Barclays Premier League 13/14 Thread Part 'x'

[Crimey]

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Discuss everything Premier League

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I am left scratching my head, Giroud scores 17 goals last year and has buttload of assists Carroll scores 13 goals in the LAST THREE YEARS COMBINED and some are saying that they would rather have Carroll? The guy is English that is why some rate him because really there is no logical basis to put Carroll in Giroud's league.

Depends if you learn to read what I'm saying. Carroll is better for certain styles and situations. Plus I'm pretty sure Carroll could score 17 goals being Arsenal's main striker, that team creates chances like assists are orgasms.

Lukaku is special for my money btw, top player

[mystiroakey]

PL stats this season

welbeck 8 goals in 15(1000 mins)- (rarely played up front)

Lukaka 9 goals in 19(1500 mins!!)(allways plays up front)- has a very decent midfield functioning behind him at the moment.,

I am happy to state he is very similar to welbeck. Even though welbeck is smashing him goals to minutes.

[socal1976]

I am left scratching my head, Giroud scores 17 goals last year and has buttload of assists Carroll scores 13 goals in the LAST THREE YEARS COMBINED and some are saying that they would rather have Carroll? The guy is English that is why some rate him because really there is no logical basis to put Carroll in Giroud's league.

Depends if you learn to read what I'm saying. Carroll is better for certain styles and situations. Plus I'm pretty sure Carroll could score 17 goals being Arsenal's main striker, that team creates chances like assists are orgasms.

Lukaku is special for my money btw, top player

Giroud is also a target man so they play a similar style. I will say that carrol might be marginally better in the air than Giroud, but in every other area Giroud is better and Giroud is also good in the air. As for the midfield cop out that is a cop out. 2 of the last three years he played at Liverpool so he has not always had a weak midfield behind him. Besides the style he plays teams often bypass the midfield completely and just try to get the ball up the wing and into the box. To me Giroud can do 98 percent of what Carroll is best at but Carroll can't do some of the things Giroud can like play with the ball at his feet. You say he would be better at Arsenal than Giroud, I doubt it, Giroud is much better with ball played at his feet and is a better passer than Carroll and this suits Arsenal much more. Arsenal aren't a team that will change our entire style and just Hoof the ball about to suit Carroll. I think he would be a disaster at Arsenal just like he was a disaster at Liverpool.

[mystiroakey]

Anyway lads. As we are back on the Belgium v England tip...

The latest golden generation v the older one...both slightly overrated IMO.

What's your combined fake golden side(England /Belgium)..


Up front.

Rooney and Sturridge get the nod for me.. 

Midfield
Hazard and kompany are guaranteed spots..

[socal1976]

PL stats this season

welbeck 8 goals in 15(1000 mins)- (rarely played up front)

Lukaka 9 goals in 19(1500 mins!!)(allways plays up front)- has a very decent midfield functioning behind him at the moment.,

I am happy to state he is very similar to welbeck. Even though welbeck is smashing him goals to minutes.

He is better at holding the ball up and creating chances for that midfield with his link up play than Welbeck but like you said they are different types of players.

[owen10ozzy]

PL stats this season

welbeck 8 goals in 15(1000 mins)- (rarely played up front)

Lukaka 9 goals in 19(1500 mins!!)(allways plays up front)- has a very decent midfield functioning behind him at the moment.,

I am happy to state he is very similar to welbeck. Even though welbeck is smashing him goals to minutes.

To be fair haven't most of Welbeck's goals come when he was playing more central...i.e. during the time Rooney and then Van Persie were out?

Welbeck is having a great season and is more clinical in front of goal than ever before; but he has a midfield behind him which doesn't roam forward as much and therefore the onus is on VP, Rooney & Welbeck to score.

At Everton they have wingers who at times play as inside forwards ...i.e. Pienaar & Miralles and a Barkley who gets forward. Not to mention Baines also.

I would take Lukaku every day of the week and then some given a choice between him and Welbeck.

[Hammersmith harrier]

I wouldn't play Kompany in midfield Mysti, he's wasted there, he's the best centre back in the world by a fair distance, Ramos and Silva my arse.

[mystiroakey]

PL stats this season

welbeck 8 goals in 15(1000 mins)- (rarely played up front)

Lukaka 9 goals in 19(1500 mins!!)(allways plays up front)- has a very decent midfield functioning behind him at the moment.,

I am happy to state he is very similar to welbeck. Even though welbeck is smashing him goals to minutes.

To be fair haven't most of Welbeck's goals come when he was playing more central...i.e. during the time Rooney and then Van Persie were out?

Welbeck is having a great season and is more clinical in front of goal than ever before; but he has a midfield behind him which doesn't roam forward as much and therefore the onus is on VP, Rooney & Welbeck to score.

At Everton they have wingers who at times play as inside forwards ...i.e. Pienaar & Miralles and a Barkley who gets forward. Not to mention Baines also.

I would take Lukaku every day of the week and then some given a choice between him and Welbeck.

I am nbot sure who i would take- BUt its subjective and based on what people feel is the better fit for there team and what there potential is rather than one is better that the other.

For palace i would have to take welbeck as he is so much more than a striker. If i was a fan of a top club- i may be inclined to pick Lukaka

[Hammersmith harrier]

PL stats this season

welbeck 8 goals in 15(1000 mins)- (rarely played up front)

Lukaka 9 goals in 19(1500 mins!!)(allways plays up front)- has a very decent midfield functioning behind him at the moment.,

I am happy to state he is very similar to welbeck. Even though welbeck is smashing him goals to minutes.

To be fair haven't most of Welbeck's goals come when he was playing more central...i.e. during the time Rooney and then Van Persie were out?

Welbeck is having a great season and is more clinical in front of goal than ever before; but he has a midfield behind him which doesn't roam forward as much and therefore the onus is on VP, Rooney & Welbeck to score.

At Everton they have wingers who at times play as inside forwards ...i.e. Pienaar & Miralles and a Barkley who gets forward. Not to mention Baines also.

I would take Lukaku every day of the week and then some given a choice between him and Welbeck.

Not sure what any of those points prove, you've basically said if you play Welbeck in a central position he's a fairly clinical goal scorer.

We have a midfield that can barely create chances so for any of our forwards to be scoring at roughly a goal every two games is pretty impressive, add in Welbeck not being first choice or the focal point of the team.

Given the choice of who i'd rather see in a United or England shirt it's Welbeck easily, has far more to his game and has improved more than Lukaku has this season.

[J.Benson II]

Welbeck has been good of late. It will be interesting to see if he is just going through a purple patch or if his improvements remain consistent.
I've never been convinced by him on the wing. Often just looks like a child chasing a crisp packet in the wind.  
Up front he looks considerably better but once RVP and Rooney return, his chances there will be limited.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I am left scratching my head, Giroud scores 17 goals last year and has buttload of assists Carroll scores 13 goals in the LAST THREE YEARS COMBINED and some are saying that they would rather have Carroll? The guy is English that is why some rate him because really there is no logical basis to put Carroll in Giroud's league.

Depends if you learn to read what I'm saying. Carroll is better for certain styles and situations. Plus I'm pretty sure Carroll could score 17 goals being Arsenal's main striker, that team creates chances like assists are orgasms.

Lukaku is special for my money btw, top player

Giroud is also a target man so they play a similar style. I will say that carrol might be marginally better in the air than Giroud, but in every other area Giroud is better and Giroud is also good in the air. As for the midfield cop out that is a cop out. 2 of the last three years he played at Liverpool so he has not always had a weak midfield behind him. Besides the style he plays teams often bypass the midfield completely and just try to get the ball up the wing and into the box. To me Giroud can do 98 percent of what Carroll is best at but Carroll can't do some of the things Giroud can like play with the ball at his feet. You say he would be better at Arsenal than Giroud, I doubt it, Giroud is much better with ball played at his feet and is a better passer than Carroll and this suits Arsenal much more. Arsenal aren't a team that will change our entire style and just Hoof the ball about to suit Carroll. I think he would be a disaster at Arsenal just like he was a disaster at Liverpool.

Giroud isnt a target man in any comparable way to Carroll. Marginally better in the air is also a joke. Liverpool fans liked him, Newcastle fans liked him, majority of our lot like him. Says something to me, probably that people outside of that havent watched him and just say "hoof"

[owen10ozzy]

PL stats this season

welbeck 8 goals in 15(1000 mins)- (rarely played up front)

Lukaka 9 goals in 19(1500 mins!!)(allways plays up front)- has a very decent midfield functioning behind him at the moment.,

I am happy to state he is very similar to welbeck. Even though welbeck is smashing him goals to minutes.

To be fair haven't most of Welbeck's goals come when he was playing more central...i.e. during the time Rooney and then Van Persie were out?

Welbeck is having a great season and is more clinical in front of goal than ever before; but he has a midfield behind him which doesn't roam forward as much and therefore the onus is on VP, Rooney & Welbeck to score.

At Everton they have wingers who at times play as inside forwards ...i.e. Pienaar & Miralles and a Barkley who gets forward. Not to mention Baines also.

I would take Lukaku every day of the week and then some given a choice between him and Welbeck.

Not sure what any of those points prove, you've basically said if you play Welbeck in a central position he's a fairly clinical goal scorer.

We have a midfield that can barely create chances so for any of our forwards to be scoring at roughly a goal every two games is pretty impressive, add in Welbeck not being first choice or the focal point of the team.

Given the choice of who i'd rather see in a United or England shirt it's Welbeck easily, has far more to his game and has improved more than Lukaku has this season.

I was just wondering where most of his goals have come from, I believe it was at the start of the season when he was playing more central. As I said, he is more clinical this season...but doing it across 10 games is vastly different to doing it over 2 seasons, which as it stands Lukaku is well on his way doing.

I appreciate Welbeck's work rate though I'm not sure I would say he is versatile; yes he can play wide left, but is he particularly effective there? I'm not so sure....5 assists in 18 months (that's how many he has for Utd over last season and half of this) isn't that fantastic.

In fact here are the stats for the pair of them:

Welbeck - 42 apps Goals:9 Assists:5 (Goal Ratio 1:4.6) Ass Ratio 1:8.4
Lukaku - 51 apps Goals 26 Assists 8 (Goal Ratio 1:1.9) Ass Ratio 1:6.3

That's across the last two campaigns. Now obviously the argument will be that Welbeck wasn't first choice...but he did play a fair few number of games...you can say 'oh but it wasn't in his favoured position'...but the claim is he is versatile, yet playing as a winger (a position which required a player to create scoring chances..he still isn't as efficient as Lukaku.

[mystiroakey]

you can use those stats if you want- but they arnt telling us current form. Welbeck does beat him this season.

I mean he only had 1 goal last season. That is bad - but he rarely started and rarely played upfront when he did

Lukaka was great last season, very good this season, but then so has welbeck been.

If we are talking about striker for striker- you cannot say lukaka is better.

Lukaka wouldnt be a first choice at united either.

[Mad for Chelsea]

I would still take Torres over either of them

With my England fan hat on though, it's good to see Welbeck becoming more clinical in front of goal. His first touch has improved too. Given that - like it or not - he'll be central to England's plans to winning the World Cup getting out of their group this summer, that can't be a bad thing.

[Hammersmith harrier]

Welbeck doesn't play as a Winger Owen, he's play as a wide man given the job of containing the opposition full back, you can't really use stats to understand the role of somebody in a team just says to me you've not watched him play that much.

What I will say is that Lukaku would not have been selected by Fergie to play in the biggest game of our whole season last year (the home game against Madrid). Our whole gameplan that night revolved around Welbeck, he was the most pivotal player on the pitch and there wasn't a shortish of world class players playing. At the age of 22 he was given clear instructions to stop the supply to Ronaldo which he was doing brilliantly over the course of a game and a half, completely taking Ozil and Alonso out of the game.

[socal1976]

I am left scratching my head, Giroud scores 17 goals last year and has buttload of assists Carroll scores 13 goals in the LAST THREE YEARS COMBINED and some are saying that they would rather have Carroll? The guy is English that is why some rate him because really there is no logical basis to put Carroll in Giroud's league.

Depends if you learn to read what I'm saying. Carroll is better for certain styles and situations. Plus I'm pretty sure Carroll could score 17 goals being Arsenal's main striker, that team creates chances like assists are orgasms.

Lukaku is special for my money btw, top player

Giroud is also a target man so they play a similar style. I will say that carrol might be marginally better in the air than Giroud, but in every other area Giroud is better and Giroud is also good in the air. As for the midfield cop out that is a cop out. 2 of the last three years he played at Liverpool so he has not always had a weak midfield behind him. Besides the style he plays teams often bypass the midfield completely and just try to get the ball up the wing and into the box. To me Giroud can do 98 percent of what Carroll is best at but Carroll can't do some of the things Giroud can like play with the ball at his feet. You say he would be better at Arsenal than Giroud, I doubt it, Giroud is much better with ball played at his feet and is a better passer than Carroll and this suits Arsenal much more. Arsenal aren't a team that will change our entire style and just Hoof the ball about to suit Carroll. I think he would be a disaster at Arsenal just like he was a disaster at Liverpool.

Giroud isnt a target man in any comparable way to Carroll. Marginally better in the air is also a joke. Liverpool fans liked him, Newcastle fans liked him, majority of our lot like him. Says something to me, probably that people outside of that havent watched him and just say "hoof"

Fans liking him great Arsenal fans like Giroud it doesn't prove what player is better. The guy doesn't produce goals or assists and he is a striker it isn't like he is a defender or defensive mid and you can point to his other contributions on the pitch. He is there to score and create goals and he doesn't do that very well outside of one year at newcastle.

You claim that he would be better than Giroud at Arsenal but Arsenal play the ball on the ground and at your feet and clearly he is not as good at Giroud in that style of play. You claim that he suffers from a weak midfield but he played at Liverpool 2 of the last 3 years and failed miserably to the point that he was sold for a fraction of what he was purchased for. So really you don't have much to argue that Carroll is Giroud's equal, the stats don't back it up, his performance the last 3 years doesn't back it up, so you fall back on the fans love him argument and we like him so he must be good; which frankly is not much of an argument.

[Fernando]

Id take Lukaku because he brings more to the team then Welbeck. I suspect whilst Welbeck has scored more he's got less assists then Lukaku.

[mystiroakey]

lukaka has scored more- but not per game.

transfer market gives welbeck 3 assists to lukakas 5- similar per minute

[socal1976]

I would take Lukaku as well. I feel like Lukaku has the potential to become a world class striker I don't feel that about Welbeck, both are young guys but I feel physically and technically Lukaku has more upside. Also agree with those that point out his ability to bring others into the game and his passing.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

lukuka isnt even on par with many english strikers(and we do not have a depth of talent there)

Just a good player- 10 to a penny .Potential yes. Good yeah, better than what the opposition has- No

Lukaku is better than Welbeck.

Indeed social indeed.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I am left scratching my head, Giroud scores 17 goals last year and has buttload of assists Carroll scores 13 goals in the LAST THREE YEARS COMBINED and some are saying that they would rather have Carroll? The guy is English that is why some rate him because really there is no logical basis to put Carroll in Giroud's league.

Depends if you learn to read what I'm saying. Carroll is better for certain styles and situations. Plus I'm pretty sure Carroll could score 17 goals being Arsenal's main striker, that team creates chances like assists are orgasms.

Lukaku is special for my money btw, top player

Giroud is also a target man so they play a similar style. I will say that carrol might be marginally better in the air than Giroud, but in every other area Giroud is better and Giroud is also good in the air. As for the midfield cop out that is a cop out. 2 of the last three years he played at Liverpool so he has not always had a weak midfield behind him. Besides the style he plays teams often bypass the midfield completely and just try to get the ball up the wing and into the box. To me Giroud can do 98 percent of what Carroll is best at but Carroll can't do some of the things Giroud can like play with the ball at his feet. You say he would be better at Arsenal than Giroud, I doubt it, Giroud is much better with ball played at his feet and is a better passer than Carroll and this suits Arsenal much more. Arsenal aren't a team that will change our entire style and just Hoof the ball about to suit Carroll. I think he would be a disaster at Arsenal just like he was a disaster at Liverpool.

Giroud isnt a target man in any comparable way to Carroll. Marginally better in the air is also a joke. Liverpool fans liked him, Newcastle fans liked him, majority of our lot like him. Says something to me, probably that people outside of that havent watched him and just say "hoof"

Fans liking him great Arsenal fans like Giroud it doesn't prove what player is better. The guy doesn't produce goals or assists and he is a striker it isn't like he is a defender or defensive mid and you can point to his other contributions on the pitch. He is there to score and create goals and he doesn't do that very well outside of one year at newcastle.

You claim that he would be better than Giroud at Arsenal but Arsenal play the ball on the ground and at your feet and clearly he is not as good at Giroud in that style of play. You claim that he suffers from a weak midfield but he played at Liverpool 2 of the last 3 years and failed miserably to the point that he was sold for a fraction of what he was purchased for. So really you don't have much to argue that Carroll is Giroud's equal, the stats don't back it up, his performance the last 3 years doesn't back it up, so you fall back on the fans love him argument and we like him so he must be good; which frankly is not much of an argument.

I'd say Arsenal's midfield is better than Liverpool's then and the manager change was a massive problem too, extenuating circumstances. I think Giroud is a better fit for Arsenal than Carroll, like I said, but I think Carroll could get 17 goals there. I, again, state Carroll suits teams in certain circumstances more than Giroud. Not that you ever notice me saying that, you just get your ire up and argue with nothing.

[socal1976]

No I understand your argument I just disagree with it. I don't think Carroll would do as well at Arsenal and get 17 goals with the style Arsenal play, Carroll suits an Allardyce style game and nothing more. At West Ham he plays with a manager and system that should suit him. He played a lot of matches for Liverpool and he didn't deliver and wasted a lot of chances. I feel those that believe Carroll will develop into anything more than what he is now, a little better or little worse are wrong. I am not angry I enjoy discussing and arguing with you because we rarely agree, no fun to talk to people who just agree with you. Fair enough you have different opinion, which I don't feel is backed up by the facts but there is no ire. I understand your points and disagree.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

What I would say is that Giroud is a better footballer but I would be intrigued to see Carroll for Arsenal in the big games where they could do with more grit and someone who does more to occupy defenders. Having seen Carroll bully most defenders in this league, the big physical ones really get cut down to size, it would be interesting to see if he created a lot of space. Hes not that limited you know, he'll surprise you

[socal1976]

I just don't think Carroll would fit our team,  I think his strength lies in direct football and his aerial presence. Similar in that respect to Giroud, but Giroud brings more versatility with his passing and touch which I rate as superior to Carroll. Arsenal does not play that way, I think Carroll would have trouble in playing a lot of quick touch passes and keeping up with the quick movements and ball movement of Arsenal. I just don't rate him, at most I can see Carroll being a guy that gives you 10-12 goals a season in all comps. Yes he does pose a real physical challenge for center halves but produces little end product for his hardwork.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Anybody want an amazing stat? No...well tough!

Paul Robinson (the Blackburn GK, guy who scored for Spurs) has 5 assists in the Premier League in his career. Guess who also has that amount over his career?

[socal1976]

Anybody want an amazing stat? No...well tough!

Paul Robinson (the Blackburn GK, guy who scored for Spurs) has 5 assists in the Premier League in his career. Guess who also has that amount over his career?

You got me but that is an interesting question, who?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'll give you a clue. He plays for one of the more prominent clubs in the league, isn't too old but isn't a youngster either

[owen10ozzy]

Danny Welbeck!!

[Fernando]

Jonas Gutierrez?

Or we talking Goalkeeper wise if so id guess at Pepe Reina he's good for an assist on the break.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

Owen has the right team...

[socal1976]

Owen has the right team...

It can't be Carrick is it?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

You're incorrect Socal, but in the right area...

[Ent]

I'd be surprised if Anderson had as many as 5.

[socal1976]

Is it Fletcher.

[socal1976]

Anderson is a good guess he hardly ever plays.

[Ent]

That said it must be cleverly as he take no set pieces and hasn't played that many seasons for prem clubs considering his age.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That said it must be cleverly as he take no set pieces and hasn't played that many seasons for prem clubs considering his age.

Monsieur Ent is correct   

[socal1976]

That said it must be cleverly as he take no set pieces and hasn't played that many seasons for prem clubs considering his age.

Monsieur Ent is correct   

Nice Ent, but you threw me off when you said he wasn't a young player, so I was looking for someone a bit older, how old is cleverly isn't he still considered young?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

That said it must be cleverly as he take no set pieces and hasn't played that many seasons for prem clubs considering his age.

Monsieur Ent is correct   

Nice Ent, but you threw me off when you said he wasn't a young player, so I was looking for someone a bit older, how old is cleverly isn't he still considered young?

He's 24, I thought he was 26  

[Ent]

Cleverly is 24.

5 is still pretty poor but you'd be surprised how few assists centre midfielders get if they don't take set pieces etc.

[mystiroakey]

Pass completion, tackles won, interceptions made and key passes are the more relevant stats if you are central.

[Ent]

Depends on your role in the team.

I don't really rate stats but if you play cm and push forward to try get goals and take all set pieces you should be effecting the goal.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I'm not really trying to prove anything just found it interesting lol

[Ent]

Yeah it is, Anderson has 7 assists in the pl for us.

Who said our midfield was lacking?

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

HOW MANY DOES FELLAINI HAVE ENT HOW MANY

[GSC]

Welbeck doesn't play as a Winger Owen, he's play as a wide man given the job of containing the opposition full back, you can't really use stats to understand the role of somebody in a team just says to me you've not watched him play that much.

What I will say is that Lukaku would not have been selected by Fergie to play in the biggest game of our whole season last year (the home game against Madrid). Our whole gameplan that night revolved around Welbeck, he was the most pivotal player on the pitch and there wasn't a shortish of world class players playing. At the age of 22 he was given clear instructions to stop the supply to Ronaldo which he was doing brilliantly over the course of a game and a half, completely taking Ozil and Alonso out of the game.

Park Ji Sung must be a United legend

[Ent]

For Everton 14, not great when he was playing so far forward for a good period of time.

I've no doubt he will blossom into the next xavi when back from injury.

[mystiroakey]

For Everton 14, not great when he was playing so far forward for a good period of time.

I've no doubt he will blossom into the next xavi when back from injury.

Face it. He is the latest United lemon like veron , berba or forlan

[compelling and rich]

suprised at clevs stat, not for us he's been cack but he did have a good season with wigan. i know he scored 4 that season but cant find his assists

even more shocking is that he scored 11 in the season before for watford!

[Ent]

For Everton 14, not great when he was playing so far forward for a good period of time.

I've no doubt he will blossom into the next xavi when back from injury.

Face it. He is the latest United lemon like veron , berba or forlan

Sarcasm.

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