Doing the maths on the HC pool stages, the following conclusions may (or may not) be able to be drawn

First topic message reminder :

Assigning 1 point for 1st in group, 2 for 2nd in group, 3 for 3rd and 4 for 4th, gives the following averages by league. Lower score is better.

Rabo 2.73

top14 2.42

AP 2.17

So in spite of the irish provinces topping 3 groups, that was still not enough to avoid the rabo being by far the weakest HC participant on average. And surprisingly, the league with the best average showing was the AP.

Make of it what you will. But i got bored of snide remarks from certain posters about how the english sides might as well not have bothered as no-one would miss them, so decided to do the maths.

Geoff are you talking about participation numbers? Well that's hardly a surprise when you can basically play football anywhere.

I am talking about professional sport. Watching a side week in week out - high level sport.

Sorry I am now totally bored as this is pointless and is going nowhere

It's only pointless because you don't seem to understand the difference between English football and Irish soccer.

You seem to think they are one and the same.

We're back on the yearly subject of "What is Ireland's most popular sport"?

I ask - Why?

Does it matter?

Why is it always brought up?

Rugby is a game played in Ireland that has achieved a level of success.... both domestically and in a European context.  That's all it has to be.  

That success doesn't have to be put into a context that tries to compare it to other sports on the island.  
Ireland is a small Nation with a small population - the only reason any of the sports get any audiences at all is because the Irish love sport, with a soft spot for racing and team field sports in particular.  There is a LOT of cross-over support between the various field sports; rugby supporters who also support GAA, football supporters who would also take in rugby games.  There isn't such a distinct division between supporters of any of the major sports played on the island.  It's a mesh

beshocked wrote:It's only pointless because you don't seem to understand the difference between English football and Irish soccer.

You seem to think they are one and the same.

Can you explain why the distinction matters.What is the point you are trying to make,I am trying to show that rugby is behind 3 other sports ins terms of popularity,both in participation numbers and to a lesser extent spectators.This suggests to me that Irish rugby still has huge room for growth as we are the only major rugby nation in Europe that doesn't have to compete with strong indigenous professional sports teams.

If we can get some of the money spent travelling to watch Premiership football into rugby instead and get some of the people playing football and GAA to give rugby a go then the IRFU will have more money to develop the best athletes the country can produce.

Is darts big in Ireland? I only ask as it's pretty big in Stoke (there always seem to be a disproportional number of guys from Stoke at competitions) and it's about as relevant as the rest of the stuff in here to the original post.

Well the OP is just a silly wum so it's hardly surprising we've moved on.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Well the OP is just a silly wum so it's hardly surprising we've moved on.

And it got so much better Can we turn this thread into an actual lecture on statistical methods? I do genuinely think that would be the best thing to come of this.

Darts? 4th most popular sport in Ireland for pub slugs who like shiny big shirts and a medalionised decolletage

SecretFly wrote:Darts?  4th most popular sport in Ireland for pub slugs who like shiny big shirts and a medalionised decolletage

Stephen Ferris loves darts.

I hope that this is the post that marks the transition from farcical to just bizarre.

HammerofThunor wrote:Is darts big in Ireland? I only ask as it's pretty big in Stoke (there always seem to be a disproportional number of guys from Stoke at competitions) and it's about as relevant as the rest of the stuff in here to the original post.

Don't know if it's big, but is it sport? Could we see Darts included in the next Olympics? Maybe include it in the Decathlon in place of the javelin?   

beshocked wrote:Geoff - actually the correct statement would be  "English football is more popular than rugby in Ireland.

Irish soccer is not more popular than Irish rugby.

Actually the correct statement would be 'Soccer is more popular than Rugby in Ireland'.

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geoff - actually the correct statement would be  "English football is more popular than rugby in Ireland.

Irish soccer is not more popular than Irish rugby.

Actually the correct statement would be 'Soccer is more popular than Rugby in Ireland'.

Nope, you're wrong.

beshocked wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geoff - actually the correct statement would be  "English football is more popular than rugby in Ireland.

Irish soccer is not more popular than Irish rugby.

Actually the correct statement would be 'Soccer is more popular than Rugby in Ireland'.

Nope, you're wrong.

Why is he wrong,that statement is factually correct.What is the point of omitting the people who follow soccer in England and Scotland when discussing the popularity of the sports in Ireland.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:It's only pointless because you don't seem to understand the difference between English football and Irish soccer.

You seem to think they are one and the same.

Can you explain why the distinction matters.What is the point you are trying to make,I am trying to show that rugby is behind 3 other sports ins terms of popularity,both in participation numbers and to a lesser extent spectators.This suggests to me that Irish rugby still has huge room for growth as we are the only major rugby nation in Europe that doesn't have to compete with strong indigenous professional sports teams.

If we can get some of the money spent traveling to watch Premiership football into rugby instead and get some of the people playing football and GAA to give rugby a go then the IRFU will have more money to develop the best athletes the country can produce.

As I pointed out many posts ago its actually largely irrelevant how much mass participation and how big the fan base is to the potential the elite in a sport can attain.
Tennis is a great example in Britain of a mass participation sport where there has be virtually no success in recent years, whereas rowing has very low participation and virtually no interest outside of the olympics and university boat race....yet the national representatives are the dominant world force.

When it comes down to it the 10,000 fat middle aged englishmen who haul themselves out onto a muddy field every weekend to punch each others hangovers out have absolutely no bearing on the success of the HC teams or world cup side ( except when Martin Johnson selects them)

That Manchester City and Celtic sell a billion shirts a minute in Ireland doesnt really much odds to the Irish national teams success unless guys with the build of Tom Court are going to be tempted to chance their arm getting a spot in a premiership soccerball side.

If player and audience numbers were that damn relevant then China would win all the things. Actually another good example, how many Chinese skiers do you think there are? Just wait till the winter olympics. Success in elite sport does not have to be bred from the grassroots.

What are we arguing here anyway? Whos Union has failed the most to grasp their publics imagination? Its not a great boast.

HammerofThunor wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Well the OP is just a silly wum so it's hardly surprising we've moved on.

And it got so much better :)Can we turn this thread into an actual lecture on statistical methods? I do genuinely think that would be the best thing to come of this.

     

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geoff - actually the correct statement would be  "English football is more popular than rugby in Ireland.

Irish soccer is not more popular than Irish rugby.

Actually the correct statement would be 'Soccer is more popular than Rugby in Ireland'.

Nope, you're wrong.

Why is he wrong,that statement is factually correct.What is the point of omitting the people who follow soccer in England and Scotland when discussing the popularity of the sports in Ireland.

No he's wrong. It's called football. British football in this case

British football is not an Irish sport. It might be very popular in Ireland but it's not Irish. Irish rugby is Irish.

You can only watch British football live if you travel to Britain to watch it.

I am talking about sport that people watch live in Ireland - you know like actually go to the game.


True PSW.

beshocked wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geoff - actually the correct statement would be  "English football is more popular than rugby in Ireland.

Irish soccer is not more popular than Irish rugby.

Actually the correct statement would be 'Soccer is more popular than Rugby in Ireland'.

Nope, you're wrong.

Why is he wrong,that statement is factually correct.What is the point of omitting the people who follow soccer in England and Scotland when discussing the popularity of the sports in Ireland.

No he's wrong. It's called football. British football in this case

British football is not an Irish sport. It might be very popular in Ireland but it's not Irish. Irish rugby is Irish.

You can only watch British football live if you travel to Britain to watch it.

I am talking about sport that people watch live in Ireland - you know like actually go to the game.


True PSW.

I'll once again ask out to explain why you are making the distinction,what is the point.You've dodged the question a few times now and I've given my reasoning above for why I'm including Irish people who follow English and Scottish football.

Why do you care anyway. Premiership football is unbelievably dull anyway. Its only popular in Ireland because for decades it was the only professional team sport available to view in Ireland and now because it is marketed very well. Other than that I cant understand why anyone would want to watch it.

asoreleftshoulder haven't dodged the question. My point is that Premiership football is a British product whereas Irish rugby is an Irish product. I think Irish rugby is making great strides and has good publicity and support when I have been to Ireland.

Gunsgerms I agree with that. Hence why I think Irish rugby can exploit that situation. As to why I bring it up - Premiership football is a British product whereas Irish rugby is an Irish one. Would be good for Ireland if Irish rugby can grow. I think competitively Irish rugby matches up very well. Irish rugby has a significant advantage because it's Irish hence making it more identifiable than a Premier league side.

beshocked wrote:asoreleftshoulder haven't dodged the question. My point is that Premiership football is a British product whereas Irish rugby is an Irish product. I think Irish rugby is making great strides and has good publicity and support when I have been to Ireland.

Gunsgerms I agree with that. Hence why I think Irish rugby can exploit that situation. As to why I bring it up - Premiership football is a British product whereas Irish rugby is an Irish one. Would be good for Ireland if Irish rugby can grow. I think competitively Irish rugby matches up very well. Irish rugby has a significant advantage because it's Irish hence making it more identifiable than a Premier league side.

Okay weird but I think we might be arguing a point we agree on.The reason I brought British football into it is the same.I think rugby has still got huge potential for growth since we don't have any other professional sport to compete with.We see a decent number of young G.A.A. players moving to Australia to play Aussie Rules just because they want to experience being professional sportsmen.Now that rugby is growing and there are new clubs springing up in areas that had never seen a rugby ball before the next batch of young athletes will get a chance to see if rugby could be an avenue to stay at home and make a living playing sport.

Irish rugby will overtake premiership football for popularity if it hasnt already. It is sometimes over exagerated how unpopular rugby is in Ireland. I wouldnt be surprised if it is the most watched and played sport now after GAA.

GunsGerms wrote:Irish rugby will overtake premiership football for popularity if it hasnt already. It is sometimes over exagerated how unpopular rugby is in Ireland. I wouldnt be surprised if it is the most watched and played sport now after GAA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Ireland

This has already been linked to, its still far less watched than soccer.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Irish rugby will overtake premiership football for popularity if it hasnt already. It is sometimes over exagerated how unpopular rugby is in Ireland. I wouldnt be surprised if it is the most watched and played sport now after GAA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Ireland

This has already been linked to, its still far less watched than soccer.

That link says football is more popular in terms of match attendance. Thats probably only because there are more football matches held in Ireland because half of Irish domestic rugby matches (rabo) are held in Britain and Italy.

I would suggest there is a chance that rugby is much more watched as all the games are televised whereas there isnt that much domestic irish football televised in Ireland and now that ManU are rubbish more than half Irish premiership "fans" are looking for something to occupy themselves with.

GunsGerms wrote:

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Irish rugby will overtake premiership football for popularity if it hasnt already. It is sometimes over exagerated how unpopular rugby is in Ireland. I wouldnt be surprised if it is the most watched and played sport now after GAA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Ireland

This has already been linked to, its still far less watched than soccer.

That link says football is more popular in terms of match attendance. Thats probably only because there are more football matches held in Ireland because half of Irish domestic rugby matches (rabo) are held in Britain and Italy.

I would suggest there is a chance that rugby is much more watched as all the games are televised whereas there isnt that more domestic irish football televised in Ireland and now that ManU are rubbish more than half Irish premiership "fans" are looking for something to occupy themselves with.

Sales of hand cream have doubled?

and possibly crime rates.

Aparently sport and crime are linked. According to an garda siochana the quietest night for crime in Dublin in the last 20 years was the 5th May 1997 when local man Ken Doherty beat Stephen Hendry 18-12 at the world snooker championship in the crucible theatre sheffield.

Aparently they didnt receive one call.

The other thing is that it has taken Irish Rugby a long time to shake off the belief that its a game for "Posh boys from the south and Protestants from the north" and of course it was a "British" game which hindered it's growth outside of it's core support, especially in Northern Ireland.
That said there was a geniune "all-Ireland" feel to 6Ns games and national celebration when we beat the English and of course the real legends like McBride and McKinney transcend the politics.
The strides made in recent years to make the game more appealling and inclusive have been tremendous, in terms of getting schools and young people involved and very much so in the view of Ulster as the provincial team rather than the N.I. team.
The issue of Irish people going to England and Scotland to watch football has been damaging to the Irish soccer game - if just 50% of the people who troop out of Dublin and Belfast to Liverpool, Manchester, Glasgow and London went to see their local side it would make a great difference to the clubs in Ireland, but I don't think it harms rugby too much. The weakness of the club game in Ireland is possibly overstated, the game is mostly amateur or at best semi-pro and the standard is below the English Championship.

GunsGerms wrote:and possibly crime rates.

Aparently sport and crime are linked. According to an garda siochana the quietest night for crime in Dublin in the last 20 years was the 5th May 1997 when local man Ken Doherty beat Stephen Hendry 18-12 at the world snooker championship in the crucible theatre sheffield.

Aparently they didnt receive one call.

In that case if Ireland won the world cup (football) pretty sure there would be no crime during the match - then a national riot right after it...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rw-ngKqVm2k

Cant view youtube at work. Is that the dancing at walkinstown roundabout in 1990 by any chance?

GunsGerms wrote:Cant view youtube at work. Is that the dancing at walkinstown roundabout in 1990 by any chance?

No, its "Carlsberg don't do dreams..." with Mr. Jason McAteer snug in bed at the end...

Oh right, great ad great song.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Irish rugby will overtake premiership football for popularity if it hasnt already. It is sometimes over exagerated how unpopular rugby is in Ireland. I wouldnt be surprised if it is the most watched and played sport now after GAA.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sport_in_Ireland

This has already been linked to, its still far less watched than soccer.

Those figures are 10 years old though. Makes a huge difference when you think of the success Irish rugby has had since then - particularly in the HC.

Before 2003 only Ulster had won the HC and that was when there was no English sides. Since 2003 the Irish have won the HC 5 times - Munster twice, Leinster three times.

Also even though Ulster haven't won it since 99 they have had a resurgence in the last 4 years.

The Irish (newly warm to the game) have taken to rugby because they realise it's warrior-like, it's a battle - and Irish women, may I say, I think they are actually quite a backbone to the rise in its fortunes here in Ireland.
I think rugby is a sport women connect to - and yes, for some bloody obvious reasons! - but even watching it, they're into it - the passion of it, the appreciation of the hard hits these guys are taking and still getting to their feet.  There is a nobility about the true honest effort you have to bring to a game of rugby that isn't always alive to women when they see football.

So Irish people like what they see when they see games like the Ireland v New Zealand one.  GAA and football are different kinds of adrenaline boosts for those that love those sports - but nobody denies the sheer courage needed to play rugby at the highest levels.  The viseral connection between fans and players when players are taking hard hits in their country's name - the Irish are increasingly seeing it, appreciating it and loving it.

So 5 pages in we are agreed:

You can prove anything with 10 year old statistics
Ireland are pretty good at the rugby
Ireland are unlikely to win the soccerball World Cup any time soon

Good work chaps.

beshocked wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geoff - actually the correct statement would be  "English football is more popular than rugby in Ireland.

Irish soccer is not more popular than Irish rugby.

Actually the correct statement would be 'Soccer is more popular than Rugby in Ireland'.

Nope, you're wrong.

Why is he wrong,that statement is factually correct.What is the point of omitting the people who follow soccer in England and Scotland when discussing the popularity of the sports in Ireland.

No he's wrong. It's called football. British football in this case

British football is not an Irish sport. It might be very popular in Ireland but it's not Irish. Irish rugby is Irish.

You can only watch British football live if you travel to Britain to watch it.

I am talking about sport that people watch live in Ireland - you know like actually go to the game.


True PSW.

For the benefit of those who know nothing about Ireland, football is normally called soccer to distinguish between the Gaelic and Association varieties.

The term 'soccer' describes a game not geography. The game of soccer is more popular in Ireland than the game of rugby because it is played at more schools and more clubs, watched by more people and has more professionals.

Without going too deep into semantics, there are millions of people who watch "live" sport without actually being at the game - or are SKY, BT Sport, ESPN, Setanta etc. setting themselves up to be sued?

Grass roots popularity has little to do with the increased effectiveness of the Irish teams in the HEC.

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

beshocked wrote:

The Great Aukster wrote:

beshocked wrote:Geoff - actually the correct statement would be  "English football is more popular than rugby in Ireland.

Irish soccer is not more popular than Irish rugby.

Actually the correct statement would be 'Soccer is more popular than Rugby in Ireland'.

Nope, you're wrong.

Why is he wrong,that statement is factually correct.What is the point of omitting the people who follow soccer in England and Scotland when discussing the popularity of the sports in Ireland.

No he's wrong. It's called football. British football in this case

British football is not an Irish sport. It might be very popular in Ireland but it's not Irish. Irish rugby is Irish.

You can only watch British football live if you travel to Britain to watch it.

I am talking about sport that people watch live in Ireland - you know like actually go to the game.


True PSW.

For the benefit of those who know nothing about Ireland, football is normally called soccer to distinguish between the Gaelic and Association varieties.

The term 'soccer' describes a game not geography. The game of soccer is more popular in Ireland than the game of rugby because it is played at more schools and more clubs, watched by more people and has more professionals.

Without going too deep into semantics, there are millions of people who watch "live" sport without actually being at the game - or are SKY, BT Sport, ESPN, Setanta etc. setting themselves up to be sued?

Grass roots popularity has little to do with the increased effectiveness of the Irish teams in the HEC.

The correct term is Assocation Football. The national governing body is called the Football Association of Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

This will explain the situation to you. Though those attendances stats are over 10 years old.

Do you measure a game's popularity by it's participation rate? Or by the strength of it's professional game?

E.g. the likes of Munster,Leinster and Ulster are far popular than any Irish local football team in terms of average attendances.

Yes and soccer is an English shortening of the name. Its not Irish or American, its the traditional name for that code.

Calling it "football" is really irritating when discussing multiple codes of the game.

beshocked wrote:Do you measure a game's popularity by it's participation rate? Or by the strength of it's professional game?

Using a ruler is probably the easiest - to measure the column inches devoted to it by the newspapers.

I prefer it's position on websites. So for most British/English media websites Rugby union is behind Football (Soccer and Cricket. For the Telegraph it's second behind football. This is ignoring that World Cups, Ashes, Olympics, etc go ahead. So for the Irish independent it goes Soccer, Gaelic football, hurling, rugby (union).

beshocked wrote:Do you measure a game's popularity by it's participation rate? Or by the strength of it's professional game?

Can't use that as in Ireland two of the most popular sports are amateur.

beshocked wrote:

Do you measure a game's popularity by it's participation rate? Or by the strength of it's professional game?

A lot of measurements can be done on pure instinct.  Not everything needs a calipers and a calculator.  Sometimes populations just know the answer.  And no, not by lying in bed contemplating on the subject but by simple conscious and subconscious observation of the world around them - printed media, gossip, TV, radio, internet social outlets etc.  People know the answers to some things without going to the stats professionals.  Most people in the UK realise football is the most popular sport in the UK.  They just know it - and they know they're right.

Same here - you can get the figures but sometimes you don't need them, and neither would you, deshocked, if you lived in Ireland and were familiar with the nuances through friends and media.  Popularity is popularity, and popularity talks - but it doesn't necessarily get to all the games live.  Doesn't make the sport any less popular if it's watched on TV, listened to on radio etc.

So, I'd say the most popular sport in the minds of most Irish people is probably football - (English Premiership)  That it's an external sport makes no difference - it is probably watched by more people in Ireland than any other sport on a year long basis.

Sports played IN Ireland.  I'd say GAA way ahead.  I'd feel rugby is above League of Ireland now.  This is not participation numbers, this is all about popularity levels.

I'm still waiting for a reason why this subject means so much though that at least at one point in every year it crops up as a question?  Rugby isn't close to being the most popular sport in England.  That doesn't matter - they still want to play it and win things.