France v England - Paris - 01/02/2014

First topic message reminder :

French XXIII

1. T Domingo 2. B Kayser 3. N Mas
4. A Flanquart 5. P Pape
6. Y Nyanga 7. B Le Roux 8. L Picamoles
9. J-M Doussin 10. J Plisson
12. W Fofana 13. M Basteraud
11. M Medard 15. B Dulin 14. Y Huget

16. D Sarzewski 17. Y Forestier 18. R Slimani 19. Y Maestri 20. A Burban 21. D Chouly 22. M Machenaud 23. G Fickou

England XXIII

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola
9. D Care
10. O Farrell
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. L Burrell
14. J Nowell
15. M Brown

16. T Youngs 17. M Vunipola 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. B Morgan 21. L Dickson 22. B Barritt 23. A Goode

belovedfrosties wrote:

Scratch wrote:It's Tony the tiger!   

Not sure why you are getting so upset, but if I am spouting then you are talking #$%%^&.

Firstly your suggestion regarding Wrigglesworth has been negated by recent events don't you think?

Secondly can you tell me where you have explained how to manage danger of french counter as i must have missed it, was it the bit about trusting them on the blitz?.

Blitz is massive high risk high reward and France, perhaps better than any side in the world, deal with it by chip chasing…..a rampaging back line just behind your blitz is not something England want to invite

And it is totally unnecessary with England's dominant pack…your pick and drive comment i obtuse but there is something in it….England have a strong set piece and i would suggest competing a french line out would be better advised than box kicks and territorial kicking.

Now, keep calm and carry on.   

In my first reply to you scratch i wrote that with a good kicking game and chasers following up properly we could either tackle man and ball, or (when kicked to touch) have the chasers up there to prevent a quick lineout.  You suggest that we should compete in the lineout but at the same time we shouldn't kick for territory.  Tell me, how does one compete for an opposition lineout without kicking for territory?  Incidentally, in my 2nd reply to you i talked about how we have a strong lineout and should aim to disrupt theirs.  Seriously Scratch, do you actually bother to read what other people post?

Also, Wigglesworths dropping isn't particularly relevant.  I'd start him because imo he's the best kicker and more of a general than the other 2, but it doesn't mean that they aren't capable of performing the same role.

Oh dear you've dropped your bundle again, not sure why you are getting in such a state before the game, by saturday you'll be a basket case. Do you even know what you are arguing about?

You kick for territory by not kicking in field...that's like rugby 101. With your kick chasers you then negate the counter. That's how to attack france, not by keeping it on the park against their backs. Perhaps we have been at cross purposes on that but that was what i mean't all along. england's main weapon is not surprise and fear but their bluddy pack.

And wrigglesworth dropping is very relevant as you used his selection as part of your gameplan suggestion this morning. Bad call, or at least SL thinks so.

Scratch wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:

Scratch wrote:It's Tony the tiger!   

Not sure why you are getting so upset, but if I am spouting then you are talking #$%%^&.

Firstly your suggestion regarding Wrigglesworth has been negated by recent events don't you think?

Secondly can you tell me where you have explained how to manage danger of french counter as i must have missed it, was it the bit about trusting them on the blitz?.

Blitz is massive high risk high reward and France, perhaps better than any side in the world, deal with it by chip chasing…..a rampaging back line just behind your blitz is not something England want to invite

And it is totally unnecessary with England's dominant pack…your pick and drive comment i obtuse but there is something in it….England have a strong set piece and i would suggest competing a french line out would be better advised than box kicks and territorial kicking.

Now, keep calm and carry on.   

In my first reply to you scratch i wrote that with a good kicking game and chasers following up properly we could either tackle man and ball, or (when kicked to touch) have the chasers up there to prevent a quick lineout.  You suggest that we should compete in the lineout but at the same time we shouldn't kick for territory.  Tell me, how does one compete for an opposition lineout without kicking for territory?  Incidentally, in my 2nd reply to you i talked about how we have a strong lineout and should aim to disrupt theirs.  Seriously Scratch, do you actually bother to read what other people post?

Also, Wigglesworths dropping isn't particularly relevant.  I'd start him because imo he's the best kicker and more of a general than the other 2, but it doesn't mean that they aren't capable of performing the same role.

Oh dear you've dropped your bundle again, not sure why you are getting in such a state before the game, by saturday you'll be a basket case. Do you even know what you are arguing about?

You kick for territory by not kicking in field...that's like rugby 101. With your kick chasers you then negate the counter. That's how to attack france, not by keeping it on the park against their backs. Perhaps we have been at cross purposes on that but that was what i mean't all along. england's main weapon is not surprise and fear but their bluddy pack.

And wrigglesworth dropping is very relevant as  you used his selection as part of your gameplan suggestion this morning. Bad call, or at least SL thinks so.

You really need to read what you write before posting Scratch.  In 2 sequential posts you have completely contradicted yourself, first you say that we shouldn't kick for territory but somehow manage to contest their lineouts.  Then start trying to condescend me by saying that rugby 101 is that you kick for territory by "not kicking in field" ie kicking off the pitch.  You're saying that we should contest their lineout but at the same time we shouldn't kick it off the pitch?

Glad you agree that we use our kick chasers to negate the counter, thats only something i've said in every single post bar my original......

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

belovedfrosties wrote:Incidentally, in my 2nd reply to you i talked about how we have a strong lineout and should aim to disrupt theirs.  

They had the worse of the lineout figures in their last 3 games and did badly against France last year. Without Croft theyve had a very poor return on challenging for opposition lineouts, and havent had a really solid one since Borthwicks days.

Its the one element of the pack thats been weak IMO.

This is true, though it went ok till Hartley went off in the AIs

Scratch wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:What does counter attacking have to do with a chip and chase? And Trinh-duc, for his skills, is not the 10 I'd want to be in for creative kicking

I was addressing 2 points, some posters can do this, first that France have an experienced 10 back in the fold, and second they have 2 of the best counterattacking backs in European rugby in Fofana and Dulin. So, i repeat, the chip and chase game is a French favourite and i expect to see them use it, second, if england kick away possession they will get punished.

Use touch, attack the setpiece, use your pack, driving maul.....its what england do....saying we have these new dynamoes in our backline so we are sorted if we kick for territory is ridiculous and such over confidence is likely to result in Le kicking in Le tete.

Do you understand what kicking for territory actually means? You have said we should use all of the elements of kicking for territory. Then said we can't kick for territory. And then said that kicking for territory would be in some way linked to our dynamos in our backline :o

The thing about our new backs is that they are all experienced at FB but still have 2 wingers. They are good at a kick return game. I am unconvinced you understand the concepts you are bandying about, sorry

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Scratch wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:What does counter attacking have to do with a chip and chase? And Trinh-duc, for his skills, is not the 10 I'd want to be in for creative kicking

I was addressing 2 points, some posters can do this, first that France have an experienced 10 back in the fold, and second they have 2 of the best counterattacking backs in European rugby in Fofana and Dulin. So, i repeat, the chip and chase game is a French favourite and i expect to see them use it, second, if england kick away possession they will get punished.

Use touch, attack the setpiece, use your pack, driving maul.....its what england do....saying we have these new dynamoes in our backline so we are sorted if we kick for territory is ridiculous and such over confidence is likely to result in Le kicking in Le tete.

Do you understand what kicking for territory actually means? You have said we should use all of the elements of kicking for territory. Then said we can't kick for territory. And then said that kicking for territory would be in some way linked to our dynamos in our backline :o

The thing about our new backs is that they are all experienced at FB but still have 2 wingers. They are good at a kick return game. I am unconvinced you understand the concepts you are bandying about, sorry

No, I don't believe he does. I understand the term 'putting in the right areas', but then again I have actually played the game and going by your retorts it sounds like you guys have too.
The last time England won in Paris was because they did play in the right area's and won the breakdown, if I remember rightly. Also I can't picture France running it back at England from their own 22 and scoring tries , it hardly ever happens in the Top14 (from French players that is).

Especially not in the Wee weeing rain on one of the dodgiest turfs in rugby...


Anyway, we'll see what the actual 23 is then worry from there. Maybe France will turn up and merc us but if they really turn up then our plan might not matter anyway.

Good luck vs Italy, Saint. Hopefully both teams will head into the Wales-Eng match with the result really mattering again but the 6N is tough as we could definitely lose or easily win any of our games. But I reaaaaaally want to see revenge for last year.

Good luck and thanks for talking some sense to your compatriot

The Saint wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Scratch wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:What does counter attacking have to do with a chip and chase? And Trinh-duc, for his skills, is not the 10 I'd want to be in for creative kicking

I was addressing 2 points, some posters can do this, first that France have an experienced 10 back in the fold, and second they have 2 of the best counterattacking backs in European rugby in Fofana and Dulin. So, i repeat, the chip and chase game is a French favourite and i expect to see them use it, second, if england kick away possession they will get punished.

Use touch, attack the setpiece, use your pack, driving maul.....its what england do....saying we have these new dynamoes in our backline so we are sorted if we kick for territory is ridiculous and such over confidence is likely to result in Le kicking in Le tete.

Do you understand what kicking for territory actually means? You have said we should use all of the elements of kicking for territory. Then said we can't kick for territory. And then said that kicking for territory would be in some way linked to our dynamos in our backline :o

The thing about our new backs is that they are all experienced at FB but still have 2 wingers. They are good at a kick return game. I am unconvinced you understand the concepts you are bandying about, sorry

No, I don't believe he does. I understand the term 'putting in the right areas', but then again I have actually played the game and going by your retorts it sounds like you guys have too.
The last time England won in Paris was because they did play in the right area's and won the breakdown, if I remember rightly. Also I can't picture France running it back at England from their own 22 and scoring tries , it hardly ever happens in the Top14 (from French players that is).

Dulin and Fofana are exceptional at counter attacking.

maestegmafia wrote:

The Saint wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Scratch wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:What does counter attacking have to do with a chip and chase? And Trinh-duc, for his skills, is not the 10 I'd want to be in for creative kicking

I was addressing 2 points, some posters can do this, first that France have an experienced 10 back in the fold, and second they have 2 of the best counterattacking backs in European rugby in Fofana and Dulin. So, i repeat, the chip and chase game is a French favourite and i expect to see them use it, second, if england kick away possession they will get punished.

Use touch, attack the setpiece, use your pack, driving maul.....its what england do....saying we have these new dynamoes in our backline so we are sorted if we kick for territory is ridiculous and such over confidence is likely to result in Le kicking in Le tete.

Do you understand what kicking for territory actually means? You have said we should use all of the elements of kicking for territory. Then said we can't kick for territory. And then said that kicking for territory would be in some way linked to our dynamos in our backline :o

The thing about our new backs is that they are all experienced at FB but still have 2 wingers. They are good at a kick return game. I am unconvinced you understand the concepts you are bandying about, sorry

No, I don't believe he does. I understand the term 'putting in the right areas', but then again I have actually played the game and going by your retorts it sounds like you guys have too.
The last time England won in Paris was because they did play in the right area's and won the breakdown, if I remember rightly. Also I can't picture France running it back at England from their own 22 and scoring tries , it hardly ever happens in the Top14 (from French players that is).

Dulin and Fofana are exceptional at counter attacking.

Nobody was suggesting kicking it to France's back 3 though, and brilliant or not the conditions on Saturday are meant to be non-conducive to counter-attacking. And Scratch's linking counter attacking ability with why we should fear the chip and chase was just crazy

ChequeredJersey wrote:

maestegmafia wrote:

The Saint wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Scratch wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:What does counter attacking have to do with a chip and chase? And Trinh-duc, for his skills, is not the 10 I'd want to be in for creative kicking

I was addressing 2 points, some posters can do this, first that France have an experienced 10 back in the fold, and second they have 2 of the best counterattacking backs in European rugby in Fofana and Dulin. So, i repeat, the chip and chase game is a French favourite and i expect to see them use it, second, if england kick away possession they will get punished.

Use touch, attack the setpiece, use your pack, driving maul.....its what england do....saying we have these new dynamoes in our backline so we are sorted if we kick for territory is ridiculous and such over confidence is likely to result in Le kicking in Le tete.

Do you understand what kicking for territory actually means? You have said we should use all of the elements of kicking for territory. Then said we can't kick for territory. And then said that kicking for territory would be in some way linked to our dynamos in our backline :o

The thing about our new backs is that they are all experienced at FB but still have 2 wingers. They are good at a kick return game. I am unconvinced you understand the concepts you are bandying about, sorry

No, I don't believe he does. I understand the term 'putting in the right areas', but then again I have actually played the game and going by your retorts it sounds like you guys have too.
The last time England won in Paris was because they did play in the right area's and won the breakdown, if I remember rightly. Also I can't picture France running it back at England from their own 22 and scoring tries , it hardly ever happens in the Top14 (from French players that is).

Dulin and Fofana are exceptional at counter attacking.

Nobody was suggesting kicking it to France's back 3 though, and brilliant or not the conditions on Saturday are meant to be non-conducive to counter-attacking. And Scratch's linking counter attacking ability with why we should fear the chip and chase was just crazy

Cant comment I dont read Scratch's posts...!

There are some extremely good lads in that French team this is going to be a hell of a game despite the impending weather. Jules Plisson could have a very big impact if they pick him over Trinh-Duc.

Even with injuries, man for man France have the better team and home advantage. England should struggle, but England do seem to have some sort of voodoo magic on the French when they play them in Paris.

We've only lost to the french twice in the last 8 encounters in the 6N, both times that was after a Lions tour......

Isn't it after a Lions Tour now, though? Admittedly we didn't have many players there and fit now...

And people say that the lions is good for the home nations??

Its good for the coffers of the SH teams involved - Its good for the fans of all nations.. But not sure I am sold that its good for us individually.

Anyway I know that is a different deabte. Hopefully we can turn the pattern this time around and get the win

mystiroakey wrote:And people say that the lions is good for the home nations??

Its good for the coffers of the SH teams involved - Its good for the fans of all nations.. But not sure I am sold that its good for us individually.

Anyway I know that is a different deabte. Hopefully we can turn the pattern this time around and get the win

If anyone should be able to cope with the after effects of a Lions tour it's England. We have the player pool to negate most of the injuries and fatigue. I would argue that the only Lion missing who'll really hamper England is Tuilagi.

Outside of that Lawes in for Parling is seen by many as an upgrade, likewise Attwood on the bench. Tom Youngs' form did dip but Hartley has stepped up so far this season and he could feasibly be replaced by Webber without too much heartache.

Ben Youngs wasn't particularly great even on the Lions tour and Care has outshone him this season. Corbs is a loss but both Marler and Mako V have looked in fine form. If Mako V were out there's Mullan and Waller, which would be a drop off in all round quality but manageable.

well yes I suppose our SH results were good enough to show we were not affected anyway.

France are going to be missing Dusautoir badly. That could be crucial. It breaks up the potential potent backrow of Nyanga,Dusatoir,Picamoles (which is the Toulouse backrow) which was so effective vs Sarries but also robs France of their captain. When you break up any backrow unit it harms the team as a whole.

It means that France have to replace Dusautoir which a much less experienced player too.

beshocked wrote:France are going to be missing Dusautoir badly. That could be crucial.  It breaks up the potential potent backrow of Nyanga,Dusatoir,Picamoles (which is the Toulouse backrow) which was so effective vs Sarries but also robs France of their captain. When you break up any backrow unit it harms the team as a whole.

It means that France have to replace Dusautoir which a much less experienced player too.

Agreed, Chouly looks a good player though and he is versatile. Lauret had a storming autumn as well I thought.

Chouly prefers playing 8 though, non? And can't get a start for Clermont?

chjw131 I will have to bow to your superior knowledge on the topic. I don't know enough about the French backrow options other than the usual suspects of Nyanga and Picamole.

I just feel that it could be the equivalent of England losing Wood or Robshaw.

Agree it's a big blow losing one of the world's best opensides.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Especially not in the Wee weeing rain on one of the dodgiest turfs in rugby...


Anyway, we'll see what the actual 23 is then worry from there. Maybe France will turn up and merc us but if they really turn up then our plan might not matter anyway.

Good luck vs Italy, Saint. Hopefully both teams will head into the Wales-Eng match with the result really mattering again but the 6N is tough as we could definitely lose or easily win any of our games. But I reaaaaaally want to see revenge for last year.

Good luck and thanks for talking some sense to your compatriot

Cheers CJ. Actually I don't expect France will turn up, and I think England will win. They play with such confidence against the French. I've noticed in the fixtures between these 2, that the away team usually plays a lot better than they would do at home. Maybe they step it up a notch?

I know you'd like revenge for Cardiff last year, but I can't picture you guys breaking the hoodoo just yet .

Saint "I know you'd like revenge for Cardiff last year, but I can't picture you guys breaking the hoodoo just yet" do you always wear dark glasses in winter.

No, I wear red ones.

  

Stuart Lancaster in a recent interview admitted that now is the time, this years championship, for bringing through new faces. reading between the lines it seemed that he is almost prepared to sacrifice any championship win in favour of blooding new players and getting the squad depth and experience right.

I think that given he has in general improved English rugby quite a bit both in terms of results but also organisation and dicipline I feel he has earned the right to use this championship to take one step back in order to take two forward. Its been a while since an England manager had that luxury.

Does anyone else think that England might be slightly less effective as last year as a result?

I don't see this as Lancaster "sacrificing the championship in favour of blooding new players" - who has been left out that deserves to start??

I hardly think ditching Ashton for Watson qualifies as sacrifcing anything, and he's been clear that Care for Youngs is purely down to form. Otherwise it seems to be first choice everywhere other than injured players missing out.

The team hasnt been selected yet I thought? According to the below linked article there will be two debutants in a fairly new back line:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/10601074/Six-Nations-2014-England-to-start-with-two-debutants-and-no-Chris-Ashton-in-new-backline-against-France.html

Twelvetrees and Burrell in the centres
Nowell and May on the wings
Presumably Farrell 10, Care 9 and Brown 15

Will this be the back line? If so its very green.

GunsGerms wrote:Stuart Lancaster in a recent interview admitted that now is the time, this years championship, for bringing through new faces. reading between the lines it seemed that he is almost prepared to sacrifice any championship win in favour of blooding new players and getting the squad depth and experience right.

I think that given he has in general improved English rugby quite a bit both in terms of results but also organisation and dicipline I feel he has earned the right to use this championship to take one step back in order to take two forward. Its been a while since an England manager had that luxury.

Does anyone else think that England might be slightly less effective as last year as a result?

My argument would be that hes getting his squad depth and experience wrong. England have a huge pool of capped players now, but very few with any experience. Their Age profile is hugely skewed toward the youth end.
All that will happen is we see more players like Flood looking over their shoulders in their mid twenties rather than early 30s and quitting even when they are still needed for the squad if not the first 15.

Also the EPS needs to focus more on developing players beyond initial promise and actually building a team.
Lancatser has had two years of chopping and changing, the revolving door still seems to be fully in action. We have seen 3 scrum halves rotated on whim. Theres barely any positions that are settled outside of the pack and fly half only by default having driven the the player he used to flip flop over to take the easy euros in France.

Players are given a couple of caps in their early twenties then chucked in a pool of "extended squad".
Maybe focusing on a core group and working in detail with individuals might bear better fruit than ditching people every set of internationals.

Having such a big player pool seems to have become a burden on England., Its far too easy for them to turn their back on players and not expend the effort continuing to developing them past 2 or anything resembling a real squad who actually have spent time playing together and developing an understanding.

GunsGerms wrote:Twelvetrees and Burrell in the centres
Nowell and May on the wings
Presumably Farrell 10, Care 9 and Brown 15

Will this be the back line? If so its very green.

Barritt starting could be a way to make it less green, otherwise the only options would be Ashton on wing (his dropping been coming for a while now...) or Brown there with Goode at FB (really not ideal). So not much choice, partially because of injuries and partially because we didn't drop Ashton/Brown and blood a winger any sooner!

GunsGerms wrote:The team hasnt been selected yet I thought? According to the below linked article there will be two debutants in a fairly new back line:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/sixnations/10601074/Six-Nations-2014-England-to-start-with-two-debutants-and-no-Chris-Ashton-in-new-backline-against-France.html

Yep most likely as the one you listed on your next post.

The point being that May only has one cap, twelvetrees 8, Farrell 20, Brown 21, and Care 42 (most as a replacement)

The bench is hardly likely to be busting with caps either, especially if Ford and Watson are included.

GunsGerms wrote:Twelvetrees and Burrell in the centres
Nowell and May on the wings
Presumably Farrell 10, Care 9 and Brown 15

Will this be the back line? If so its very green.

More by luck (or bad luck) than judgment though GG. I agree that he's done a lot for English rugby considering the poor showing in RWC 2011 but had we not had our a/?% handed to us by the Irish in 6N 2011 then the results even pre-Lancaster are comparable.

What this team and indeed all the teams since '03 have struggled with is moving on. Taking that next step to be consistently one of the world's best. That doesn't come overnight but it does need some clear coaching philosophy and willingness to take risks.

In my opinion we're getting there, the foundations are far better but in reality this team is three to four seasons away from getting to that stage and some might argue an attack coach. The pack is looking better and better and the France game is the best pack and bench i've seen for England in a long while. The whole mechanics of the back-line look a long way from that though.

Is it fair to say that Ashton's loss of form has coincided with Flood's omission from the team. Flood played flatter and made more breaks by which Ashton made a name for himself by usually being the man in support. With Farrell Ashton has less opportunity to finish moves and his strength is in good supporting lines and using his pace to finish well rather than creating opportunities for his team mates which is probably what England need now.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Twelvetrees and Burrell in the centres
Nowell and May on the wings
Presumably Farrell 10, Care 9 and Brown 15

Will this be the back line? If so its very green.

Barritt starting could be a way to make it less green, otherwise the only options would be Ashton on wing (his dropping been coming for a while now...) or Brown there with Goode at FB (really not ideal). So not much choice, partially because of injuries and partially because we  didn't drop Ashton/Brown and blood a winger any sooner!

Theyve blooded May, Wade, Yarde and Joseph who could play wing fairly recently as well as playing Foden there.....how many more do they need? Sharples appears to have been written off at 24 as past it.
Ok most managed to get themselves injured at the same time but theres top try scorers like Strettle and Ashton available to play in those spots. The assumption has to be its pretty unlikely they will all fall apart at the same time again any time soon.
Instead we have a kid

non official french XV out (according to some inside info from l'equipe):

Domingo, Kayser, Mas
Flanquart, Papé
Le Roux, Nyanga, Picamoles
9 Doussain,10 Plisson
Huget, Bastareaud, Fofana, Medart
Dulin

1st cap for Plisson at 10 with the not so experienced Doussain at 9...going to be interesting but at least both can kick!
the forward pack lacks a bit of grunt and raw power but is mobile and has more line out options than usual (obviously Flanquart but also Nyanga and Le Roux).

Just found out that Jack Nowell was born in the same as place as me and went to the same college as well.

Truro to Paris, with Exeter in between, I'm sure the lad will be fine!

whocares wrote:non official french XV out (according to some inside info from l'equipe):

Domingo,  Kayser, Mas
Flanquart, Papé
Le Roux, Nyanga, Picamoles
9 Doussain,10  Plisson
Huget, Bastareaud, Fofana, Medart
Dulin

1st cap for Plisson at 10 with the not so experienced Doussain at 9...going to be interesting but at least both can kick!
the forward pack lacks a bit of grunt and raw power but is mobile and has more line out options than usual (obviously Flanquart but also Nyanga and Le Roux).

Is that Fofana- 12 and Bast - 13 or Fofana -13 and Bast -12?

whocares wrote:non official french XV out (according to some inside info from l'equipe):

Domingo,  Kayser, Mas
Flanquart, Papé
Le Roux, Nyanga, Picamoles
9 Doussain,10  Plisson
Huget, Bastareaud, Fofana, Medart
Dulin

1st cap for Plisson at 10 with the not so experienced Doussain at 9...going to be interesting but at least both can kick!
the forward pack lacks a bit of grunt and raw power but is mobile and has more line out options than usual (obviously Flanquart but also Nyanga and Le Roux).

When you say both can kick do you mean both are reliable goal kickers?
The center partnership has to be their trump card, especially with Englands backs barely knowing each others names let alone where each should be defending. If those guys turn up at their best England are in trouble through the middle.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:...

Theyve blooded May, Wade, Yarde and Joseph who could play wing fairly recently as well as playing Foden there.....how many more do they need? Sharples appears to have been written off at 24 as past it.
Ok most managed to get themselves injured at the same time but theres top try scorers like Strettle and Ashton available to play in those spots. The assumption has to be its pretty unlikely they will all fall apart at the same time again any time soon.
Instead we have a kid

All of the first list apart from May are out with injury. Sharples has indeed slipped way down the pecking order but was at least in the Saxons. Strettle, for a whole bunch of reasons hasnt fulfilled the early potential he showed a few years back, and as for Ashton it just seems we cant live with or without him.

Big danger, more than any backs, there for me is the front row. Cole doesn't like scrummaging against Domingo, who I think is the best scrummaging LH in the world bar maybe Ayerza, and is fit and in decent nick. Mas is another good scrummager in good form and could trouble Marler. If both get an edge over our props, we could be in for a long day in the rain

I heard Gaël Fickou would start in the centre.

Duty281 wrote:Just found out that Jack Nowell was born in the same as place as me and went to the same college as well.

Truro to Paris, with Exeter in between, I'm sure the lad will be fine!

Join the club! (Bar Newlyn that is!)

GunsGerms wrote:Twelvetrees and Burrell in the centres
Nowell and May on the wings
Presumably Farrell 10, Care 9 and Brown 15

Will this be the back line? If so its very green.

You've missed the point.

You were suggesting that Lancaster was "sacrificing" the tournament to blood young players, suggesting therefore that he wasn't picking his best XV.

I disagree. The question is who in his squad of 26 is not there, but yet is fit and on better form and someone who is in there?

It may be down to injuries that so many inexperienced players are in the mix (and also the impressive form of the newer players), but I think Lancaster is picking his best players. I don't think there's any element of sacrifice involved.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Twelvetrees and Burrell in the centres
Nowell and May on the wings
Presumably Farrell 10, Care 9 and Brown 15

Will this be the back line? If so its very green.

Barritt starting could be a way to make it less green, otherwise the only options would be Ashton on wing (his dropping been coming for a while now...) or Brown there with Goode at FB (really not ideal). So not much choice, partially because of injuries and partially because we  didn't drop Ashton/Brown and blood a winger any sooner!

Theyve blooded May, Wade, Yarde and Joseph who could play wing fairly recently as well as playing Foden there.....how many more do they need? Sharples appears to have been written off at 24 as past it.
Ok most managed to get themselves injured at the same time but theres top try scorers like Strettle and Ashton available to play in those spots. The assumption has to be its pretty unlikely they will all fall apart at the same time again any time soon.
Instead we have a kid

That's just such an incomplete and misleading answer I don't know where to start.

Wade, Yarde and Joseph are all injured and calling for an OC to play wing who has barely a handful of caps anyway is hardly the elixir is it?! Further, it just contradicts your argument.

Strettle hasn't performed in an England shirt since Wales away in 2007. His showing for Argentina, where he was given another chance on the left wing was pretty poor all round combined with a some below-par showings under Lancs previously.

Foden is also injured and would more than likely be playing 11 in France if he weren't. He has actually played pretty well there on the odd occasion for England, notably against SA. So he's certainly not out of the mix neither are the others you've mentioned.

Ashton is at a stage where he either needs dropping or sticking with until his tackling technique changes. Dropping him will hopefully give him the incentive to attack that one aspect of his game properly. He's certainly not out of the squad.

It just seems you're residually bitter about Flood leaving. That's not really England's fault. Yes i'd have preferred him to Farrell in some games but frankly he's never nailed down the England 10 shirt over nearly 60 caps. He's had several games where he's looked clueless if England aren't on the front foot.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

whocares wrote:non official french XV out (according to some inside info from l'equipe):

Domingo,  Kayser, Mas
Flanquart, Papé
Le Roux, Nyanga, Picamoles
9 Doussain,10  Plisson
Huget, Bastareaud, Fofana, Medart
Dulin

1st cap for Plisson at 10 with the not so experienced Doussain at 9...going to be interesting but at least both can kick!
the forward pack lacks a bit of grunt and raw power but is mobile and has more line out options than usual (obviously Flanquart but also Nyanga and Le Roux).

Is that Fofana- 12 and Bast - 13 or Fofana -13 and Bast -12?

sorry fofana 12 and bastareaud 13 . also wingers might not be in the right place.

PSW : I meant both 9 and 10 are reliable kickers...for french standart that is (they are no farrel)

GG, this team might not be the right one (it is meant to be a leak)

ChequeredJersey wrote:Big danger, more than any backs, there for me is the front row. Cole doesn't like scrummaging against Domingo, who I think is the best scrummaging LH in the world bar maybe Ayerza, and is fit and in decent nick. Mas is another good scrummager in good form and could trouble Marler. If both get an edge over our props, we could be in for a long day in the rain

I think that's because we have small props (they tend to do well against the bigger units as they are more stable, low centre of gravity).

whocares wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

whocares wrote:non official french XV out (according to some inside info from l'equipe):

Domingo,  Kayser, Mas
Flanquart, Papé
Le Roux, Nyanga, Picamoles
9 Doussain,10  Plisson
Huget, Bastareaud, Fofana, Medart
Dulin

1st cap for Plisson at 10 with the not so experienced Doussain at 9...going to be interesting but at least both can kick!
the forward pack lacks a bit of grunt and raw power but is mobile and has more line out options than usual (obviously Flanquart but also Nyanga and Le Roux).

Is that Fofana- 12 and Bast - 13 or Fofana -13 and Bast -12?

sorry fofana 12 and bastareaud 13 . also wingers might not be in the right place.

PSW : I meant both 9 and 10 are reliable kickers...for french standart that is (they are no farrel)

GG, this team might not be the right one (it is meant to be a leak)

Damn, I was hoping for a crazy centre-switch

The concern is the sudden change in tack by Stewie – from more conservative than Farage to more radical than Lievremont. It’s either a stroke of genius or a man out of his depth. It looks like he’s spent the last couple of years developing a decent pack, and really only concerning himself with the defensive aspect of the backs - to now working big-time on the three-quarters. It’s a high risk gamble; with only a year or so til the RWC, if it goes puddings-up (and we fail to get out of our group) he’ll be out of a job before his plans bear fruit. And it is the RWC that counts, not this 6N.

However, although he can be accused of working mostly with the pack and ignoring the development of the backs, right now his choices are limited. Manu out, Brad just back from injury and fighting it out with 12T, and no one else with experience or form at 12/13. So centre was always going to be difficult until Manu returns.

It’s the back 3 that he’s ignored to his peril – with Ashton arguably retained for too long, his error in thinking that a wing and FB are the same thing (where pace is optional)... But even here he was kicked in the noots with both his new choices picking up long-term injuries. And sticking with players who are just average (Strettle, Sharples, Tomkins, JJ?) is accepting we’ll never win a RWC again. Who’d be a test coach!?

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The concern is the sudden change in tack by Stewie – from more conservative than Farage to more radical than Lievremont. It’s either a stroke of genius or a man out of his depth. It looks like he’s spent the last couple of years developing a decent pack, and really only concerning himself with the defensive aspect of the backs - to now working big-time on the three-quarters. It’s a high risk gamble; with only a year or so til the RWC, if it goes puddings-up (and we fail to get out of our group) he’ll be out of a job before his plans bear fruit. And it is the RWC that counts, not this 6N.

However, although he can be accused of working mostly with the pack and ignoring the development of the backs, right now his choices are limited. Manu out, Brad just back from injury and fighting it out with 12T, and no one else with experience or form at 12/13. So centre was always going to be difficult until Manu returns.

It’s the back 3 that he’s ignored to his peril – with Ashton arguably retained for too long, his error in thinking that a wing and FB are the same thing (where pace is optional)... But even here he was kicked in the noots with both his new choices picking up long-term injuries. And sticking with players who are just average (Strettle, Sharples, Tomkins, JJ?) is accepting we’ll never win a RWC again. Who’d be a test coach!?

Precisely, who on earth would be a Test coach?! If we were going into this game with the following backline (on form!) I think we'd all be a lot happier:

9. B Youngs
10. O Farrell
11. M Yarde
12. B Twelvetrees
13. M Tuilagi
14. C Wade
15. M Brown

21. D Care 22. G Ford 23. J May

Having said that it's not like either Wade or Yarde have played proper Test rugby yet! The issue is that by focusing so much on RWC 2015 he's made a rod for his own back. To get the right team together from such a poor base of experience in 2012 it was always going to be a big ask and everything would've had to have gone his way.

If he'd have said look it's a side in need of huge development and judge us on a run of results there may not be this hysteria about.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:The concern is the sudden change in tack by Stewie – from more conservative than Farage to more radical than Lievremont. It’s either a stroke of genius or a man out of his depth. It looks like he’s spent the last couple of years developing a decent pack, and really only concerning himself with the defensive aspect of the backs - to now working big-time on the three-quarters.

Except hes now just picked his 3/4 based on their tackling ability. He also made it clear that it was continuing concerns regarding that aspect of Ciprianis play that kept him out of the EPS.


He may well be right, having a defensive system that relies on your wingers having a high tackle count might be the world cup winning formula.
I just find it depressing hes lauded for doing exactly the opposite of what people think hes doing.

May isn't there because of his tackling. You could say that the right winger will be but on Ashton's current form they may well add more in attack. Brown is is the in form full back. Yarde and Wade would be involved because of what they can do with the ball as well.

I don't think he's picked his wings purely based on tackling ability