Doing the maths on the HC pool stages, the following conclusions may (or may not) be able to be drawn

First topic message reminder :

Assigning 1 point for 1st in group, 2 for 2nd in group, 3 for 3rd and 4 for 4th, gives the following averages by league. Lower score is better.

Rabo 2.73

top14 2.42

AP 2.17

So in spite of the irish provinces topping 3 groups, that was still not enough to avoid the rabo being by far the weakest HC participant on average. And surprisingly, the league with the best average showing was the AP.

Make of it what you will. But i got bored of snide remarks from certain posters about how the english sides might as well not have bothered as no-one would miss them, so decided to do the maths.

21st century schizoid man

Well funnily enough I like my side to have aspirations to win the whole tournament!

A quarter final is a feat which is seen as incredible to some sides but to others it's business as usual.

TJ you cannot answer my points so you just ignore them.

Notch, I have but you cannot ignore TJ. He's an anti English WUM whose stuck in his mindset.

And so do I for Glasgow Warriors but that is not what you said previously.

BTW -I think you will find TJ is in fact English - although lives in Scotland.

Notch, this is in response to your 3.36 post, you say Moffet came across as hilarious, I thought he came across as level headed and the Moderators responses to him were disgraceful. Really you have to put into perspective what Moffet had to do to get Regionalism off the ground. Initially he said there was only enough players and enough money for 4 teams. Because of the threat of legal action by Llanelli and Cardiff due to existing agreements that was shelved and the same 2 teams demanded stand alone status, there were 5 Regions created, luckily for Moffet the Celtic Warriors folded and the optimum number in his eyes existed. Also in his early day he negotiated a smaller debt on the MS without increasing the payments, this is something that Lewis patently has not done.
I have said in other posts on different topics, that Lewis has done a reasonable job in fetching in revenue, it is spending it he has the problem, as he has no rugby history whatsoever that should be in the hands of a Rugby man, eg Pickering (Chairman), this is the position Moffet wants, and many within Regional Rugby and increasingly so in the Junior Clubs are realising he is NEEDED. It has been mentioned on more than one message board in Wales that he was shouted down by Lewis (Moderator) earlier in the debate which was deleted from the transmitted program. The supporters group who met with the WRU and RRW, were asked to submit questions before the debate and they were told they would be called, they were NOT and none of their questions were asked. To your point about the Irish model, I've answered this point on another topic the report commissioned by the WRU that was carried out by the highly respected financial firm Price Waterhouse Cooper, told the WRU did not have the money to run 4 Regions on Central Contracts, and as you know this is what the WRU are CONTRACTED to do in the Rabo, it is no good having less teams whether they be development or not as they could be sued by the other Unions

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:And so do I for Glasgow Warriors but that is not what you said previously.

BTW -I think you will find TJ is in fact English - although lives in Scotland.    

Indeed - I am english born of english parents with a very english name and accent.

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:And so do I for Glasgow Warriors but that is not what you said previously.

BTW -I think you will find TJ is in fact English - although lives in Scotland.    

Doesn't stop him from being anti-English (although I don't think he's a WUM, just misguided). Most ex-smokers are the most anti-smoking

EDIT: And yes, I do equate smoking with being English there.

So I am ex-English? I must tell Alec Salmond - it should confuse him nicely.
Like with the UK nationality of scotland is an oft misunderstood thing. I am NOT one of the Scots people, I AM one of the people of Scotland    I am however still English

21st Century Schizoid Man wrote:And so do I for Glasgow Warriors but that is not what you said previously.

BTW -I think you will find TJ is in fact English - although lives in Scotland.    

They are all British and 45% of them are anti-British. Lets not forget that post-shingler "knowing all about Scotland" qualifies you as a full on kilt wearing haggis molester.
He might be English but so were Ed Millibands dad and George North.

wayne wrote:Notch, this is in response to your 3.36 post, you say Moffet came across as hilarious, I thought he came across as level headed and the Moderators responses to him were disgraceful. Really you have to put into perspective what Moffet had to do to get Regionalism off the ground. Initially he said there was only enough players and enough money for 4 teams. Because of the threat of legal action by Llanelli and Cardiff due to existing agreements that was shelved and the same 2 teams demanded stand alone status, there were 5 Regions created, luckily for Moffet the Celtic Warriors folded and the optimum number in his eyes existed. Also in his early day he negotiated a smaller debt on the MS without increasing the payments, this is something that Lewis patently has not done.
I have said in other posts on different topics, that Lewis has done a reasonable job in fetching in revenue, it is spending it he has the problem, as he has no rugby history whatsoever that should be in the hands of a Rugby man, eg Pickering (Chairman), this is the position Moffet wants, and many within Regional Rugby and increasingly so in the Junior Clubs are realising he is NEEDED. It has been mentioned on more than one message board in Wales that he was shouted down by Lewis (Moderator) earlier in the debate which was deleted from the transmitted program. The supporters group who met with the WRU and RRW, were asked to submit questions before the debate and they were told they would be called, they were NOT and none of their questions were asked. To your point about the Irish model, I've answered this point on another topic the report commissioned by the WRU that was carried out by the highly respected financial firm Price Waterhouse Cooper, told the WRU did not have the money to run 4 Regions on Central Contracts, and as you know this is what the WRU are CONTRACTED to do in the Rabo, it is no good having less teams whether they be development or not as they could be sued by the other Unions        

To add a disclaimer, I missed the start of the debate and much of the discussion of central contracts.

I agree with much of your post, I'm sorry I think I should clarify what I meant regarding Moffett. He said he has more knowledge of rugby administration than anyone else in the room (very possibly true) and that he can deliver a solution in 10 days. I thought that was a bit... optimistic. The mutual antipathy between him and Lewis was obvious but if Moffett could form better relationships with the regions he'd more successful. To be honest, the most impressive person on the programme for me was Gareth Davies.

He reminded me rightly or wrongly of a politician on the campaign trail, making big promises. Lewis reminded me of an unpopular politician who's been found out and his days are numbered. Moffett talks a great game- I'm sceptical. I'm really concerned about the situation, as you say the WRU is contracted to provide 4 teams to the Pro12 and it's in everybodies interests that those teams are of as high a standard as possible.

Moffett made one point I thought was excellent- you either have central contracts entirely, or you don't have central contracts at all. The piecemeal approach the WRU seem to be considering is a reaaaally bad idea. The IRFU, NZRU etc basically have central contracts for every professional player. That is the legacy of decisions taken at the start of professionalism. My reaction to him was based on something he said after that that I took to mean he thought he could deliver central contracts. I may have been mistaken about what he meant, but if he was being serious then... I question whether he can walk the walk. But to be honest, at this stage, it would take a massive effort to by any incoming Chairman to turn the situation around.

One thing about the ScrumV debate I thought was utterly alarming was they asked English fans in the audience (the couple from Bath)what they thought, they asked an Irish fan (the lad in the Connacht jersey) and then they asked, I think, one Welsh fan. I thought that was an awful editorial decision. As usual, the supporters are taken for granted.

The debate did change my mind- it made me more critical of the Union and more supportive of the regions. But by and large it was massively demoralising. The situation is bad.

did u just change the title of this tread? can you change it back please?

quinsforever wrote:did u just change the title of this tread? can you change it back please?

quins, not me, not sure whats going on there. What was the original title of the thread?

can't remember. how about

"Doing the maths on the HC pool stages, the following conclusions may (or may not) be able to be drawn"

Done. I'm sorry, I really don't quite understand what happened there. I will try and find out why the title was changed  

no worries. couldnt care less what happened. in my industry it's generally known as "fat finger". we all do it now and again.

whatever the original title was i think this one is a better, and probably fairer one so it's all good

and thx for changing it back so quickly   

The Great Aukster wrote:BTW my proclivity with numbers is neither here nor there, it's the numbers themselves that are either rubbish or not. Again to simplify them for you, here are just the match points (including BPs) from this year's pool stages for the matches involving both AP and P12 teams.

Top 6 (from league last year) Pro12: 34 points v AP: 21 points
Rest of Pro12: 7 points v AP: 43 points

I'm sure a man with as much faith in his numerical analysis abilities as you could prove them to be rubbish in a matter of minutes?

Good luck with that.

Like the change of title

Any progress on this little maths challenge, Quinsforever?

aukster, i can't be bothered. maths is simple. if it's not, then it's ugly, tortured and frankly unconvincing. reading through your preconditions defeated me. i lost track of whether you were taking the results of the top 6 from this year, or the results of last year's top 6 in respective leagues, in this year's HC. or using the seeding from ERC (which is massively flawed obviously with guaranteed participation for rabo), or what.

so you win. whatever you are claiming, i am sure is statistically ok.

just like what i am claiming is statistically ok too. and an awful lot more straightforward mathematically and intuitively.

and by the way if you're looking for an apology, i refer you to rennard.

Morning boys.  Been on the road for a while.  
If I understand the point of this thread is to discuss the overall contributions by each league to the Heineken Cup this season?  

Regardless of the performance of the other Celtic League teams, it is obvious Rugby in Ireland is moving from strength to strength.  It is very impressive that 3 of 4 teams top their pools.   This is great for Irish Rugby (of course), but also great for Rugby in general to have another nation on a rock-solid growth path, which is how I see it.  I was in Ireland from last Friday to Monday and I saw Rugby all over the newspapers and being discussed everywhere I went.  Eventually the provincial form will translate to the national team.  

• I wonder, and can any Irish poster elaborate, is Rugby the number 1 professional sport in Ireland?  
  

For the rest of the Celtic League, there are issues.  Wales is imploding organisationally, Scotland is recovering from a long period of mismanagement, and Italy are still figuring their way.      

For the Premiership, it is disappointing, but it is clear the Irish teams are now the benchmark.  Perhaps in the past the Premiership clubs were comparing only to themselves or to the French.  A reason why the salary cap went up?  

For the Top 14, I wonder.  Toulon are deserved champions, but many teams do seem to play mediocre.  We all know the same old refrain that many of the Top 14 teams don't care about Europe.  Maybe that is so.  Or maybe they simply pack it in once out of the competition?  Don't really know.

doctor_grey wrote:I wonder, and can any Irish poster elaborate, is Rugby the number 1 professional sport in Ireland?  .

Rugby probably is, yes. I would say that rugby isn't the most popular sport in Ireland by a very long shot. GAA is massive, an absolutely massive part of life for many communities in Ireland- but it is still an amateur sport. Football is massively popular too but many, many fans support English or Scottish sides- the League of Ireland (south) and the NIFL Premiership (North) are of a low quality with talented local players universally leaving for bigger and better things. Football has significant involvement at grassroots level but it's not a draw for the fans- I'm finding it hard to find attendance figures but for most clubs in Northern Ireland I think we're talking about crowds in the hundreds. Perhaps four figures for some of the clubs over the border and the big Belfast beasts- I'm not the expert on this, maybe there is someone on the football boards who would know better than me?

There's a big gap in the market for high-quality professional sports that rugby has filled. I think GAA is the best attended sport on the island, I think it has grassroots participation that dwarfs everyone else and that support for GAA is high right from the small local clubs to the very top level, but the profile of rugby has just risen and risen over the past few years.

quinsforever wrote:and by the way if you're looking for an apology, i refer you to rennard.

The Molester? apparently

Notch wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:I wonder, and can any Irish poster elaborate, is Rugby the number 1 professional sport in Ireland?  .

Rugby probably is, yes. I would say that rugby isn't the most popular sport in Ireland by a very long shot. GAA is massive, an absolutely massive part of life for many communities in Ireland- but it is still an amateur sport. Football is massively popular too but many, many fans support English or Scottish sides- the League of Ireland (south) and the NIFL Premiership (North) are of a low quality with talented local players universally leaving for bigger and better things. Football has significant involvement at grassroots level but it's not a draw for the fans- I'm finding it hard to find attendance figures but for most clubs in Northern Ireland I think we're talking about crowds in the hundreds. Perhaps four figures for some of the clubs over the border and the big Belfast beasts- I'm not the expert on this, maybe there is someone on the football boards who would know better than me?

There's a big gap in the market for high-quality professional sports that rugby has filled. I think GAA is the best attended sport on the island, I think it has grassroots participation that dwarfs everyone else and that support for GAA is high right from the small local clubs to the very top level, but the profile of rugby has just risen and risen over the past few years.

Thing is there should be a massive gap in Wales for the same. They dont have GAA and only very recently had any sides competing at high levels in soccer.
Rugby supposedly has the same intrinsic status in local culture and communities in many areas that GAA does in the republic.
So where are the crowds? Wheres the development? Why is Ireland able to afford to fund 4 professional centrally contracted sides (3 of which are amongst the top 10 in europe) despite its economy having collapsed and manage to keep the super majority of its big names at home?

The malaise n Wales does go back to the pre regions times though, thats why they exist. A lot of people seem to forget just how close to the situation we are seeing now Welsh rugby had reached when Moffat waved his wand. Maybe it has just papered over the cracks but Wales have managed to revive their national side to a viable outfit and consistently challenged in the Celtic league over that time.

Its in everyones interests including Nigel Wrays (given hes accepted the south africans wont be joining a euro league for at least decade) that welsh rugby gets back to being viable and competitive.

quinsforever wrote:aukster, i can't be bothered. maths is simple. if it's not, then it's ugly, tortured and frankly unconvincing. reading through your preconditions defeated me. i lost track of whether you were taking the results of the top 6 from this year, or the results of last year's top 6 in respective leagues, in this year's HC. or using the seeding from ERC (which is massively flawed obviously with guaranteed participation for rabo), or what.

so you win. whatever you are claiming, i am sure is statistically ok.

just like what i am claiming is statistically ok too. and an awful lot more straightforward mathematically and intuitively.

At last.

I can assure you the figures are correct and they're not especially straightforward to get but computers are there for that sort of thing. I would still argue the most intuitive comparison should be exclusively between the top teams in each league rather than include the bottom teams of the P12, but at the end of the day it's fuel for debate!
It was your accusation of me lying and being rubbish with numbers without any foundation that I felt was uncalled for, especially if you weren't prepared to actually do the maths yourself.
So thanks for the acknowledgement.

Truth be told Peter, if we had Premiership football clubs in Northern Ireland like there are in Wales I genuinely think that would hit our crowds at Ulster. Speaking specifically about Ulster, and not the other provinces here.

I think there would be a lot of people who go to Northern Ireland international football matches and come to the odd game at Ravenhill. High quality football on our doorstep every week? There are loads of people who go across a few times a season to Old Trafford or wherever but most can't afford to go every week.

Obviously thats not going to happen, ever, football has developed in a different way and we don't have any football clubs with genuine mass appeal on our doorstep leaving Ravenhill as the best destination for anyone in the Belfast area who wants to see high quality sport. The fact the team contains so many local players who were and are fans who dreamed of playing for Ulster and Ireland combined with glamorous overseas players makes it a very appealing team to follow that really feels like it's rooted in the community.

I don't think we have the fastest growing supporter base of any professional sports team in Ulster, that would go to Belfast Giants Ice Hockey. It's a very different experience going to watch an ice hockey game to a rugby game- the game is fine, but they are constantly shoving advertising for fast food etc. down your throat in breaks in play, everything. I didn't enjoy that aspect of it. Nevertheless they are dominating their league and attracting new fans. They might well emerge as Ulster Rugbys main local competitor!

Interesting Question given the weakness of the Welsh Regions, are the English Clubs handcuffing themselves to a corpse? Would it not be better if they sought an accommodation with the 3 Irish Provinces given that they are the strongest parts of the Rabo? I mean you wouldn't invite Dundee Aberdeen And Inverness to join the Premier League leaving Celtic and Rangers out unless your goal was the destruction of the professional game in Scotland.

The Great Aukster wrote:

quinsforever wrote:aukster, i can't be bothered. maths is simple. if it's not, then it's ugly, tortured and frankly unconvincing. reading through your preconditions defeated me. i lost track of whether you were taking the results of the top 6 from this year, or the results of last year's top 6 in respective leagues, in this year's HC. or using the seeding from ERC (which is massively flawed obviously with guaranteed participation for rabo), or what.

so you win. whatever you are claiming, i am sure is statistically ok.

just like what i am claiming is statistically ok too. and an awful lot more straightforward mathematically and intuitively.

At last.

I can assure you the figures are correct and they're not especially straightforward to get but computers are there for that sort of thing. I would still argue the most intuitive comparison should be exclusively between the top teams in each league rather than include the bottom teams of the P12, but at the end of the day it's fuel for debate!
It was your accusation of me lying and being rubbish with numbers without any foundation that I felt was uncalled for, especially if you weren't prepared to actually do the maths yourself.
So thanks for the acknowledgement.

You can debate about the Maths all day long, but to only use the numbers that suit your argument, is fundamentally WRONG, you have to use every number available, that is the 24 who qualified from whichever League, this is why in the new proposed 20 team Competition the only League to lose teams is the Rabo, then you can use 6, 7 or possibly 8, which is only right

The Great Aukster wrote:

quinsforever wrote:aukster, i can't be bothered. maths is simple. if it's not, then it's ugly, tortured and frankly unconvincing. reading through your preconditions defeated me. i lost track of whether you were taking the results of the top 6 from this year, or the results of last year's top 6 in respective leagues, in this year's HC. or using the seeding from ERC (which is massively flawed obviously with guaranteed participation for rabo), or what.

so you win. whatever you are claiming, i am sure is statistically ok.

just like what i am claiming is statistically ok too. and an awful lot more straightforward mathematically and intuitively.

At last.

I can assure you the figures are correct and they're not especially straightforward to get but computers are there for that sort of thing. I would still argue the most intuitive comparison should be exclusively between the top teams in each league rather than include the bottom teams of the P12, but at the end of the day it's fuel for debate!
It was your accusation of me lying and being rubbish with numbers without any foundation that I felt was uncalled for, especially if you weren't prepared to actually do the maths yourself.
So thanks for the acknowledgement.

I know the point of this thread is about the leagues which provide teams which are more competitive throughout the pool stages.  And that is a valid point of discussion.  However, to me, the Heineken Cup has mostly nothing to do with leagues.  The leagues are merely the vehicle used to qualify teams for the tournament.  Once in, each team is on its own.  

So, there are only two things that really matter and a single number that matters.    
The two things that matter are qualifying out of the pool stages and then winning your last game.
The number which is important is the number 1.  All other teams have lost.  I think it's human nature for people to console themselves (as I have become used to doing) if their team makes a nice run.  
But the goal is to win, and I really dislike to lose. If Saints win, the Premiership doesn't win. Same if Leinster wins, the Celtic league doesn't win. Only the teams.

wayne wrote:You can debate about the Maths all day long, but to only use the numbers that suit your argument, is fundamentally WRONG, you have to use every number available, that is the 24 who qualified from whichever League, this is why in the new proposed 20 team Competition the only League to lose teams is the Rabo, then you can use 6, 7 or possibly 8, which is only right  

Wayne,
What argument do you think I'm trying to support?

All I did was present some numbers to help people make their own conclusions. Comparing the top 6 from each league in their performances against each other seems the fairest measure, because there is no other easy way to compare like with like.

Of course if you want to compare like with unlike, and produce meaningless statistics, feel free to do so. I would suggest that you include ALL the teams in the AP, P12 and T14 so that you can't be accused of cherry picking teams to suit you argument.

The Great Aukster wrote:

wayne wrote:You can debate about the Maths all day long, but to only use the numbers that suit your argument, is fundamentally WRONG, you have to use every number available, that is the 24 who qualified from whichever League, this is why in the new proposed 20 team Competition the only League to lose teams is the Rabo, then you can use 6, 7 or possibly 8, which is only right  

Wayne,
What argument do you think I'm trying to support?

All I did was present some numbers to help people make their own conclusions. Comparing the top 6 from each league in their performances against each other seems the fairest measure, because there is no other easy way to compare like with like.

Of course if you want to compare like with unlike, and produce meaningless statistics, feel free to do so. I would suggest that you include ALL the teams in the AP, P12 and T14 so that you can't be accused of cherry picking teams to suit you argument.

There are 38 teams playing in the 3 Leagues, do they all qualify for the HC, NO, for this years HC 11 Rabo, 7 French and 6 English qualified, they are the only ones that play against each other in this years HC, therefore you make an average of ALL those matches, NOT the ones you cherry pick.

"I wonder, and can any Irish poster elaborate, is Rugby the number 1 professional sport in Ireland?"

The number 1 professional sport in Ireland is horse racing. The horse industry is the third biggest industry in the country.

Soccer teams have been professional for longer than rugby and although the attendances on average would be smaller the number of pro clubs would be higher so the actual support is similar.

The GAA currently have ten times the number of clubs than the IRFU.

Although rugby has a higher profile here than ten years ago the attendances at the provinces have increased at the expense of the all ireland league (rugby competition for clubs) so some of the apparent increase in popularity of the pro teams is actually rugby fans switching from following one team to another.

The big difference that has happened for rugby is that it is currently almost everyone's second favourite sport (according to a poll taken and viewing numbers on tv etc). This is a big shift. The average person now in Ireland is interested in rugby to some degree. It's not a sexy thing to brag about but it's a significant shift in popularity.

The biggest increase in the popularity of rugby though seems to have happened in Scotland. Their numbers of players under 12 have gone through the roof. Whatever they are doing is what everyone else should copy.

Interesting comments, mate.  Especially about Rugby as everyone's second favourite sport.  I don't think that is a bad place to be at the moment.  I would think it can really help the Ireland team as a whole.  And that will raise the image oif Rugby across the country.

I knew playing numbers in Scotland were on the up, but had no idea it is that kind of growth.  Fantastic.  Problem is, though, we need to wait another 5 - 10 years to see if this translates to performance on the pitch.  Again, I hope so.

wayne wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

wayne wrote:You can debate about the Maths all day long, but to only use the numbers that suit your argument, is fundamentally WRONG, you have to use every number available, that is the 24 who qualified from whichever League, this is why in the new proposed 20 team Competition the only League to lose teams is the Rabo, then you can use 6, 7 or possibly 8, which is only right  

Wayne,
What argument do you think I'm trying to support?

All I did was present some numbers to help people make their own conclusions. Comparing the top 6 from each league in their performances against each other seems the fairest measure, because there is no other easy way to compare like with like.

Of course if you want to compare like with unlike, and produce meaningless statistics, feel free to do so. I would suggest that you include ALL the teams in the AP, P12 and T14 so that you can't be accused of cherry picking teams to suit you argument.

There are 38 teams playing in the 3 Leagues, do they all qualify for the HC, NO, for this years HC 11 Rabo, 7 French and 6 English qualified, they are the only ones that play against each other in this years HC, therefore you make an average of ALL those matches, NOT the ones you cherry pick.  

What is it you want to compare?

If you want to compare leagues then by your reasoning you can't just cherry pick those teams that are in the HEC, all the teams in each league should be compared. How can Zebre be included unless Biarritz and Worcester are also?

The Great Aukster wrote:

wayne wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

wayne wrote:You can debate about the Maths all day long, but to only use the numbers that suit your argument, is fundamentally WRONG, you have to use every number available, that is the 24 who qualified from whichever League, this is why in the new proposed 20 team Competition the only League to lose teams is the Rabo, then you can use 6, 7 or possibly 8, which is only right  

Wayne,
What argument do you think I'm trying to support?

All I did was present some numbers to help people make their own conclusions. Comparing the top 6 from each league in their performances against each other seems the fairest measure, because there is no other easy way to compare like with like.

Of course if you want to compare like with unlike, and produce meaningless statistics, feel free to do so. I would suggest that you include ALL the teams in the AP, P12 and T14 so that you can't be accused of cherry picking teams to suit you argument.

There are 38 teams playing in the 3 Leagues, do they all qualify for the HC, NO, for this years HC 11 Rabo, 7 French and 6 English qualified, they are the only ones that play against each other in this years HC, therefore you make an average of ALL those matches, NOT the ones you cherry pick.  

What is it you want to compare?

If you want to compare leagues then by your reasoning you can't just cherry pick those teams that are in the HEC, all the teams in each league should be compared. How can Zebre be included unless Biarritz and Worcester are also?

Look at the heading it is about the HC, and the first point was about this years, NOT 1995 or 2007, this year 2013/14 season, so you compare ALL teams that competed THIS YEAR, that is 11 Rabo, 7 French and 6 English, not 6 from each League because more than 6 qualified from 2 of those Leagues. This will be my last posting in answer to you, as it is patently obvious you cannot be educated on this point.

Doing the maths on the HC pool stages, the following conclusion may be drawn...

most posters haven't a clue how to do the maths in the first place.

Well said wayne.  

Intotouch I am sorry but Irish soccer at club level is a joke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues

It's nowhere near rugby. Irish rugby is more popular than Irish soccer.

GAA - well that seems to be impossible to measure.

But Soccer as a sport is more popular than Rugby.

This can be measured in terms of participation and support.
They are far more supports of Englsih Premership sides in Ulster than there are supporters of Ulster rugby

beshocked wrote:Well said wayne.  

Intotouch I am sorry but Irish soccer at club level is a joke.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues

It's nowhere near rugby. Irish rugby is more popular than Irish soccer.

GAA - well that seems to be impossible to measure.

If you take into account that there are 10 teams in the Irish pro league plus a Northern Irish league and only 4 professional rugby teams then it's not a huge gap,however the real gap is in participation numbers.The data on this page is both old and incomplete,I'm certain rugby has grown since but it does give an idea of the differences.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Ireland

wikipedia wrote:Gaelic football is the most popular sport in Ireland in terms of match attendance, and in 2003 accounted for 34% of total sports attendances at events in the Republic of Ireland, followed by hurling at 23%, soccer at 16% and rugby at 8%, and Initiative's ViewerTrack study measuring 2005 sports audiences showed the sport's highest-profile match, the All-Ireland Football Final, to be the most watched event of the nation's sporting year. Soccer is the most played team sport in Ireland.

geoff depends if you are taking about English soccer or Irish soccer.

The attendances of Irish soccer are a joke compared to those of Irish rugby.

How do you measure popularity? On profile? On average attendances? Participation?

At the highest level - Irish rugby crushes irish soccer - I am talking about the professional stuff. Not the grassroots. Talking about games in the HC too.

Even Connacht - the lowest of the Irish regions crushes the Irish soccer teams in attendances.

asoreshoulder I don't think saying there are more teams means that Irish soccer is more popular than Irish rugby.

As I said participation - more school kids play soccer than rugby.
As for spectators far more adults follow Premership sides, + Celtic and Rangers, than the 4 Provinces.
Soccer gets more coverage in the papers as well.

One game, soccer, is more popular than the other, rugby.

Just because the local stuff is rubbish doesn't mean people dont follow that game.
Soccer has a fantatical following from Irish people who don't know or care about the local stuff one bit

beshocked wrote:geoff depends if you are taking about English soccer or Irish soccer.

The attendances of Irish soccer are a joke compared to those of Irish rugby.

How do you measure popularity? On profile? On average attendances? Participation?

At the highest level - Irish rugby crushes irish soccer - I am talking about the professional stuff. Not the grassroots. Talking about games in the HC too.

Even Connacht - the lowest of the Irish regions crushes the Irish soccer teams in attendances.

asoreshoulder I don't think saying there are more teams means that Irish soccer is more popular than Irish rugby.

I don't think so either but what I was saying is that the lower number of teams means the average attendance is lower but the overall attendances would be a lot closer.

Found a quote on another forum saying this

paul-oshea wrote:You can get the full breakdown on VisitBritain.co.uk but the Irish had the most number of visitors to Premiership games last season at 174k.

If you added the number that travel to watch Celtic and teams like Leeds,Notts Forest etc.. in the lower divisions that would really add up.
http://foot.ie/archive/index.php/t-173339.html

asoreleftshoulder IRISH SOCCER, not ENGLISH FOOTBALL

Geoff I am talking about IRISH SOCCER.

IRISH RUGBY is more popular than IRISH SOCCER.

ENGLISH FOOTBALL is a different product to IRISH SOCCER.

beshocked wrote:asoreleftshoulder  IRISH SOCCER, not ENGLISH FOOTBALL

Geoff I am talking about IRISH SOCCER.

IRISH RUGBY is more popular than IRISH SOCCER.

ENGLISH FOOTBALL is a different product to IRISH SOCCER.

That's a pretty silly point to be making and a childish way to make it,soccer is more popular than rugby,I don't see why making a distinction between Irish and English soccer is useful.

Look what that all shows is that the grassroots argument is bunk when it comes to producing the best elite players in any sport. You can have all the mass participation you like, but its the investement in the top level that genuinely affects the outcomes at international level.
Rugby is a minority sport in Ireland, theres relatively few clubs and no great history ... but the professional game consists of a very small pool of elite competitors who have the resources and backing to succeed, the 4 provinces have get big crowds and the talent is diluted.
This was exactly what the Welsh tried to achieve by going regional. The same reality exists that although pro soccer is a joke in Wales (although very recently Cardiff and Swansea have upped the stakes) it still has more people follow it and far higher participation. Having 24 pro teams wont help Welsh rugby become great again unless those teams are genuinely able to support players with the resources required to take them from being "ok" to real elite. And lets look at the best players in europe .. well the Lions was mostly Welsh despite them having a pretty small player pool when compared to England and France. Why? Because they concentrate their resources on the elite and screwed most of the clubs.
Central contracting (which they have in Ireland and they sanzars) , is a step further. The EPS in England is a half way house.
But its all about taking an elite group of players and ensuring their careers are controlled and the best resources made available for them to step up another level. Ive long made the argument that Englands problem is 1/3 of the premiership being non qualified...its that the best half of what is qualified isnt getting the support to step up another level in quality. If anything he resources are diluted too far amongst too big a player pool.
Its this approach that bought Britain success in the Olympics. Rather than spending the cash on endless facilities for enthusiastic amateurs cash has gone into elite athletes who often train and compete outside of existing national structures. Taking those who are good and making them great. The flip side of this is that many competitors at a regional national level find themselves disenfranchised and their sport taken away form them. Becoming olympic can often be the worst thing for the majority of competitors.
And theres a thing. Its something positive to say about the WRU and RFU is that they at least claim to represent the interests of the grassroots and amateurs as well as the professional and national sides. But the IRFU have shown that mass participation is not required to make successful elite clubs and a competitive national side. Certainly in Europe they have their best stacks up against the French and English despite being dwarfed in both player numbers and viewers.
Look beyond that and rugby is a joke, but does that make one better than the other? Is the IRFU a failure because they only produced 3 good teams on a fourth professional one or a success because theyve produced 3 of top 8 in Europe?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:asoreleftshoulder  IRISH SOCCER, not ENGLISH FOOTBALL

Geoff I am talking about IRISH SOCCER.

IRISH RUGBY is more popular than IRISH SOCCER.

ENGLISH FOOTBALL is a different product to IRISH SOCCER.

That's a pretty silly point to be making and a childish way to make it,soccer is more popular than rugby,I don't see why making a distinction between Irish and English soccer is useful.

+1

To make the distiction is meaningless in the context of determining sport popularity

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:asoreleftshoulder  IRISH SOCCER, not ENGLISH FOOTBALL

Geoff I am talking about IRISH SOCCER.

IRISH RUGBY is more popular than IRISH SOCCER.

ENGLISH FOOTBALL is a different product to IRISH SOCCER.

That's a pretty silly point to be making and a childish way to make it,soccer is more popular than rugby,I don't see why making a distinction between Irish and English soccer is useful.

You don't seem to understand the significant difference between Irish soccer and English football. They are two different things. They are separate.

When I say Irish soccer I mean Irish soccer clubs who play in Ireland, comparing them to the Irish rugby clubs/regions playing in Ireland.

That means not including English football.

English football is not Irish sport. Irish rugby is. Irish soccer is Irish sport also.

English football games are not played in Ireland though yes I do understand that they are shown on tv and Irish people go to games in England but that's in England.

I am not comparing English football to Irish rugby. I am comparing Irish rugby to Irish soccer.

beshocked wrote:

You don't seem to understand the significant difference between Irish soccer and English football. They are two different things. They are separate.

When I say Irish soccer I mean Irish soccer clubs who play in Ireland, comparing them to the Irish rugby clubs/regions playing in Ireland.

That means not including English football.

English football is not Irish sport. Irish rugby is. Irish soccer is Irish sport also.

English football games are not played in Ireland though yes I do understand that they are shown on tv and Irish people go to games in England but that's in England.

I am not comparing English football to Irish rugby. I am comparing Irish rugby to Irish soccer.

Why? What is the point?

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:

You don't seem to understand the significant difference between Irish soccer and English football. They are two different things. They are separate.

When I say Irish soccer I mean Irish soccer clubs who play in Ireland, comparing them to the Irish rugby clubs/regions playing in Ireland.

That means not including English football.

English football is not Irish sport. Irish rugby is. Irish soccer is Irish sport also.

English football games are not played in Ireland though yes I do understand that they are shown on tv and Irish people go to games in England but that's in England.

I am not comparing English football to Irish rugby. I am comparing Irish rugby to Irish soccer.

Why? What is the point?

+1 again a totally pointless and irrelevant excercise

Why is it a pointless exercise? I am pointing out how superior in attendances Irish rugby is compared to Irish soccer.

There is not much of a following for local Irish soccer compared to Irish rugby.

It shows that the product of Irish soccer is not as popular as Irish rugby.

Irish rugby competing with English football is a completely different matter.

Intotouch was talking about SPORT IN IRELAND - English football is not in Ireland.

But soccer is more popular than Rugby in Ireland and as far as soccer has any relevance to Rugby, in Ireland, that is the only point worth making.

Geoff - actually the correct statement would be "English football is more popular than rugby in Ireland.

Irish soccer is not more popular than Irish rugby.

Doesn't explain that more soccer is played than rugby in Ireland though