Sean O'Brien - the best no.7 in the world?

First topic message reminder :

Serious question, SOB has been in incredible form recently and seems unstoppable!
His ball carrying is without doubt better than any other back rower in the world.
He has diversified his game now and is able to read attacking and defensive situations better.
His work at the breakdown is now a big part of his game.If you think this is still a weakness you haven't watched him this season!
So I pose the question to you, is he the complete out and out best no.7 or even back rower in the world?
If not, who is better?
May I remind you he played McCaw off the park in the Aviva!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZtgohRij5k
A 5 tribute of him, from just 1 game!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDTmdDhGO50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aN75j0BiIX0
Hand off!

quinsforever wrote:another thing. toulon obviously don't rate SOB as highly as you do if they weren't willing to pay up for him. armitage is on north of EUR400k net (the club pays his tax, so that's the equivalent of EUR700k gross).

SOB wasn't going.  SOB wasn't going, quins.  Don't you get that yet?  He doesn't have a money obsession obviously.  He's paid handsomely, he's not broke, he can afford a SKY subscription , he can have nice holiers...he ain't starving.  For some, that's enough.  Comfort.  Enough to be content with.

What were Toulon expected to do?  Keep going up and up to the magic million mark for a guy who couldn't lace Armitage's boots, according to you?  They offered him enough to make it more than the offer on the IRFU table.  But I'm sure IRFU went up enough to satisfy SOB less than greedy personality.  And yet because Toulon didn't keep going up towards the million for a guy who wasn't inclined to go anyway, that proves they didn't rate him?   

I don't know, quins.  I'm having trouble with the logic in that one.

ERC European Player of the Year 2014 longlist
Steffon Armitage (Toulon)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Sean Cronin (Leinster Rugby)
Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse)
Matt Giteau (Toulon)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Cian Healy (Leinster Rugby)
Fritz Lee (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
George North (Northampton Saints)
Paul O'Connell (Munster Rugby)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster Rugby)
Louis Picamoles (Toulouse)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster Rugby)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)

quinsforever wrote:ERC European Player of the Year 2014 longlist
Steffon Armitage (Toulon)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Sean Cronin (Leinster Rugby)
Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse)
Matt Giteau (Toulon)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Cian Healy (Leinster Rugby)
Fritz Lee (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
George North (Northampton Saints)
Paul O'Connell (Munster Rugby)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster Rugby)
Louis Picamoles (Toulouse)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster Rugby)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)

Do you see the difficulty with using that list as an objective indicator of top level quality?

SecretFly wrote:

quinsforever wrote:another thing. toulon obviously don't rate SOB as highly as you do if they weren't willing to pay up for him. armitage is on north of EUR400k net (the club pays his tax, so that's the equivalent of EUR700k gross).

SOB wasn't going.  SOB wasn't going, quins.  Don't you get that yet?  He doesn't have a money obsession obviously.  He's paid handsomely, he's not broke, he can afford a SKY subscription , he can have nice holiers...he ain't starving.  For some, that's enough.  Comfort.  Enough to be content with.

What were Toulon expected to do?  Keep going up and up to the magic million mark for a guy who could lace Armitage's boots?  They offered him enough to make it more than the offer on the IRFU table.  But I'm sure IRFU went up enough to satisfy SOB less than greedy personality.  And yet because Toulon didn't keep going up towards the million for a guy who wasn't inclined to go anyway, that proves they didn't rate him?   

I don't know, quins.  I'm having trouble with the logic in that one.

and yet he went to watch toulon v cardiff this weekend as a guest of toulon? so if he was never going then he's a disingenuous weasel trying to push the irfu bid higher? cant have it both ways.

what take a crocked SOB when you have a bulletproof armitage? for boudjellal it's about return on investment.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ERC European Player of the Year 2014 longlist
Steffon Armitage (Toulon)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Sean Cronin (Leinster Rugby)
Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse)
Matt Giteau (Toulon)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Cian Healy (Leinster Rugby)
Fritz Lee (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
George North (Northampton Saints)
Paul O'Connell (Munster Rugby)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster Rugby)
Louis Picamoles (Toulouse)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster Rugby)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)

Do you see the difficulty with using that list as an objective indicator of top level quality?

other than the fact i think ERC are the devil, no.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ERC European Player of the Year 2014 longlist
Steffon Armitage (Toulon)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Sean Cronin (Leinster Rugby)
Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse)
Matt Giteau (Toulon)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Cian Healy (Leinster Rugby)
Fritz Lee (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
George North (Northampton Saints)
Paul O'Connell (Munster Rugby)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster Rugby)
Louis Picamoles (Toulouse)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster Rugby)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)

Do you see the difficulty with using that list as an objective indicator of top level quality?

Well it's seven games short (the hardest ones) of the target date for a start.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

quinsforever wrote:one more thing. SOB's injury profile suggests either weak body or weak mind. neither bolster the "best 7 in the world" claim.

  

I think this comment suggests a weak mind more than anything..

ah rory, if you miss the subtleties implicit in a post, it's awkward to then display it so clearly to all and sundry.

for your benefit, "weak mind" = poor decision making. that leads to injuries being received. Moody = guilty. McCaw = not guilty.

SecretFly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ERC European Player of the Year 2014 longlist
Steffon Armitage (Toulon)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Sean Cronin (Leinster Rugby)
Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse)
Matt Giteau (Toulon)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Cian Healy (Leinster Rugby)
Fritz Lee (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
George North (Northampton Saints)
Paul O'Connell (Munster Rugby)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster Rugby)
Louis Picamoles (Toulouse)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster Rugby)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)

Do you see the difficulty with using that list as an objective indicator of top level quality?

Well it's seven games short (the hardest ones) of the target date for a start.

so was SOB injured for these games too?    

SecretFly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ERC European Player of the Year 2014 longlist
Steffon Armitage (Toulon)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Sean Cronin (Leinster Rugby)
Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse)
Matt Giteau (Toulon)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Cian Healy (Leinster Rugby)
Fritz Lee (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
George North (Northampton Saints)
Paul O'Connell (Munster Rugby)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster Rugby)
Louis Picamoles (Toulouse)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster Rugby)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)

Do you see the difficulty with using that list as an objective indicator of top level quality?

Well it's seven games short (the hardest ones) of the target date for a start.

That is true. I don't want to be more explicit as I will inevitably upset certain posters and that is not my style. SOB and Armitage are both good players, but I'd say SOB was more important to Leinster than Armitage to Toulon and Armitage gets an easier ride at Toulon than SOB at Leinster. SOB being the best 7 in the world is not a view I agree with but it is one that can be backed up and doesn't deserve to be ridiculed. Neither does the view that one of many other flankers is better

quinsforever wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

quinsforever wrote:one more thing. SOB's injury profile suggests either weak body or weak mind. neither bolster the "best 7 in the world" claim.

  

I think this comment suggests a weak mind more than anything..

ah rory, if you miss the subtleties implicit in a post, it's awkward to then display it so clearly to all and sundry.

for your benefit, "weak mind" = poor decision making. that leads to injuries being received. Moody = guilty. McCaw = not guilty.

#

You could argue that taking risks that could result in injury is sometimes part of a flanker's role

quinsforever wrote:
and yet he went to watch toulon v cardiff this weekend as a guest of toulon? so if he was never going then he's a disingenuous weasel trying to push the irfu bid higher? cant have it both ways.

what take a crocked SOB when you have a bulletproof armitage? for boudjellal it's about return on investment.

He's a professional player with an agent.  You never heard of the "I'm going, I'm going, I'm going!!! I'm walking out the door and not coming back!!!" apporach to negotiating?  It has a long, long, long history, quins.  And I'm disappointed you're not up to date on it - the PRL have been using the same tactic now for the guts of an entire year.  "We going... we're going!  We're warning you, we're out the door!!!"

We're still debating both that 'going' and that 'door' because even now, nobody is quite sure they've actually gone yet  Old negotiating trick from way way back.

CJ, no chance of you upsetting me. we have broken bread together. say what you like.

quinsforever wrote:CJ, no chance of you upsetting me. we have broken bread together. say what you like.

It wouldn't be you it was at risk of upsetting

ChequeredJersey wrote:



That is true. I don't want to be more explicit as I will inevitably upset certain posters and that is not my style.

But I think I'm pretty clear on the reasons you mean as to why it might be considered a bum list.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

quinsforever wrote:one more thing. SOB's injury profile suggests either weak body or weak mind. neither bolster the "best 7 in the world" claim.

  

I think this comment suggests a weak mind more than anything..

ah rory, if you miss the subtleties implicit in a post, it's awkward to then display it so clearly to all and sundry.

for your benefit, "weak mind" = poor decision making. that leads to injuries being received. Moody = guilty. McCaw = not guilty.

#

You could argue that taking risks that could result in injury is sometimes part of a flanker's role

robshaw doesnt do this. and to be clear i am not a massive fan of robshaw. but he is consistency personified. greatest 7 (or any position) is not a shapshot, as anyone can have a great game.

SecretFly wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:



That is true. I don't want to be more explicit as I will inevitably upset certain posters and that is not my style.

But I think I'm pretty clear on the reasons you mean as to why it might be considered a bum list.

PM me if you like, but it's nothing directly to do with my team or with any dispute between leagues!

quinsforever wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

quinsforever wrote:one more thing. SOB's injury profile suggests either weak body or weak mind. neither bolster the "best 7 in the world" claim.

  

I think this comment suggests a weak mind more than anything..

ah rory, if you miss the subtleties implicit in a post, it's awkward to then display it so clearly to all and sundry.

for your benefit, "weak mind" = poor decision making. that leads to injuries being received. Moody = guilty. McCaw = not guilty.

 

Sure.  

quinsforever wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ERC European Player of the Year 2014 longlist
Steffon Armitage (Toulon)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Sean Cronin (Leinster Rugby)
Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse)
Matt Giteau (Toulon)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Cian Healy (Leinster Rugby)
Fritz Lee (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
George North (Northampton Saints)
Paul O'Connell (Munster Rugby)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster Rugby)
Louis Picamoles (Toulouse)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster Rugby)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)

Do you see the difficulty with using that list as an objective indicator of top level quality?

other than the fact i think ERC are the devil, no.

Once again a terrible attempt at a point "Quinsforever" yeaaaaa. For starters peter o'mahony is on that list.
Secondly if you want to go by the erc stats, O'brien has gotten erc player of the year , has fatmitage ? Sorry armitage ?

quinsforever wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

quinsforever wrote:one more thing. SOB's injury profile suggests either weak body or weak mind. neither bolster the "best 7 in the world" claim.

  

I think this comment suggests a weak mind more than anything..

ah rory, if you miss the subtleties implicit in a post, it's awkward to then display it so clearly to all and sundry.

for your benefit, "weak mind" = poor decision making. that leads to injuries being received. Moody = guilty. McCaw = not guilty.

#

You could argue that taking risks that could result in injury is sometimes part of a flanker's role

robshaw doesnt do this. and to be clear i am not a massive fan of robshaw. but he is consistency personified. greatest 7 (or any position) is not a shapshot, as anyone can have a great game.

Ah but Robshaw is omnipresent and therefore a force of nature or minor deity, it is unjust to judge others by his standards

Let's just say a BT Champions Cup list would I guess look different....but also, would be no less biased, no less politically motivated, no less propaganda driven. Most lists are always dubious for all those reasons.

SecretFly wrote:Let's just say a BT Champions Cup list would I guess look different....but also, would be no less biased, no less politically motivated, no less propaganda driven.  Most lists are always dubious for all those reasons.

That wasn't my issue, PredictorofTeams was far closer!

PredictorofTeams wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

quinsforever wrote:ERC European Player of the Year 2014 longlist
Steffon Armitage (Toulon)
Miles Benjamin (Leicester Tigers)
Sean Cronin (Leinster Rugby)
Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse)
Matt Giteau (Toulon)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Cian Healy (Leinster Rugby)
Fritz Lee (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
George North (Northampton Saints)
Paul O'Connell (Munster Rugby)
Peter O'Mahony (Munster Rugby)
Louis Picamoles (Toulouse)
Ruan Pienaar (Ulster Rugby)
Sitiveni Sivivatu (ASM Clermont Auvergne)
Jonny Wilkinson (Toulon)

Do you see the difficulty with using that list as an objective indicator of top level quality?

other than the fact i think ERC are the devil, no.

Once again a terrible attempt at a point "Quinsforever" yeaaaaa. For starters peter o'mahony is on that list.
Secondly if you want to go by the erc stats, O'brien has gotten of erc player of the year , has fatmitage ? Sorry armitage ?

so what happened this year to SOB? because your point is current not historical, no?

or are you just an Ireland fanboy who doesnt follow other club leagues?

how did you get on with the french article? google translate is a pig, right?

ChequeredJersey wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Let's just say a BT Champions Cup list would I guess look different....but also, would be no less biased, no less politically motivated, no less propaganda driven.  Most lists are always dubious for all those reasons.

That wasn't my issue, PredictorofTeams was far closer!

So it's a multi level bum list? Go on private me the real reason...I'm man enough to take it The voting panel?

quinsforever wrote:with your superior mind i am sure you will have no problem reading this article. not a bad accolade, best foreign player in the top14.

http://www.laprovence.com/actu/region-en-direct/2064129/rugby-rct-steffon-armitage-designe-meilleur-joueur-etranger-pour-2011-2012.html

and steffon armitage is stronger, faster and a better gain-line ball carrier than SOB. you're welcome.

So remind us again why Steffon could never be a regular in the England team before moving to France?

Great at club level and international level is two different things.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

quinsforever wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

quinsforever wrote:one more thing. SOB's injury profile suggests either weak body or weak mind. neither bolster the "best 7 in the world" claim.

  

I think this comment suggests a weak mind more than anything..

ah rory, if you miss the subtleties implicit in a post, it's awkward to then display it so clearly to all and sundry.

for your benefit, "weak mind" = poor decision making. that leads to injuries being received. Moody = guilty. McCaw = not guilty.

 

Sure.  

When my brother tore his ACL playing rugby i should have reminded him it was his weak mind at work. He always was a simpleton my brother.

Lads, Quins is on the windup, he's been wumming all over the shop this week and we have been falling for it. Though this Stefan Armitage thing is a hard one to call whether its a wum or not. I mean Stefan Armitage, some bloody player right? I wake up in fright at even the idea of him playing against a team I support. I mean there are greats of the game, and then there is Stefan Armitage. He has us there lads.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Great at club level and international level is two different things.

You are absolutely correct

wolfball wrote:Lads, Quins is on the windup, he's been wumming all over the shop this week and we have been falling for it. Though this Stefan Armitage thing is a hard one to call whether its a wum or not. I mean Stefan Armitage, some bloody player right? I wake up in fright at even the idea of him playing against a team I support. I mean there are greats of the game, and then there is Stefan Armitage. He has us there lads.

 I'm shocked to see there is someone who thinks he is even in the same league as SOB. Thats not to say he isn't a good player though. his performances for Toulon have been great and he is a fan favorite there and is defeinatly someone to look out fr in the qf but SOB is of course level or 2 above which is certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

Ah it's just the p-iss out your territory season, in readiness for the Great War that is about to come.

Folks is giddy.  Wait till the Welsh pink hat 606ers arrive back on duty!  Then the schit will really hit the fan.  Looking forward to it 

top level club games in france are like playing at international level, especially in the forwards.

there is obviously a difference in intensity intl vs club. but you cant fault armitage for not being picked as a result of a SL policy. how does SL's policy automatically make SOB a better player?

of all the star studded players in ERC competitions (24 x HC and 20 x Amlin) how many 7s (or 6s for that matter) got nominated this year apart from Armitage?

too many one-eyed posters who dont think club rugby counts unless its for leinster

just so you don't think i'm wumming. check the england 6n/nz tour for my posts regarding steffon armitage (can you muppets please spell his forename correctly) and the fact i think he should be included in 6N, NZ tour and RWC 2015.

aint no WUM. everyone ignores him who doesnt have to worry about him. SL changes policy and oh my how he will suddenly appear on radars.

We're not even a blasted club, quins. We're just Ladyboys! I know, a terrible moniker to carry around for a respectable team of self-important D4 types but................. lotsa Leinster lassies and lady lassies have taken it to their heart anyway....as Jenifer proves!

SecretFly wrote:Ah it's just the p-iss out your territory season, in readiness for the Great War that is about to come.

Folks is giddy.  Wait till the Welsh pink hat 606ers arrive back on duty!  Then the schit will really hit the fan.  Looking forward to it 

Haha I'm here
Scared to get involved really, great entertainment though

  

Jhamer25 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Ah it's just the p-iss out your territory season, in readiness for the Great War that is about to come.

Folks is giddy.  Wait till the Welsh pink hat 606ers arrive back on duty!  Then the schit will really hit the fan.  Looking forward to it 

Haha I'm here
Scared to get involved really, great entertainment though

  

But you're not a pink hat though? Are you? As in, you do watch a bit of club/ladyboy rugby during the season?

get involved jhamer. don't let some ian madigan fanboy malign the world's backrowers in favour of an injured SOB in the "world's best 7" title.

World's Best Laid Up 7?

Surely, SOB can manage that title????

No? There's a better injured 7 out there???

Give me his name and address and I'll cure his injury quick like............................   

SecretFly wrote:World's Best Laid Up 7?

Surely, SOB can manage that title????

No?  There's a better injured 7 out there???

Give me his name and address and I'll cure his injury quick like............................   

(A light bit of pre6N banter) I can only assume that it's one of the 360 days this year that Warburton is injured so there's your competition

No No I'm fine
I hate to admit it quin, cause we don't get on that much but I do agree with you. People are being a bit harsh on Armitage and there is no doubt if he played in England he would play for England.
Sean O'Brien is one of the best rugby players in the world but is not the best 7 in europe never mind the world

Anyway,w e welsh are vulnerable of the number 7 shirt situation; Our best player in that position isn't even our first choice.   

Jhamer25 wrote: Our best player in that position isn't even our first choice.   

  You see? Funny without even trying. That's a fair pickle right enough.

SecretFly wrote:

Jhamer25 wrote: Our best player in that position isn't even our first choice.   

  You see?  Funny without even trying.  That's a fair pickle right enough.

Yep Warburtons supposed 'fitness boost' will see him thrown straight back in against Italy. No matter how good Tipuric has been playing

Just on that point? Are the Welsh going anywhere cold this season before the 6N starts? Somewhere in the minus 100 degrees range?

SecretFly wrote:Just on that point?  Are the Welsh going anywhere cold this season before the 6N starts?  Somewhere in the minus 100 degrees range?

Na i don't think so, we stopped that a few seasons ago

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2223667/Steffon-Armitage-faces-anxious-wait-failed-drugs-test.html
I mean come on, fair enough if he was good but he has to dope to maintain his already low playing standard.

that was before he got the best foreigner in france award. and 2 years before he was the only 7 nominated for erc player of the year.

you are such a one-eyed tube in your calling me idiotic for suggesting armitage. that right there will have reduced you in the eyes of all the experienced observers here, to the role of tweenie Muppet. the fact that you (and others) think my suggestion a wum is a glaring example of your insularity.

Robshaw and O'Brien aren't exactly 7.
Barclay owned Robshaw at the weekend. And i thought O'Brien was at his best in 2011 (before getting messed up with 7).

Warburton is still the best 7 in the northern hemisphere but in years to come i can esily see players like Jake Heenan of Connacht or Tommy O'Donnell of Munster overcoming him.
Honorable mention to Armitage.

PredictorofTeams wrote:


Please suggest a better 7 , I dare you!

Warburton
Tipuric
Lydiate
Mike Phillips
Warren Gatland
Jonathan Davies

There, I named you six that could do a better job at 7.

VinceWLB wrote:Robshaw and O'Brien aren't exactly 7.
Barclay owned Robshaw at the weekend. And i thought O'Brien was at his best in 2011 (before getting messed up with 7).

Warburton is still the best 7 in the northern hemisphere but in years to come i can esily see players like Jake Heenan of Connacht or Tommy O'Donnell of Munster overcoming him.
Honorable mention to Armitage.

Bit simplistic

The Saint wrote:

PredictorofTeams wrote:


Please suggest a better 7 , I dare you!

Warburton
Tipuric
Lydiate
Mike Phillips
Warren Gatland
Jonathan Davies

There, I named you six that could do a better job at 7.

post of the day. i laughed so hard i woke up the dog!   

quinsforever wrote:

The Saint wrote:

PredictorofTeams wrote:


Please suggest a better 7 , I dare you!

Warburton
Tipuric
Lydiate
Mike Phillips
Warren Gatland
Jonathan Davies

There, I named you six that could do a better job at 7.

post of the day. i laughed so hard i woke up the dog!   

that's no way to speak about the Mrs xx