France v England - Paris - 01/02/2014

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French XXIII

1. T Domingo 2. B Kayser 3. N Mas
4. A Flanquart 5. P Pape
6. Y Nyanga 7. B Le Roux 8. L Picamoles
9. J-M Doussin 10. J Plisson
12. W Fofana 13. M Basteraud
11. M Medard 15. B Dulin 14. Y Huget

16. D Sarzewski 17. Y Forestier 18. R Slimani 19. Y Maestri 20. A Burban 21. D Chouly 22. M Machenaud 23. G Fickou

England XXIII

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola
9. D Care
10. O Farrell
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. L Burrell
14. J Nowell
15. M Brown

16. T Youngs 17. M Vunipola 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. B Morgan 21. L Dickson 22. B Barritt 23. A Goode

Disagree fa0019. Lawes is the man for the job. He's very effective at roughing up 10s.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-FbYYhje_5M


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iUDIkvudbTk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKmm-Y_m_W8

Good at roughing up 9s too.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAB9jlyE7Q4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rbDvGF5O6mg

beshocked wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'll never understand the French selection policy. They pick a 22-year old rookie at fly-half, with absolutely no back-up. Not saying Plisson isn't a fine player, he's looked very good whenever I've seen him this year, but a bloke getting his first cap at FH against England can't expect an easy time of it, and there's no knowing how he'll respond (he hasn't even played any HC rugby yet). Imagine if he goes to pieces? The only option then is to put Doussain at FH, which frankly is a silly idea.

Still at least they haven't picked three FBs in the back three. Oh wait...

I must say I'm surprised they haven't renewed the "Fofana is our best centre by a country mile, so let's stick him on the wing" experiment.

Having said that, the pack, even without Dusautoir, looks fairly formidable, so we can expect a brutal contest up front.

I underestimated Doussain once. I will not do so again. I thought he played very well vs Sarries and that was as 10.

Yeah but then they have to bring on Machenaud who is being kept out at Metro of all places by an out of sorts Phillips of all people

Mad for Chelsea wrote:nope, road is "rue"

"roux" is ginger (the colour)

Going in for the kill there   

ChequeredJersey wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:I'll never understand the French selection policy. They pick a 22-year old rookie at fly-half, with absolutely no back-up. Not saying Plisson isn't a fine player, he's looked very good whenever I've seen him this year, but a bloke getting his first cap at FH against England can't expect an easy time of it, and there's no knowing how he'll respond (he hasn't even played any HC rugby yet). Imagine if he goes to pieces? The only option then is to put Doussain at FH, which frankly is a silly idea.

Still at least they haven't picked three FBs in the back three. Oh wait...

I must say I'm surprised they haven't renewed the "Fofana is our best centre by a country mile, so let's stick him on the wing" experiment.

Having said that, the pack, even without Dusautoir, looks fairly formidable, so we can expect a brutal contest up front.

I underestimated Doussain once. I will not do so again. I thought he played very well vs Sarries and that was as 10.

Yeah but then they have to bring on Machenaud who is being kept out at Metro of all places by an out of sorts Phillips of all people

Fair enough. France will probably be worried about Lawes- the halfback mangler.

So England have gone with a very inexperienced team to start - 286 caps in total, with just another 85 to come on off the bench. Quite a gamble by Lancaster.

Congrats Jack Nowell - v proud of your achievement #sh1tlid

Got to hope that Cole or Farrell don't pick up an early injury.....

Win the front row battle, win the game. Yes yes, that's every rugby game, but if we have back foot ball then we will not win in France.

Agree with Lawes having to target the half back combo, that could be intense.

Not a single Toulon player in the entire French match-day 23.

Anyone else find that hilarious?

Is there any french players in the toulon side?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Is there any french players in the toulon side?

Monsieur Wilkeeeenson?
Matt Giteau?
Bakkies LeBotha?

France: Brice Dulin (Castres); Yoann Huget (Toulouse), Mathieu Bastareaud (Toulon), Wesley Fofana (Clermont Auvergne), Maxime Medard (Toulouse); Jules Plisson (Stade Francais), Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse); Thomas Domingo (Clermont Auvergne), Benjamin Kayser (Clermont Auvergne), Nicolas Mas (Montpellier), Alexandre Flanquart (Stade Francais), Pascal Pape (Stade Francais, capt), Yannick Nyanga (Toulouse), Bernard Le Roux (Racing Metro), Louis Picamoles (Toulouse).
Replacements: Dimitri Szarzewski (RacingMetro), Yannick Forestier (Castres), Rabah Slimani (Stade Francais), Yoann Maestri (Toulouse), Antoie Burban (Stade Francais), Damien Chouly (Clermont Auvergne), Maxime Machenaud (Racing Metro), Gael Fickou (Toulouse)

That's a good team on paper.

The back line could really play well. Brice Dulin is magic on the counter, quick, great vision and reads the game well, Pillson is have an awesome first season at Stade...!

Fofana we all know about, Basteraud has been in fantastic form, attack and defence, enjoying the counter and could be great with Fofana and Dulin around him.

Marchenaud has been the encumbrance nine at Metro, Phollips has only had a few games.

Man for man the two teams have little between them. France should edge this with home advantage and a more talented backline.

Given that it's going to be up front that this battle is won or lost what is the French pack actually like? The front row, as we know is an excellent scrummaging unit but how has Mas been going recently?

Pape isn't a bad lock but i've never really rated Maestri that highly, what's Flanquart like?

In the back row I know nothing of Le Roux, how's he been performing?

From an England perspective there's not a lot i'd change about the pack, perhaps Attwood into the pack on a wet night but otherwise it's a top pack. Corbisiero obviously, and Wilson on the bench instead of Thomas.

If we win, great it means we can start really moving forward. If we get munched then it's worrying because there's nowhere else to go!

Chjw131 wrote:
, what's Flanquart like?

I cant help thinking he should be playing 6 or 7

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:
, what's Flanquart like?

I cant help thinking he should be playing 6 or 7

And look like Rik Mayall in Blackadder II?!

Better than looking like Baldrick

Barney McGrew did it wrote:Better than looking like Baldrick

Now look, we've been through this. You're very handsome in your own right.

Chjw131 wrote:Given that it's going to be up front that this battle is won or lost what is the French pack actually like? The front row, as we know is an excellent scrummaging unit but how has Mas been going recently?

Pape isn't a bad lock but i've never really rated Maestri that highly, what's Flanquart like?

In the back row I know nothing of Le Roux, how's he been performing?

From an England perspective there's not a lot i'd change about the pack, perhaps Attwood into the pack on a wet night but otherwise it's a top pack. Corbisiero obviously, and Wilson on the bench instead of Thomas.

If we win, great it means we can start really moving forward. If we get munched then it's worrying because there's nowhere else to go!

Mas hasnt been exceptional but seems fit enough and you'd still expect him to perform well at the scrum , he's never been very good on the loose anyway. his replacement Slimani is a also a good scrummager.
Flanquart is a good mobile lock, mainly a line out specialist.
Not sure how to rate Le Roux as it has been difficult to have a decent opinion of any racing player these days (since the team form has been so erratic). decent (but not great) tackler but also a good line out option and quite moblie for his size in my opinion .
overall think we lack grunt so can be exposed in the rucks if England chose to flood them. but if somehow we get quick ball then it could get interesting... on the other hand if Papé gets a yellow card (which he often does) then it could be embarrassing...

Traditionally youd assume its better with some Mas at prop than picking a Slim man.

whocares wrote:

Chjw131 wrote:Given that it's going to be up front that this battle is won or lost what is the French pack actually like? The front row, as we know is an excellent scrummaging unit but how has Mas been going recently?

Pape isn't a bad lock but i've never really rated Maestri that highly, what's Flanquart like?

In the back row I know nothing of Le Roux, how's he been performing?

From an England perspective there's not a lot i'd change about the pack, perhaps Attwood into the pack on a wet night but otherwise it's a top pack. Corbisiero obviously, and Wilson on the bench instead of Thomas.

If we win, great it means we can start really moving forward. If we get munched then it's worrying because there's nowhere else to go!

Mas hasnt been exceptional but seems fit enough and you'd still expect him to perform well at the scrum , he's never been very good on the loose anyway. his replacement Slimani is a also a good scrummager.
Flanquart is a good mobile lock, mainly a line out specialist.
Not sure how to rate Le Roux as it has been difficult to have a decent opinion of any racing player these days (since the team form has been so erratic). decent (but not great) tackler but also a good line out option and quite moblie for his size in my opinion .
overall think we lack grunt so can be exposed in the rucks if England chose to flood them. but if somehow we get quick ball then it could get interesting... on the other hand if Papé gets a yellow card (which he often does) then it could be embarrassing...

Excellent, thanks for that whocares.

Interesting to see you feel the pack lacks grunt, who would you have brought in to counter that? Particularly with six forwards on the bench what's PSA's gameplan?

You dont want to advocate people getting injured but France are surely only a couple of Lawes hits away from having to do an Uncle Vernon

not sure there is such thing as a game plan ... but 6 forwards on the bench is quite conservative indeed. could well mean that they expect to commit a lot of players at the breakdown.
am actually happy to have a mobile pack for a change, not sure England is the right team to test that against though. am also vaguely excited by this new 9-10 partnership although it could go very wrong.

My take on this.


The key for England as Billy Vunipola put it so well recently is not to barge straight into the french in a macho head on collision, but rather to use footwork, angles and clever short passes and offloads to hit gaps or weak shoulders/arms. That way we dictate the terms on which contact takes place and have a much better chance of either breaking the line or dominating contact.
Yes the French are big and yes they have stacked their bench for a piggy battle royale but if we "box clever" and play with resulting tempo we'll beat them.

Get sucked into a lot of head on collisions and we're playing into their hands.

On that note…..how good are Burrell's feet? Nowell's feet? How good are Basteroid's feet?

LIW

I for one dont want to see Lawes constantly aiming for the big hit. I think he's looked more mature as a player for not doing that...meaning hes more consistant and more effective as a player.

The odd bone cruncher is still appreciated absolutely but the maturer Lawes looks a hell of a lot more impressive player.

SuperGuinness69 wrote:Not a single Toulon player in the entire French match-day 23.

Anyone else find that hilarious?

Surely Bastareaud is a Toulon player?

GeordieFalcon wrote:LIW

I for one dont want to see Lawes constantly aiming for the big hit. I think he's looked more mature as a player for not doing that...meaning hes more consistant and more effective as a player.

The odd bone Celtic fan is still appreciated absolutely but the maturer Lawes looks a hell of a lot more impressive player.

Yes it is an exaggeration. I still have nightmares about his spell at 6 where he spent lots of time looking for big hits, missing them, and just looking stupid..

Triangulation wrote:

My take on this.


The key for England as Billy Vunipola put it so well recently is not to barge straight into the french in a macho head on collision, but rather to use footwork, angles and clever short passes and offloads to hit gaps or weak shoulders/arms. That way we dictate the terms on which contact takes place and have a much better chance of either breaking the line or dominating contact.
Yes the French are big and yes they have stacked their bench for a piggy battle royale but if we "box clever" and play with resulting tempo we'll beat them.

Get sucked into a lot of head on collisions and we're playing into their hands.

On that note…..how good are Burrell's feet? Nowell's feet? How good are Basteroid's feet?  

Good stuff from Vunipola, though you'd have thought that test level forwards would already know, and be doing, this! Burrell has pretty decent feet and Nowell has great footwork for a big guy, its what makes him such a threat and why he beats so many defenders.

beshocked wrote:

SuperGuinness69 wrote:Not a single Toulon player in the entire French match-day 23.

Anyone else find that hilarious?

Surely Bastareaud is a Toulon player?

Yep

belovedfrosties wrote:

Triangulation wrote:

My take on this.


The key for England as Billy Vunipola put it so well recently is not to barge straight into the french in a macho head on collision, but rather to use footwork, angles and clever short passes and offloads to hit gaps or weak shoulders/arms. That way we dictate the terms on which contact takes place and have a much better chance of either breaking the line or dominating contact.
Yes the French are big and yes they have stacked their bench for a piggy battle royale but if we "box clever" and play with resulting tempo we'll beat them.

Get sucked into a lot of head on collisions and we're playing into their hands.

On that note…..how good are Burrell's feet? Nowell's feet? How good are Basteroid's feet?  

Good stuff from Vunipola, though you'd have thought that test level forwards would already know, and be doing, this!  Burrell has pretty decent feet and Nowell has great footwork for a big guy, its what makes him such a threat and why he beats so many defenders.

Excellent. You might think that what i have said and what i have paraphrased Vunipola as saying is obvious but you would not necessarily think it was obvious having watched a lot of what teams actually do in Test matches. Perhaps executing it in the face of smothering defence is a damned sight harder than talking about it.

Either way ...................dance England! dance your way to victory bar stewards!

Is Nowell a big guy at 5,11 and under 14 st? I would say he probably has good strength for his size. Mike Brown isn't big either but he has good strength.

It's the lack of cohesion that worries me. May,Nowell,Burrell,Care,Farrell etc must gel as a backline unit.

Has Care ever played with Farrell before for example? You have two halfbacks who are like chalk and cheese.

Nowell ain't a big guy he's 5'11 but you're right it's his ability to beat the first man and get the team on the front foot which is why he's picked,

Not really a great counter attacker from deep but reads the game exceptionally well and always makes yards in the tackle!

beshocked wrote:Is Nowell a big guy at 5,11 and under 14 st? I would say he probably has good strength for his size. Mike Brown isn't big either but he has good strength.

It's the lack of cohesion that worries me. May,Nowell,Burrell,Care,Farrell etc must gel as a backline unit.

Has Care ever played with Farrell before for example? You have two halfbacks who are like chalk and cheese.

Care and Farrell have played together but only in the odd game or from the bench as Care has been unable to nail down a starting berth. Hopefully they will have had a bit more time to become used to each other in training

And according to the chief coaches he's incredibly strong for a 13.5 stone 20 year old winger!!

Dance you feckers dance!

Make the French chase shadows all day!

Tiger/Chief wrote:Nowell ain't a big guy he's 5'11 but you're right it's his ability to beat the first man and get the team on the front foot which is why he's picked,

Not really a great counter attacker from deep but reads the game exceptionally well and always makes yards in the tackle!

He's the kind of back that the forwards love, in the sense that when they pull their heads out of the ruck/scrum/maul/lineout*, they see Jack skipping off up the field - there's nothing worse than tracking back!

* delete as appropriate

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Tiger/Chief wrote:Nowell ain't a big guy he's 5'11 but you're right it's his ability to beat the first man and get the team on the front foot which is why he's picked,

Not really a great counter attacker from deep but reads the game exceptionally well and always makes yards in the tackle!

He's the kind of back that the forwards love, in the sense that when they pull their heads out of the ruck/scrum/maul/lineout*, they see Jack skipping off up the field - there's nothing worse than tracking back!

* delete as appropriate

Sounds a bit like he's partway between May and Brown

with this new french 9/10 combination, anything could happen on saturday. i thought the match was going to be close, but i now wouldnt be surprised to see either team win by 20 if it all goes right (or wrong).

am pleased (for the french) that they are starting to play a 10 at 10 rather than a 9 at 10. never understood why they insist on playing 9s at 10...

Yeah, "big" probably wasn't the right word to use but when you watch him play and his ability in contact he certainly seems it. He's exceptionally hard to put down and the number of yards he makes in contact is very impressive.

Do we need another Brown though? Wouldn't outright power/finishing offer a better balance? Though I accept he is faster. I'm just playing Devil's advocate

ChequeredJersey wrote:Do we need another Brown though? Wouldn't outright power/finishing offer a better balance? Though I accept he is faster. I'm just playing Devil's advocate

So Banahan then...

If he can stay up like Brown does but use his support better then he'll be useful. If he dies with the ball after getting isolated then we don't need him so much.

Banahan had his skills! He just never showed them off on the Int stage...except against Argentina.

So how's the mood of the English and French fans ahead if Le Crunch???confident of an easy win or ready for a bad start to the Championship????

Personally I'm nervous. Hard first game, worried about the scrum based on Cole's issues with Domingo in the past and the well documented back play issues. After initial doubts I'm kind of happy Care has been given a chance, hope he's been told to play to his instincts and that he can transfer his club form and hopefully give the rest of the backs some front foot ball.

I know how France did last year but I don't think any of the other nations would have enjoyed this fixture first up (regardless of what they might say!).

Should have added that I might be nervous but I can't wait, just like a kid at Christmas . 11am kick off over here, Mrs is even at work so all's good .

Would have preferred to see the more mobile and flexible Slater on the bench instead of Attwood. We lose no grunt but Slater can play blindside and is both faster and more skillful. If Robshaw or Wood go down injured we are in bother.

Is Domingo on form? Off form he is a liability, on form he is unplayable at the scrum.

ChequeredJersey wrote:Do we need another Brown though? Wouldn't outright power/finishing offer a better balance? Though I accept he is faster. I'm just playing Devil's advocate

Is May that finisher on the other wing with Brown playing his difficult to stop style and Nowell a mix of both?

ANy way there are so many unpredictables in this game its going to be potentially fascinating or potentially horrible to watch for a neutral or for a an English or French fan.

Hes much more of a finisher than Brown, but is similar in the way he fights his way through contact. Difference being that once he's free, he has the pace to get away and cause real damage. He's also a fan of picking an inside line off the ruck, im really looking forward to seeing what he can do.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

ANy way there are so many unpredictables in this game its going to be potentially fascinating or potentially horrible to watch for a neutral or for a an English or French fan.

To be honest even if it goes well in terms of socreline for england I expect it to be horrid to watch. The weather isnt likely to be good. Sides are notoriously cagey and nervy in the 6 nations openers. The French have picked a side to grind and England lack creative spark right through the backs to add to the problems faced by a unit that has barely met let alone played together. The French arent much better off in that regard.
With the packs which will win out ... the big scary grinding monsters or the cheeky young whippets...will england be quick enough to the breakdown to rescue tthe ball before the french eat it? Will Hartley or Marler lose their rag first? If france get 3 points ahead will they try to close out the game with a 70 minute scrum reset?
I expect this to resemble Lancasters opener against Scotland more than his glory hole against New Zealand.

Truely though this could be really embarrassing for either coach. I guess the hope there is that whichever side implodes the other does is more spectacularly.

Peter,

I agree with some of what you say, but not sure on your comment on Marler and Hartley...don't see either of them as an issue.

Also I think the breakdown has been one of our most impressive areas...with most of the pack very efficient there and having the pace to get there...

Also I think there is a lot of creative potential in this backline...much more than a potential Dickson, Barrit, Tuilagi midfield...but they're inexperience. Big IF I agree with you...

But again all the debates mean diddly...its all about who turns up on Saturday.

With these unknown, untested players against each other this is shaping up to be the most interesting game of the weekend. Not sure I've ever been as intrigued by Le Crunch as much as this year. So many variables, I hope its a cracker!