Flower vs KP - Are the Battle Lines being drawn?

First topic message reminder :

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/07/andy-flower-england-team-director-kevin-pietersen

Interesting article on the Guardian suggesting that Andy Flower’s decision to either stay on as England director of cricket may rest on whether Kevin Pietersen remains part of the England set up. According to the article Flower has become increasingly exasperated with both Pietersen’s cavalier attitude to batting and the effect his ego has on the dressing room, with the root of the issues dating back to the infamous texts he sent to the South African players.

I really do not know what to make of this, think in any sport or team no player can be bigger than the team and the same should apply to KP. I can also have some sympathy with his views on KP’s batting, I have often thought that I struggle to think of a player of comparable talent who gets out in quite so many stupid ways. It also seems somewhat clear that KP has an ego to match his prodigious talent.

However whilst all this may be true as someone posted on another thread is the job of management not to manage egos and different personalities and get the best of them. Would have to think at the top levels of sport egos and over inflated opinions of one’s own worth are not exactly unusual traits to encounter. Also from a purely cricketing perspective whilst Pietersen may have many faults he is a box office player, perhaps the only English batsman we have capable of gluing you to your seat as a viewer or turning a game round single handedly in the space of a session. Surely there has to be a place for such a player in the team?

Where do we stand on this? Is Flower as the overall gaffer right to make such a stance and demand, can KP be forgiven for arguably seeing off two head coaches? Is he getting to an age where his contributions to the team do not justify the baggage that is seemingly part and parcel. Would be an ignominious end to a fine career but could Pietersen’s days as an England player be coming to an end?

Those who say Pietersen can't be worked with, Michael Vaughan, in the KP stuff before the Summer Ashes, completely disagreed. How can a coach lack vital man management skills?

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

... Flower picks the match day sides right? So even if KP is included in squads he wouldnt actually have to select him on the day?

Probably going further off topic but - hey, what the heck! - I think it's a very interesting question as to who picks the team.

At Surrey's end of season wake for members, a lot was made of how the new triumvirate of Alec Stewart / Graham Ford / Graeme Smith would work together in 2014 and hopefully put things right. I put to Stewart the question of who would decide upon the eleven taking the field. I fully expected him to duck the issue and reply along the lines that all three would consult and endeavour to reach a mutual agreement. Instead, to some surprise, he said that whilst the triumvirate would decide upon the squad, it would be Smith's decision as to who made up the eleven. Stewart emphasised that it was vital for the captain to have the players he wanted on the field and so the final call had to be his.

Continuing the Surrey example, I strongly suspect that was not the case when the club had Chris Adams in charge of all cricketing matters with a younger and more impressionable captain in Rory Hamilton-Brown.

By way of analogy, Cook comes across to me as more Hamilton-Brown than Smith (with Flower in the domineering Adams role). By way of possible examples, Cook's reluctance to bowl Panesar and Borthwick in the last two Tests didn't strike me as a skipper who had pushed to have them included in his team.

Here is my prediction of how things will go:
 
1. The Mumbo-Jumbo talking, tantrum thrower will win this round of blackmailing
 
2. KP will be "scapegoated" & dropped
 
3. He will have a good time...playing the full IPL
 
4. Indians will love it...for two reasons.......first....they will get a full season of one of the biggest IPL stars..and second....more important....KP the menancing batsmen and still Eng's best batsmen... who destroyed India's medicore attacks so many times will not be there in 2014 summer series to haunt them.
 
5. India is likely to win the series...as I rated before they have an even chance with KP in the team of a narrow win...... and an enahnced chance without KP.
 
6. From the way Lankans are playing spiritedly against Pak...even they might give a hard time to Eng.
 
6. ECB/ Flower will come under fire ....and then anotehr round of drama will start in the media...." Eng shoot themselves in the foot , cut their nose to spute the face etc"
 
From the was situation stands now......two things are certain.......a) KP has little to lose and a lot to gain whichever way the cookie crumbles

b) There is guarnateed drama and masala  for media and viewers / readers, twitter flying, Morgan will appear, all an sundry will give opinions, there will be speculations.... that this situation will produce since the next test is 5 months away, no one will be in a hurry to decide anything immediately

KP_fan wrote:Here is my prediction of how things will go:
 
1. The Mumbo-Jumbo talking, tantrum thrower will win this round of blackmailing
 

Sorry KP_fan but I don't believe the many sensible posters here will give in to you that easily.

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:Here is my prediction of how things will go:
 
1. The Mumbo-Jumbo talking, tantrum thrower will win this round of blackmailing
 

Sorry KP_fan but I don't believe the many sensible posters here will give in to you that easily.

Winner!!

guildfordbat wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

... Flower picks the match day sides right? So even if KP is included in squads he wouldnt actually have to select him on the day?

Probably going further off topic but - hey, what the heck! - I think it's a very interesting question as to who picks the team.

At Surrey's end of season wake for members, a lot was made of how the new triumvirate of Alec Stewart / Graham Ford / Graeme Smith would work together in 2014 and hopefully put things right. I put to Stewart the question of who would decide upon the eleven taking the field. I fully expected him to duck the issue and reply along the lines that all three would consult and endeavour to reach a mutual agreement. Instead, to some surprise, he said that whilst the triumvirate would decide upon the squad, it would be Smith's decision as to who made up the eleven. Stewart emphasised that it was vital for the captain to have the players he wanted on the field and so the final call had to be his.

Continuing the Surrey example, I strongly suspect that was not the case when the club had Chris Adams in charge of all cricketing matters with a younger and more impressionable captain in Rory Hamilton-Brown.

By way of analogy, Cook comes across to me as more Hamilton-Brown than Smith (with Flower in the domineering Adams role). By way of possible examples, Cook's reluctance to bowl Panesar and Borthwick in the last two Tests didn't strike me as a skipper who had pushed to have them included in his team.

Would agree with your final synopsis there Guildford. I always think the captain should be strong enough to pick his own side from the squad given, if the leader doesn't have faith in his own players, that has a horrid effect on that person in the most part. I know I've been on both ends of the stick in terms of cricket.

banbrotam wrote:

--Averages 33, in the last year   

I completely agree with the implication that a Test batting average over the last year isn't - or shouldn't be - good enough.

I do wonder though who is good enough to step up from the County Championship and replace Pietersen. Whilst somewhat limited due to Pietersen's unavailability, his stats in that competition for Surrey over the last two seasons still show just how good he is compared to his county peers and perhaps indicate what a massive leap it is from there to the Test arena.

CC matches played in 2012 and 2013: 5
Innings: 8
Not Outs: 2
Runs: 749
Highest Score: 234*
100s: 3
50s: 2
Average: 124.83

The above doesn't mean England should keep Pietersen at all costs. However, if he is to be shown the door we need to be fully aware what we are losing and why.

Agree, for me KP is still the best batsmen England have along with Cook and Bell, so needs to be retained. There's no one pressuring his position really so why drop him just for the sake of it.

Liam wrote:Agree, for me KP is still the best batsmen England have along with Cook and Bell, so needs to be retained. There's no one pressuring his position really so why drop him just for the sake of it.

Hmm

so are you willing to lose Flower for the sake of a past his prime scratching and averaging 30ish batsman

I hope KPF's first prediction doesn't prove right. But I earnestly hope the rest of it all comes through if he gets it right with the first one. I also hope KP will have a fabulous time at Surrey if he's dropped.

msp83 wrote:I hope KPF's first prediction doesn't prove right. But I earnestly hope the rest of it all comes through if he gets it right with the first one. I also hope KP will have a fabulous time at Surrey if he's dropped.

 
msp..I have said this before..it's Eng's moment of truth...or "where rubber meets the road" as the americans would say it...
 
Imagine where would  Aus be if they chose to retain Arthur after the homeworkgate....
Where would India be if they didn't replace Chappell mid-way throuhg his tenure with Kirsten.
 
Neither Indians nor Aus would be too unhappy if Eng chose the equivalent of retaining Arthur option........SA would't care as they are in a league above anyway.
 
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/cricket/article3969934.ece
see link above....Times is reporting thouhg that Flower will invoke the county / vs. IPL drama.
Play full county else you are not eligible to play for Eng...ha ha ...I told ya....there will be the same masala drama of reintegration played before the last Ind series
 

Flower has already been talking about more pain before the glory days are back. Anticipatory bail?

msp83 wrote:I hope KPF's first prediction doesn't prove right. But I earnestly hope the rest of it all comes through if he gets it right with the first one. I also hope KP will have a fabulous time at Surrey if he's dropped.

Msp - at the moment and ever since he signed for us, Pietersen's Surrey contract is tied to his England central contract. Thus, Surrey have him when, but only when, he is made available by England - that's normally only once or twice a season (it was more in 2012 due to ''textgate'') but Surrey themselves don't pay him anything so can't really complain.

From a purely Surrey perspective, it would be brilliant if Pietersen were to retain his central contract but be dropped by England. However, if Pietersen were to lose his central contract, his being contracted to Surrey would end at the same time. There have been calls over the last couple of days on the Surrey Supporters' website for the club ''to break the bank'' and sign him themselves if his central contract ends. Nice thought but I doubt Pietersen - despite his good relationship with the club - would want the continuing demands of county cricket on an ongoing basis. Also, it could cause problems with the salary cap imposed upon all counties.

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:I hope KPF's first prediction doesn't prove right. But I earnestly hope the rest of it all comes through if he gets it right with the first one. I also hope KP will have a fabulous time at Surrey if he's dropped.

 
msp..I have said this before..it's Eng's moment of truth...or "where rubber meets the road" as the americans would say it...
 
Imagine where would  Aus be if they chose to retain Arthur after the homeworkgate....
Where would India be if they didn't replace Chappell mid-way throuhg his tenure with Kirsten.
 
Neither Indians nor Aus would be too unhappy if Eng chose the equivalent of retaining Arthur option........SA would't care as they are in a league above anyway.
 
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/sport/cricket/article3969934.ece
see link above....Times is reporting thouhg that Flower will invoke the county / vs. IPL drama.
Play full county else you are not eligible to play for Eng...ha ha ...I told ya....there will be the same masala drama of reintegration played before the last Ind series
 

KPF, the English themselves moved on from Duncan Flecher after all that he did for English cricket. Flecher has been the best of England's recent coaches. Those who remember the depths of low of 1999 would understand what I am talking about. But he made major mistakes in the 06 Ashes, couldn't effectively manage the likes of Fredye Flintoff, and the cricket authorities rightly decided to move on. Perhaps a bit of that sense still remain in there somewhere........
By the way, I didn't like the BCCI's call with their latest coach.......

guildfordbat wrote:

msp83 wrote:I hope KPF's first prediction doesn't prove right. But I earnestly hope the rest of it all comes through if he gets it right with the first one. I also hope KP will have a fabulous time at Surrey if he's dropped.

Msp - at the moment and ever since he signed for us, Pietersen's Surrey contract is tied to his England central contract. Thus, Surrey have him when, but only when, he is made available by England - that's normally only once or twice a season (it was more in 2012 due to ''textgate'') but Surrey themselves don't pay him anything so can't really complain.

From a purely Surrey perspective, it would be brilliant if Pietersen were to retain his central contract but be dropped by England. However, if Pietersen were to lose his central contract, his being contracted to Surrey would end at the same time. There have been calls over the last couple of days on the Surrey Supporters' website for the club ''to break the bank'' and sign him themselves if his central contract ends. Nice thought but I doubt Pietersen - despite his good relationship with the club - would want the continuing demands of county cricket on an ongoing basis. Also, it could cause problems with the salary cap imposed upon all counties.

Pietersen's contract runs till September doesn't it? Doubt England would cut his contract even if the petulant coach wins his war on KP, as that could lead to serious legal issues.

Msp - don't know about the length of Pietersen's central contract but you could well be right about it running until September. That would certainly appear to suit Surrey if England do ditch him - unless Pietersen then decided enough is enough and wanted away altogether.

England would certainly need strong reasons to be able to legally terminate Pietersen's contract before the end date.

Still all speculation on the big picture but trust that covers the Surrey angle.

If his twitter and facebook posts are anything to go by, Pietersen won't give up without a fight.

msp83 wrote:If his twitter and facebook posts are anything to go by, Pietersen won't give up without a fight.

if there is a fight KP will win......the reason is obvious  

guildfordbat wrote:

England would certainly need strong reasons to be able to legally terminate Pietersen's contract before the end date.
.

Theres nothing in the contract that says they have to pick him.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:

England would certainly need strong reasons to be able to legally terminate Pietersen's contract before the end date.
.

Theres nothing in the contract that says they have to pick him.

That's right. The point being made though was that if Pietersen is ditched by England, he could end up playing more for Surrey until his central contract runs out.

Would a refusal to return to the counties and going to the IPL constitute grounds to terminate his contract? Reading the speculation (key word) in the press this seems to be where the battle will be fought, as Flower seems keen for the players to get some county hours in before the summer tests.

http://www.espncricinfo.com/ci/content/video_audio/708513.html?genre=34

Eng can't be two faced on IPL promise....is a good discussion on CI.....especially that Flower is spinning the digressions towards the known populist themes of KP and IPL

Rowley wrote:Would a refusal to return to the counties and going to the IPL constitute grounds to terminate his contract? Reading the speculation (key word) in the press this seems to be where the battle will be fought, as Flower seems keen for the players to get some county hours in before the summer tests.

Jeff - that could well be the key question.

From a cricketing viewpoint, imo Flower would be entirely right to require ''the players to get some county hours in before the summer tests''. I've posted the same previously and believe it's very important the players find form in a long version of the game before the next Test.

However, from a legal viewpoint, I suspect it could be a minefield with City lawyers hoping things get to Court in anticipation of rich pickings. On the face of it, Flower's demand is reasonable (a significant consideration for contractual disputes). However, Pietersen has played IPL previously and presumably with the EWCB's express consent - has that created a precedent for Pietersen to play IPL now in advance of this summer's Tests? When ''textgate'' was resolved, was anything then said to Pietersen about him being permitted to play IPL in the future? Could Pietersen's lawyers argue that him having to forfeit the IPL to play Tests was an unreasonable restraint of trade?

Yet again, very little is clear or certain.

It is something of a minefield isn’t it Guildford. My own view, just from a common sense perspective is as a centrally contracted England player, England and the wills of the England management and coaching staff should come first. Obviously the game moves on and the IPL is simply too lucrative for players for the ECB to ignore, is inevitable players will want a piece of the pie.

However I may be in a minority in this view but I very much believe participation should be a privilege not a right. Had England retained the Ashes in a resounding fashion one would like to think Flower would happily wave the players off to the IPL and instruct them to fill their boots. However as we all know, none of that happened, we lost horrifically and nobody displayed any kind of form. Given this I do not feel it unreasonable for Flower to ask of his players whatever he feels necessary to ensure they get some form back and do not perform quite so ineptly in the summer, if the IPL is not part of that plan then so be it.

However as you have alluded to whether the players and their highly paid lawyers will agree with this seems unlikely.

I think he'll play a bit for Surrey. His social media comments indicate last year indicate that he had some morning glory finding out Smith and Ponting were going to team up with him. Ponting has retired, but KP and Smith are closer friends than KP and any one in the English set-up. He'll want to get around to playing with Smith sharpish (to this end Surrey should try sign Prior, Dernbach, and Kieswetter to see if South Africa could win the County Championship).

Strange as it may seem, I'd say England have bigger concerns than KP. Your Captain is the most important player in the team at all times - Cooks just lost 5-0 against a very limited team. He isnt batting very well, and has the imagination of a chick flick writer. Cook was built up for this for a decade, so you can't halt the project at the first failure. I'm not sure picking KP as VC is a good idea, or even an average one. He probably isn't going to play past South Africa 2015 (or even earlier -Ashes 2015?). Need a protege now. In South Africa Quinton de Kock is only 21, but he's slowly being groomed to take the reigns. Changing fields, discussing plans with bowlers, etc - Okay most Wicketkeeper's do this, but not 21-year old ones (the fact that his attitude is the reason he was dropped as skipper for the u/19 side notwithstanding).

- To complicate matters, England don't have an opening batsman. I don't buy the idea that Cook's problems were exacerbated by Carberry's strike rate. How a guy who batted alongside Strauss for eight years finds a slow strike rate on the other side is mystifying. But decisions have to be made. No point arguing the strength of your #4, when 1-3 aren't performing well, especially when your #4 is KP, and not Kallis.

I've said the entire Ashes that KP is a spoilt brat, he always has been a spoilt brat, and I don't particularly think highly of him as team player post text-gate. But he's always been a pr.ick The key isn't whether KP's attitude is harmful to the English squad, but wether an ageing superstar averaging 33 for a year is really worth the pompous prima Donna who may or not have a God-complex. Flower is staying on, I don't think there is any doubt of that. So let's discuss the reality of the matter

Rowley wrote:Would a refusal to return to the counties and going to the IPL constitute grounds to terminate his contract? Reading the speculation (key word) in the press this seems to be where the battle will be fought, as Flower seems keen for the players to get some county hours in before the summer tests.

I am not sure. Even if it does, I don't think the ECB would do that. for a start, they reached an arrangement with the PCA and rescheduled the start of the test season so that England players would be able to make themselves available for a greater duration in the IPL. If they use IPL to target Pietersen in particular, legal minds can still find serious problems in there and the matter will certainly be dragged to the doors of the court. It can also vitiate ECB's relations with the BCCI. So if KP doesn't retire and Flower wins the war, then the selectors can simply drop Pietersen and let his contract run the course, and that would be a very uncomfortable situation for Flower, particularly if England's performances do not improve, and KP gets himself among the runs for his county.

kingraf wrote:


I've said the entire Ashes that KP is a spoilt brat, he always has been a spoilt brat, and I don't particularly think highly of him as team player post text-gate. But he's always been a pr.ick The key isn't whether KP's attitude is harmful to the English squad, but wether an ageing superstar averaging 33 for a year is really worth the pompous prima Donna who may or not have a God-complex. Flower is staying on, I don't think there is any doubt of that. So let's discuss the reality of the matter

Think this may be the point. While we still really have no idea what's going on or, indeed, if anything IS going on (despite some posters here having already decided that all the press reports are gospel, and that it's all Flower's doing), the question may well boil down to whether KP is good enough and important enough to England NOW and in the future, to deserve what might be seen as special treatment.

We have another South African willing to jump ship!.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/current/story/708559.html

msp83 wrote:We have another South African willing to jump ship!.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/southafrica/content/current/story/708559.html

Good luck to him.
But the fact that he's almost 25 and, as far as I can tell, is yet to play FC cricket, means he will struggle to fulfill his ambition IMO.

The kid tells a lot of truths - I play club cricket with a black kid who played u/19 national week in 2012. Talk about God-awful. The quota system doesn't help black players at all. I gave a detailed account of the why on the rugby thread, I'll look for it, as I lack the energy to discuss it now.

With that said, five years in England, one FC match and he thinks he's gained the right to moan?

http://media.theage.com.au/national/selections/an-english-view-of-the-ashes-5064878.html

Monty in a video interview on Aussie channel...talking about ashes, dressing room, KP, his own role...

not quite unintelligent as I was given the impression....quite impressive actually

doesn't Monty have a degree in mathematics?

Didn't Monty try and pull some blonde girl in Australia? Or was that tabloid rubbish?

Duty281 wrote:Didn't Monty try and pull some blonde girl in Australia? Or was that tabloid rubbish?

Monty seems what's called in urban hindi a "tharki"

get rid of KP, no man is bigger than the team, however the decision from Delhi to not renew his ipl contract may actually hit him that he will still need international cricket for his stock to rise, and not drop..

CF wrote:get rid of KP, no man is bigger than the team, however the decision from Delhi to not renew his ipl contract may actually hit him that he will still need international cricket for his stock to rise, and not drop..

bear in mind IPL Franchisees are like a private corporation and decisions are made as per business interests...directives are not passed bureaucratically as in national selections.

That KP was not renewed would more be down to discussions between his agents and DD.

and being their high value performers they probably understood his point to not bring his name up at all given that his "enemies" are waiting to pounce on any such news.

depending on how the cookie crumbles in the ECB-Flower-KP-county-IPL-rebuilding drama.......KP's agents will finalize the deal with IPL Franchisees.

The word is now that DD has fired their ex-captain Sehwag.....KP is top on their list as the captain for DD if he can play most of the season and they will wait for a few months.

Saving some words : Delhi released all their players.

No story here.

After their horrer show last year, this was not at all unexpected from DD. Pietersen will still be a big name when the auctions come around.

Seems the Ashes loss has knocked the stuffing out of Alastair Cook. He won't be asserting anything in the near future.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/the-ashes-2013-14/content/current/story/709025.html

Oh for heavens sake !

Yes it sounds wishy washy : but what the hell was Cook supposed to say ? He doesn't pick the bloody team !

Shame on the reporters determined to subject the seriously under pressure Cook to a bit more unnecessary rubbish...

alfie wrote:Oh for heavens sake !

Yes it sounds wishy washy : but what the hell was Cook supposed to say ?  He doesn't pick the bloody team !

Shame on the reporters determined to subject the seriously under pressure Cook to a bit more unnecessary rubbish...

But even before the analysis started, Cook got the guarantee that he'll stay on as skipper, 'Vote Of Confidence' hasn't he? In the end, I'd say keeping Cook in is a fair call, but the point that his captaincy was poor, his batting was terrible should have been brought on the table, and the lack of guarantee should have applied to Cook and the stubborn and seemingly vindictive director of cricket as well.

This media fascination to marginalise KP from the rest of England cricket is really stupid and distracting from the real issues that have weakened England in recent years - despite the good results (there has only been two very poor series - away to UAE & Australia).  

Now they are making Cook look like an inexperienced ditherer - he needs to give his full support to all players including KP without making commitments e.g. "I fully support KP, he is a great player, I fully imagine he is going to be a key player in the Ashes series of 2015, but at the moment we need to work out what went wrong here in Australia and what can be done to prevent it happening again ..."

Nore Staat wrote:This media fascination to marginalise KP from the rest of England cricket is really stupid and distracting from the real issues that have weakened England in recent years - despite the good results (there has only been two very poor series - away to UAE & Australia).  

Now they are making Cook look like an inexperienced ditherer - he needs to give his full support to all players including KP without making commitments e.g. "I fully support KP, he is a great player, I fully imagine he is going to be a key player in the Ashes series of 2015, but at the moment we need to work out what went wrong here in Australia and what can be done to prevent it happening again ..."

Exactly. There was no need to guarantee anyone's place in the side as such, but as skipper, Cook has to come up with something more responsible, a general support to all the players including KP would have been more than enough.
Doubt too much of the blame can be at the media's door though.

There is something in the media stories but it is far too incessant and personality driven for my liking.  Last year the media portrayed Australia Cricket as being in complete disarray (sacking their coach before the summer ashes etc) ... now 6 months later it seems like English cricket is in complete disarray (Trott, Swan, Prior, KP - Flowers / Cook? issues plus a hammering from the Aussies).

You can never be too critical of the media. By and large , they are totally irresponsible and mainly interested in stirring up trouble.

alfie wrote:You can never be too critical of the media.  By and large , they are totally irresponsible and mainly interested in stirring up trouble.

the smart ones can use the media to their advantage....and media is able to stir and get "sellable" masala from the mediocre ones.
Cook did not handle this one smartly

IMO KP should be ejected from the test side something is clearly going on inside the camp as this story has rumbled ...well for years now..

however today has shown quite well that england miss KP at the top of the order in limited overs cricket..

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/jan/10/yorkshire-england-ashes-root-bairstow

yorkshire's Moxon has criticized Flower the mishandling of Root

CF wrote:IMO KP should be ejected from the test side something is clearly going on inside the camp as this story has rumbled ...well for years now..

however today has shown quite well that england miss KP at the top of the order in limited overs cricket..

England will miss KP if they get rid of him, whatever the form of the game, because he's our best batsman (or second best if you prefer Cook).

They are already missing "the old KP" during his current extended dip in form