Pirates of the South Seas

First topic message reminder :

http://www.nzrugbyworld.co.nz/features/161/plunder-in-the-pacific

I am sure most of you will be aware of this article.

It is a damning indictment of pro rugby and for those that haven't read it I think it is worth your while to do so.

It seems the NZ trend for 'protecting' or ring fencing  Pacific Island players, especially Samoans, is becoming a ruse de guerre for all the big Unions. That more PI born players played in this years lions than Scots born is a worrying trend indicative of mercenaries not rugby players.

What we are seeing in France is a micro version of what NZ has been doing for years, offering the big bucks to the most talented players which may be contributing to the erosion of regional rugby in Wales. However in France this has only been a club level entity whereas New Zealand has a history of enabling players to gain eligibility for the national team. Much  as I admire NZ achievements, their results must be taken in context of who is playing for them and the plain fact is that NZ has by geography alone, directly gained form the talents of players born in another country.

Lam, Bunce and Bachop for example, all proud Samoans who played for that country but also played for the All Blacks. It has rightly been the subject of derision amongst some of the rugby world that the All Blacks do this, but it now seems we are all engaged in this unpalatable method of disproportionately padding out our teams with the most naturally gifted players in the world.

And what we are doing is much more than teaching them to tackle properly, because we stand to gain much more while they stand to lose it all. It is stripping the PI of it's rugby heritage. With England especially now latching on to NZ have been doing for years the gap will close sooner than you'd think.

Frankly I think it is pretty shameful but I accept it is inevitable in the same way Welsh Union players fled to league for the money, so the PI players seek their fame and fortune by following the demand for big quick men.

But when i read a Union is setting a target to 'protect' that vested interest it peaks my interest and sticks in my craw. If that means protecting them from playing in other Unions and their own then it must be stopped. What we should be doing is investing in PI rugby and, as I have read about this week, getting their grassroots game to a competitive standard so that these nations with a wealth of natural talent can compete where they belong with the best nations in the world.

Morgan is Gshire through and through. Schooled + played for Dursley now back on the true path at Kingsholm ... as his Father (sp) wished.

LordDowlais wrote:Yes, but if outside interests were not there in the first place would he have made the choice ?

Why shouldn't there be alternatives?

Chjw131 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes, but if outside interests were not there in the first place would he have made the choice ?

Why shouldn't there be alternatives?

chjw, why don't you then tell us what you believe poaching is, if it does exist?

LordDowlais wrote:No, what I am saying is, that a player who has the potential to play for the country of his origin because the money invested in him by his native country would have dreams of playing for HIS country, then a few scouts from lets say Wales go to that country and that player ticks all the boxes for a position that they are struggling with so they dangle him a carrot that the original country cannot compete with or will not compete with then decides to leave. Now, if that player was not approached the odds are that he would have never left his country to play rugby in the first place, but, because he has had his head turned he has now chosen to go, so infact his own choice was influenced by outside interests, the country of origin could potentially be losing a fine player and there is nothing they can do about it, is this not poaching ?

No. Supply and demand. Our players go and play in comparatively lower level tournaments because they are paid more. Simple- we have the greater supply, the NH has the greater demand, reflected by the increased $$ available to the player. if they were paid the same or more to play here, they wouldn't go, again...simple.

I understand Biltong's Rhino scenario (and its a good one) but here its about market forces determining the outcome- supply vs demand. National commitment is eroded by the simple market concept. Something we all have to live with...the borders arent what they used to be.

Pirates of the North Sea - the French?

Notch wrote:

rainbow-warrior wrote:
By the way bop as I have continually said I am JUST as entitled to live in NZ as you are.

And were you a young rugby player who was good enough to play for the All Blacks, you'd be just as entitled to do so as him!

Of course, that would be poaching... right?  

If I was good enough I would have played for Wales just like my sons would do despite being half Kiwi  

GloriousEmpire wrote:NZ campaigns the IRB every season to allow first tier internationals to also play for lower tiered nations rather than give up that right as it currently stands.

This would allow the tens of thousands of Polynesians who are born, educated, skilled and nurtured in the NZ rugby environment to have their crack at representing their home country and also go on to support their islands of heritage at a later stage in their career.

NZ is the only union who support this move. It is continually vetoed by the home nation unions.

It is not NZ "ring fencing" anything. It is NZ nurturing its indigenous Polynesian population and supporting its local region.

I grow tired of these kind of accusations and I thought we had cleaned 606 of them some time ago.

Look at the rugby World Cup statistics. The SANZAR nations have the fewest foreign born players. Samoa top the list with a 100% imported team and the home nations barring Ireland are all high up the list.

Clean your own shoes before you spit on someone else's.

Stop talking guff all your life, you decide to play rugby at a senior level for a country you get one chance tp pick that country, simple as.

Technically correct though on the foreign make up. The stats were posted last year. It's only likely to increase.. Interestingly, on the other note: we have a number of kiwis with african, Afro American or Caribbean heritage in our local club. Probably a reflection of modern migration. First ab with African heritage was the great rover,"ranji" wilson, who went on to a selector of the 1924 team. I don't think there were any others, probably not surprising given the historical make up of these islands. From memory, there would have been another, but for the fact NZ did't send a full strength side to South Africa until 1970 (whites only).

Speaking of modern migration when I first started playing rugby there were practically no foreigners in Ireland at all. English or Scottish people etc. were considered exotic. Dont think I saw a black person in Ireland other than Paul McGrath and Phil Lynnot (Thin Lizzy) on tv until I was 10 or something. These days Ireland is full of naturalised "foreigners". Mostly Polish, Lithuanian and Brazilians.

So hopefully fairly soon we will see some Kowalskis, Jankauskas and Oliveiras play for Ireland in the near future rather than poaching players from overseas. Id much rather we set up academies that are seeking to get the best from people that are growing up in Ireland than reaping benefits from other academies overseas.

The whole world population is on the move, rugby or otherwise. Forget all this 'national purity' nonsense in your national teams, its the 21st C and life has moved on.

Nope, the Boks must stay pure.

GunsGerms wrote:Speaking of modern migration when I first started playing rugby there were practically no foreigners in Ireland at all. Dont think I saw a black person in Ireland other than Paul McGrath and Phil Lynnot (Thin Lizzy) on tv until I was 10 or something. These days Ireland is full of naturalised "foreigners". Mostly Polish, Lithuanian and Brazilians.

So hopefully fairly soon we will see some Kowalskis, Jankauskas and Oliveiras play for Ireland in the near future rather than poaching players from overseas. Id much rather we set up academies that are seeking to get the best from people that are growing up in Ireland than reaping benefits from other academies overseas.

Very good point, Guns.  I've been waiting for those generations to grow up too.  Ireland right now, is....well, only reasonably successful for its size in sporting terms.  Every few years we throw up someone - cyclist, runner, golfer etc who can make the world sit up and notice.  But those periods are far too scratchy and infrequent right now - and one of the possible reasons is that relative lack of racial diversity in the country until about 15 to 20 years ago.

Now, given that we're still doing okay with only our old Celtic genes, the prospects of having our naturalised populations and their children coming on stream and taking to sport and representing us - well, I'm enthusiastic about that future.  In most Irish school classes now, when you look at pictures in local papers - the diversity of ethnicity is quite breath-taking sometimes in comparison to when I was a school.

  Maybe the 21st C is late getting around to the RSA.
Look Bil .... you are very much celebrated as the Rainbow Nation... no need to go poaching. Well maybe the odd Zimbabwean occasionally.

Secretfly, your post reminds me of the "Why are the Irish so ugly" sketch on The Savage Eye on RTE. Really funny stuff. Yes a bit of genetic diversity might benefit Ireland.

Here is a snippet of it that laments the British for not offering any genetic diversity during British rule:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKr0ElPjA

Very un-pc stuff.

SecretFly wrote:Pirates of the North Sea - the French?

Yes, them and the Scots... who own the oil & fishing rights to the North Sea.  

gregortree wrote:  Maybe the 21st C is late getting around to the RSA.
Look Bil .... you are very much celebrated as the Rainbow Nation... no need to go poaching. Well maybe the odd Zimbabwean occasionally.  

its the 21st century?  

Linebreaker wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Pirates of the North Sea - the French?

Yes, them and the Scots... who own the oil & fishing rights to the North Sea.  

Watch out for the re-emergence of the Auld Alliance  

Biltong wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes, but if outside interests were not there in the first place would he have made the choice ?

Why shouldn't there be alternatives?

chjw, why don't you then tell us what you believe poaching is, if it does exist?

I don't actually believe it does exist, the term 'poaching' is far too emotive as a terms. The practice of offering foreign players contracts to play for other regions/clubs is a simple matter of inhabiting a 'free market'.

As i've already said it's impossible to compel a player to play for another country which isn't their home land. So even if you feel South Africa should have some sort of veto over their players they can still invite any player which has left to come back and play for the Boks. If so you're actually left with the 'poaching' situation in reverse. Particularly as far as 'project' players are concerned.

Chjw131 wrote:

Biltong wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Yes, but if outside interests were not there in the first place would he have made the choice ?

Why shouldn't there be alternatives?

chjw, why don't you then tell us what you believe poaching is, if it does exist?

I don't actually believe it does exist, the term 'poaching' is far too emotive as a terms. The practice of offering foreign players contracts to play for other regions/clubs is a simple matter of inhabiting a 'free market'.

As i've already said it's impossible to compel a player to play for another country which isn't their home land. So even if you feel South Africa should have some sort of veto over their players they can still invite any player which has left to come back and play for the Boks. If so you're actually left with the 'poaching' situation in reverse. Particularly as far as 'project' players are concerned.

Ah, now I understand the motivation behind your arguments last might.

I suppose one's reasoning often depending whether shoe is on the other foot.

By the way, I only oppose poaching for one reason. Having first choice of our talent pool.

If we feed them develop them and finance their development then at least give us first choice, those not good enough can go where ever they want.

Biltong wrote:

Clyde Rathbone was captain of the SA junior World Cup team, Australia offered him a career before SARU could say "where the hell are you going"

Did the ARU offer him a career? How do we know he (or an agent of his) didn't approach the Aussies with an offer to play there?

Just saying - because he obviously had ties through his family and maybe he had long harboured a desire to leave on his own accord when the time arose and seek a different lifestyle and a fresh start to his senior career. Or do you think he was deliberately targeted and 'poached'?

He wrote a piece for the Roar where he explained his situation and why he left.

I am trying to recall the exact circumstances, the possibility of him moving to Oz came up during the tournament in casual conversation with some Aussie, but I can't remeber who it was.

After he went to Jake White to tell him he is moving to Oz and Jake threw his toys.

Rathbone did say in his article his mother was robbed at home and treated violently (I can't remember the full story) so his motivation was for a number of reasons.

But yeah, he was approached in a casual exploratory manner.

So he was possibly casually poached.

Linebreaker wrote:So he was possibly casually poached.

Yes he was...'Rathbone' is xhosa for 'Rhino horn'... 

Whats this Rathbone was Rhinoed by a Wallaby?

Biltong wrote:He wrote a piece for the Roar where he explained his situation and why he left.

I am trying to recall the exact circumstances, the possibility of him moving to Oz came up during the tournament in casual conversation with some Aussie, but I can't remeber who it was.

After he went to Jake White to tell him he is moving to Oz and Jake threw his toys.

Rathbone did say in his article his mother was robbed at home and treated violently (I can't remember the full story) so his motivation was for a number of reasons.

But yeah, he was approached in a casual exploratory manner.

Believe me casual exploratory manners can be more insidious than they seem. I once had a recurring pain deep in my lower back on the right hand side. A doctor casually suggested an exploratory procedure and I still have nightmares about it to this day.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Biltong wrote:He wrote a piece for the Roar where he explained his situation and why he left.

I am trying to recall the exact circumstances, the possibility of him moving to Oz came up during the tournament in casual conversation with some Aussie, but I can't remeber who it was.

After he went to Jake White to tell him he is moving to Oz and Jake threw his toys.

Rathbone did say in his article his mother was robbed at home and treated violently (I can't remember the full story) so his motivation was for a number of reasons.

But yeah, he was approached in a casual exploratory manner.

Believe me casual exploratory manners can be more insidious than they seem. I once had a recurring pain deep in my lower back on the right hand side. A doctor casually suggested an exploratory procedure and I still have nightmares about it to this day.

Let me guess

GE: Doc, help, I have a recurring pain in my lower back on the right side
Doc: That's because you have a light bulb inserted in your #$%^&*(
GE: I wondered where that went….i slipped and fell on it, honest

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Biltong wrote:He wrote a piece for the Roar where he explained his situation and why he left.

I am trying to recall the exact circumstances, the possibility of him moving to Oz came up during the tournament in casual conversation with some Aussie, but I can't remeber who it was.

After he went to Jake White to tell him he is moving to Oz and Jake threw his toys.

Rathbone did say in his article his mother was robbed at home and treated violently (I can't remember the full story) so his motivation was for a number of reasons.

But yeah, he was approached in a casual exploratory manner.

Believe me casual exploratory manners can be more insidious than they seem. I once had a recurring pain deep in my lower back on the right hand side. A doctor casually suggested an exploratory procedure and I still have nightmares about it to this day.

Let me guess

GE: Doc, help,  I have a recurring pain in my lower back on the right side
Doc: That's because you have a light bulb inserted in your #$%^&*(
GE: I wondered where that went….i slipped and fell on it, honest

Now i've figured out what GE stands for. General Electric!   

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pRWSnvIk3tA

Ah, the General Electric. What a total classic.

Gloria (in) Excelsis

Chjw131 wrote:

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Biltong wrote:He wrote a piece for the Roar where he explained his situation and why he left.

I am trying to recall the exact circumstances, the possibility of him moving to Oz came up during the tournament in casual conversation with some Aussie, but I can't remeber who it was.

After he went to Jake White to tell him he is moving to Oz and Jake threw his toys.

Rathbone did say in his article his mother was robbed at home and treated violently (I can't remember the full story) so his motivation was for a number of reasons.

But yeah, he was approached in a casual exploratory manner.

Believe me casual exploratory manners can be more insidious than they seem. I once had a recurring pain deep in my lower back on the right hand side. A doctor casually suggested an exploratory procedure and I still have nightmares about it to this day.

Let me guess

GE: Doc, help,  I have a recurring pain in my lower back on the right side
Doc: That's because you have a light bulb inserted in your #$%^&*(
GE: I wondered where that went….i slipped and fell on it, honest

Now i've figured out what GE stands for. General Electric!   

I just laughed so much i choked on my toast….f456k&^% hilarious!!!!!       

Some folks is easily pleased.

GloriousEmpire wrote:Some folks is easily pleased.

Apologies missed that bit

Let me guess

GE: Doc, help, I have a recurring pain in my lower back on the right side
Doc: That's because you have a light bulb inserted in your #$%^&*(
GE: I wondered where that went….i slipped and fell on it, honest
Doc: Some folks is easily pleased

I'm really not sure what you're implying. But when I read your posts with an Alan partridge accent they make much more sense.

Scratch wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Biltong wrote:He wrote a piece for the Roar where he explained his situation and why he left.

I am trying to recall the exact circumstances, the possibility of him moving to Oz came up during the tournament in casual conversation with some Aussie, but I can't remeber who it was.

After he went to Jake White to tell him he is moving to Oz and Jake threw his toys.

Rathbone did say in his article his mother was robbed at home and treated violently (I can't remember the full story) so his motivation was for a number of reasons.

But yeah, he was approached in a casual exploratory manner.

Believe me casual exploratory manners can be more insidious than they seem. I once had a recurring pain deep in my lower back on the right hand side. A doctor casually suggested an exploratory procedure and I still have nightmares about it to this day.

Let me guess

GE: Doc, help,  I have a recurring pain in my lower back on the right side
Doc: That's because you have a light bulb inserted in your #$%^&*(
GE: I wondered where that went….i slipped and fell on it, honest

Now i've figured out what GE stands for. General Electric!   

I just laughed so much i choked on my toast….f456k&^% hilarious!!!!!       

Seems like we have found a Miranda.

Needless to say, I had the last laugh.

goneagain…..GE's banned account

Scratch wrote:goneagain…..GE's banned account

Careful scratch. Such accusations as themselves bannable actions, I'd hate to see you go given all you
Contribute here!

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Scratch wrote:goneagain…..GE's banned account

Careful scratch. Such accusations as themselves bannable actions, I'd hate to see you go given all you
Contribute here!

  

why don't you report me….we know you like to run to teacher when the going gets tough

Scratch wrote:goneagain…..GE's banned account

Well done Clouseau.

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Scratch wrote:goneagain…..GE's banned account

Careful scratch. Such accusations as themselves bannable actions, I'd hate to see you go given all you
Contribute here!

  

why don't you report me….we know you like to run to teacher when the going gets tough

I merely do my duty to the forum by reporting transgressions to the relevant authority.

goneagain wrote:

Scratch wrote:goneagain…..GE's banned account

Well done Clouseau.

Which i guess makes you two Laurel and Hardy….are you the fat one or the stupid looking one?

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Scratch wrote:goneagain…..GE's banned account

Careful scratch. Such accusations as themselves bannable actions, I'd hate to see you go given all you
Contribute here!

  

why don't you report me….we know you like to run to teacher when the going gets tough

I merely do my duty to the forum by reporting transgressions to the relevant authority.

You mean you're a bottom feeder

Law abiding citizen

GloriousEmpire wrote:Law abiding citizen

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snitch&defid=2666528

nailed it!!!!

Another fine mess.

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Law abiding citizen

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snitch&defid=2666528

nailed it!!!!

Good research Scratch, I didnt appreciate the role that Snitch played in our language.

Snitchaholic,
Snitchassbitch,
Snitchcuntry,
Snitchasaurusrex.

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Law abiding citizen

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snitch&defid=2666528

nailed it!!!!

Dude whenever I get a PM from a moderator it always includes something about the long list of posters who have whinged on to the mods about this that or the other, so believe me if I reported one of your posts that was totally inappropriate and violated house laws, then that would be a drop in the ocean versus the legions of snitches who go PMing mods and reporting my posts whenever I post up a truth that is hard to swallow.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Law abiding citizen

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snitch&defid=2666528

nailed it!!!!

Dude whenever I get a PM from a moderator it always includes something about the long list of posters who have whinged on to the mods about this that or the other, so believe me if I reported one of your posts that was totally inappropriate and violated house laws, then that would be a drop in the ocean versus the legions of snitches who go PMing mods and reporting my posts whenever I post up a truth that is hard to swallow.

GE, are you saying there is no poster protection programme on 606v2?

That was canned last weekend, Cyril. It was proving too expensive and time consuming to run.

Cyril wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Scratch wrote:

GloriousEmpire wrote:Law abiding citizen

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=snitch&defid=2666528

nailed it!!!!

Dude whenever I get a PM from a moderator it always includes something about the long list of posters who have whinged on to the mods about this that or the other, so believe me if I reported one of your posts that was totally inappropriate and violated house laws, then that would be a drop in the ocean versus the legions of snitches who go PMing mods and reporting my posts whenever I post up a truth that is hard to swallow.

GE, are you saying there is no poster protection programme on 606v2?

No, it's alive and well…as long as Mr Sntichy Snitch Snitch rats on his fellow posters he gets immunity