France v England - Paris - 01/02/2014

First topic message reminder :

French XXIII

1. T Domingo 2. B Kayser 3. N Mas
4. A Flanquart 5. P Pape
6. Y Nyanga 7. B Le Roux 8. L Picamoles
9. J-M Doussin 10. J Plisson
12. W Fofana 13. M Basteraud
11. M Medard 15. B Dulin 14. Y Huget

16. D Sarzewski 17. Y Forestier 18. R Slimani 19. Y Maestri 20. A Burban 21. D Chouly 22. M Machenaud 23. G Fickou

England XXIII

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola
9. D Care
10. O Farrell
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. L Burrell
14. J Nowell
15. M Brown

16. T Youngs 17. M Vunipola 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. B Morgan 21. L Dickson 22. B Barritt 23. A Goode

chjw131 you say Nowell is a better defender. You are probably right but he's barely been tested in high level matches.

Ashton was very poor defensively against arguably one of the best back threes in Europe - Gear,Medard,Huget. Still scored a try of his own.

Cumbrian are seriously comparing an U20 match to the first game in the 6 nations away to France? Playing well against people his age is different to coming up against players like Medard and Huget.

thomh Remember North and Cuthbert are two huge lumps. Halfpenny isn't admittedly.

Just looked at the RFU website. Team announcement 10:25 on the 30th

beshocked wrote:

Ashton was very poor defensively against arguably one of the best back threes in Europe - Gear,Medard,Huget. Still scored a try of his own.

What about in all of the other games where he is defensively poor though? Take off the black and red striped specs for once.

North and Halfpenny came straight out of age grade rugby, at 18 and at 20 for Leigh. In order, it went premiership rugby then regional, then international duty seeing as both were scoring tries every week. The transition happened sooner for North than it did Halfpenny, though North was thrown in too soon. Cuthbert went from Cardiff RFC, to Wales Sevens, to Regional, to international. You don't know if it would work for England because you've hardly tried it (except perhaps with Tuilagi, and he's one of the best you have).

The Saint wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Ashton was very poor defensively against arguably one of the best back threes in Europe - Gear,Medard,Huget. Still scored a try of his own.

What about in all of the other games where he is defensively poor though? Take off the black and red striped specs for once.

North and Halfpenny came straight out of age grade rugby, at 18 and at 20 for Leigh. In order, it went premiership rugby then regional, then international duty seeing as both were scoring tries every week. The transition happened sooner for North than it did Halfpenny, though North was thrown in too soon. Cuthbert went from Cardiff RFC, to Wales Sevens, to Regional, to international. You don't know if it would work for England because you've hardly tried it (except perhaps with Tuilagi, and he's one of the best you have).

Again check Nowells carreer history and youll see why people question the choice.

Its also fair to say that England have a far bigger pool of players to select from and shouldnt ever really be in a position (even with injuries) where they have no choice but to chance their arm on kids. Theres guys like Strettle and Ashton available who "are scoring tries every week". Even the 19 year old Watson has more club games under his belt.

Tuilagi was an exception. But by the time he was selected for England he'd already played senior games (with his club) against South Africa and Australia, standing up to both. He was also first selected for friendlies...not a tough away 6 nations opener.

England arent that desperate to find a new wonder winger that they need to take such chances are they? They still have Foden to return and projects like May, Joseph, Wade and Yarde on the radar.

I can understand wanting to blood Ford as soon as possible, England are really short of options at fly half with or without experience. But why the rush to ditch Ashton who has delivered in the past and is on form for a kid with almost no senior rugby?
Ok its a case of "we can only accommodate one out and out winger and want a second fullback" so why does May keep his spot ahead of Ashton?

I dunno I cant help feel this 3/4 is needlessly risky. Headless chickens again.
The biggest danger to England is for all their tackling ability Englands backs division will be a disorganised mess in defence and utterly disjointed in attack.

PSW, I'm not anti-Ashton but he's gone an entire season without delivering for England. I think the structure of the team is worse off with him, as he is such a defensive liability. That is why he should be ditched, or if he has to be in the squad, then well down the pecking order. Foden and May are good options, as is Strettle (was he picked?).

I haven't watched much premiership rugby, so not sure how Nowell has been doing.

England have always been far too conservative and I applaud SL if he does take the odd calculated risk. Of course it is not ideal to blood new players away to France, but as the RWC is next year we really cannot afford to waste anymore time. If Nowell, May and Burrell have impressed in training then go for it. If any of them come through well then by the time of the RWC they might have 10 odd caps to their name, which will be very useful if they are called upon. Of course we would not be in this position if Yarde, Wade and Manu were fit, but as they are not I think this is a worthwhile gamble. Exactly how have Strettle and Ashton set the international stage alight in recent times. We need players who will score tries and make things happen and maybe these new players will be better at that. There may be some defensive errors, which we should expect against any good international side, but then again Ashton has hardly been a rock in that area. England need more attacking options so I think this is a good way to go. The priority is the RWC and not this 6Ns. SL could have picked Goode at 15, Brown and Ashton on the wings and there would probably be fewer defensive errors on Sat, but that is not the point.
And maybe some of these guys are actually good enough and England will take a step forward? If not then we can always revert to safer options.

The Saint wrote:PSW, I'm not anti-Ashton but he's gone an entire season without delivering for England. I think the structure of the team is worse off with him, as he is such a defensive liability. That is why he should be ditched, or if he has to be in the squad, then well down the pecking order. Foden and May are good options, as is Strettle (was he picked?).

I haven't watched much premiership rugby, so not sure how Nowell has been doing.

Hear, hear.

Ashton's been living on borrowed time for over a year now. Enough is enough, surely?

There's young talent to replace him - use it!

beshocked wrote:chjw131 you say Nowell is a better defender. You are probably right but he's barely been tested in high level matches.

Ashton was very poor defensively against arguably one of the best back threes in Europe - Gear,Medard,Huget. Still scored a try of his own.

Cumbrian are seriously comparing an U20 match to the first game in the 6 nations away to France? Playing well against people his age is different to coming up against players like Medard and Huget.

thomh Remember North and Cuthbert are two huge lumps. Halfpenny isn't admittedly.

In the Quins Big Game, within what was a poor team performance, Nowell still ran for 63 metres and beat 6 defenders to go with his yellow card.

He's faced Toulon' s motley superstars and the likes of North and various other Lions in HC. In AP, he's come up against North (again), and Ashton and Strettle amomgst others.

He lacks experience, but I don't think it's fair to say that he's been barely tested.

Why do we need to blood new players when England have stacks of wingers and centers who are still playing and have had recent caps or been part of the set up? Its like he has to give everyone a go. Why the need to gamble?

Exactly how many players do you need to blood before you start trying to actually build a team?

The summer was supposed to be the time for peeing around with kids. What does this say about Lancasters time ..I still havent got a clue who should be in my backs division so Im starting from scratch every 6 months?
Even Twelvetrees is fairly late to the party and far from experienced or settled.
The SH is anyones guess.

Reserve FH he can be forgiven for.


Failing to get the best out of Ashton (when hes still producing for his club) should be seen as Lancasters biggest failing. Ditching two of the Premierships best try scoring wings in the middle of a (short term) wing injury crisis for players who are not naturally wingers seems fruity IMO.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Why do we need to blood new players when England have stacks of wingers and centers who are still playing and have had recent caps or been part of the set up? Its like he has to give everyone a go. Why the need to gamble?

Exactly how many players do you need to blood before you start trying to actually build a team?

The summer was supposed to be the time for peeing around with kids. What does this say about Lancasters time ..I still havent got a clue who should be in my backs division so Im starting from scratch every 6 months?
Even Twelvetrees is fairly late to the party and far from experienced or settled.
The SH is anyones guess.

Reserve FH he can be forgiven for.


Failing to get the best out of Ashton (when hes still producing for his club) should be seen as Lancasters biggest failing. Ditching two of the Premierships best try scoring wings in the middle of a (short term) wing injury crisis for players who are not naturally wingers seems fruity IMO.

Who do you suggest who is experienced, on form and injury free? - That is the problem.

It is very early days for Nowell and he'd only be 4th choice at best right now. But the alternatives are injured and he does have potential, and is a better defender than Ashton.

It is true we havent been making best use of Ashton, but to try to do so is only an option its not a requirement.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
The summer was supposed to be the time for peeing around with kids. What does this say about Lancasters time ..I still havent got a clue who should be in my backs division so Im starting from scratch every 6 months?
Even Twelvetrees is fairly late to the party and far from experienced or settled.
The SH is anyones guess.

Reserve FH he can be forgiven for.

Well Twelvetrees and May were two of the kids he peed about with in the Summer, Tuilagi, Joseph, Yarde and Wade are all out with injuries.

The scrum half point is fair. God knows why we need four in the squad.

beshocked wrote:chjw131 you say Nowell is a better defender. You are probably right but he's barely been tested in high level matches.

Ashton was very poor defensively against arguably one of the best back threes in Europe - Gear,Medard,Huget. Still scored a try of his own.

Cumbrian are seriously comparing an U20 match to the first game in the 6 nations away to France? Playing well against people his age is different to coming up against players like Medard and Huget.

thomh Remember North and Cuthbert are two huge lumps. Halfpenny isn't admittedly.

Beshocked, I believe it was an U20 World Cup Final referred to, not just any U20 game. For the team and Nowell it will have been just as nerve wracking as a senior international. I am not for or against his inclusion, there are arguments both ways. I don't know if it is Ashtons fault or the game plan, but he was OK when SL first took over. It is a fact though that whatever the reason, it is not working. He is not making the support runs that he used to; why I don't know. That was what mad Ashton a success not his ability out wide where he is a good finisher, but not special. He is a known quantity and in a game where we have so many new faces and such in experience I can understand the arguments for his inclusion. I can also understand the reasoning behind Newall or Watson playing.

Whatever happens, he has to be on the bench if not playing, May and 36 can between them cover the whole backline except 9 and both Newall and Watson cover 15. Ashton to come on if any of the new boys take fright or prove themselves not up to it.

beshocked wrote:chjw131 you say Nowell is a better defender. You are probably right but he's barely been tested in high level matches.

Ashton was very poor defensively against arguably one of the best back threes in Europe - Gear,Medard,Huget. Still scored a try of his own.

Cumbrian are seriously comparing an U20 match to the first game in the 6 nations away to France? Playing well against people his age is different to coming up against players like Medard and Huget.

thomh Remember North and Cuthbert are two huge lumps. Halfpenny isn't admittedly.

When did I do that?   

Cumbrian, are you aiming at me or Beshocked, I quoted him.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote: I don't know if it is Ashtons fault or the game plan, but he was OK when SL first took over. It is a fact though that whatever the reason, it is not working. He is not making the support runs that he used to; why I don't know. That was what mad Ashton a success not his ability out wide where he is a good finisher, but not special.

Is he not making the runs, or are we not making the breaks in midfield for him to capitalise on? I've seen it suggested more than once that Foden's presence was the key to Ashton's international form, but Foden was only involved in the build up to one of his tries, in the 81st minute against Georgia. The most frequent source of his tries was breaks by Flood etc through the centre of the field that he was there to capitalise on. Since we shifted to Farrell at 10 we are making fewer midfield breaks and there are fewer opportunities for him to exploit. When Tuilagi ran through New Zealand's midfield in 2012 it was Ashton who was there to take the pass.

Not defending his international form at all, but I do think that he just doesn't fit the way that England have been playing under Lancaster to a certain extent.

If you want the best out of Ashton then pick Wigglesworth/Hodgson at halfback, and nick Duncan Taylor from Scotland .

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Cumbrian, are you aiming at me or Beshocked, I quoted him.

Beshocked.

I think there's some confusion. I was talking about the Exeter Chiefs game vs. Toulon in France. Although Nowell did pretty well in the U20's final too and there was a lot of pressure coming through in that game.

The Saint wrote:If you want the best out of Ashton then pick Wigglesworth/Hodgson at halfback, and nick Duncan Taylor from Scotland .

I wouldn't be averse to the first two suggested, perhaps SL needs to have a word in CH's shell like and ask him to come back for a year to allow us to blood Ford.

Beshocked would be up in arms though, pinching both Sarries 10s, 12 and a 9.   

I would still get the jitters though if we needed a pressure kick in the last few minutes, I remember the Charlie of old.

the saint which other games are you referring to? Hardly the only player to make a defensive howler!

Well said PSW   

Dubbeloverate surely you shouldn't mention Nowell vs Ashton. In that game, Ashton tore through the Exeter defence to set up Ransom for the only try in the match.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/squads.php?player=98452&includeref=dynamic

He's played 5 matches. No tries. He hasn't faced North this season.

2 matches in the HC - both vs Toulon . No tries.

So basically Nowell's selection for England will be based on 7 matches where he has scored 0 tries.


Ashton has taken part in 8 AP matches - 4 tries and 6 HC matches with 7 tries.

Cumbrian you mentioned the U20 final. You stated it as an example of experience.

There is no point having Ashton on the bench Well past it. Either start Ashton or drop him completely.

Firstly it's not as nerve wracking because it's not in a huge stadium with lots of people watching, the stakes aren't as high, the quality of opposition is not as high, it's not your first cap for your country, you are playing with people with similar experience to yourself.

There are so many differences.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:

The Saint wrote:If you want the best out of Ashton then pick Wigglesworth/Hodgson at halfback, and nick Duncan Taylor from Scotland .

I wouldn't be averse to the first two suggested, perhaps SL needs to have a word in CH's shell like and ask him to come back for a year to allow us to blood Ford.

Beshocked would be up in arms though, pinching both Sarries 10s, 12 and a 9.   

I would still get the jitters though if we needed a pressure kick in the last few minutes, I remember the Charlie of old.

It was a huge shame when Hodgson retired and I can certainly see why he did it. He was never going to be more than a bit-part player and being expected to spend that much time away with little prospect of being no.1 would kill anyone's desire.

I have to say I think Flood's decision went along the same lines. He didn't feel he was ever going to get past Farrell and with the offer of a lucrative contract took the chance, I can't say I blame him.

Quite what all the uproar about Nowell is I have no idea. Whilst I like the fact Ashton is unconventional for a wing the game plan just doesn't have room for that type of player. The likes of Wade, Yarde etc.. seem far more suited to what's trying to be implemented. That is wingers as wingers. The attempt is to try and create space wide rather than break through the middle and follow.

The only viable alternative I could conceive of would have been Strettle but he hasn't taken a single one of his chances under this regime. His last outing in Argentina was very disappointing. Aside from that I would've thought there'd be a huge brouhaha if Banahan was brought back in to the fold.

Hodgson unfortunately has never been a strong enough defender or good enough kicker at international level.

chjw131 the uproar with Nowell is that he's barely played any rugby and has scored no tries this season. Oh and many people want him to start vs France away - perhaps England's toughest and most important game in the 6 nations.

If it was Scotland/Italy at Twickenham I could understand such a gamble but in a match like this? No.

By the way I wouldn't pick Strettle.

beshocked wrote:the saint which other games are you referring to? Hardly the only player to make a defensive howler!

Well said PSW   

Dubbeloverate surely you shouldn't mention Nowell vs Ashton. In that game, Ashton tore through the Exeter defence to set up Ransom for the only try in the match.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/squads.php?player=98452&includeref=dynamic

He's played 5 matches. No tries. He hasn't faced North this season.

2 matches in the HC - both vs Toulon . No tries.

So basically Nowell's selection for England will be based on 7 matches where he has scored 0 tries.


Ashton has taken part in 8 AP matches - 4 tries and 6 HC matches with 7 tries.

Cumbrian you mentioned the U20 final. You stated it as an example of experience.

There is no point having Ashton on the bench Well past it. Either start Ashton or drop him completely.

Firstly it's not as nerve wracking because it's not in a huge stadium with lots of people watching, the stakes aren't as high, the quality of opposition is not as high, it's not your first cap for your country, you are playing with people with similar experience to yourself.

There are so many differences.

I quoted somebody else who mentioned it, the quote screwed up.

I agree it's not as nerve wracking as that, but it shouldn't simply be dismissed either. You seem to be coming from the point of view that there is no possible way that Nowell will be able to cope with the pressure or the quality of the opposition. How can you know that? I've already mentioned that other members of the current team got there first cap whilst inexperienced and have gone from strength to strength. Nowell seems like a confident lad who could do the same.

Also how are we ever going to blood players if we they can't play in big stadiums against high quality opposition? You could end up looking through the calendar and ruling out every game apart from one/ two games a year.

However, don't get me wrong. I'd prefer Yarde and/or Wade were fit for the game and would pick them ahead of Nowell every time now.

beshocked wrote:the saint which other games are you referring to? Hardly the only player to make a defensive howler!

Well said PSW   

Dubbeloverate surely you shouldn't mention Nowell vs Ashton. In that game, Ashton tore through the Exeter defence to set up Ransom for the only try in the match.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/squads.php?player=98452&includeref=dynamic

He's played 5 matches. No tries. He hasn't faced North this season.

2 matches in the HC - both vs Toulon . No tries.

So basically Nowell's selection for England will be based on 7 matches where he has scored 0 tries.


Ashton has taken part in 8 AP matches - 4 tries and 6 HC matches with 7 tries.

Cumbrian you mentioned the U20 final. You stated it as an example of experience.

There is no point having Ashton on the bench Well past it. Either start Ashton or drop him completely.

Firstly it's not as nerve wracking because it's not in a huge stadium with lots of people watching, the stakes aren't as high, the quality of opposition is not as high, it's not your first cap for your country, you are playing with people with similar experience to yourself.

There are so many differences.

In the home game against Toulon, Nowell ran for 90 metres, beat 7 defenders with 2 clean breaks(they must be cr@p tacklers, those European Champions). In the away game, he was pants, though - only 60 metres and 2 beaten defenders.

Jack's selection for the squad was based on those 7 games, but, if selected to play, it will be based on these two weeks of training.

For what it's worth, I'd have had Strettle in the training squad, with one of Nowell/Watson missing out, and I'd probably go with Ashton to start with May/Strettle on the other wing. The potential lack of experience otherwise is of concern.

Cumbrian I could equally ask - how do you know he'll cope? Based on a couple of matches?

I am saying that France away, for your first match in a crucial 6 nations game, in a new/inexperienced backline is tough.

Of course I could be wrong. He might have a stormer but surely there's a high element of throwing the dice and hoping it works out.

It's not trying out 1 or 2 new players - it's trying 3 and playing 1 out of position.

It could be as simple as him misjudging the bounce of a ball and allowing France to score a try because of his inexperience.

It's the 1st match in the 6 nations. It's important to build momentum.

New combinations will inevitably lead to errors surely? Is it worth taking that risk vs France away?


I want England to win hence why I am worried.

Dubbelyew L Overate wrote:

beshocked wrote:the saint which other games are you referring to? Hardly the only player to make a defensive howler!

Well said PSW   

Dubbeloverate surely you shouldn't mention Nowell vs Ashton. In that game, Ashton tore through the Exeter defence to set up Ransom for the only try in the match.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/squads.php?player=98452&includeref=dynamic

He's played 5 matches. No tries. He hasn't faced North this season.

2 matches in the HC - both vs Toulon . No tries.

So basically Nowell's selection for England will be based on 7 matches where he has scored 0 tries.


Ashton has taken part in 8 AP matches - 4 tries and 6 HC matches with 7 tries.

Cumbrian you mentioned the U20 final. You stated it as an example of experience.

There is no point having Ashton on the bench Well past it. Either start Ashton or drop him completely.

Firstly it's not as nerve wracking because it's not in a huge stadium with lots of people watching, the stakes aren't as high, the quality of opposition is not as high, it's not your first cap for your country, you are playing with people with similar experience to yourself.

There are so many differences.

In the home game against Toulon, Nowell ran for 90 metres, beat 7 defenders with 2 clean breaks(they must be cr@p tacklers, those European Champions). In the away game, he was pants, though - only 60 metres and 2 beaten defenders.

Jack's selection for the squad was based on those 7 games, but, if selected to play, it will be based on these two weeks of training.

For what it's worth, I'd have had Strettle in the training squad, with one of Nowell/Watson missing out, and I'd probably go with Ashton to start with May/Strettle on the other wing. The potential lack of experience otherwise is of concern.

By the way I am not against having Nowell in the squad. It's good for building experience, but no one can expect a rookie to hit the ground running against France with any confidence.

Those are good stats but back three do generally have high metres made. Beaten defenders is good. What was his defence like? Plus if he made 2 clean breaks - what happened - did he set someone up?

I sympathise beshocked I worry too. The injuries to Yarde and Wade have really hit England and I feel SL backed himself into a corner by not really sorting out his winger issues before this.

beshocked,

Chiefs lost both games against Toulon, so it was all in vain. No, he didn't have any Try Assists as I recall, Defence was OK, but the stats do show 2 missed tackles in each game.

By the way, I've just looked up stats for the Sarries-Chiefs game. 96 metres by Jack and 11 defenders beaten. Do your Sarries boys know how to tackle?

<Tongue-in-cheek-icon>

beshocked wrote:Cumbrian I could equally ask - how do you know he'll cope? Based on a couple of matches?

I am saying that France away, for your first match in a crucial 6 nations game, in a new/inexperienced backline is tough.

Of course I could be wrong. He might have a stormer but surely there's a high element of throwing the dice and hoping it works out.

It's not trying out 1 or 2 new players - it's trying 3 and playing 1 out of position.

It could be as simple as him misjudging the bounce of a ball and allowing France to score a try because of his inexperience.

It's the 1st match in the 6 nations. It's important to build momentum.

New combinations will inevitably lead to errors surely? Is it worth taking that risk vs France away?


I want England to win hence why I am worried.

Honest answer is I don't know, he could choke and bomb out, but we'll never know unless we give him a chance. None of his competitors are above making a mistake, experienced or not though. Ashton's defensive frailties have been shown up on a number of occasions, are these not also mistakes? How many chances does he get? How many missed tackles do we ignore? You're talking about a hypothetical situation for Nowell when we can actually point to the mistakes Ashton has made.

I'll not deny it's a tough game, but which are the easy ones? Say England played Ashton and lost to France anyway, you might be back on here telling me we couldn't play him against Scotland because the game is up in Murrayfield, it will be raining (probably) and the Scots will be hot for a victory over a vulnerable English team. Then you could argue that win or lose that game we can't start him against Ireland, because we're either back in the tournament or trying to avoid the wooden spoon. There are very few easy games in international rugby in my opinion and you've got to be bold.

Also, who says he is out of position if all of his senior rugby has been on the wing? Could he not be proficient in both positions?

I want England to win too, but I think the game will be won/ lost in other areas.

Agreed Cumbria. If England can shift the big french pack around and get them tired, make sure the English set piece provides a good platform and doesn't get bullied up front, then it's eminently winnable.

I am pretty surprised SL is going for Nowell Burrell and May while acknowledging Ahton is the best finsisher.....seems clear 10 man is the order of the day. It is now all about the french pack, because if France get their fair share of possession i can see this experiment going badly wrong for england

Alrighty then, this may turn out to be quite a long post so bear with me.

Beshocked, with regards to the whole comparing the U20s final to the France game, only you have made that comparison.  You said that Nowell hadn't performed in the big game and inferred that meant he can't play in big games, someone (Cumbrian perhaps?) said that he played very well in the U20s final which was a very big game for him.  So if you say that the u20s game is incomparable to the France game then so is the big game he played against Quins. Or, you can accept that they were both big games and in one he performed very well and in the other performed well (the stats back this up, and we all know how much you love rolling out stats).  

I've watched Nowell play as often as i can and he's a better option than Ashton atm for England.  He makes his tackles and is strong in contact, he can also beat defenders one on one, something which ashton seldom does.  If you watch him for Exeter you'd see that he still pops up in the midfield and carries across the gain line more often than not.  Against Toulon he was brilliant, and you could tell that he was the only player they were worried about.

For PSW, Beshocked and whoever else is worried about ruining players by throwing them in against France, i would say that by not playing them against France you would be more likely to ruin them.

Imagine the situation for them.  You've been performing well for your club in the league and HC, get called up to the squad, impress in training, be told that you're the number 1 player in your position.  Then comes the squad announcement and you're told you're not in because you don't have enough experience and that, essentially, the management don't trust you to perform.  

To help with the lack of experience i would look to the established players and in particular the half backs.  I'd start with Wigglesworth and Farrell and tell them to put us in the right areas of the pitch, once there we can use the attacking talents we have knowing that if we make an error its not going to be disastrous.  All the players are very solid in defence, of that there is little doubt and with the blitz defence we use they should just hammer everything in front of them.  May and Nowell on the wings will have to judge when to blitz properly but they are both good players and i trust them to do just fine.

I think by 'put us in the right areas of the pitch' means kick away possession....against France who traditionally are exceptional on the counter, or kick to inexperienced wingers. Not much of a gameplan.

Nowell may be stronger than Ashton but this is a whole new level and i think debuting these players against france is unnecessarily risky

It's happening so let's get behind them, Ashton isn't in the travelling squad nor is Ben Youngs infact.

England squad to travel to France (26)
Forwards (14)
David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Matt Mullan (London Wasps)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs (12)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Ho many caps in that back line?

If you are going to pick 1 cap on the wings then i think barritt will get the nod.

Scratch wrote:I think by 'put us in the right areas of the pitch' means kick away possession....against France who traditionally are exceptional on the counter, or kick to inexperienced wingers. Not much of a gameplan.

Nowell may be stronger than Ashton but this is a whole new level and i think debuting these players against france is unnecessarily risky

You can think that all you want Scratch but i don't recall saying "lets just quick the ball the back 3 and wait for them to run it back to us". You can kick into french territory and as long as the chase and kick are good, we can either tackle the french player who receives the ball, or get up there to prevent them from taking a quick line out. Or would you prefer us to just run the ball from everywhere on the pitch? On a cold and wet day.....

We have 2 options, play a player as bad as Ashton or play a player who could be as bad as him but could also be a hell of a lot better....

We've all seen Ashton flap at people trying to tackle them, we've seen him fumble balls into touch, throw the ball at players feet and also get upset when he isn't playing well (which unfortunately is now most of the time in an England shirt). We are already playing a player who has been consistently poor for England and now everyone is saying that we shouldn't be playing someone else because they MIGHT be poor? It can't get any worse!!!!

Cant wait.

Tough first game. But If we win a good run in.

belovedfrosties wrote:

Scratch wrote:I think by 'put us in the right areas of the pitch' means kick away possession....against France who traditionally are exceptional on the counter, or kick to inexperienced wingers. Not much of a gameplan.

Nowell may be stronger than Ashton but this is a whole new level and i think debuting these players against france is unnecessarily risky

You can think that all you want Scratch but i don't recall saying "lets just quick the ball the back 3 and wait for them to run it back to us".  You can kick into french territory and as long as the chase and kick are good, we can either tackle the french player who receives the ball, or get up there to prevent them from taking a quick line out.  Or would you prefer us to just run the ball from everywhere on the pitch?  On a cold and wet day.....

We have 2 options, play a player as bad as Ashton or play a player who could be as bad as him but could also be a hell of a lot better....

We've all seen Ashton flap at people trying to tackle them, we've seen him fumble balls into touch, throw the ball at players feet and also get upset when he isn't playing well (which unfortunately is now most of the time in an England shirt).  We are already playing a player who has been consistently poor for England and now everyone is saying that we shouldn't be playing someone else because they MIGHT be poor?  It can't get any worse!!!!

wow, someone's fired up and its only tuesday

spin it however you like, care/dickson and farrell 'putting it in the right areas' means kicking possession away to French backs, when your strength lies in your pack not the backs. England blitz French counter, France LOVE the chip chase……bad game plan, just saying.

But it matters not, England remember everything but learn nothing, they will play 10 man and IF the French pack fold then so will the team. That is the way to beat them, everything else is gravy.

Scratch wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:

Scratch wrote:I think by 'put us in the right areas of the pitch' means kick away possession....against France who traditionally are exceptional on the counter, or kick to inexperienced wingers. Not much of a gameplan.

Nowell may be stronger than Ashton but this is a whole new level and i think debuting these players against france is unnecessarily risky

You can think that all you want Scratch but i don't recall saying "lets just quick the ball the back 3 and wait for them to run it back to us".  You can kick into french territory and as long as the chase and kick are good, we can either tackle the french player who receives the ball, or get up there to prevent them from taking a quick line out.  Or would you prefer us to just run the ball from everywhere on the pitch?  On a cold and wet day.....

We have 2 options, play a player as bad as Ashton or play a player who could be as bad as him but could also be a hell of a lot better....

We've all seen Ashton flap at people trying to tackle them, we've seen him fumble balls into touch, throw the ball at players feet and also get upset when he isn't playing well (which unfortunately is now most of the time in an England shirt).  We are already playing a player who has been consistently poor for England and now everyone is saying that we shouldn't be playing someone else because they MIGHT be poor?  It can't get any worse!!!!

wow, someone's fired up and its only tuesday

spin it however you like, care/dickson and farrell 'putting it in the right areas' means kicking possession away to French backs, when your strength lies in your pack not the backs. England blitz French counter, France LOVE the chip chase……bad game plan, just saying.

But it matters not, England remember everything but learn nothing, they will play 10 man and IF the French pack fold then so will the team. That is the way to beat them, everything else is gravy.

Scratch, i've explained how you avoid/negate the dangers of the french counter whilst kicking, you can ignore it if you want but don't come back spouting the same thing. Our strength is in our pack thats true, we also have a decent line out, one that is capable of disrupting theirs. What do you think englands game plan should be? Pick and drive from our 22??

If France are likely to play chip and chase then having two wingers who can cover fullback but also have plenty of pace and step to counter with makes sense. Them being rapid will also help when it comes to the long aimless punt chases Farrell will provide for them.

It's Tony the tiger!   

Not sure why you are getting so upset, but if I am spouting then you are talking #$%%^&.

Firstly your suggestion regarding Wrigglesworth has been negated by recent events don't you think?

Secondly can you tell me where you have explained how to manage danger of french counter as i must have missed it, was it the bit about trusting them on the blitz?.

Blitz is massive high risk high reward and France, perhaps better than any side in the world, deal with it by chip chasing…..a rampaging back line just behind your blitz is not something England want to invite

And it is totally unnecessary with England's dominant pack…your pick and drive comment i obtuse but there is something in it….England have a strong set piece and i would suggest competing a french line out would be better advised than box kicks and territorial kicking.

Now, keep calm and carry on.   

France don't have the 10 to chip and chase and we do have the sweeper and 3 FBs to make it a stupid tactic. Would be worth blitzing just to goad them into trying it

Strange that England will effectively blood 3 newbies v one of the best rugby nations in europe, very uncharacteristic of SL to be so bold, yet he won't play Ford or bring Cipriani back into the fold….wonder why that is?

In fact, given that moving the ball through our centres is an issue, I'd say it's a valid gameplan

ChequeredJersey wrote:France don't have the 10 to chip and chase and we do have the sweeper and 3 FBs to make it a stupid tactic. Would be worth blitzing just to goad them into trying it

for real?   Good luck with that, Trinh Duc is back and Fofana and Dulin are 2 of the best counter attackers in European Rugby

What does counter attacking have to do with a chip and chase? And Trinh-duc, for his skills, is not the 10 I'd want to be in for creative kicking

Hey Lancaster has dropped Ashton, he has finally seen sense.
I think that Jack Nowell is going to be a very very good rugby player one day. A bit of magic about him. Everyone goes on about Yarde and Wade but I think Nowell looks the most promising, form what i've seen.

Scratch wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:France don't have the 10 to chip and chase and we do have the sweeper and 3 FBs to make it a stupid tactic. Would be worth blitzing just to goad them into trying it

for real?   Good luck with that, Trinh Duc is back and Fofana and Dulin are 2 of the best counter attackers in European Rugby

If you're going to say that of the French then surely you'd amplify the point for NZ?

Yet that is exactly the gameplan we have gone with in two meetings with NZ and done extremely well out of. Likewise the Saffas adopt similar tactics. If the chip and chase was the perpetual golden bullet for a blitz defence we'd never see a blitz D.

The chip and chase is fine but you need the space, technique and delay in order to even execute it. That is often negated by a defence like England's because a) they get to the line very quickly and b) have excellent sweeping scrum halves and FBs.

ChequeredJersey wrote:What does counter attacking have to do with a chip and chase? And Trinh-duc, for his skills, is not the 10 I'd want to be in for creative kicking

I was addressing 2 points, some posters can do this, first that France have an experienced 10 back in the fold, and second they have 2 of the best counterattacking backs in European rugby in Fofana and Dulin. So, i repeat, the chip and chase game is a French favourite and i expect to see them use it, second, if england kick away possession they will get punished.

Use touch, attack the setpiece, use your pack, driving maul.....its what england do....saying we have these new dynamoes in our backline so we are sorted if we kick for territory is ridiculous and such over confidence is likely to result in Le kicking in Le tete.

Scratch wrote:It's Tony the tiger!   

Not sure why you are getting so upset, but if I am spouting then you are talking #$%%^&.

Firstly your suggestion regarding Wrigglesworth has been negated by recent events don't you think?

Secondly can you tell me where you have explained how to manage danger of french counter as i must have missed it, was it the bit about trusting them on the blitz?.

Blitz is massive high risk high reward and France, perhaps better than any side in the world, deal with it by chip chasing…..a rampaging back line just behind your blitz is not something England want to invite

And it is totally unnecessary with England's dominant pack…your pick and drive comment i obtuse but there is something in it….England have a strong set piece and i would suggest competing a french line out would be better advised than box kicks and territorial kicking.

Now, keep calm and carry on.   

In my first reply to you scratch i wrote that with a good kicking game and chasers following up properly we could either tackle man and ball, or (when kicked to touch) have the chasers up there to prevent a quick lineout. You suggest that we should compete in the lineout but at the same time we shouldn't kick for territory. Tell me, how does one compete for an opposition lineout without kicking for territory? Incidentally, in my 2nd reply to you i talked about how we have a strong lineout and should aim to disrupt theirs. Seriously Scratch, do you actually bother to read what other people post?

Also, Wigglesworths dropping isn't particularly relevant. I'd start him because imo he's the best kicker and more of a general than the other 2, but it doesn't mean that they aren't capable of performing the same role.

belovedfrosties wrote:Incidentally, in my 2nd reply to you i talked about how we have a strong lineout and should aim to disrupt theirs.  

They had the worse of the lineout figures in their last 3 games and did badly against France last year. Without Croft theyve had a very poor return on challenging for opposition lineouts, and havent had a really solid one since Borthwicks days.

Its the one element of the pack thats been weak IMO.