Six Nations : Win at all costs?

First topic message reminder :

A question for you all.

Is the six nations this year genuinely a completion in its own right? By that I mean will all teams be approaching it purely to win?

Wales have a special opportunity to win three back to back. Ahead of the World Cup, there would certainly be benefit psychologically in keeping the foot on England's throats and taking momentum into World Cup year. From England's perspective, this fixture is a key one too to regain the balance of power.

But will coaches be distracted by one eye on developing depth and trying new combinations with the World Cup beginning to loom?

Is this a "devalued" year? Or is it winner takes all for glory?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not at all GF.

Recently Lancaster has said that he has twenty months and twenty matches before the world cup to finalise his squad.

That suggests that every single game has two purposes for him - the immediate concern of winning and also an eye on the RWC.

He didn't say "discounting the 6N which is obviously a tournament of equal importance to the RWC, I have 10 games in twenty months".

Its irrelevant where we are in the WC cycle. Every team will bring new players in as they come through...every team - from the AB's to Singapore in the Asian 5 nations group d or what ever they're in - are constantly trying to improve and develop....that does not deter them from trying to win the title.

Lancaster has always said his target is the WC...do you really think for a second that means they arent going to do all they can to win the 6n...

I expect England to win it this time...as we've been naive in the last couple...certainly against a phenominal Wales team in the last 6n. Hopefully we have developed from there and can clinch the title...

Actually Lancaster hasn't always said the RWC is his target!  In fact in his early days he said exactly the opposite! A position which I applauded at the time.

He expressed several times that it was all geared for an assault on the 2015 WC.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Not at all GF.

Recently Lancaster has said that he has twenty months and twenty matches before the world cup to finalise his squad.

That suggests that every single game has two purposes for him - the immediate concern of winning and also an eye on the RWC.

He didn't say "discounting the 6N which is obviously a tournament of equal importance to the RWC, I have 10 games in twenty months".

Its irrelevant where we are in the WC cycle. Every team will bring new players in as they come through...every team - from the AB's to Singapore in the Asian 5 nations group d or what ever they're in - are constantly trying to improve and develop....that does not deter them from trying to win the title.

Lancaster has always said his target is the WC...do you really think for a second that means they arent going to do all they can to win the 6n...

I expect England to win it this time...as we've been naive in the last couple...certainly against a phenominal Wales team in the last 6n. Hopefully we have developed from there and can clinch the title...

Actually Lancaster hasn't always said the RWC is his target!  In fact in his early days he said exactly the opposite! A position which I applauded at the time.

He expressed several times that it was all geared for an assault on the 2015 WC.

Undeniably, of recent, yes. His current line was that being a top 2 side is the "target" however. However he refuted the logic in the "judge me on the RWC" catch cry of recent coaches. (probably wisely as most of those have transpired)

Lancaster to his credit has not taken the easy route.

He could have played guys like Armitage, Easter, Sheridan and even brought back in JW to improve his win ratio and perhaps even add to his trophy cabinet... and surely he would have done with those 4.

But he's stuck with previously (and arguably currently) lesser players with the gamble that they will be the top guys in 18 months time.

I agree with FA, I think Lancaster (even though he may not be around then) has started the foundation for what should be a strong and experienced RWC team for japan.

They might not be ready for the RWC in England, but they will be a great team by 2019

That is what I hoped Meyer would do, but it seems he has other plans.

fa0019 wrote:Lancaster to his credit has not taken the easy route.

He could have played guys like Armitage, Easter, Sheridan and even brought back in JW to improve his win ratio and perhaps even add to his trophy cabinet... and surely he would have done with those 4.

But he's stuck with previously (and arguably currently) lesser players with the gamble that they will be the top guys in 18 months time.

Yeah, you'd be on your 3rd grandslam by now   

Don't care what Stewie said/says about the RWC - he most certainly will be judged by it.

I know the development issue is important but I can never understand why any coach would go into ANY competition without the aim of winning it or winning as many games as possible.

Conflicting interests. Sometimes you need to try a George ford to see if he is capable of performing as you want on the international stage...and to give them chances to gain international experience and get over their teething issues/build combinations.

Painful in the short run - beneficial in the long.

It's not a matter of going out to lose, but sacrificing something now (possibly) ie taking risk for later benefits.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Conflicting interests. Sometimes you need to try a George ford to see if he is capable of performing as you want on the international stage...and to give them chances to gain international experience and get over their teething issues/build combinations.

Painful in the short run - beneficial in the long.

It's not a matter of going out to lose, but sacrificing something now (possibly) ie taking risk for later benefits.

GE,

I do see the point, even more so for us Welsh as we haven't got an A/Saxons side to get an early look at them and I guess its always a juggling act against the so called 'lesser' sides but we have come unstuck more often than not when we have tried it.

Absolutely GE...development is essential...but even trying someone like Ford...isnt going to take away from the intention of winning the title.

George Ford is an interesting one.

In the juniors he was standout. so standout he entered the U20 championship aged 18 and won world player of the year.... and shined against fellow flyhalves in Johan Goosen and Gareth Anscombe.... who both have had more notable success in pro rugby since.

Don't see enough of him to know how he's developed bar the odd cameo here and there.

I really hate the mass changes we see in some games be it the 6 Nations or AIs as it then doesn't give players a fair crack in my opinion.

For few seasons now (until last season) we had players like Nicky Robinson, Biggar, Brew and Delve thrown in to our Friday night AI amid 6 or 7 other changes and for me all players suffer then.

I agree that if you play some like Ford against any team so see how he goes then do it in a controlled environment so to speak and surround him with a bit of experience rather than throw him to the wolves.

His kicking percentage is a little worrying for tight international games

FA...he's playing fantastic stuff for Bath this season..hence the clamour for his inclusion...likewise Cipirani's..."new found " maturity...though ill not hold my breath on that one...

Ford is worth a look..

How old is Cips btw?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Your reputation precedes you now. Like Joey Barton you're going to be hard pressed to get rid of it even when you're not acting up.

Keep on topic please. Read the house rules.

Just trying to help you understand why people may take a view that you may not like. Keep wumming enough and people assume you're wumming all the time.

I would rather say that we are back to back 6 nations winners than semi finalists of the World Cup, however if we won the World Cup, then saying we are the world champions is going to sound heaps better than being 6 nations winners.
I don't buy into any competition being devalued, simply because we have to play what's in front of us, although winning a competition with a 'development' side means we exceeded our expectations. That's gotta be good, right?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Absolutely GE...development is essential...but even trying someone like Ford...isnt going to take away from the intention of winning the title.

It might not take away from the intention - but it might take away from the actual ability to actually win. Hence why I called the thread "win at all costs?".

Would you want your coach to win the 6Ns but fail to develop depth that may be crucial in 2015?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Absolutely GE...development is essential...but even trying someone like Ford...isnt going to take away from the intention of winning the title.

It might not take away from the intention - but it might take away from the actual ability to actually win. Hence why I called the thread "win at all costs?".

Would you want your coach to win the 6Ns but fail to develop depth that may be crucial in 2015?

Again I cant dis-agree but winning breeds confidence and confidence breeds success etc, in the run up to England winning the WC in 03 how much development did SCW do, ok after the WC they suffered from lack of development but his goal was the WC and he ultimately achieved that goal.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Absolutely GE...development is essential...but even trying someone like Ford...isnt going to take away from the intention of winning the title.

It might not take away from the intention - but it might take away from the actual ability to actually win. Hence why I called the thread "win at all costs?".

Would you want your coach to win the 6Ns but fail to develop depth that may be crucial in 2015?

But surely a legitimate coach should be able to develop a team whilst also keeping it competitive in tournaments like the 6n.

They may be "developing" players...but noone should be getting capped in the 6n if they arent playing to a certain level in the AP, or HC. Bringing in a player like Ford for example shouldnt be weakening the team ability wise...experience wise it will be weaker yes...but other senior players like Dan Cole, Robshaw, Hartley, Barrit, Wood etc should aid with that.

A developing team should not mean a massively weakended or less competitive team.

GF,

Yeah I guess thats the juggling act so to speak, don't do mass changes but introduce players graually into an already experienced/settled side.

GE

In the NH IMO the 6ns is their RWC every player/ every team, every coach wants to win the 6ns.

There is no half hearted measures here. it is like a war between the country's even if some of the players from one country who play their rugby in another there is no love lost.

Apart from injuries which cannot be helped every country will put out their best players in the hope that they will win. No devalued 6ns. none

bedfordwelsh wrote:GF,

Yeah I guess thats the juggling act so to speak, don't do mass changes but introduce players graually into an already experienced/settled side.

Much as i hate to say it, as it'll inflate GE's head even more...but NZ have been doing it for the last 100 years hence their dominance....

A lot depends on how mature the whole elite player development process is for a given union. If you have an established set of playing patterns and a well-managed pipeline of new players who can slot into those patterns because they've been raised on them, then your focus can always be on winning the next game.

I'd argue that only the ABs are in that space right now. SA are probably next closest but there seems to be more dissent among fans about style of coaching and play which I take as a sign that it's not as settled.

Right now, everyone else will always have one eye on balancing player and squad development against wanting to win.

Lancaster's challenge now is threefold. He had to start pretty much from scratch after RWC 11 with a very inexperienced bunch of players and a broken culture. He's fixed that but is still light on experience even in his core squad. So problem two is to give enough players enough experience that he has a reasonably seasoned squad for RWC 15. Third problem (which partly counteracts the first two) is that he's had so many injuries in his centres that he hasn't really had the consistency to develop a smooth-running system.

He's also got one eye on 2019 already, and trying to make sure that he has a much more settled squad to take him through to that once 2015 is over.

Ireland have some impressive youngsters coming through, but need to commit to them sooner rather than later, even if it means a tough 6N.

For Wales, I do think they go all out to win every game, but with a flawed game plan and too much dependence on the right players being fit at the right time. They should have one eye on developing depth and flexibility, but I doubt they will.

I think Scotland would be happy just to nick a win over someone other than Italy, and vice versa.

I strongly doubt that anyone, including the coach and players, could tell you to what extent France are focused on winning the tournament as opposed to the next RWC, the state of the Common Agricultural Policy, whether this year's vintage will be a patch on 2005 and whether they can sneak a crafty Gauloise behind the team bus before going home.

quinsforever wrote:absolutely no chance wales wins it. for once there will be a big scalp for all the teams to beat wales. no more sneaking under the radar after puking the first game against ireland. best bet against i have seen in several years to lay wales.

nobody thinks about rwc in 6N matches. tis the auld rivalries that resurface. plus some new score which need settling...ire vs wales

 
 
Bookmarking this for March 17th... I know the result will be known by 7pm on Sat 15th, but I have to schedule some recovery time after celebrating our 4th Grand Slam within 10 years  

No9 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:absolutely no chance wales wins it. for once there will be a big scalp for all the teams to beat wales. no more sneaking under the radar after puking the first game against ireland. best bet against i have seen in several years to lay wales.

nobody thinks about rwc in 6N matches. tis the auld rivalries that resurface. plus some new score which need settling...ire vs wales

 
 
Bookmarking this for March 17th... I know the result will be known by 7pm on Sat 15th, but I have to schedule some recovery time after celebrating our 4th Grand Slam within 10 years  

Punctuation aside, it is the most glaring thing about his little rant...

munkian wrote:

No9 wrote:

quinsforever wrote:absolutely no chance wales wins it. for once there will be a big scalp for all the teams to beat wales. no more sneaking under the radar after puking the first game against ireland. best bet against i have seen in several years to lay wales.

nobody thinks about rwc in 6N matches. tis the auld rivalries that resurface. plus some new score which need settling...ire vs wales

 
 
Bookmarking this for March 17th... I know the result will be known by 7pm on Sat 15th, but I have to schedule some recovery time after celebrating our 4th Grand Slam within 10 years  

Punctuation aside, it is the most glaring thing about his little rant...

I absolutely disagree that Wales have no chance. Quiyte possibly favorites. However I can understand the "under the radar" part if it relates to Wales form leading up to 6N last year, and even the start of it. 7 or 8 losses on the bounce and their first two games were pretty poor.
After that - pretty bloody good.

As the tournament went on we got better and England stagnated. WE scored 9 tries that tournament (3 in our 'puking' against Ireland) whilst England got 5 - 4 of which were against Scotland

LOL. you boys are so sensitive.

i reckon wales at best get 2 wins this year in the 6N.

and France, Ireland and England pick up 4 wins each. Ireland take the title on points difference.

And this is based on....

england, at least as strong as last year and getting better all the time, in spite of Tuilagi missing. would love to see Burrell start for example. HQ game vs Wales in rwc2015-rehearsal will not see England caught napping again.

france, everyone knows they do well after a Lions year.

Ireland, NZ near-miss will give them huge self-belief, plus they are going to open a can of whupass on Wales in ireland as payback for several things.

wales, there are several examples where wales has gone from 6N winner to wooden spoon within 1 or 2 seasons.

quinsforever wrote:england, at least as strong as last year and getting better all the time, in spite of Tuilagi missing. would love to see Burrell start for example. HQ game vs Wales in rwc2015-rehearsal will not see England caught napping again.

france, everyone knows they do well after a Lions year.

Ireland, NZ near-miss will give them huge self-belief, plus they are going to open a can of whupass on Wales in ireland as payback for several things.

wales, there are several examples where wales has gone from 6N winner to wooden spoon within 1 or 2 seasons.

Glad to see there's science to this prediction...   

I'm concerned about the French game, as its another b!oody Friday night encounter which we don't do well in... Also, why is only us (Wales) who have to pander to the French love of Friday night games... Let someone else have them. I recollect the WRU saying they where an experiment and they would not be repeating them... so why do we still have them.

$$$

quinsforever wrote:LOL. you boys are so sensitive.

i reckon wales at best get 2 wins this year in the 6N.

and France, Ireland and England pick up 4 wins each. Ireland take the title on points difference.

you don't 'reckon' quoins….you hope, you pray and you get wood for Wales not winning more than 2.

Reckon is based on reason and such a prospect, based on form and stats, is illogical.

England beat the All Blacks then assumed they would coast through the 6 nations and came spectaculalry undone at the end

They put in a good shift agaisnt NZ last year, are you so certain they will learn from this during the 2014 6ns ?

quinsforever wrote:england, at least as strong as last year and getting better all the time, in spite of Tuilagi missing. would love to see Burrell start for example. HQ game vs Wales in rwc2015-rehearsal will not see England caught napping again.

france, everyone knows they do well after a Lions year.

Ireland, NZ near-miss will give them huge self-belief, plus they are going to open a can of whupass on Wales in ireland as payback for several things.

wales, there are several examples where wales has gone from 6N winner to wooden spoon within 1 or 2 seasons.

Wales are stuffed.

Quins you are quite wrong….when have wales gone from champ to spoon in 1/2 seasons?

As for England being at least as strong as last year….sounds good, we shouldn't beat you guys by more than 27 points this time then.

There are also plenty of examples where England haven't won a Grand slam since 2003 and choked winning the tournament.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:GF,

Yeah I guess thats the juggling act so to speak, don't do mass changes but introduce players graually into an already experienced/settled side.

Much as i hate to say it, as it'll inflate GE's head even more...but NZ have been doing it for the last 100 years hence their dominance....

Except I don't think that is the case GF. There are plenty of times when the ABs have stuck with their experienced players and then come unstuck during mass retirements, or when key senior players have departed.

Look at the "baby blacks" prior to the 1987 RWC for example - where the ABs fielded a team against France where all but two AB's were on debut (or something along those lines...). In fact leading in to 1987 nobody gave the ABs a hope having lost their captain prior to the tournament.  Following the establishment of the great 1987 team, their RWC victory and long sequence of success there was another down period around 1991 RWC where the ABs were a bit long in the tooth but reticent to blood new talent appropriately.

Again NZ struggled for leadership after Sean Fitzpatrick retired, or the tiresome "bring back buck" years.

Probably the 2003 loss can be partially attributed to the slow introduction of DC, who was in the stands watching Sterling Mortlock rip apart Leon MacDonald in mid-field.

I think NZ's current policy of introducing new talent continuously was born from those lessons learned, but the pendulum swung too far in 2007 around the fateful "two AB teams" saga, where again NZ went out of the RWC with a handful of first team choices in the stands as Sir Graham Henry wrongly believed that a partially rotated squad would comfortably see off a full strength France in the knock out match allowing him to rest some big guns for the semi-final.

It was probably reaction to that situation that precipitated the fly half crisis of 2011 and nearly caused problems when the experience of guys like Mils Muliaina were persevered with almost disasterously too long when it was clear that the Israel Daggs, despite being green had a much needed X-Factor.  Luckily it all worked out, but I think probably squad management and the appropriate injection and promotion/trial of young rising stars is maybe the most important challenge in the professional era when the rugby calendar is so full.

Steve Hansen seems to have it just about right - as we saw the AB's manage to eek out their all-win year last year with some novices bringing home the bacon against Ireland - Ryan Crotty to save the day anyone? a lesson learned just a year earlier when the knackered Blacks were taken apart by England in the final game of the exhaustingly long season jam packed with "must win" matches.

I think England have a good shout but looking at there Six Nations squad, not as sure as i was with them. Not enough depth with injuries
Ireland look like they can do well, with Schmidt at the helm i think they can do anything and everything to win. Good luck to them, i'm sure we will have a fight on our hands at the Aviva anyway; will be our biggest challenge.

Scratch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:england, at least as strong as last year and getting better all the time, in spite of Tuilagi missing. would love to see Burrell start for example. HQ game vs Wales in rwc2015-rehearsal will not see England caught napping again.

france, everyone knows they do well after a Lions year.

Ireland, NZ near-miss will give them huge self-belief, plus they are going to open a can of whupass on Wales in ireland as payback for several things.

wales, there are several examples where wales has gone from 6N winner to wooden spoon within 1 or 2 seasons.

Wales are stuffed.

Quins you are quite wrong….when have wales gone from champ to spoon in 1/2 seasons?

As for England being at least as strong as last year….sounds good, we shouldn't beat you guys by more than 27 points this time then.

since you asked:
88 Winners
89 Wooden Spoon
93-94 Winners
94-95 Wooden Spoon
04-05 Winners
05-06 5th out of 6
07-08 winners
08-09 4th out of 6.

munkian wrote:There are also plenty of examples where England haven't won a Grand slam since 2003 and choked winning the tournament.

of course. but they don't go up and down like a yoyo. must be hell to be a wales rugby fan since the 80s. glimmers of brilliance followed by disaster the following year. england pretty much always win 3 or 4 matches since 1990, but very rarely do the slam.

quinsforever wrote:

Scratch wrote:

quinsforever wrote:england, at least as strong as last year and getting better all the time, in spite of Tuilagi missing. would love to see Burrell start for example. HQ game vs Wales in rwc2015-rehearsal will not see England caught napping again.

france, everyone knows they do well after a Lions year.

Ireland, NZ near-miss will give them huge self-belief, plus they are going to open a can of whupass on Wales in ireland as payback for several things.

wales, there are several examples where wales has gone from 6N winner to wooden spoon within 1 or 2 seasons.

Wales are stuffed.

Quins you are quite wrong….when have wales gone from champ to spoon in 1/2 seasons?

As for England being at least as strong as last year….sounds good, we shouldn't beat you guys by more than 27 points this time then.

since you asked:
88 Winners
89 Wooden Spoon
93-94 Winners
94-95 Wooden Spoon
04-05 Winners
05-06 5th out of 6
07-08 winners
08-09 4th out of 6.

You can't seriously be suggesting what happened in the 5 Nations is relevant in anyway

And in relation to the 6 Nations that has never happened, you said champ to spoon quoins not 4th or 5th.

What would be most interesting is to see how many times England came 2nd, a fact many English fans use to suggest consistent performance, when in truth it indicates yet another opportunity lost when England choked on the Grand Slam hype and were last game losers.

why would the 5N not be relevant? has the addition of italy really changed that much about finishing order apart from padding the wooden spoon slot most years?

don't be a pedant.

04-05 grandslam!
05-06 5th out of 6, including a draw with italy
06-07 5th out of 6, avoiding bottom spot on points difference, including a loss to italy
07-08 grandslam!

is this a basis for predicting 3 in a row, or, instead, more empirical evidence in favour of a fall from grace?

everyone can see what they want from statistics, but wales are by no means a dominant force in rugby, yet in vocally targeting 3 in a row (most recently after getting dominated by Australia) they have placed a comic-book target on their foreheads, and i don't think everyone is going to miss.

Good god....

If you are going back to 5 Nations, why stop at 80s, go back to 60s and the stats will turn round...

Heres the game stats (for 6 Nations only) since England's last Grand Slam in 2003. Taking game wins/loss into it, you'll see there's nothing between England and Wales, so hardly a rollercoaster ride as you suggest.

WALES
Summary Home Away Neutral Played
Total 55 100.0% 27 49.1% 28 50.9% 0 -
Wins 31 56.4% 17 63.0% 14 50.0% 0 -
Losses 23 41.8% 9 33.3% 14 50.0% 0 -
Draws 1 1.8% 1 3.7% 0 - 0 -

ENGLAND
Summary Home Away Neutral Played
Total 55 100.0% 28 50.9% 27 49.1% 0 -
Wins 35 63.6% 22 78.6% 13 48.1% 0 -
Losses 19 34.5% 6 21.4% 13 48.1% 0 -
Draws 1 1.8% 0 - 1 3.7% 0 -

calm down fella. i was asked to back up my reasoning which i did. not expecting anyone welsh to agree.

the first rwc was in 1987 so thats pretty much my baseline for patterns. as that was the beginning of the unions pushing the game into professionalism once they realised how much money they could milk out of a successful rwc, especially hosted in europe.

Unbelievable how childish people are on here. They ruin the whole thread for others

Well said though No9, hopefully that will shut both of them up (i highly doubt it though)

talking of childish. the fact that my baseline for useful rugby statistics predates the birth of several vocal posters is i think an example of what is called having the long view?

perspective, in rugby as in life, is a useful commodity.

JHamer seriously grow up

This is a debate forum, quoins and i are having a lively debate that is all, there are no issues.

Quins, putting aside your disrespect for italian rugby, on th done hand you dismiss stats yet on the other you refer to the position in the table in relation to Italy as basis for your argument. You can't have it both ways.

Additionally you first assertion that Wales have gone from Slam to Spoon in 1/2 seasons in the 6 Nations is simply wrong and if you think that winning 3 slams in 8 years and then dropping down the next year or two is indicative of anything then you must also consider that while we have dropped off between Slams we have also returned to superiority within a season or two…Slam 05 dropped off and then Slammed 08, dropped off and then Slammed 2012.

England have absolutely no basis to be confident this year, yes their pack is solid but frankly behind the scrum there is nothing but uncertainty and confusion. Not a single shirt but 10 and poss 15 picks itself right now. Without Tuilagi your midfield is very average.

Seems to me the only one pinning a comedy target on anything is you on your forehead,

quinsforever wrote:talking of childish. the fact that my baseline for useful rugby statistics predates the birth of several vocal posters is i think an example of what is called having the long view?

perspective, in rugby as in life, is a useful commodity.

 
FACT ? is this fact based on the same principals that Wales are on a rollercoaster ride as you state, and England are consistent so are the better side...  
 
Here's a FACT for you. I'm old enough to have watched the 70s Welsh team and have some childhood memories of the 60s team. So your "fact" on ages is as watertight as your fact on Welsh performances...
 
Now, I used 2003 as a baseline as I thought I'd give England a chance in the stats, by using the last Grand Slam won by them. I ignored RWC, as this debate was about 6 Nations. But has it happens 2003 was England's dream season, as wining a Slam and RWC cant get better. However, there are few players still playing in the England XV now who where there in 2003, so perhaps a more useful baseline would have been 2008. But guess what, Wales would have won those stats with no question, skewing the results the other way. So in fairness I used 2003, which I believe show the 6 Nations Wins/Losses in a true reflection for the last 12 years... ie. There's nothing between them..
 

(Genuine English fans, my apologies... I reckon England could do well this year, but I don't think it is anyone nations trophy outright, its going to come down to points difference again, which is not where Wales do well, last year being the exception.)

i haven't made any claims about england on this thread Scratch. you and someone else asked my why i thought wales would come 4th with 2 wins in this year's 6Ns. i clearly illustrated that with wales it tends to be all or nothing, hence why you think they will win and i think they will get no more than 2 wins. hardly controversial. just two differing views of the same coin.