France v England - Paris - 01/02/2014

by Chjw131 Thu 23 Jan 2014, 12:54 pm

French XXIII

1. T Domingo 2. B Kayser 3. N Mas
4. A Flanquart 5. P Pape
6. Y Nyanga 7. B Le Roux 8. L Picamoles
9. J-M Doussin 10. J Plisson
12. W Fofana 13. M Basteraud
11. M Medard 15. B Dulin 14. Y Huget

16. D Sarzewski 17. Y Forestier 18. R Slimani 19. Y Maestri 20. A Burban 21. D Chouly 22. M Machenaud 23. G Fickou

England XXIII

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola
9. D Care
10. O Farrell
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. L Burrell
14. J Nowell
15. M Brown

16. T Youngs 17. M Vunipola 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. B Morgan 21. L Dickson 22. B Barritt 23. A Goode

by Triangulation Thu 23 Jan 2014, 2:57 pm

Chjw131

You're right it is an "interesting" looking selection by PSA if it is indeed his selection.

A 6-2 split is usually to as you say "bludgeon" the opposition forward pack i think.

Correct me if i am wrong but hasnt PSA always been a bit "heavy metal" when it comes to selecting teams and forward packs.

I think he was at Sale. Really went for these collosal packs and sacrificed mobility?

Personally i dont think that will work. It might have done vs our unbalanced pack in the last match of last year's 6N vs Wales but not now. He is too late.

England by 3.

by Chjw131 Thu 23 Jan 2014, 3:03 pm

Triangulation wrote:Chjw131

You're right it is an "interesting" looking selection by PSA if it is indeed his selection.

A 6-2 split is usually to as you say "bludgeon" the opposition forward pack i think.

Correct me if i am wrong but hasnt PSA always been a bit "heavy metal" when it comes to selecting teams and forward packs.

I think he was at Sale. Really went for these collosal packs and sacrificed mobility?

Personally i dont think that will work. It might have done vs our unbalanced pack in the last match of last year's 6N vs Wales but not now. He is too late.

England by 3.

Yea he's definitely in the Iron Maiden mould. I think I remember him playing Hodgson at FB for his kicking as well.

I hope we've got the all round game to get at France but Huget and Medard have had some very good HEC games. As ever we could have plenty of the ball but little idea of what to do with it. Looks like he's shaping up for a 36/Burrell midfield.

by whocares Thu 23 Jan 2014, 4:37 pm

thanks for issuing that thread Chjw131 thumbsup

expecting a french starting team like that :

Domingo-Kayser-Mas
Papé-Maestri
Chouly/Burban-Picamoles-Burban/Nyanga
Doussain-Tales
Medard-Fofana-Bastareaud-Huget
Dulin

far from creative midfield and generally lack of good kickers.

by BamBam Thu 23 Jan 2014, 4:41 pm

Did Doussain play 10 for Toulouse recently? Or am I making that up?

by Scratch Thu 23 Jan 2014, 4:42 pm

I hope Lancaster doesn't underestimate French ability to totally produce the goods when they choose to…..i get he wants to bring Burrel et al into the picture but v France?

by B91212 Thu 23 Jan 2014, 4:46 pm

BamBam wrote:Did Doussain play 10 for Toulouse recently? Or am I making that up?

Pretty sure he did against Saracens in the HK. Played really well too, best performance from a french FH I've seen in a while.

Where is Parra (irritating little sh*t that he is but damn fine player)? I know he was originally not named in the squad due to injury but then I saw him playing for Clemont and he seemed okay. To maverick for PSA?

by whocares Thu 23 Jan 2014, 4:48 pm

BamBam wrote:Did Doussain play 10 for Toulouse recently? Or am I making that up?

yeah he played 10 (and was actually convincing) against Clermont and Saracens at home. he's the only reliable place kicker so shoudl start at 9 I would assume.

Parra was injured when the 1st list was issued, I still think he will re-emerge at some point as his last perfomance was actually good and he's stril lthe number one place kicker for France by miles.

by BamBam Thu 23 Jan 2014, 4:49 pm

I'd thought Parra was out, but you're right he was on the bench for the HC game last weekend. Maybe PSA thinks he's short of game time, possibly return later in the tournament

by BamBam Thu 23 Jan 2014, 5:14 pm

Ah, yes I remember it was the Sarries game I saw. He looked good that day definitely. I wonder if he would have played 10 if Parra had been fit?

by BamBam Thu 23 Jan 2014, 5:20 pm

Scratch wrote:I hope Lancaster doesn't underestimate French ability to totally produce the goods when they choose to…..i get he wants to bring Burrel et al into the picture but v France?

I see your point, but our pack is likely to be very settled, its the backs where we need to change players.

Burrell in particular is effectively a forced change - Tuilagi, Tomkins and Trinder all injured, so we have Burrell, Twelvetrees, Barritt and Eastmod for the centre spots. All are primarily 12s at AP level, but Burrell has the most experience at 13, playing under Lancaster at Leeds.

We will likely see a change on one wing too, one of May/Watson/Nowell to start with Ashton likely to be on the other wing.

Not wholesale changes in my opinion, I don't think we would underestimate the French in Paris one bit

by belovedfrosties Thu 23 Jan 2014, 6:09 pm

I read an article that SL wasn't entirely sure about whether to start 3 debutants away in france. So there will definitely be 1 new winger with Burrell and then possibly another new winger/centre?

Seems that PSA wants to field a monster pack and blow us away like the french teams have done to english ones in the HC. Problem with that is that the England pack is actually rather good, its big and strong enough to cope in the scrums but is also very mobile and is finally well balanced.

If France play that team i wouldn't be too worried, although that will probably mean that they'll hump us!

by Scratch Thu 23 Jan 2014, 6:12 pm

BamBam wrote:
Scratch wrote:I hope Lancaster doesn't underestimate French ability to totally produce the goods when they choose to…..i get he wants to bring Burrel et al into the picture but v France?

I see your point, but our pack is likely to be very settled, its the backs where we need to change players.

Burrell in particular is effectively a forced change - Tuilagi, Tomkins and Trinder all injured, so we have Burrell, Twelvetrees, Barritt and Eastmod for the centre spots. All are primarily 12s at AP level, but Burrell has the most experience at 13, playing under Lancaster at Leeds.

We will likely see a change on one wing too, one of May/Watson/Nowell to start with Ashton likely to be on the other wing.

Not wholesale changes in my opinion, I don't think we would underestimate the French in Paris one bit

Totally agree, I think though i would start Barrit and 12 3s v France, the centre continues to be England's main problem and in the absence of Tuilagi i feel this is a great balance, is Barrit fit? Would love to see May on the wing and in all honesty think Eng need to retire Ashton

by king_carlos Thu 23 Jan 2014, 6:19 pm

whocares wrote:thanks for issuing that thread Chjw131

expecting a french starting team like that :

Domingo-Kayser-Mas
Papé-Maestri
Chouly/Burban-Picamoles-Burban/Nyanga
Doussain-Tales
Medard-Fofana-Bastareaud-Huget
Dulin

far from creative midfield and generally lack of good kickers.

Bastareaud may be an old fashioned bludgeon but a midfield with Fofana in it is never going to lack too much creativity! In fact if England's attack doesn't improve on recent showing I'd back Fofana to produce more attacking threat in the match than most our backs combined!

He's also got an excellent back three too work in attack. I tend to say this before most our games now but we've got to sort out our kicking as far too many still go too long which will just feed guys like Medard and Dulin exactly the opportunities they want.

by ChequeredJersey Thu 23 Jan 2014, 6:27 pm

Parra is so much better than the other 9s and kickers in that team, absolutely different league. Very tasty first choice front row, but if we can nullify that then we should win this

by ChequeredJersey Thu 23 Jan 2014, 6:28 pm

Also amazed that Buttin isn't in the squad!

by Geordie Thu 23 Jan 2014, 9:14 pm

Right ill call it.

1 Marler / Mako - Tough decision
2 Hartley
3 Cole
4 Launchbury
5 Lawes
6 Wood
7 Robshaw
8 Vunipola

9 Dickson
10 Farrell
11 Watson (though id have May)
12 Twelvetrees
13 Burrell
14 Ashton
15 Brown

16Mako / Marler 17 Youngs 18 Thomas (Not comfortable with him on the bench but no one else) 19 Attwood 20 Morgan 21 May 22 Burns 23 Eastmond

by majesticimperialman Thu 23 Jan 2014, 9:37 pm

Scratch wrote:I hope Lancaster doesn't underestimate French ability to totally produce the goods when they choose to…..i get he wants to bring Burrel et al into the picture but v France?

I do think, believe that Lancaster as learned not too underestimate any team. Especialy France. To be very honest i don't think any coach will take any team for granted in this year's 6ns.

I am very surprised not to see Para in the France team. is he Injured? or as he been Injured, and not had much game time?

by Scratch Thu 23 Jan 2014, 9:43 pm

danger is if he goes for 2 or 3 newbies france will sniff blood…an already questionable bak line could struggle….i go for farrell 36 and brown who is class, but then I'm somewhat stuck….a debut centre v france….is barrit fit

by Geordie Thu 23 Jan 2014, 9:48 pm

It depends on how good the newbies are. And the seniors have hardly set the world alight have they.

Personally I think May is a cracking player and would start him.

I haven't really seen enough of Watson to make an honest comment...but judging by all he talk and signs (ie he's starting on the wing for the Saxons) its looking increasingly likely.

by Scratch Fri 24 Jan 2014, 3:43 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:It depends on how good the newbies are. And the seniors have hardly set the world alight have they.

Personally I think May is a cracking player and would start him.

I haven't really seen enough of Watson to make an honest comment...but judging by all he talk and signs (ie he's starting on the wing for the Saxons) its looking increasingly likely.

Agreed but you need a balance and experience in key positions v France. At home post Lions and with a spoon behind them i think they will be determined to take England down.

Is Barrit fit, if so he must play with 36, Brown at 15 and then May and probably…. Ashton.

by Geordie Fri 24 Jan 2014, 1:37 pm

Again, i agree...experience in key positions. But our older guys havent been performing or are injured.

I picked a team above that i think will start or certainly be as good as...
The pack is absolutely fine...

The backs are a major issue though

9 (Dickson) - None of the possibles have showed consistantly good form. Its all peaks and troughs with them...one needs to take that position by the scruf of the neck. Maybe someone not in the squad like Robson etc.

10 Farrell - He might lack razamataz and isnt hugely creative but hes experienced now and played in all sorts of high profile games considering he's only 21/22. He plays far better for Sarries aswell so hes fine. None of the others have put their hand up!

11 Watson (though id have May) - ALL the options are totally inexperienced yet hugely skilled. Yarde, Wade, May, Watson...so no matter what we've got to pick one.

12 Twelvetrees - We need Creativity outside Farrell. 36 has been given the chance...could have been Eastmond. I suspect he'll be on the bench. Tbe only experienced 12 we have is Barritt who again isnt creative which doesnt balance with Farrell at 10.

13 Burrell - All potentials are injured...and Burrell is on fire for his club. He has played a lot of 13 in his early years...so will probably switch depending on plays with Twelvetrees. Hugely physical though so should handle the hostility in France.

14 Ashton - very experienced, but just not able to adapt to lancasters game. Not Ashtons fault but i think with Burrell etc potentially smashing holes...we may see the Ashton who is playing very well for Sarries.

15 Brown - Inexperienced at this level but hugely experienced at club and HC level...and a quality player.

So yes we have inexperience in there but inconsistancies and injuries have played a part in that. Maybe these will have a silver lining as the kids come on and show their abilities...

16Mako / Marler 17 Youngs 18 Thomas (Not comfortable with him on the bench but no one else) 19 Attwood 20 Morgan 21 May 22 Burns 23 Eastmond

by lostinwales Fri 24 Jan 2014, 1:39 pm

GF I cant imagine that Dickson would be the only SH in the match day squad.

by Geordie Fri 24 Jan 2014, 1:44 pm

Mate those are the players who i think will start next week. At scrum half...It could be any of them...not one of them has really gone for the shirt and shown excellent consistancy

by No 7&1/2 Fri 24 Jan 2014, 1:53 pm

But one of them will be on the bench, prob Youngs.

by Geordie Fri 24 Jan 2014, 1:55 pm

Ah yes i missed one on the subs bench.

But i was meaning who should start...non have played well enough consistantly to nail it. And this is a critical position.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 24 Jan 2014, 1:57 pm

Agree with that. Think Dickson will start as he had the shirt in the AIs.

by lostinwales Fri 24 Jan 2014, 2:10 pm

My money is on Care - assuming he is fully recovered. I dont think there is enough confidence in Youngs form at the moment

by Chjw131 Fri 24 Jan 2014, 2:55 pm

If we see Watson play at all it'll be on the right wing. He's played either FB or right wing for Bath and U20s as far as I can remember. He's starting there for Saxons and has displaced Sharples from that spot.

From the Telegraph feature it looks like we might see Nowell, who i'd have thought was a firm 4th choice. He's more physical that the other three however, and his defence is almost certainly the best of the lot. That will please Gen. Farrell.

Again he has played predominantly right wing and FB. Frankly who knows it could be anyone. If it were my pick this is what i'd go with:

1. M Vunipola
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola
9. L Dickson
10. O Farrell
11. J may
12. B Twelvetrees
13. B Barritt
14. A Watson
15. M Brown

16. R Webber 17. J Marler 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. B Morgan 21. D Care 22. G Ford 23. K Eastmond

Burrell does deserve a shot and I think he will play at 13 but my pick would be Barritt. I appreciate he isn't an OC and I take the point that he may stifle some of the ball to the back three but away in Paris against Fofana and Basteraud and with two newbies on the wings Barritt is a must pick.

Vunipola offers another carrier although Marler's form has been excellent, Mako dealt very well with the Tolouse pack for Sarries.

At HB Dickson doesn't flood me with confidence and i'd like to see Care on the bench for a different option. Youngs needs to work on his form.

Webber on the bench gives the sort of power and scrummaging which Hartley does and he carries well. Tom Youngs has gone well without being outstanding recently. Eastmond for the back spot as he covers most positions and gives another option at centre. Although no doubt it'll be Goode.

by Chjw131 Fri 24 Jan 2014, 2:56 pm

My biggest concern at the moment is TH. Dan Cole hates scrummaging against Domingo and he has been schooled by him a couple of times for England. In the past Wilson has come on as a sound option but with Thomas I think we could get marmalised there.

by whocares Fri 24 Jan 2014, 3:03 pm

Yeah but PSA will routinely sub our entire front row after 60 minutes so it will even things out

by ChequeredJersey Fri 24 Jan 2014, 3:06 pm

lostinwales wrote:My money is on Care - assuming he is fully recovered. I dont think there is enough confidence in Youngs form at the moment

On form it should be Wriggles (plus partnership with Farrell) or Care really. But it won't. It will be Dickson starting and Youngs on the bench

by ChequeredJersey Fri 24 Jan 2014, 3:28 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:Again, i agree...experience in key positions. But our older guys havent been performing or are injured.

I picked a team above that i think will start or certainly be as good as...
The pack is absolutely fine...

The backs are a major issue though

9 (Dickson) - None of the possibles have showed consistantly good form. Its all peaks and troughs with them...one needs to take that position by the scruf of the neck. Maybe someone not in the squad like Robson etc.

I assume you mean at Int level? Have they been given the continuity allowed to certain other players to play into their club form? (nope...). But 2 have been much better than Dickson recently.

10 Farrell - He might lack razamataz and isnt hugely creative but hes experienced now and played in all sorts of high profile games considering he's only 21/22. He plays far better for Sarries aswell so hes fine. None of the others have put their hand up!

Should definitely start. Ford (and Cips) definitely have put their hands up though! And Burns did when allowed to try at this level, shame about his Club form...

11 Watson (though id have May) - ALL the options are totally inexperienced yet hugely skilled. Yarde, Wade, May, Watson...so no matter what we've got to pick one.

Agreed

12 Twelvetrees - We need Creativity outside Farrell. 36 has been given the chance...could have been Eastmond. I suspect he'll be on the bench. Tbe only experienced 12 we have is Barritt who again isnt creative which doesnt balance with Farrell at 10.

Mostly agreed, the centres need to click though. Can't balme it all on Farrell and I think that a threat at 9 like a Care playing to Club form and allowed to actually play his way or a Youngs refinding his form would help Farrell and the centres so much. Farrell isn't going to run, and neither is any England 9 under the gameplan. Therefore, either Farrell kicks or he passes (not his strength but ok) so 12 has huge pressure as the defence knows he is getting the ball and when and he can either lose yardage or "shovel on Poopie" as my coach used to say. How can the 12 launch an attack if he is the first playmaker? It's impossible, and discontinuity doesn't help at all. Aside from an attacking 10 (also needs good service from 9) the only options are really good ball from the pack (we can do this but don't always manage) and 9 (meant to be Dickson's strength but in the AIs he turned good pack ball into Poopie backs ball with some mediocre passing and decision making) which requires a 9 like Wrigglesworth if he can step up or an attacking 9 who will punish a side targeting the 12 by cutting the 9-10 channel apart!

13 Burrell - All potentials are injured...and Burrell is on fire for his club. He has played a lot of 13 in his early years...so will probably switch depending on plays with Twelvetrees. Hugely physical though so should handle the hostility in France.

Not inspiring but fair enough

14 Ashton - very experienced, but just not able to adapt to lancasters game. Not Ashtons fault but i think with Burrell etc potentially smashing holes...we may see the Ashton who is playing very well for Sarries.

He was playing well for Sarries in the Autumn too... and has been in Last Chance Saloon so long he has a tab

15 Brown - Inexperienced at this level but hugely experienced at club and HC level...and a quality player.

So yes we have inexperience in there but inconsistancies and injuries have played a part in that. Maybe these will have a silver lining as the kids come on and show their abilities...

16Mako / Marler 17 Youngs 18 Thomas (Not comfortable with him on the bench but no one else) 19 Attwood 20 Morgan 21 May 22 Burns 23 Eastmond

by Triangulation Mon 27 Jan 2014, 5:47 pm

It's forecast for rain in Paris lads. So that is it then.

We haven't a hope.

It will be good weather for Frogs especially the larger ones.

Scrum scrum and scrum again.

We need to move our season.

God i hate the rain. I know its a winter sport.

I know all that but it will ruin the match as a spectacle and reduce the chances of anyone wearing a number higher than 12 from having any impact on the match whatsoever with the exception of 15 when it comes to catching and kicking.

Feck

by No 7&1/2 Mon 27 Jan 2014, 5:51 pm

With the issues with the England backs and the performances in the wet last year isn't this good news for the English?

by Scratch Mon 27 Jan 2014, 5:54 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:With the issues with the England backs and the performances in the wet last year isn't this good news for the English?

Yes

I think a 10 man farcir votre chemise game is exactly what england might win at

the weather may reduce backs inlfucnece but does so on both sides = no fofana and bastereaud will get beached

by Duty281 Mon 27 Jan 2014, 6:14 pm

I think this game will be easier than most people anticipate. England by around eleven points, two tries to nil, and to make it their third consecutive victory over the French under Lancaster.

One thing's for sure: I don't envy all the the difficult selection choices that Lancster has to make with the insane amount of talent coming through!

by ChequeredJersey Mon 27 Jan 2014, 6:30 pm

I'm confident. France have looked useless under PSA and they can't bully our pack I think even with this selection. If we can survive the scrum, we will win

by EnglishReign Mon 27 Jan 2014, 6:48 pm

Never easy against France, especially away. Wouldn't it be just like them to find form out of nowhere?

I'm going for a tight win - England by 3.

by maestegmafia Mon 27 Jan 2014, 6:49 pm

Did you guys not watch France vs Sa or NZ?

by ChequeredJersey Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:02 pm

Good point but they've still forgotten how to win. And they had a good AI last season too and an abysmal 6N. Actually, doing well against SH does not mean you will do well against NH teams. There's a reason we get kids to play Rock Paper Scissors- it's to avoid the fallacy of a>b, b>c, therefore a>c, which is logical and false

by BamBam Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:05 pm

Very philosophical for a Monday evening CJ!

by maestegmafia Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:12 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Good point but they've still forgotten how to win. And they had a good AI last season too and an abysmal 6N. Actually, doing well against SH does not mean you will do well against NH teams. There's a reason we get kids to play Rock Paper Scissors- it's to avoid the fallacy of a>b, b>c, therefore a>c, which is logical and false

Aye but if you did watch France play in the autumn you would have seen that they have really changed their fortunes around. They are selecting good players on form and in the right positions.

French selection is always tricky as, so I am lead to believe, is still done by committee.

Tales is a big loss, but Basteraud is in good form, Dulin is a superb talent.

They are rather an unknown entity, they are not the team that played last year. They have serious potential to do well. They have the ability to lay down a big marker next Saturday.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:16 pm

But they haven't picked on form here, Machenaud is not on form, they barely have a 10 and the selection looks pretty dodgy

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:16 pm

Look I have France down to win the torunament but I wouldnt be blind enough ti say the side isnt in turmoil. Theres injuries and players left out because they havent been able to get a slot with their clubs.
Mind you could say the same for england who have lost their second and third choice fly halves and refuse to pick the one whos played the best this year for the squad. On top of which they are missing 4 or 5 outside backs to injury and dont have a scrum half who anyone would select.

by ChequeredJersey Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:18 pm

Ford is in the squad isn't he? Whistle

by maestegmafia Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:25 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Ford is in the squad isn't he?

If Lancaster is smart he'll pick Ford..

by Scratch Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:26 pm

France

They will totally confound any attempt to predict their performance, you just don't know who will turn up, how they will play. Will their hooker be asked to kick, will Fofana play in the scrum, will Michalak sneak onto the bench, will PSA howl at the moon..... point is, they were last years spoon but we all know they could just as easily turn it around and win this year, not many sides are capable of that reversal of fortunes

by ChequeredJersey Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:28 pm

Still think they are mad to not have Parra in there, he's a class above their other options at 9

by Scratch Mon 27 Jan 2014, 7:29 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Still think they are mad to not have Parra in there, he's a class above their other options at 9

injured no?

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