what way is the person depressed? I don't doubt they are sad, but it's not up to doctors and councillors to tell you why you don't feel all that great. Life is what you make of it, don't blame circumstance.

Maybe one day I will suffer from depression and be proven wrong, who knows, but until something tangible and measurable is able to diagnose it, then I view it the same way as religion. A load of nonsense..

This is just a view from someone who has no experience of the situation. It can be hard to empathise, I understand. But, to label depression 'nonsense', is, well, nonsense. There are a number of robust medical studies proving that the various forms that depression comes in are vastly different from 'feeling a bit sad' or 'having a bad day', etc. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean that it should be dismissed. There is a certain degree of having to 'pull your socks up' involved in recovery from depression, but this typically happens in a supported way rather than a bottled up internal battle. The situation is absolutely not helped by dismissive public attitudes towards mental health. Being stigmatised and belittled by society for what is clearly an illness (albeit a poorly understood, easily misdiagnosed illness with uncertain treatment options) is not helpful. I understand that you have no real understanding of what you're talking about. But, to be honest, silence on the subject would be more beneficial than giving the type of opinion you give here.

Many reasons why a boxer would become depressed. Apart from repeated trauma to the head, causing physiological damage, there are many psychological aspects to consider.
These can include loss of goal, or aim in life, such as a title, be it area or world. Loss of structure in the day, and less reason to go to bed early as no more need to train in the mornings.
Reduced sleep has many negative consequences for a person, their mood,personality and cognitive functioning.
Also there are social aspects that can lead to depression. No longer being in the gym means that the camaraderie is lost and social networks become diminished, leaving little support when needed most.

DAVE667 wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

Lumbering wrote:to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out

Their inability to do so is pretty much the definition of depression
 

Lumbering wrote:the human brain is something which fascinates me

 
How tragic then that you fail to take any interest in the obvious malfunctions within your own

Good response Dave...

Think you are wanted on the Haye thread. Strongy needs some stalking and Haye needs some blind, unconditional, man-love.

If only you did every once in a while Lumbering...didn't realise that name referred to your brain activity.

PS
My love for Haye is not unconditional actually...it's just that he's refusing to wear the ass-less chaps I sent him. Wonder if it's because they're pink.

Surprised you're a Haye fan actually. Doesn't exactly agree with some of your lifestyle choices.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

DAVE667 wrote:

Lumbering wrote:to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out

Their inability to do so is pretty much the definition of depression
 

Lumbering wrote:the human brain is something which fascinates me

 
How tragic then that you fail to take any interest in the obvious malfunctions within your own

Good response Dave...

Think you are wanted on the Haye thread. Strongy needs some stalking and Haye needs some blind, unconditional, man-love.

If only you did every once in a while Lumbering...didn't realise that name referred to your brain activity.

PS
My love for Haye is not unconditional actually...it's just that he's refusing to wear the ass-less chaps I sent him. Wonder if it's because they're pink.

Surprised you're a Haye fan actually. Doesn't exactly agree with some of your lifestyle choices.

I sure some will say that his refusal to take the game seriously and ability to pi$$ of people he's never met would make me the ideal Haye fan.

Boxtthis wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Now whilst I don't doubt that sometimes people get dealt sh!tty hands, to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out. In what way is the person depressed? I don't doubt they are sad, but it's not up to doctors and councillors to tell you why you don't feel all that great. Life is what you make of it, don't blame circumstance.

Maybe one day I will suffer from depression and be proven wrong, who knows, but until something tangible and measurable is able to diagnose it, then I view it the same way as religion. A load of nonsense..

This is just a view from someone who has no experience of the situation. It can be hard to empathise, I understand. But, to label depression 'nonsense', is, well, nonsense. There are a number of robust medical studies proving that the various forms that depression comes in are vastly different from 'feeling a bit sad' or 'having a bad day', etc. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean that it should be dismissed. There is a certain degree of having to 'pull your socks up' involved in recovery from depression, but this typically happens in a supported way rather than a bottled up internal battle. The situation is absolutely not helped by dismissive public attitudes towards mental health. Being stigmatised and belittled by society for what is clearly an illness (albeit a poorly understood, easily misdiagnosed illness with uncertain treatment options) is not helpful. I understand that you have no real understanding of what you're talking about. But, to be honest, silence on the subject would be more beneficial than giving the type of opinion you give here.

I do have experience in so much as close family members have suffered. It still doesn't really change my view, although I have mellowed over time. My experience in these situation has done nothing to change my view. Maybe ive not had the fortune (mis-fortune?) of speaking to someone who isn't able to pull themselves round so easily.

I read Bomber Graham’s autobiography some time ago and it is absolutely tragic to realise quite how low he got at his worst, particularly as Graham was such an effervescent character when active. Basically realised his career was over, he had not achieved his goal of winning a world title and through a mixture of bad decisions, naivety and cold exploitation he had nothing financial or tangible to really show for his efforts. When you couple that with no real qualifications or transferable skills to take into a future career and is not hard to see how difficult it is to see a way forward.

Is hard to know a way forward as depression is a difficult thing to deal with. However do think the powers that be in the sport such as the board and promoters owe it to boxers to try at least to offer them financial advice through their career on how to invest or protect their earnings. I realise that depression can still strike, and one only has to look at Hatton or DLH to see how hard the transition to retirement can be for even the very wealthy. However I still cannot help but feel for guys like Graham things would have been easier if he at least knew his house was paid for or he had a few quid sat in an account or a pension somewhere.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Now whilst I don't doubt that sometimes people get dealt sh!tty hands, to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out. In what way is the person depressed? I don't doubt they are sad, but it's not up to doctors and councillors to tell you why you don't feel all that great. Life is what you make of it, don't blame circumstance.

Maybe one day I will suffer from depression and be proven wrong, who knows, but until something tangible and measurable is able to diagnose it, then I view it the same way as religion. A load of nonsense..

This is just a view from someone who has no experience of the situation. It can be hard to empathise, I understand. But, to label depression 'nonsense', is, well, nonsense. There are a number of robust medical studies proving that the various forms that depression comes in are vastly different from 'feeling a bit sad' or 'having a bad day', etc. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean that it should be dismissed. There is a certain degree of having to 'pull your socks up' involved in recovery from depression, but this typically happens in a supported way rather than a bottled up internal battle. The situation is absolutely not helped by dismissive public attitudes towards mental health. Being stigmatised and belittled by society for what is clearly an illness (albeit a poorly understood, easily misdiagnosed illness with uncertain treatment options) is not helpful. I understand that you have no real understanding of what you're talking about. But, to be honest, silence on the subject would be more beneficial than giving the type of opinion you give here.

I do have experience in so much as close family members have suffered. It still doesn't really change my view, although I have mellowed over time. My experience in these situation has done nothing to change my view. Maybe ive not had the fortune (mis-fortune?) of speaking to someone who isn't able to pull themselves round so easily.

I take the rest of the family just carried on as normal without offering any form of practical or emotional support whilst the sufferer pulled their socks up then. If so then their ability to recove marks them out as a remarkable individual especially when you consider the additional battle (namely indifference) that they faced.

Then again, maybe you altered your behaviour even slightly around this person to make allowances and accomodations for their condition which however small you may see them, do come under the heading of "family help and support"

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

Boxtthis wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Now whilst I don't doubt that sometimes people get dealt sh!tty hands, to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out. In what way is the person depressed? I don't doubt they are sad, but it's not up to doctors and councillors to tell you why you don't feel all that great. Life is what you make of it, don't blame circumstance.

Maybe one day I will suffer from depression and be proven wrong, who knows, but until something tangible and measurable is able to diagnose it, then I view it the same way as religion. A load of nonsense..

This is just a view from someone who has no experience of the situation. It can be hard to empathise, I understand. But, to label depression 'nonsense', is, well, nonsense. There are a number of robust medical studies proving that the various forms that depression comes in are vastly different from 'feeling a bit sad' or 'having a bad day', etc. Just because it hasn't happened to you doesn't mean that it should be dismissed. There is a certain degree of having to 'pull your socks up' involved in recovery from depression, but this typically happens in a supported way rather than a bottled up internal battle. The situation is absolutely not helped by dismissive public attitudes towards mental health. Being stigmatised and belittled by society for what is clearly an illness (albeit a poorly understood, easily misdiagnosed illness with uncertain treatment options) is not helpful. I understand that you have no real understanding of what you're talking about. But, to be honest, silence on the subject would be more beneficial than giving the type of opinion you give here.

I do have experience in so much as close family members have suffered. It still doesn't really change my view, although I have mellowed over time. My experience in these situation has done nothing to change my view. Maybe ive not had the fortune (mis-fortune?) of speaking to someone who isn't able to pull themselves round so easily.

As an illness depression definitely lends itself to ambiguity, no doubts about that. Psychologists don't fully understand approaches to treatment. The pharmacology behind medication is poorly understood as well i.e. we don't truly understand how (or if) various anti-depressants change the so-called 'chemical imbalance' aspect. Add this to the fact that there are no obvious physical symptoms, and throw in the fact that, yes, some people just generally are moany/lazy/weak and that 'normal' non suffering people can also feel 'down' on occasion - then, ok, you can see the issue with people doubting its status as an illness in some cases.

That said, there is also a wealth of really robust medical evidence surrounding depression that clearly mark it as a very real illness. It seems very, very strange to me that you'd just dismiss the very notion of depression despite all the solid evidence to the contrary. It's a flippant attitude to have.

Think Lumbering is cementing his position as a WUM here.

Its impossible to discount depression as an illness. You're mixing it up with "feeling under the weather" or "sad" - depression is much more than that. Depression is falling into a hole where there are no people to keep you company and no ways out, just a mirror and a track on repeat telling you how much of a failure you are. People in that cycle or rut need help. They need to understand what it is thats triggered their feelings, how they deal with the over-arching sense of fear and hatred of themselves and where to move forward. It is an illness. I've seen people go through it. You can't tell someone who feels that way to "pull your socks up"

Idiot.

Bet Kell will sleep easy now you've retired.

You're so funny. Please keep playing the same card over and over because I must admit, it isn't getting old at all. You must sit at home among people cheering your fingers every movement across your keyboard in anticipation of its inevitable comedic genius. I mean seriously, it must be really hard living day to day with that level of humour. If I were you I'd quit while I was ahead, because next you'll just end up having people die laughing when they look at you because everyone knows just how funny and satirical you are.

Kell Brook? Why? Do you know him?

Calm down Jabby. No need to get so emotional.

Just a bit of gentle ribbing. If you can't take it then don't dish it out. Anyway, I don't know you so the shame of being an adult and lying to a bunch of strangers online probably won't impact your day to day life.

Play nice, lads. A good job has been done of debating a serious issue pretty intelligently and amicably so far - I mean, come on, even Lumbering has shown something verging dangerously close to being compassion and understanding!

Let's try to keep it that way, eh?

They [anti-depressants] are on the banned list, a fit young person shouldn't need anything like that."

A horrendous statement from Robert Smith, not that I ever expect anything good from him. Ignoring the rights and wrongs of anti-depressants, I interpret that as him saying a young person has no reason to be depressed. What an absolutely clueless idiot.

And re. Bentt's comment

"Insure boxing? That gets very expensive. It's not in the promoter's interest. So what if a boxer lapses into a four day coma, because the public will always lust for blood and they know that.

The UFC has a private healthcare in place for all their fighters so it can be done.

JabMachineMK2 wrote:You're so funny. Please keep playing the same card over and over because I must admit, it isn't getting old at all. You must sit at home among people cheering your fingers every movement across your keyboard in anticipation of its inevitable comedic genius. I mean seriously, it must be really hard living day to day with that level of humour. If I were you I'd quit while I was ahead, because next you'll just end up having people die laughing when they look at you because everyone knows just how funny and satirical you are.

Make your mind up lad...carry on...quit...what's it to be?

I dunno about depressed but you might possibly be bi-polar

I f*cking hate being bi-polar its awesome

Will comment further shortly as im just off out but would just like to say how far even the board has come along on these matters in a short space of time.

LJ I appreciate your comments as a couple of yours ago your view was much more extreme so to see you softening your view and pointing out why you dont completely relate is progression. People have to realise that not everyone has dealt with someone with depression and like anything for all tue genuine suffers you get an awful lot of people that over egg being down. Same as you get lots of proper migraine sufferer's but many people that have a headache and claim to have a migraine.

Keep up the good debate guys. Back shortly

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've been fairly scathing in the past about those who suffer from depression/stress/anxiety etc, and although my views have somewhat mellowed I still think we as a society are too quick to label.

Depression, if my understanding is correct, comes in two basic forms. One causes a chemical imbalance in the brain which leads to feeling depressed. This one is the serious one, for want of a better phrase.

The second type is one that cannot be explained properly? Now whilst I don't doubt that sometimes people get dealt sh!tty hands, to me it is up to that person to get up and sort themselves out. In what way is the person depressed? I don't doubt they are sad, but it's not up to doctors and councillors to tell you why you don't feel all that great. Life is what you make of it, don't blame circumstance.

Maybe one day I will suffer from depression and be proven wrong, who knows, but until something tangible and measurable is able to diagnose it, then I view it the same way as religion. A load of nonsense.

Apologies if I have offended, that is not my intention. If anything I've written is incorrect (it probably is) then feel free to enlighten me. Despite my scepticism, the human brain is something which fascinates me so happy to be proven wrong here.

The problem with your summary is that it's a layman's understanding of an issue that even experts don't understand fully. As far as I'm aware, mental health professionals don't differentiate between 'chemical' and non-chemical depression, in part because they don't understand the causes well enough.

Unfortunately, your attitude of "they've been dealt a poor hand and should deal with it" is all too common. The point with depression is that you can't deal with it - you don't know how, because you can't always identify what the issue is. This is where talking therapies come in.

Going back to the original topic, I thought the BBC article was fascinating. The one thing that I felt it didn't look at however, is whether, if any correlation exists between mental health issues and boxing, it is because boxers are more prone to mental health issues, or because people who are already more prone to mental health issues are more likely box.

Not sure if anyone is interested but I wrote a couple of threads previously. Mr Bounce they might help might not. I have suffered with depression for years but only identified it as such in the last decade and shared my thoughts with the board a couple of years ago. More to just put something down for myself than anything. It might help if you write something on here. I didn't really want at the time to share so much with people in my life so thought the anonymous nature of the site was ideal. I thought some people might have harsh responses but what the hell I don't know them. But rather than that everyone that commented was very supportive and I even got a few PM's that helped a lot.

https://www.606v2.com/t33494-dealing-with-depression

https://www.606v2.com/t37809-gary-speed-one-year-on

With regards people not understanding depression it's a difficult one. I wouldn't swap my family with anyones, however we are not a family that talks about serious stuff too much. As a result when I told my brother he didn't and still doesn't understand. Just puts me down as being a bit weird! I'd like him to understand but it doesn't necessarily matter as he is still a brilliant brother and looks out for me in every other walk of life.

Anyway Mr Bounce if you ever need a chat just PM me.

Cheers.

I read the article on the BBC and it was truly sad to hear. Herol was the first boxer I really followed avidly, in the days Grandstand used to have his fights on Saturday afternoons.

To this day, I am still shocked how little "after care" and insurance boxers appear to get. Whilst it is reasonable to ask "what makes them so special?", it has to be pointed out that, combat sports are unique in intensity and solitude. Only you and less than 40 fights to "make" your career, with one slip up and you can undo all the hard work and dedication has got you. With that backdrop, i think it is odd that not more is done by promoters and governing bodies, in this day and age.

The debate about depression is a hard one and like any "debate" it is usually because the causes are hard to quantify. It does appear some is due to chemical imbalances but then we all can point at people who claim to be depressed when, simply, they are being self piteous. So, depending on each individual experience we may take quite a range of views, whether they should get medication or simply just buck up. But, in the case of boxers, who have consistently had knowhere to hide. Have dusted themselves down and got back from some of the most crushing defeats. I am pretty sure few are in the latter category of feeling sorry for themselves.

Much appreciated spencer - all under control at the moment - however thank you for your kind offer   

From what I have seen of depression it is a personal battle that is aided by medication.  I think when people are ill with depression it can be difficult for them to think their way out of their illness. It seems very self perpetuating. A cycle hard to break.  That depression can make people self destructive makes it a unique illness. Very few other illnessness I know of make human's want to self harm. In practically all situations the body and mind is hardwired to keep us alive.

I had a small fascination with the brain a few years ago and it was clear even from my amateurish research that the medical profession are still a long way off building a sophisticated chemical model of the brain using computers.  What interested me was that when they do achieve this I think they will have created artificial intelligence that simulates a human brain. Kind of scary in a way.

With impact sports there does seem to be a relationship between concussions and mental health. This is an absolutely huge issue in American football at the moment particularly with kids playing the game. The NFL has brushed the issue under the carpet for years. They have carried out their own medical studies but have never acted on them.  The lobby group for the protection of players is particularly vocal at the moment and the NFL are under pressure to respond appropriately.

Between 10 and 20% of the population are suffering from depressIon at any given time I have read many times. It is a silent killer that takes similar numbers of people as road fatalities evey year.

I have had family and friends that went through it and even though they were young men in the danger zone they pulled through and are leading full lives laughing a lot.

Some good posts.

Never suffered myself, but have witnessed it in others at close hand. Hard for the sufferers and hard for the loved ones trying to support them.

In terms of medication, the proportion of women taking to men, suggests a stigma for males taking them, probably exaggerated further in the machismo world of a sport like boxing. I agree with mandrake that smith's comments are a disgrace. Hopefully higher profile names in spor 'Coming out' will help inform educate and remove the stigma.

On a personal note, glad to see spencer and mr bounce winning their personal battles and likewise, good to have you back jabby.

Cheers milky.

one thing to note is that the perception is that anti depressants are a big thing and are addictive. But thats not the case these days. Medical advances have come a long way and anti depressants are a tool not something you become dependant upon. Their successful use only comes along if you work along side them to help make yourself better. Depression can come in waves throughout life and not necessarily something you can ever completely get rid of. But having the tools to deal with it when it does come is key.