Six Nations : Win at all costs?

A question for you all.

Is the six nations this year genuinely a completion in its own right? By that I mean will all teams be approaching it purely to win?

Wales have a special opportunity to win three back to back. Ahead of the World Cup, there would certainly be benefit psychologically in keeping the foot on England's throats and taking momentum into World Cup year. From England's perspective, this fixture is a key one too to regain the balance of power.

But will coaches be distracted by one eye on developing depth and trying new combinations with the World Cup beginning to loom?

Is this a "devalued" year? Or is it winner takes all for glory?

absolutely no chance wales wins it. for once there will be a big scalp for all the teams to beat wales. no more sneaking under the radar after puking the first game against ireland. best bet against i have seen in several years to lay wales.

nobody thinks about rwc in 6N matches. tis the auld rivalries that resurface. plus some new score which need settling...ire vs wales

For me, the World Cup has always been a secondary concern in comparison to the Six Nations. While I don't know what the team themselves will be thinking or what the coaches' strategy will be, I would hope that Scotland will be targeting the Six Nations in particular, and letting the World Cup take care of itself.

I have it on good authority that England will win the world cup and at 24-1 or something like that here I'm going to heap some on it now...  

Not quite in line with the OP but the tea leaves cannot be denied...

Sometimes i despair. A devalued year? No 6 Nations is ever devalued. It's the mother and father of rugby competitions

WOULD a national rugby team going into the oldest rugby competition in the world enter it purely to win or, more likely, to avoid going shopping with the missus on a saturday afternoon?

SO if we asked the OP whether the Four Nations was a pre amble side show pre RWC what would his answer be?

And quins, love your confidence Wales will lose, based on what? A hugely experienced Welsh side, defending 2 Championships with what 10 winning Lions and 90% win rate in Europe in the least 2 years….yep, not a sniff of a chance.

IanBru wrote:For me, the World Cup has always been a secondary concern in comparison to the Six Nations. While I don't know what the team themselves will be thinking or what the coaches' strategy will be, I would hope that Scotland will be targeting the Six Nations in particular, and letting the World Cup take care of itself.

I am sorry mate, but that sounds a bit defeatist, who does not want to win the RWC?

Having said that, for me the importance of SA winning 80% of their matches comes before anything else, if a trophy comes our way great, but a winning record is more important to me.

I would say 2013 was devalued by most teams focussing on the Lions tour. We can discount the All Blacks wins.

It's never devalued. You could say anything is devalued as 1 team is nearly always trying a new combo or players etc. You go out to win every game no matter what. That said I don't think it's a win at all costs. I don't think Wales, England who evers chances at the world cup would be terminally affected by not finishing 1st.

quinsforever wrote:absolutely no chance wales wins it. for once there will be a big scalp for all the teams to beat wales. no more sneaking under the radar after puking the first game against ireland. best bet against i have seen in several years to lay wales.

nobody thinks about rwc in 6N matches. tis the auld rivalries that resurface. plus some new score which need settling...ire vs wales

Bring it

GloriousEmpire wrote:A question for you all.

Is the six nations this year genuinely a completion in its own right? By that I mean will all teams be approaching it purely to win?

Wales have a special opportunity to win three back to back. Ahead of the World Cup, there would certainly be benefit psychologically in keeping the foot on England's throats and taking momentum into World Cup year. From England's perspective, this fixture is a key one too to regain the balance of power.

But will coaches be distracted by one eye on developing depth and trying new combinations with the World Cup beginning to loom?

Is this a "devalued" year? Or is it winner takes all for glory?

Well done another sad little dig, and more bites...think the time has come to start complaining about every thread you start...

Serious question, is quinsforever a serious poster and do other England fans agree with his opinion i.e Wales sneaked under the radar ?

For your sakes I hope the England players don't think the same, they made that mistake before.

Wales have some great players munkian but more importantly some great combos. I still think you'd be better cutting loose and going for teams more rather than what I perceive to be Gatlands way of an arm wrestle for the majority of matches. In the majority of games I see you doing just enough. Not really sneaking under the radar but you should be further down the line by now ie regularly beating the top teams and in the SH as well not just at home. If anyone is sneaking under the radar I think it's England. 12 months ago pack was still an unknown now pretty much nailed down. Backs to follow hopefully.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Wales have some great players munkian but more importantly some great combos. I still think you'd be better cutting loose and going for teams more rather than what I perceive to be Gatlands way of an arm wrestle for the majority of matches. In the majority of games I see you doing just enough. Not really sneaking under the radar but you should be further down the line by now ie regularly beating the top teams and in the SH as well not just at home. If anyone is sneaking under the radar I think it's England. 12 months ago pack was still an unknown now pretty much nailed down. Backs to follow hopefully.

I agree, we have the players with the skills to cut loose. I think untill our bigmatch players are back from injury we need to just concentrate on winning though.

Saying that, I think this 6 nations will be even close so putting points on weaker opposition is a must

The devalued year was last year GE. Any team could have won all their matches with so many injuries and an eye on development for the RWC...

The 6N occurs too early in the year not to give it your all. The 3N or the 4N in a RWC year is where you have to be savvy. You don't want to peak in September. You want to peak in October and that means managing your resources cleverly. I don't think Oz fans care whether the last 3N was devalued. They won fair and square and deserve that success. It's like saying SA didn't win the 2007 RWC beating any decent teams. They beat all who they faced and are worthy champs because they did everything in their power that they could. Doesn't matter what might have been. Similarly Oz still won the games in 2011 that mattered and did all they could do. What might have happened is irrelevant.

A 6n coach is not going to wake up in February with a cold sweat and ask himself did we peak too soon this year. It's like an 18 year old saying is this all I'll ever have horizontal relations with?

GloriousEmpire wrote:Is this a "devalued" year? Or is it winner takes all for glory?

The answer is, of course, neither.

Between world cups we're always one/two years before or after them and once you throw in the Lions tours (for the home nations) there's not really any such thing as a 'normal' year.

I don't believe any 6Nations year is devalued, but I've seen some petty excuses on these forums such as:

Year after world cup, squad rebuilding = devalued
Year after Lions tour = devalued
France not turning up = devalued
Wales winning it = devalued

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:A question for you all.

Is the six nations this year genuinely a completion in its own right? By that I mean will all teams be approaching it purely to win?

Wales have a special opportunity to win three back to back. Ahead of the World Cup, there would certainly be benefit psychologically in keeping the foot on England's throats and taking momentum into World Cup year. From England's perspective, this fixture is a key one too to regain the balance of power.

But will coaches be distracted by one eye on developing depth and trying new combinations with the World Cup beginning to loom?

Is this a "devalued" year? Or is it winner takes all for glory?

Well done another sad little dig, and more bites...think the time has come to start complaining about every thread you start...

Huh?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:A question for you all.

Is the six nations this year genuinely a completion in its own right? By that I mean will all teams be approaching it purely to win?

Wales have a special opportunity to win three back to back. Ahead of the World Cup, there would certainly be benefit psychologically in keeping the foot on England's throats and taking momentum into World Cup year. From England's perspective, this fixture is a key one too to regain the balance of power.

But will coaches be distracted by one eye on developing depth and trying new combinations with the World Cup beginning to loom?

Is this a "devalued" year? Or is it winner takes all for glory?

Well done another sad little dig, and more bites...think the time has come to start complaining about every thread you start...

You could be right. The mods have said that they need posters to report GloriousEmpire's posts so that they can take action. He can't be far off another ban.

Now, what now? What's the issue with this thread? I think you guys are starting to see things that aren't there. Seriously.

It's just the same old tripe as usual.

Think you need a bit of a rest from this place.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Now,  what now? What's the issue with this thread? I think you guys are starting to see things that aren't there. Seriously.

Are we seeing    

It's difficult to tell. That teal grey is hard to make out.

Call Cyril's bluff GE. If you go he'll start looking like Michael J Fox in Back to the Future up on stage at the enchantment under the sea prom dance. He'll risk being erased from existence.

Cyril wrote:It's just the same old tripe as usual.

Think you need a bit of a rest from this place.

Please clearly express what you believe is the problem with enquiring whether the 6n might be used as a trial ground for RWC selections. Seems very reasonable to me.

Looks to me like you are just pursuing an agenda...the forum equivalent of diving and then miming a yellow card at the ref....

If I was a mod, I wouldn't appreciate being played like that and I'd give you a rest. Suspect you are upset because you got told not to call me Gloria yesterday.

Your reputation precedes you now. Like Joey Barton you're going to be hard pressed to get rid of it even when you're not acting up.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Cyril wrote:It's just the same old tripe as usual.

Think you need a bit of a rest from this place.

Please clearly express what you believe is the problem with enquiring whether the 6n might be used as a trial ground for RWC selections. Seems very reasonable to me.

Looks to me like you are just pursuing an agenda...the forum equivalent of diving and then miming a yellow card at the ref....

Threatening to glass other posters, posting homophobic 'jokes' and using sexual abuse stories as a point scoring tool seems reasonable to you so I'm not sure that means much.

I've never done any of those things Cyril, and if I had I'm sure it would be an issue for the moderation team and not you. Read the house rules.

You are being libellous and aggressive and suggest you desist, before you find yourself in trouble.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your reputation precedes you now. Like Joey Barton you're going to be hard pressed to get rid of it even when you're not acting up.

Keep on topic please. Read the house rules.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I've never done any of those things Cyril, and if I had I'm sure it would be an issue for the moderation team and not you. Read the house rules.

You are being libellous and aggressive and suggest you desist, before you find yourself in trouble.

You got warned and/or banned (no idea why not permanently) for the above. I'm being neither libellous, nor aggressive.

You question whether teams actually try to win the 6n? Is it a complete competition? Thats belittling and offending.

You suggesting Wales, England, France, Scotland, Ireland dont go in there with the intention of winning it is insulting...regardless of if a WC is on the horizon or not.

Teams may blood the odd new player...but it takes nothing away form their intent!

Not at all GF.

Recently Lancaster has said that he has twenty months and twenty matches before the world cup to finalise his squad.

That suggests that every single game has two purposes for him - the immediate concern of winning and also an eye on the RWC.

He didn't say "discounting the 6N which is obviously a tournament of equal importance to the RWC, I have 10 games in twenty months".

No excuses now. No development, looking to the future etc. The time is now 18 months out from the RWC. Injuries, it doesn't matter come the world cup as each team will have in all probability 3 players from their first choice 23 out. Fringe players need to step up as some of them will be starting in the RWC.

But teams will never not target victory... its just that their excuses will be up.

First year post RWC the 6N is often fresh with new faces, coaches etc. Same with every other annual tournament. But is a competition devalued because of injuries? Can SA not say they are RC champs if they win the title and McCaw say is injured for the championship. You can only play those in front of you. Hardly ever will teams not have players out. Its the modern game.

Yeah, get a room   

Thanks BT. Hopefully now we can discuss the OP.

I'm primarily interested in if any other coaches have Lancaster's mind set to be focussed on the RWC in twenty months.

I realise Lancaster has to trot the line given the injuries that England have at the moment. A quarter of the squad out injured is it? Sometimes through injuries the opportunities given to others prove beneficial - just look at Rhys Priestland's rise to prominance for Wales.

What about Ireland, Wales and France; no offence to Scotland and Italy; the other genuine contenders. Will they go all out to win? or keep an eye on RWC selections?

Six nations is must win every year IMO. It is the most important rugby tournament in the world for me. More important than the world cup in many ways. That said I suppose I would rather Ireland won the world cup but if I was given the choice of abolishing the 6 nations or the world cup I would without question abolish the world cup.

Biltong wrote:Cyril and GE, can both of you please leave the personal stuff out of this and stay on topic.

You have a facility for private messaging each other if you want to get to know each other better.

I guess we'll just need to wait until GE has another pop at SA before you bother taking action, biltong   

GunsGerms wrote:Six nations is must win every year IMO. It is the most important rugby tournament in the world for me. More important than the world cup in many ways. That said I suppose I would rather Ireland won the world cup but if I was given the choice of abolishing the 6 nations or the world cup I would without question abolish the world cup.

Interesting to hear you say that GG! On another thread I saw several posters claiming that the RWC was the be-all now and that teams were only judged on their success in the RWC. Personally I agree with you, and think the RWC is a dichotomy, both flag ship spectacle for increasing the games profile, but also a curse on the game in that it sucks meaning and focus from the more traditional and annual competitions in an unfortunately all-encompassingly cyclic manner.

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:Cyril and GE, can both of you please leave the personal stuff out of this and stay on topic.

You have a facility for private messaging each other if you want to get to know each other better.

I guess we'll just need to wait until GE has another pop at SA before you bother taking action, biltong   

not that I am really interested, but seeing as things are still quiet this time of year, how about you PM me you suggested methodology.

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:Cyril and GE, can both of you please leave the personal stuff out of this and stay on topic.

You have a facility for private messaging each other if you want to get to know each other better.

I guess we'll just need to wait until GE has another pop at SA before you bother taking action, biltong   

not that I am really interested, but seeing as things are still quiet this time of year, how about you PM me you suggested methodology.

Could you explain what is meant by that?

Can we wait to see who wins first before deciding how valued it is?

But you cant escape that the French always win it the year after the Lions. Building for the world cup ...poop. Lancaster certainly has already expressed that he has a set core group of players and the (even more) youngsters are getting their chance due to injuries.
Wales dont really have the capacity for experimenting wildly with youth.
Ireland ..well we can say they are building for the world cup if they have the guts to drop the center combo but they wont.

To be fair the French have been pretty radical in some areas (espec fly half) and their side last year was a mess.


So my answer is if anyone other than France wins it it is devalued because they are rebuilding. If France win its devalued because the rest played in the Lions.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:Cyril and GE, can both of you please leave the personal stuff out of this and stay on topic.

You have a facility for private messaging each other if you want to get to know each other better.

I guess we'll just need to wait until GE has another pop at SA before you bother taking action, biltong   

not that I am really interested, but seeing as things are still quiet this time of year, how about you PM me you suggested methodology.

Could you explain what is meant by that?

Is there a reason we cant call him Gloria BTW?

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:Cyril and GE, can both of you please leave the personal stuff out of this and stay on topic.

You have a facility for private messaging each other if you want to get to know each other better.

I guess we'll just need to wait until GE has another pop at SA before you bother taking action, biltong   

not that I am really interested, but seeing as things are still quiet this time of year, how about you PM me you suggested methodology.

I'll post the current methodology here:

Constant sniping and bile against England/Britain - no action or occasional slap on the wrist
A couple of comments re. SA - immediate clampdown, posts removed and ban

I just wish all the refs interpreted the laws the same.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Can we wait to see who wins first before deciding how valued it is?

But you cant escape that the French always win it the year after the Lions. Building for the world cup ...poop. Lancaster certainly has already expressed that he has a set core group of players and the (even more) youngsters are getting their chance due to injuries.
Wales dont really have the capacity for experimenting wildly with youth.
Ireland ..well we can say they are building for the world cup if they have the guts to drop the center combo but they wont.

To be fair the French have been pretty radical in some areas (espec fly half) and their side last year was a mess.


So my answer is if anyone other than France wins it it is devalued because they are rebuilding. If France win its devalued because the rest played in the Lions.

  

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not at all GF.

Recently Lancaster has said that he has twenty months and twenty matches before the world cup to finalise his squad.

That suggests that every single game has two purposes for him - the immediate concern of winning and also an eye on the RWC.

He didn't say "discounting the 6N which is obviously a tournament of equal importance to the RWC, I have 10 games in twenty months".

Its irrelevant where we are in the WC cycle. Every team will bring new players in as they come through...every team - from the AB's to Singapore in the Asian 5 nations group d or what ever they're in - are constantly trying to improve and develop....that does not deter them from trying to win the title.

Lancaster has always said his target is the WC...do you really think for a second that means they arent going to do all they can to win the 6n...

I expect England to win it this time...as we've been naive in the last couple...certainly against a phenominal Wales team in the last 6n. Hopefully we have developed from there and can clinch the title...

GunsGerms wrote:Six nations is must win every year IMO. It is the most important rugby tournament in the world for me. More important than the world cup in many ways. That said I suppose I would rather Ireland won the world cup but if I was given the choice of abolishing the 6 nations or the world cup I would without question abolish the world cup.

GG - is that because Ireland have far higher chance of winning the 6N then the RWC? Its the same for Scotland. RWC would be great but if I look at it with a best cased scenario of we can get to another SF in any given tournament.... but a 6N title is not off the cards.

From that if I had the choice of a 6N title or a RWC SF I'd probably take the silverware.

But I still see the RWC as the most important myself.... I just don't see us now or in the near future being competitive enough to challenge for the RWC regardless of how many talented generations that come and go....i.e. Scotland in the late 80s and early 90s.... Ireland in the last decade etc etc.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not at all GF.

Recently Lancaster has said that he has twenty months and twenty matches before the world cup to finalise his squad.

That suggests that every single game has two purposes for him - the immediate concern of winning and also an eye on the RWC.

He didn't say "discounting the 6N which is obviously a tournament of equal importance to the RWC, I have 10 games in twenty months".

Its irrelevant where we are in the WC cycle. Every team will bring new players in as they come through...every team - from the AB's to Singapore in the Asian 5 nations group d or what ever they're in - are constantly trying to improve and develop....that does not deter them from trying to win the title.

Lancaster has always said his target is the WC...do you really think for a second that means they arent going to do all they can to win the 6n...

I expect England to win it this time...as we've been naive in the last couple...certainly against a phenominal Wales team in the last 6n. Hopefully we have developed from there and can clinch the title...

Actually Lancaster hasn't always said the RWC is his target! In fact in his early days he said exactly the opposite! A position which I applauded at the time.

Is that Wales' excuse for consistently doing badly in the summer tours and AIs? They are building for the 6 nations?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Six nations is must win every year IMO. It is the most important rugby tournament in the world for me. More important than the world cup in many ways. That said I suppose I would rather Ireland won the world cup but if I was given the choice of abolishing the 6 nations or the world cup I would without question abolish the world cup.

Interesting to hear you say that GG! On another thread I saw several posters claiming that the RWC was the be-all now and that teams were only judged on their success in the RWC. Personally I agree with you, and think the RWC is a dichotomy, both flag ship spectacle for increasing the games profile, but also a curse on the game in that it sucks meaning and focus from the more traditional and annual competitions in an unfortunately all-encompassingly cyclic manner.

I guess I just grew up on the six nations. I have probably watched 90% of Ireland 6N games since I was 8 years old and been to around 40 to 50 six nations matches. Going to three this year. Couldnt live without it and February is my favorite month of the year.

The world cup is awesome but I could live without it. The IRFU originally voted for there not to be a world cup but changed their mind when offered games for the 1991 RWC.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not at all GF.

Recently Lancaster has said that he has twenty months and twenty matches before the world cup to finalise his squad.

That suggests that every single game has two purposes for him - the immediate concern of winning and also an eye on the RWC.

He didn't say "discounting the 6N which is obviously a tournament of equal importance to the RWC, I have 10 games in twenty months".

Its irrelevant where we are in the WC cycle. Every team will bring new players in as they come through...every team - from the AB's to Singapore in the Asian 5 nations group d or what ever they're in - are constantly trying to improve and develop....that does not deter them from trying to win the title.

Lancaster has always said his target is the WC...do you really think for a second that means they arent going to do all they can to win the 6n...

I expect England to win it this time...as we've been naive in the last couple...certainly against a phenominal Wales team in the last 6n. Hopefully we have developed from there and can clinch the title...

Actually Lancaster hasn't always said the RWC is his target!  In fact in his early days he said exactly the opposite! A position which I applauded at the time.

Right his target was making sure he whipped up such a love fest from the press that he had to be given the job permanently

PM for you cyril.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not at all GF.

Recently Lancaster has said that he has twenty months and twenty matches before the world cup to finalise his squad.

That suggests that every single game has two purposes for him - the immediate concern of winning and also an eye on the RWC.

He didn't say "discounting the 6N which is obviously a tournament of equal importance to the RWC, I have 10 games in twenty months".

Its irrelevant where we are in the WC cycle. Every team will bring new players in as they come through...every team - from the AB's to Singapore in the Asian 5 nations group d or what ever they're in - are constantly trying to improve and develop....that does not deter them from trying to win the title.

Lancaster has always said his target is the WC...do you really think for a second that means they arent going to do all they can to win the 6n...

I expect England to win it this time...as we've been naive in the last couple...certainly against a phenominal Wales team in the last 6n. Hopefully we have developed from there and can clinch the title...

Actually Lancaster hasn't always said the RWC is his target!  In fact in his early days he said exactly the opposite! A position which I applauded at the time.

Right his target was making sure he whipped up such a love fest from the press that he had to be given the job permanently

Granted there are inevitable politics, but he also moved the team from the meandering "judge me on my RWC performance" futurism to focussing on results in the short term which seemed to help morale in the camp.

Although to be fair he has gone a bit doctor Evil with his "world domination", and the unfortunately off-base assertion that his England would be "attack oriented"...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/10203043/England-rugby-coach-Stuart-Lancaster-focused-on-attacking-vision-and-world-domination.html