Pirates of the South Seas

http://www.nzrugbyworld.co.nz/features/161/plunder-in-the-pacific

I am sure most of you will be aware of this article.

It is a damning indictment of pro rugby and for those that haven't read it I think it is worth your while to do so.

It seems the NZ trend for 'protecting' or ring fencing  Pacific Island players, especially Samoans, is becoming a ruse de guerre for all the big Unions. That more PI born players played in this years lions than Scots born is a worrying trend indicative of mercenaries not rugby players.

What we are seeing in France is a micro version of what NZ has been doing for years, offering the big bucks to the most talented players which may be contributing to the erosion of regional rugby in Wales. However in France this has only been a club level entity whereas New Zealand has a history of enabling players to gain eligibility for the national team. Much  as I admire NZ achievements, their results must be taken in context of who is playing for them and the plain fact is that NZ has by geography alone, directly gained form the talents of players born in another country.

Lam, Bunce and Bachop for example, all proud Samoans who played for that country but also played for the All Blacks. It has rightly been the subject of derision amongst some of the rugby world that the All Blacks do this, but it now seems we are all engaged in this unpalatable method of disproportionately padding out our teams with the most naturally gifted players in the world.

And what we are doing is much more than teaching them to tackle properly, because we stand to gain much more while they stand to lose it all. It is stripping the PI of it's rugby heritage. With England especially now latching on to NZ have been doing for years the gap will close sooner than you'd think.

Frankly I think it is pretty shameful but I accept it is inevitable in the same way Welsh Union players fled to league for the money, so the PI players seek their fame and fortune by following the demand for big quick men.

But when i read a Union is setting a target to 'protect' that vested interest it peaks my interest and sticks in my craw. If that means protecting them from playing in other Unions and their own then it must be stopped. What we should be doing is investing in PI rugby and, as I have read about this week, getting their grassroots game to a competitive standard so that these nations with a wealth of natural talent can compete where they belong with the best nations in the world.

Don't say you didn't ask for it scratch...
For one Lam, Bunce and Bachop were all born in NZ. They chose to play for the country of their heritage- NOT their birthplace- how on earth is NZ to blame for that by picking them when dual country play was allowed.

For another Auckland has by far the biggest Island population for years. They come here to live, to work to join and have families. Most have nothing to do with playing for the All Blacks.

Auckland feeds them, gives them jobs, schools their children blah blah and have done for decades. What do France and the rest of the NH countries do in this respect? Do they house and feed thousand of Pacific Islanders? No. They buy rugby players. Fullstop. Our rugby players come through a system of having been born, educated and lived there before rugby ever entered their lives.

Where do you find a Samoan in snow? Playing rugby in the NH that's where. Thats because there's no other reason any others would be crazy enough to want to live in those temperatures.

Auckland is protecting its rugby interests because it has had its rugby players pillaged for years since the game went pro.

Auckland is the best producer of rugby players in the world and was in the 80's when it wasn't so PI prolific. With the likes of JK, Foxy, the Whettons, McDowell, John Drake, Buck Shelford etc we also had the best non PI players. It is the best producer of players because our school and club system is superior to anywhere else.

Unfortunately both PI and non PI players are pillaged left, right and centre by League contracts, overseas clubs- AFTER having entered and learned their rugby in AUCKLAND.

Can the Welsh or any NH side say that they've ever taken a PI from birth and given them a professional rugby career? I doubt it.

As with the rest of the NH star players you buy them, you rarely grow them. That's the difference.

You want a bite of the cherry but are not prepared to do the ground roots work- because it largely isn't there.

Scratch I would not bother mate. It's the same old on this subject with kiwis, everyone knew it happened but eyes are shut. It has been happening for decades and even Graham Henry went over to the islands when he was a master at Auckland. Many of Australia's league players were plucked from the islands or were resident to Australia and not anywhere near NZ.

Crazy temperatures ?? Good enough for millions of people.   

This is what you get when you have externals who only know half a story. Henry went over himself to tell families to come to NZ to have their children born here so they could grow up to be All Blacks did they RW? Wow thats forward planning.

Or...which AB's did Henry bring back on his visits...? Very interested.

And how come we put our non PI players born here through the same sytem only to find that they are also better players than those non PI players in the NH?

The Cullens, McCaws, DC's etc- how come theyre on par with these so called 'elite' PI's

Could the common trait of being born, raised, learning their rugby in the same system be a mere coincidence? I wonder...

I could name a number of dark skinned English atheletes that have represented England in various sports. Does that mean England are pirates of Jamaican or African talent? No, of course not. Scratch and rainbow are ignorant. Rainbow should know better because he actually lives here but evidently against his will.

As I stated Scratch don't go there mate, ignorance is bliss here in NZ.

Mention the fact that Maori were not the first settlers of NZ despite the overwhelming evidence and you are instantly a racist.

Mention the poaching of schoolkids from the PI's with offers of better education in NZ and it is lies despite the facts that are there.

By the way bop as I have continually said I am JUST as entitled to live in NZ as you are.

Externals hahahahaha half a story hahahahaha more like sweep the facts under the carpet.

Scratch, Im not sure if you realise it but in Auckland, the Polynesian population is made up of Cook Islanders, Tokelauens, Tongans,Nueans, Fijians, not just Samoans. and most of them are born in Auckland

Of the above there are nurses, doctors, truck drivers, accountants, barmen, taxi drivers, cleaners and lawyers, not all Polynesians are professional rugby players.

Does that help at all?

rainbow-warrior wrote:
Mention the poaching of schoolkids from the PI's with offers of better education in NZ and it is lies despite the facts that are there.

That is completely absurd. What? NZ set out to deliberately populate Auckland with nearly 200,000 PI's with the aim of getting a better All Black side? An ethnic group that represents the lowest socio economic levels of the entire country? What a world you live in...

Maybe some of the (more reasonable) Kiwis here can see that these type of posts are only likely to be on the increase when one of their number continues to post 'challenging' articles/comments about every aspect of UK life.

Fair enough Cyril...good to know that two wrongs actually do make a right...

Taylorman wrote:Fair enough Cyril...good to know that two wrongs actually do make a right...

I didn't say either was right. Quite the opposite  

Yes, it is obvious Cyril. These posters dig holes for themselves. I've tried not to insult the countries of origin of certain posters as that would alienate pleasant and reasonable posters of said country. Play the man, not the ball. Something like that anyway.

Gregor Paul wrote:The NZRU are certainly being honest about that which is why they are making unprecedented efforts to engage the Pacific Island community.

Gregor Paul wrote:New Zealand knows the value of its diverse ethnic make-up; knows how important Pasifika has been and will continue to be. It also knows that everyone else knows.

Auckland, as the world’s largest Polynesian city, has an almost obscene amount of talent.

The emphasis in these quotes is mine. You've rather misinterpreted what this article is saying, really. The truth is; New Zealand has been the beneficiary of economic migration from the Pacific Islands for many decades. Immigration often offers a country access to different skill sets and this is a perfect example. We have a global problem in rugby with residency laws, we're seeing more and more examples of all unions picking hastily naturalised players but their is a large population of second-generation migrants with family origins in Samoa, born in New Zealand atm. The three specific players highlighted at the end of the article were all born in New Zealand.

It's a very good article, to be perfectly honest. It is of massive concern to me that three years as a pro player somewhere and you can change your allegiances. I feel a longer residency period would be appropriate, but that would not at all affect New Zealand from getting the best contribution out of second-generation or longstanding first-generation migrants. It would affect the Europeans and smaller nations more than anything else, and rightly so.

rainbow-warrior wrote:
By the way bop as I have continually said I am JUST as entitled to live in NZ as you are.

And were you a young rugby player who was good enough to play for the All Blacks, you'd be just as entitled to do so as him!

Of course, that would be poaching... right?  

Cyril, make yourself one promise in life, to travel to New zealand, come here to Auckland in the rugby season and watch about half a dozen games of senior Auckland club rugby (easily done). you will be utterly astounded at the involvement/contribution made by Polynesians to Auckland rugby.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Cyril, make yourself one promise in life, to travel to New zealand, come here to Auckland in the rugby season and watch about half a dozen games of senior Auckland club rugby (easily done). you will be utterly astounded at the involvement/contribution made by Polynesians to Auckland rugby.

sniff...sniff..stop it Laurie...now youre making me homesick!What I'd give to watch an Otahuhu Ponsonby match again...not the same here in windy...and shaky...Wellington.

ebop wrote:Yes, it is obvious Cyril. These posters dig holes for themselves. I've tried not to insult the countries of origin of certain posters as that would alienate pleasant and reasonable posters of said country. Play the man, not the ball. Something like that anyway.

Quite. I have to admit I've slipped on occasions but it was pretty much man and ball.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Cyril, make yourself one promise in life, to travel to New zealand, come here to Auckland in the rugby season and watch about half a dozen games of senior Auckland club rugby (easily done). you will be utterly astounded at the involvement/contribution made by Polynesians to Auckland rugby.

It's on the list. I've got an old mate in Oz that I keep meaning to visit so while I'm that side of the globe it would be silly not to.

Actually those two clubs are very good examples when one looks at the contribution Samoans have made not only as players but Coaches, referees, administrators, we have even had a Samoan Ponsonby player who went on to be an All Black, a coach of Samoa and President of the New Zealand Rugby Union, the British posters on here just do not grasp that Auckland Rugby is Polynesian rugby they just think its a situation where we poach a handfull of samoans each year because they might go on to be All Blacks.

Cyril wrote:

ebop wrote:Yes, it is obvious Cyril. These posters dig holes for themselves. I've tried not to insult the countries of origin of certain posters as that would alienate pleasant and reasonable posters of said country. Play the man, not the ball. Something like that anyway.

Quite. I have to admit I've slipped on occasions but it was pretty much man and ball.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Cyril, make yourself one promise in life, to travel to New zealand, come here to Auckland in the rugby season and watch about half a dozen games of senior Auckland club rugby (easily done). you will be utterly astounded at the involvement/contribution made by Polynesians to Auckland rugby.

It's on the list. I've got an old mate in Oz that I keep meaning to visit so while I'm that side of the globe it would be silly not to.

Thats excellant Cyril, You will be absolutely staggered.PM me when your coming over.

NZ campaigns the IRB every season to allow first tier internationals to also play for lower tiered nations rather than give up that right as it currently stands.

This would allow the tens of thousands of Polynesians who are born, educated, skilled and nurtured in the NZ rugby environment to have their crack at representing their home country and also go on to support their islands of heritage at a later stage in their career.

NZ is the only union who support this move. It is continually vetoed by the home nation unions.

It is not NZ "ring fencing" anything. It is NZ nurturing its indigenous Polynesian population and supporting its local region.

I grow tired of these kind of accusations and I thought we had cleaned 606 of them some time ago.

Look at the rugby World Cup statistics. The SANZAR nations have the fewest foreign born players. Samoa top the list with a 100% imported team and the home nations barring Ireland are all high up the list.

Clean your own shoes before you spit on someone else's.

Why do you New Zealand guys even engage on this topic?

It is clear for anyone to see that over the past two weeks there has been a "your country does this" theme which has led to a "boobie for tat" response.

Just ignore it.

What about the "ploynesians" who are born in New Zealand, or Auckland by the sounds of it, that go on to represent Samoa, Tonga, Fiji. Are they being poached by the Islanders ?

From an outsider looking in this scenario seems almost identical to what we have here in the UK, us Welsh the Scottish and the English are all bordering each other and in general terms we are only a small place, like the Pacific Islands, it is very easy to commute and live in each others country, like George North, English parent, moved to Wales so that is where he grew up from a baby and is now Welsh, Cuthbert is another, then it goes the other way, Ben Morgan has an English farther a Welsh mother, played all his age grade rugby in Wales but is English, these things have been happening up here for years and years, it looks as though the same thing is happening with the Pacific Islanders as well, so what can you do ? Nothing, that is the answer, what I will agree on though is three years is not enough to gain residency, it must be at least five, and more preferably seven to eight years if you ask me.

Biltong wrote:Why do you New Zealand guys even engage on this topic?

Same reasons that us UK folk comment on GE's stuff. Because it's there

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:Why do you New Zealand guys even engage on this topic?

Same reasons that us UK folk comment on GE's stuff. Because it's there

exactly. And how many times does a donkey hit its head against the same wall?

Biltong wrote:

Cyril wrote:

Biltong wrote:Why do you New Zealand guys even engage on this topic?

Same reasons that us UK folk comment on GE's stuff. Because it's there

exactly. And how many times does a donkey hit its head against the same wall?

If the wall was removed and the builder given a few weeks holiday the donkey would have a clear path to the water trough.

Good point LordD, you regularly see this sort of movement in the UK. Barring Ben Morgan who only qualified through residency for Wales, which is again fine. Wish people would just accept teams play to the rules and nationality is a blooming complicated thing.

You know your argument is in trouble Scratch when you see which idiots are agreeing with you. There does seem to be a section of UK people who seem to regard non-white people as foreigners in their country, and NZ (excluding Maori), regardless of how long they've lived there or even when they were born there. Why is that? What could their motivation be?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good point LordD, you regularly see this sort of movement in the UK. Barring Ben Morgan who only qualified through residency for Wales, which is again fine. Wish people would just accept teams play to the rules and nationality is a blooming complicated thing.

He also qualified for Wales by having a Welsh mother as well, I know she comes from Merthyr where I live, he even played for Merthyr, his farther though is from Gloucester.  

LordDowlais wrote:What about the "ploynesians" who are born in New Zealand, or Auckland by the sounds of it, that go on to represent Samoa, Tonga, Fiji. Are they being poached by the Islanders ? From an outsider looking in this scenario seems almost identical to what we have here in the UK, us Welsh the Scottish and the English are all bordering each other and in general terms we are only a small place, like the Pacific Islands, it is very easy to commute and live in each others country, like George North, English parent, moved to Wales so that is where he grew up from a baby and is now Welsh, Cuthbert is another, then it goes the other way, Ben Morgan has an English farther a Welsh mother, played all his age grade rugby in Wales but is English, these things have been happening up here for years and years, it looks as though the same thing is happening with the Pacific Islanders as well, so what can you do ? Nothing, that is the answer, what I will agree on though is three years is not enough to gain residency, it must be at least five, and more preferably seven to eight years if you ask me.

No Lord theyre not poached, they are merely players playing for their ancestoral Islands of heretage, there have been many Auckland samoans that hve been born and raised in Auckland and played all their rugby in Auckland but by their choice gone on to play for Samoa.and no one here sees it as a problem.

"Poach" is a Northern Hemisphere term.

Look guys, let's understand what poaching is before we start digging into every professional rugby player's history to find a stick to hit the dog with.

Poaching is to "buy" talent.


Before you can poach a player you need to IDENTIFY that the individual has talent.

There are millions of school kids with talent all over the world, not every country has the same development programs in world rugby either, in SA we have 8 man scrums from the age of 8, we have full line outs with lifting from the age of 8.

Other nations don't even have full contact or 15 man teams until much later.

Talent alone does not predict a player will be a star.

So to identify talent in a rugby player you need to give it some time, you need the player to DEVELOP isually it takes a number of years at the highest level to nurture and develop that talent.

The Craven Week for our school kids at the 18 year age group is where in SA talent is identified, before that the kids are too young, their commitment to hard work and the ability to learn all the necessary skills to become a star cannot be identified for certain, so at younger ages they only show potential.

In my view poaching can only occur when talent is identified, and from a South African perspective (again it varies from country to country) it start at craven week.

The players are contracted immediately from that point ny Provinces even though these kids still have to finish school.

If the Privinces refrain to contract these kids then, they simply lose out.

These youngsters from South Africa that leave here are being poached. Some are being poached for the specific reason to represent other countries.

Senior players who go overseas for retirement money is a different story alltogether.

So when you want to accuse anyone of poaching, at least think about the parameters of identifying talent and not potential, asthere is a big difference when a school offers a player with potential the opportunity to DEVELOP his talent at a rugby school.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What about the "ploynesians" who are born in New Zealand, or Auckland by the sounds of it, that go on to represent Samoa, Tonga, Fiji. Are they being poached by the Islanders ? From an outsider looking in this scenario seems almost identical to what we have here in the UK, us Welsh the Scottish and the English are all bordering each other and in general terms we are only a small place, like the Pacific Islands, it is very easy to commute and live in each others country, like George North, English parent, moved to Wales so that is where he grew up from a baby and is now Welsh, Cuthbert is another, then it goes the other way, Ben Morgan has an English farther a Welsh mother, played all his age grade rugby in Wales but is English, these things have been happening up here for years and years, it looks as though the same thing is happening with the Pacific Islanders as well, so what can you do ? Nothing, that is the answer, what I will agree on though is three years is not enough to gain residency, it must be at least five, and more preferably seven to eight years if you ask me.

 No Lord theyre not poached, they are merely players playing for their ancestoral Islands of heretage, there have been many Auckland samoans that hve been born and raised in Auckland and played all their rugby in Auckland but by their choice gone on to play for Samoa.and no one here sees it as a problem.

  "Poach" is a Northern Hemisphere term.

I was just playing devils advocate by asking that question. It seems to me that the Islands, including New Zealand all use the system to their advantage.

LordDowlais wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What about the "ploynesians" who are born in New Zealand, or Auckland by the sounds of it, that go on to represent Samoa, Tonga, Fiji. Are they being poached by the Islanders ? From an outsider looking in this scenario seems almost identical to what we have here in the UK, us Welsh the Scottish and the English are all bordering each other and in general terms we are only a small place, like the Pacific Islands, it is very easy to commute and live in each others country, like George North, English parent, moved to Wales so that is where he grew up from a baby and is now Welsh, Cuthbert is another, then it goes the other way, Ben Morgan has an English farther a Welsh mother, played all his age grade rugby in Wales but is English, these things have been happening up here for years and years, it looks as though the same thing is happening with the Pacific Islanders as well, so what can you do ? Nothing, that is the answer, what I will agree on though is three years is not enough to gain residency, it must be at least five, and more preferably seven to eight years if you ask me.

 No Lord theyre not poached, they are merely players playing for their ancestoral Islands of heretage, there have been many Auckland samoans that hve been born and raised in Auckland and played all their rugby in Auckland but by their choice gone on to play for Samoa.and no one here sees it as a problem.

  "Poach" is a Northern Hemisphere term.

I was just playing devils advocate by asking that question. It seems to me that the Islands, including New Zealand all use the system to their advantage.

No ones using anyone, its just what it is, as I was saying further up Auckland has a large Pacific island population, some are doctors, lawyers, truck drivers, mechanics, builders, and some just happen to be professional rugby players, we dont go out and head hunt specific Polynesians because they may be =come an All Black in ten years time, they are already here, many thousands of Polynesians are involved in Auckland Rugby as not only players but also coaches,physios, referees, and administrators. Some professional rugby players by choice go back and play for their island of heretage, as do some Doctors, lawyers, etc go back and ply their trade /profession in their Island of heretage...Does that help?

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good point LordD, you regularly see this sort of movement in the UK. Barring Ben Morgan who only qualified through residency for Wales, which is again fine. Wish people would just accept teams play to the rules and nationality is a blooming complicated thing.

He also qualified for Wales by having a Welsh mother as well, I know she comes from Merthyr where I live, he even played for Merthyr, his farther though is from Gloucester.  

Never knew that. Wales possibly missed that one then as everything I've read said he was waiting for residency. They could have jumped in earlier to try and tempt him.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good point LordD, you regularly see this sort of movement in the UK. Barring Ben Morgan who only qualified through residency for Wales, which is again fine. Wish people would just accept teams play to the rules and nationality is a blooming complicated thing.

He also qualified for Wales by having a Welsh mother as well, I know she comes from Merthyr where I live, he even played for Merthyr, his farther though is from Gloucester.  

Never knew that. Wales possibly missed that one then as everything I've read said he was waiting for residency. They could have jumped in earlier to try and tempt him.

His farther wanted him to play for England, and at the time we had Faletua and Ryan Jones, with the likes of Dleve waiting in the wings, but the main reason was his old man wanted him to play for England.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:What about the "ploynesians" who are born in New Zealand, or Auckland by the sounds of it, that go on to represent Samoa, Tonga, Fiji. Are they being poached by the Islanders ? From an outsider looking in this scenario seems almost identical to what we have here in the UK, us Welsh the Scottish and the English are all bordering each other and in general terms we are only a small place, like the Pacific Islands, it is very easy to commute and live in each others country, like George North, English parent, moved to Wales so that is where he grew up from a baby and is now Welsh, Cuthbert is another, then it goes the other way, Ben Morgan has an English farther a Welsh mother, played all his age grade rugby in Wales but is English, these things have been happening up here for years and years, it looks as though the same thing is happening with the Pacific Islanders as well, so what can you do ? Nothing, that is the answer, what I will agree on though is three years is not enough to gain residency, it must be at least five, and more preferably seven to eight years if you ask me.

 No Lord theyre not poached, they are merely players playing for their ancestoral Islands of heretage, there have been many Auckland samoans that hve been born and raised in Auckland and played all their rugby in Auckland but by their choice gone on to play for Samoa.and no one here sees it as a problem.

  "Poach" is a Northern Hemisphere term.

I was just playing devils advocate by asking that question. It seems to me that the Islands, including New Zealand all use the system to their advantage.

No ones using anyone, its just what it is, as I was saying further up Auckland has a large Pacific island population, some are doctors, lawyers, truck drivers, mechanics, builders, and some just happen to be professional rugby players, we dont go out and head hunt specific Polynesians because they may be =come an All Black in ten years time, they are already here, many thousands of Polynesians are involved in Auckland Rugby as not only players but also coaches,physios, referees, and administrators. Some professional rugby players by choice go back and play for their island of heretage, as do some Doctors, lawyers, etc go back and ply their trade /profession in their Island of heretage...Does that help?

Seriously, why are you trying to start a bun fight with me, please stop being so precious, like I have said, the situation is the same as it is in the UK and there is nothing that can be done about it, nobody is doing anything wrong, we also have English lorry drivers, Scottish doctors, English solicitors and the what not, it's because you can move to a different country and not be far from home, so to speak, so please stop getting so tetchy, I never said anything about head hunting.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good point LordD, you regularly see this sort of movement in the UK. Barring Ben Morgan who only qualified through residency for Wales, which is again fine. Wish people would just accept teams play to the rules and nationality is a blooming complicated thing.

He also qualified for Wales by having a Welsh mother as well, I know she comes from Merthyr where I live, he even played for Merthyr, his farther though is from Gloucester.  

Never knew that. Wales possibly missed that one then as everything I've read said he was waiting for residency. They could have jumped in earlier to try and tempt him.

His farther wanted him to play for England, and at the time we had Faletua and Ryan Jones, with the likes of Dleve waiting in the wings, but the main reason was his old man wanted him to play for England.

Gatland said he would have selected for the Baa Baas if he was qualified so I think someone has probably had their arse kicked for failing to spot his mum!

Not tetchy at all I was just explaining the situation because you asked, and you didnt appear to understand how things happen down here.... I used the word term head hunted in the same manner as the word "poach', which is the word you used.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Not tetchy at all I was just explaining the situation because you asked, and you didnt appear to understand how things happen down here.... I used the word term head hunted in the same manner as the word "poach', which is the word you used.

I was trying to explain to the less educated people from the UK and Ireland who post on here that New Zealand do as much for the likes of Samoa, Tonga and Fiji as they do for them, if anything New Zealand put more players into the smaller islands than the actual islands do themselves, so what is said about New Zealand could be said the same about the other islands, that is what I was trying to say, but you have got upon your soap box about poaching or head hunting and had a dig at me for it.  

LordDowlais wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: Not tetchy at all I was just explaining the situation because you asked, and you didnt appear to understand how things happen down here.... I used the word term head hunted in the same manner as the word "poach', which is the word you used.

I was trying to explain to the less educated people from the UK and Ireland who post on here that New Zealand do as much for the likes of Samoa, Tonga and Fiji as they do for them, if anything New Zealand put more players into the smaller islands than the actual islands do themselves, so what is said about New Zealand could be said the same about the other islands, that is what I was trying to say, but you have got upon your soap box about poaching or head hunting and had a dig at me for it.  

I sincerely apologise Lord Dowlais;

I thought you were asking a genuine question about New Zealand (specifically Auckland )Polynesian rugby players, and i was trying to answer that question.

I did not know I was being "tetchy', starting a bun fight, getting on a soap box, or having a dig at you.

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good point LordD, you regularly see this sort of movement in the UK. Barring Ben Morgan who only qualified through residency for Wales, which is again fine. Wish people would just accept teams play to the rules and nationality is a blooming complicated thing.

He also qualified for Wales by having a Welsh mother as well, I know she comes from Merthyr where I live, he even played for Merthyr, his farther though is from Gloucester.  

Never knew that. Wales possibly missed that one then as everything I've read said he was waiting for residency. They could have jumped in earlier to try and tempt him.

His farther wanted him to play for England, and at the time we had Faletua and Ryan Jones, with the likes of Dleve waiting in the wings, but the main reason was his old man wanted him to play for England.

Gatland said he would have selected for the Baa Baas if he was qualified so I think someone has probably had their arse kicked for failing to spot his mum!

That was more of a case of Gatland forcing Ben to make up his mind, I will never forget an interview his farther gave with Phill Steele during a Scarlets game on Scrum V, where he said that he hopes Ben chooses England as he was a proud Englishman, but he then pointed out that Ben has played rugby in Wales for some time and has Welsh friends and a Welsh mother so it was up to him, if I am honest though, I do not think that Gatland and the Welsh setup were overly fussed about him, I constantly here things comming from them like fitness issues and commitment issues.

aucklandlaurie wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

aucklandlaurie wrote: Not tetchy at all I was just explaining the situation because you asked, and you didnt appear to understand how things happen down here.... I used the word term head hunted in the same manner as the word "poach', which is the word you used.

I was trying to explain to the less educated people from the UK and Ireland who post on here that New Zealand do as much for the likes of Samoa, Tonga and Fiji as they do for them, if anything New Zealand put more players into the smaller islands than the actual islands do themselves, so what is said about New Zealand could be said the same about the other islands, that is what I was trying to say, but you have got upon your soap box about poaching or head hunting and had a dig at me for it.  

I sincerely apologise Lord Dowlais;

I thought you were asking a genuine question about New Zealand (specifically Auckland )Polynesian rugby players, and i was trying to answer that question.

I did not know I was being "tetchy', starting a bun fight, getting on a soap box, or having a dig at you.

  

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good point LordD, you regularly see this sort of movement in the UK. Barring Ben Morgan who only qualified through residency for Wales, which is again fine. Wish people would just accept teams play to the rules and nationality is a blooming complicated thing.

He also qualified for Wales by having a Welsh mother as well, I know she comes from Merthyr where I live, he even played for Merthyr, his farther though is from Gloucester.  

Never knew that. Wales possibly missed that one then as everything I've read said he was waiting for residency. They could have jumped in earlier to try and tempt him.

His farther wanted him to play for England, and at the time we had Faletua and Ryan Jones, with the likes of Dleve waiting in the wings, but the main reason was his old man wanted him to play for England.

Gatland said he would have selected for the Baa Baas if he was qualified so I think someone has probably had their arse kicked for failing to spot his mum!

That was more of a case of Gatland forcing Ben to make up his mind, I will never forget an interview his farther gave with Phill Steele during a Scarlets game on Scrum V, where he said that he hopes Ben chooses England as he was a proud Englishman, but he then pointed out that Ben has played rugby in Wales for some time and has Welsh friends and a Welsh mother so it was up to him, if I am honest though, I do not think that Gatland and the Welsh setup were overly fussed about him, I constantly here things comming from them like fitness issues and commitment issues.

'Back in May, Gatland said: "I have met Ben and told him he should wait (to choose) until he qualifies for Wales in January. That will give him a choice. I told him he would have been selected for the Wales squad to play the Baa-Baas (in June), if he was qualified for Wales." '

Sounds to me like they just didn't realise.

As far as I know there has never been a PI player selected in any Ireland squad.

GunsGerms wrote:As far as I know there has never been a PI player selected in any Ireland squad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Ward_%28rugby_union%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Boss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mullins_%28rugby_union%29

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Good point LordD, you regularly see this sort of movement in the UK. Barring Ben Morgan who only qualified through residency for Wales, which is again fine. Wish people would just accept teams play to the rules and nationality is a blooming complicated thing.

He also qualified for Wales by having a Welsh mother as well, I know she comes from Merthyr where I live, he even played for Merthyr, his farther though is from Gloucester.  

Never knew that. Wales possibly missed that one then as everything I've read said he was waiting for residency. They could have jumped in earlier to try and tempt him.

His farther wanted him to play for England, and at the time we had Faletua and Ryan Jones, with the likes of Dleve waiting in the wings, but the main reason was his old man wanted him to play for England.

Gatland said he would have selected for the Baa Baas if he was qualified so I think someone has probably had their arse kicked for failing to spot his mum!

That was more of a case of Gatland forcing Ben to make up his mind, I will never forget an interview his farther gave with Phill Steele during a Scarlets game on Scrum V, where he said that he hopes Ben chooses England as he was a proud Englishman, but he then pointed out that Ben has played rugby in Wales for some time and has Welsh friends and a Welsh mother so it was up to him, if I am honest though, I do not think that Gatland and the Welsh setup were overly fussed about him, I constantly here things comming from them like fitness issues and commitment issues.

I'm not so sure they wern't overly fussed, during the dark ages of our backrow with an ageing Martyn Williams, an ineffective Jon Thomas and Ryan Jones, only Morgan and Faletau really stood out as strong number 8s at club level, I was personally a bit gutted we couldn't hang on to Morgan, but at least Faletau has not disappointed us.

goneagain wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:As far as I know there has never been a PI player selected in any Ireland squad.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Bent

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andy_Ward_%28rugby_union%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaac_Boss

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Mullins_%28rugby_union%29

Ok yes they are technically PI as they are all from New Zealand but I assumed the OP was referring to the smaller rugby playing PI nations such as Fiji and Samoa etc. As these nations are the ones that struggle to hold onto their talent.

Rodney Ah You is also from New Zealand and was included in the latest squad.

At least Bent, Mullins and Boss are all of Irish ancestry though. Furthermore, any Kiwis that have represented ireland wouldnt have made the New Zealand team so "plundering" doesnt really describe this scenario very well.

Just pulling you leg a bit GG.

The OP is incapable of making the distinction between natural citizens of Pacific Island nations and those of Pacific island heritage who were born elsewhere. He has dropped his stink bomb and promptly left.

I didnt realise Pat Lam actually played for NZ...thought he only played for Samoa. Regardless one of my favorite players of all time and a falcons legend...  

I think this whole area of nationality is such a minefield. But in defence of those criticising NZ...most of the Samoa team are in fact NZ'ers...and id be interested to know how many in the Fijian team are NZ born aswell.

The ones that are causing the problems are the big NH clubs who are not freeing up the players to play for their countries.

Things arent going to get any clearer either with all the movement due to big money clubs etc more and more polynesian an other nationalities moving to france etc and having families there...

One area that will be interesting is the African connection. In football there are huge numbers of French players with African heritage moving back to play for the country of their heritage...i wonder if this will happen in rugby and possibly raise the standard of some of the African countries?

The whole question of residency, nationality and eligibility is a tough one, as is apparent.

To look at it from the player's perspectives though, with such a short career span should be be depriving those highly talented players from furthering their own skills and ambition by limiting them so strictly to countries of birth?

Moving away from the highly loaded PI debate, the likes of Vincet DeBatty for example would be so constrained by having seven year residency rules that you effectively limit his ability to earn and advance so stringently that there's little point in him actually playing.

It's also not true to say that effectively forcing such players to play for their country would necessarily mean better results and an advancement of rugby in that region. Far more than just raw talent goes in to top rugby teams. The resources and moreover potential of that team/region/country has to be taken in to account.