1st ODI thread, Melbourne

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

First topic message reminder :

"@ECB_cricket: Eng: Cook (c), Bell, Root, Ballance, Morgan, Bopara, Buttler, Stokes, Bresnan, Jordan, Rankin #ausveng"

That's our team. We gonna get done

Aus: DA Warner, AJ Finch, SR Watson, MJ Clarke*, GJ Bailey, GJ Maxwell, BJ Haddin†, JP Faulkner, NM Coulter-Nile, CJ McKay, XJ Doherty

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

The problems for England really start with Cook and Root being woefully out of form.

In regard to specialist bowlers, it would be nice but they are the ones not delivering. Sure maybe England miss Broad and Anderson but looking back over recent times Bopara has been one of Englands most effective players with the ball. Hence why hes now considered a realistic option to fiddle through 10 overs.

Aus rely on the likes of Maxwell, in the absence of a genuine spinner who demands a place I can understand England wanting to see more of potential test players ( Ballance, Rankin, Jordan) than picking one for the sake of wanting 4 proper specialist bowlers.

They also keep getting nonked for not batting aggressively, this line up gave them that opportunity despite the early wickets. They do bat depp and have plenty of "finishers" now, and posted a reasonable total especially given the wasting of 4 overs by Root.

They could pick anyone they like, but f those players dont play close to the level expected of them it wont really matter. Still haunted by woeful form of senior players.

Plus: Buttler, looks like his form hasnt deserted him.

[guildfordbat]

Certainly agree that we need to bring in another bowler. Feel that we were quite fortunate to get away with things on the bowling front as much as we did in this ODI.

I've no issue with having Bopara and Root available as back-up bowlers but believe it is asking an awful lot for a combo of the two to effectively become our fifth bowler and be expected to bowl 10 overs. As it so happened, their joint figures ended up being fairly tidy and were not that different from Jordan's (although, as per Alfie's post, his bowling was clearly superior and deserved better reward). However, I'm pretty confident that Australia would have successfully targeted this 'fifth bowler combo' if they had batted first or needed to up the tempo when chasing their victory target.

[Guest]

Get Finn in for Rankin, whatever form he's in, he has to be a better bet than Rankin at the moment...and what worries me with Rankin is this 'cramp issue',that stopped him from bowling his full quota again yesterday...

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Bopoot have generaly returned better figures than many of the "proper" bowlers. Lets not forget aus managed to win comfortably depaite relying on glen maxwell.

Rankin clearly has a problem, but may get another chance before broad returns for the 3rd match.

Aus are bringing back Johnson and resting Watson

[guildfordbat]

Bopoot have generaly returned better figures than many of the "proper" bowlers. Lets not forget aus managed to win comfortably depaite relying on glen maxwell.

...

Peter - the stats may not back this up but my impression is that Bopara rarely bowls a full quota of permitted overs. It sems that he gets a few fairly tidy overs out of the way and then England decide to stick. Nothing wrong with that and pretty sensible if he's a back up bowler helping out when, as you might say, Rankin is being tonked or going down with cramp. However, if Bopara is part of a ''fifth bowler combo'' you've still got to find another few overs from Root or god knows where, as well as hoping the four ''proper'' bowlers don't let you down and bowl their full allotment.

Maxwell appears to be ''another Surrey mystery''. Near to useless for that county in one dayers whilst still effective for his country.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Bopoot being the combination of root and bopara.

If you look at them as a pair in games they've played together they typically bowl 10 overs for a wicket at 5 an over. Not wicket taking but handy economical stuff to fiddle the dull overs. Its left to the strike bowlers to do the damage, and Tredwell aint one of those.

For me its Bresnan and Rankin who are the issue in that line up, along with Cook and Roots form with the bat.
If those two were fired up and you had a fit Broad and Anderson or Finn in youd have a very aggressive looking side.

Putting in an out and out spinner (ie not another bits and peices player like Borthwick) would leave an exposed tail and the likes of Buttler too often left poking around with 40 overs or greater pressure on Cook and Root to not actually score incase they get out ( then get out).

Obviously something has to give and I do get the argument taht it is a touch light on the bowling options. Im just chucking out an alternative there that playing 6 genuine batters should allow you to pick 3 bowlers for their bowling rather than their batting and allowing them to bowl for wickets...which with Bresnan in there Im not convinced they have...and in the case of Rankin it appears to be a selection based on wishful thinking rather than what hes delivering on this tour. Although Broads rest also plays a part in that, as does Finns apparent struggles.

[guildfordbat]

Peter - sorry, I was being astoundingly dense in thinking that 'Bopoot' was a typo for Bopara or one of your clever nameplays for him that went over me.

Now fully see where you're coming from and why. Appreciate your recognition that 'it is a touch light on the bowling options' but understand why you want to go down that route.

For me, I do wonder if too many have been too quick to write off Tredwell. I would like to see him given another go. Sure, Australia will again look to take him on but that might actually be our best chance of getting a few quick wickets before much damage is done.

It's hard at the moment to envisage too many available seamers getting a hatful of ODI wickets for England. Jordan just might - although I'm still waiting for him to revert to Surrey type and bowl a load of no balls plus too many legitimate freebies. Rankin looks desperately short of confidence whilst Bresnan is experienced but hardly threatening. Finn must be about as popular as Pietersen if he can't get near this England team - just what is going on with the Middlesex fastman? Bopoot, we've already covered.

As you suggested earlier, it's all going to be pretty academic if the main men don't stand up and soon.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Bopoot being the combination of root and bopara.

If you look at them as a pair in games they've played together they typically bowl 10 overs for a wicket at 5 an over. Not wicket taking but handy economical stuff to fiddle the dull overs. Its left to the strike bowlers to do the damage, and Tredwell aint one of those.

For me its Bresnan and Rankin who are the issue in that line up, along with Cook and Roots form with the bat.
If those two were fired up and you had a fit Broad and Anderson or Finn in youd have a very aggressive looking side.

Putting in an out and out spinner (ie not another bits and peices player like Borthwick) would leave an exposed tail and the likes of Buttler too often left poking around with 40 overs or greater pressure on Cook and Root to not actually score incase they get out ( then get out).

Obviously something has to give and I do get the argument taht it is a touch light on the bowling options. Im just chucking out an alternative there that playing 6 genuine batters should allow you to pick 3 bowlers for their bowling rather than their batting and allowing them to bowl for wickets...which with Bresnan in there Im not convinced they have...and in the case of Rankin it appears to be a selection based on wishful thinking rather than what hes delivering on this tour. Although Broads rest also plays a part in that, as does Finns apparent struggles.

Pretty much agree word for word with you here Peter

[Guest]

Stokes at 7, and then you can play 4 proper bowlers, meaning you have your 50 overs there, and if a bowler has an off day, then Bops and Root are 6th,7th bowlers, which is what they merely are....Get Finn and one of the spinners in the side!

[msp83]

James Tredwell got tonked in the summer ODI series against Australia. But before that, he was a top ODI bowler for England, and people had talked about Swann getting the room to retire from ODIs and focus on tests....... Tredwell has taken 36 wickets from 24 matches, and even after travelling a bit in the previous series, has an economy rate under 5. He bowled well against India in India, believe me, that is a seriously challenging task for a spinner....... One series doesn't make him a bad bowler.

[Liam]

Completely agree. Its worrying that England seem to think he can't play Oz after what happened last time. Who's to say this time the batsmen try and play the big shots but this time it doesn't come off?? I'd bring him back in, he's done well in ODI's for England and we need a front line spinner imo.

Finn is a must. I fail to understand why he's still there if they have no intention of playing him. The way they talk about him, it sounds like he's hitting the side netting he's that off form. I don't believe it, Rankin has done nothing to justify being ahead of him and cramping up again?! don't know what's going on there but that's worrying. In Test cricket ok but only 8 overs in ODI cricket is pretty rubbish if you ask me.

[msp83]

Steven Finn is fast becoming a lost story of England cricket...... The control freaks had him dropped from the ODI side in the name of 'Control', and that's where his recent troubles really started.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Peter - sorry, I was being astoundingly dense in thinking that 'Bopoot' was a typo for Bopara or one of your clever nameplays for him that went over me.

Now fully see where you're coming from and why. Appreciate your recognition that 'it is a touch light on the bowling options' but understand why you want to go down that route.

For me, I do wonder if too many have been too quick to write off Tredwell. I would like to see him given another go. Sure, Australia will again look to take him on but that might actually be our best chance of getting a few quick wickets before much damage is done.

It's hard at the moment to envisage too many available seamers getting a hatful of ODI wickets for England. Jordan just might - although I'm still waiting for him to revert to Surrey type and bowl a load of no balls plus too many legitimate freebies. Rankin looks desperately short of confidence whilst Bresnan is experienced but hardly threatening. Finn must be about as popular as Pietersen if he can't get near this England team - just what is going on with the Middlesex fastman? Bopoot, we've already covered.

As you suggested earlier, it's all going to be pretty academic if the main men don't stand up and soon

Yep.

I wonder a bit with the selections if they have been looking as much "at the bigger picture" as they have with picking the best team to win.

Firstly Tredwells omission. They know what they get with him. Root and Cook are in a mess; two choices: drop them or back them. In choosing to give them a chance to score themselves happy ( and the team too) a batting heavy side was picked. In theory they should have the confidence to play their  game knowing its not the end of the game if they get out. The team as a whole was desperately in need of runs. The bowling, even without a specialist spinner, was in theory capable if not brilliant and it also gave Root the added confidence of knowing he could make a contribution in both innings and was vital to the side ( despite having been dropped for the last test).
Bat first, get a decent score. The inexperienced/light bowling unit has something to defend. Bat second, the bowlers are under pressure but know its not a disaster if Aus are scoring fairly freely. Lower the pressure.
The selection of Rankin again, back a player and give him a chance. This is more his natural environment, was it just tests or does he have a serious issue? Looks like hes caught something off Shah. Will he get another game? Doubt it.
Jordan over Finn...well Jordan was the last man in. Has Finn done enough in the nets to displace him? Apparently not. Maybe we need a new bowling coach.

As it is some things worked others didnt, and we are still a long way from a winning England side. I do suspect Tredwell will get a go. For Bresnan or Rankin? That doesnt really solve the 4 proper bowlers thing and leaves two similar orthodox spin options. So will they kick Root again on the grounds of his continued failures?

[VTR]

England have won a cricket match!

Bopara with interesting figures of 3-0-3-4 . Doesn't sound like the opposition was much good.

[msp83]

England would take a win against any opposition at this stage.
They played Tredwell, hopefully he'll play the next game. Interestingly, no Steven Finn even for this game against a 4th rate side.......

[Pal Joey]

England have won a cricket match!

Bopara with interesting figures of 3-0-3-4 . Doesn't sound like the opposition was much good.

The future looks a lot brighter for England.   

Oh dear, Cook and Root still in the doldrums I see.

They'll come good later in the year (hopefully) for you guys.

[VTR]

True that we will take any win but not sure what we learned from this match. We knew about Cook and Root, both out to Brett Lee (didn't realise he was still playing - is he even quick these days?).

And the bowling was not really tested as no batsmen got going. That may be a bit harsh as you could say well done for bowling them out for 90-odd, but of course the Aussie batting line up is confident and able to really get after the bowlers

[guildfordbat]

True that we will take any win but not sure what we learned from this match. We knew about Cook and Root, both out to Brett Lee (didn't realise he was still playing - is he even quick these days?).

And the bowling was not really tested as no batsmen got going. That may be a bit harsh as you could say well done for bowling them out for 90-odd, but of course the Aussie batting line up is confident and able to really get after the bowlers

Hopefully the win and some useful individual performances will restore a bit of confidence. However, it does seem to have the feel of those warm up matches before the Tests.

[alfie]

Any win is better than losing.

Can't hurt that Buttler had a good hitout . And the much-reviled Bresnan ...

Cook and Root still not getting going. Cook at least is getting out quickly which can happen to anyone - gets a start on Friday and who knows ? Root though seems to be incapable of scoring runs at present , and I think might benefit from a rest...in fact I was a little surprised he played instead of Carberry in Melbourne ; though I suppose he was the spin option there in the absence of Tredwell.


Finn I understand was actually kidnapped some weeks ago and the ECB are still withholding the information so as not to alarm msp   

Team for Brisbane : Cook Carberry Bell Ballance Morgan Buttler Ravi-the-wrecker Stokes Bresnan Tredwell Jordan ? Maybe too light on bowling though..

[Duty281]

Finn being kidnapped would make sense....when was the last time anyone saw him?

Maybe Flower's holding him to ransom to keep his job!

[Pal Joey]

I thought he was offered a contract with the Maroochydore Marlins?   

No doubt he'll turn up when he feels he's had enough whitebait.

[msp83]

Finn I understand was actually kidnapped some weeks ago and the ECB are still withholding the information so as not to alarm msp  .....

Alfie, my follow-up to this shocking revelation suggests that is a gang connected with Kevin Pietersen who is behind it all!.

[guildfordbat]

Team for Brisbane : Cook Carberry Bell Ballance Morgan Buttler Ravi-the-wrecker Stokes Bresnan Tredwell Jordan ?  Maybe too light on bowling though..

Alfie - yes, it does seem too light on bowling, for me anyway. You've really only got 5 bowlers there - including Bopara - and so are relying on all of them to fire and deliver 10 overs each. Very little in the way of back up - Carberry and Bell, I suppose, but that does seem rather desperate.

How about bringing in Woakes and leaving out a batsman? He could comfortably bat at 8 in just the one change to the team you suggest.

Difficult to see many bowling options - from playing no front line spinner last time, can't envisage them now bringing in Briggs as well as Tredwell. Of the others - Broad rested, Rankin badly out of sorts - he bowled 6 wides today (not even 5 wides off one ball but 6 wides from 6 balls!) and Finn kidnapped!

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Drop Root for Tredwell to add more depth to the batting

[jimbohammers]

Carberry should be playing. His strength is the one day format. Look at his stats in the last 2 years for Hampshire.

Was also the 2nd highest run scorer for England in Ashes, I know that is still quite low, but why does he get the most stick? Root is well out of form, cook has a habit of getting out in the first over.

[msp83]

Cook
Bell
Ballance
Morgan
Bopara
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
Jordan
Tredwell
Finn.

[CaledonianCraig]

I am gobsmacked that they never played Finn today. He should of at least been given a chance to show where he is at with his game and as it turned out I am sure he could and should have been accommodated in the side without endangering the result. The way I see it is that they may as well send him home now.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Carberry should be playing. His strength is the one day format. Look at his stats in the last 2 years for Hampshire.

Was also the 2nd highest run scorer for England in Ashes, I know that is still quite low, but why does he get the most stick? Root is well out of form, cook has a habit of getting out in the first over.

Trouble with Root for Carberry is that it leave sthe bowling even shorter. Youd have to lose another batsman for Tredwell, who goes...Cook? Aint gonna happen ...although I wouldve like to have seen him rested the press wouldve had a field day.

At least England have given these guys a chance to play themselves into form. Cook, Root, Rankin have all been given a fair crack. No more revolving door.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Cook
Bell
Ballance
Morgan
Bopara
Stokes
Buttler
Woakes
Jordan
Tredwell
Finn.

A pretty sensible side on paper

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

I am gobsmacked that they never played Finn today. He should of at least been given a chance to show where he is at with his game and as it turned out I am sure he could and should have been accommodated in the side without endangering the result. The way I see it is that they may as well send him home now.

Remeber when the aussies accused us of hiding him from them by not playing ahead of the ashes tour last time? MAybe theyve gone one further with that tactic.

[Guest]

i know we won pretty comfortably today, however its always good to see Brett Lee play. I love watching him bowl, genuine pace, fantastic action, and a very good sportsman, just a shame injuries wrecked the 2nd half of his test career...he also shortned his run-up, i remeber in 05 ashes his run up was ridiclously long!!

[jimbohammers]

Peter,

Carbs can bowl. In fact towards the end of the season he was bowling quite a bit and picking up wickets. Surprised he wasn't used at all over the Ashes series.

[Guest]

Carbs can't bowl...he's not even a part time bowler lol.....remeber him and Cook in Bangladesh bowling.....4 overs for 60, something like that....

[jimbohammers]

Took quite a few wickets in the yb40 last year CF, look it up

[jimbohammers]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/scorecard/o35228

One example.

I'm not saying he is Shane warne, but he is an ok part timer (like Joe root)

[Guest]

... Remeber when the aussies accused us of hiding him from them by not playing ahead of the ashes tour last time? MAybe theyve gone one further with that tactic.

They have also been hiding Cook, Root, Bell, Prior, ... who are these charlatans in their place?

[guildfordbat]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/scorecard/o35228

One example.

I'm not saying he is Shane warne, but he is an ok part timer (like Joe root)

Jimbo - I understand your point but believe that boat has already sailed. If Carberry was going to be considered as even a back up ODI bowler, surely the time to see what he could do with the ball was in this latest one day friendly.

[jimbohammers]

Guildford, I just mean 'he can bowl a bit' like Root, who only bowled 2 overs. I saw a comment that Root should play over Carbs because root adds a spin option, but he is well out of form with the bat?

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Fair comment on Carbs then. Think he has a chance after getting some runs, but still doenst help balance the side.
Theres a strong argument for ditiching Root for Tredwell rather a batsman

[msp83]

Tredwell for Root, Woakes for Rankin.

[msp83]

Rankin has to go out not just because he struggled in the 2 international outings he has had, but more importantly because he's not fit enough to withstand the intensity of international cricket.

[guildfordbat]

Guildford, I just mean 'he can bowl a bit' like Root, who only bowled 2 overs. I saw a comment that Root should play over Carbs because root adds a spin option, but he is well out of form with the bat?

We're fine on that, Jimbo.

In line with previous posts, I'm not a big fan of part time county bowlers bowling to international batsmen. Now and again is understandable and just sometimes works. However, certainly feel Root was over bowled in the Tests. If you are going to mix it up occasionally - don't always go to Root, try someone else sometimes. Pietersen is not a complete mug with the ball and I take your point about Carberry.

[Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler]

Tredwell for Root, Woakes for Rankin.

Surely Finn?   

[guildfordbat]

Tredwell for Root, Woakes for Rankin.

Yes, think that was my call yesterday. Woakes should be a decent numbr 7 or very decent nember 8 so - on paper - the batting should be ok.

I appreciate you can only play eleven but odd that Woakes didn't play in yesterday's one day friendly. Thought he would have needed that game more than Bresnan.

[Mike Selig]

Woakes's bowling would concern me though. A bit floaty and on these pitches he'll come onto the bat nicely. Still, worth a look to see if he's got a bit more nip now.

Also, I repeat that Rankin was England's best bowler in the home ODI series against Aus. I appreciate the point on fitness, but am a bit bemused as to how much criticism he is copping for what is essentially one poor game (in this format at least). Now imagine if Finn had been England's best bowler a series ago, then gotten limited opportunities, had one bad match and then been dropped... How pleased would everyone be then?

Just saying...

For what it's worth, I didn't see Rankin bowl in the ODI, but agree he looked short of fitness in the test match. Was that short of general fitness (in which case drop him, tell him to go away and sort it out)? or short of match fitness (in which case maybe you have to play him)?

Would like to see Overton given a game at some point as well.

Batting wise Cook definitely and Root probably need a break.

Carberry has done OK. I think the point is there is a feeling that OK is the best he is currently capable of, and at his age is hardly going to improve. There is nothing wrong with picking a player for the first time at 30+ but they really need to hit the ground running (like Rogers has, or of course Hussey before him). Not sure Carberry has done enough at his age and with his attributes to warrant being given another chance. Also his fielding is mediocre (at this level). However as first replacement he is a reasonable option, and should come in for Cook.

[msp83]

The problem with Rankin is more about his fitness. He didn't look anywhere close to the bowler in the summer in either the test or the ODI he played. But even in the last game, he had a bout of cramp like he had in the tests. I first followed Rankin in action in the 2007 World Cup. In the period leading up to him jumping the ship, I think he missed as many games as he played for Ireland. Think he has a serious fitness issue, and he's not getting young either.
And Mike, what happened to Steven Finn is not too far away from the potential scenario you sketched is it?

[jimbohammers]

Guildford, Peter   

Mike, Carberry's strength has been one day cricket. He has been the highest run sorer in the domestic comp for the last year, or at least close to it (correct me if i am wrong).

Strange comment about his fielding, bar the one drop i thought he looked our best fielder?

(no i am not his agent, haha)

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Guildford, Peter   

Mike, Carberry's strength has been one day cricket. He has been the highest run sorer in the domestic comp for the last year, or at least close to it (correct me if i am wrong).

Strange comment about his fielding, bar the one drop i thought he looked our best fielder?

(no i am not his agent, haha)

Carberry was poor in the field I thought. Yes he's athletic, but that masks a poor throw (often inaccurate, particularly there was one run out opportunity he had I think in Perth where he threatened the guy in row z more than the stumps, and that drop was not only horrific but quite possibly series changing).

[Mike Selig]

Pretty much as Olly says. He is quick, but that's about it. He was comfortably in England's bottom half of fielders, and the fact in ODIs he is often hidden in soft spots says it all; I think Stokes was probably England's best fielder, followed by Anderson, Bell, Root, Broad (Swann when he was playing would be up there also). Poor throw (he missed at least 3 run-out opportunities that I can remember), poor sense of anticipation (which he admittedly makes up for at times with his speed), average hands (not just the drop(s) - a few in the ODIs at home as well, but quite a few fumbles), at times not quick off the mark as in poor set-up position, etc. I think his fielding efforts at international level have shown up the stark difference in standards with the county game.

[jimbohammers]

Ok, that's your opinion. But easy target because he is 33?

I've seen him many times live and he has been brilliant in the field.

Oh well we can agree to disagree.

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