France v England - Paris - 01/02/2014

by Chjw131 Thu 23 Jan 2014, 12:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

French XXIII

1. T Domingo 2. B Kayser 3. N Mas
4. A Flanquart 5. P Pape
6. Y Nyanga 7. B Le Roux 8. L Picamoles
9. J-M Doussin 10. J Plisson
12. W Fofana 13. M Basteraud
11. M Medard 15. B Dulin 14. Y Huget

16. D Sarzewski 17. Y Forestier 18. R Slimani 19. Y Maestri 20. A Burban 21. D Chouly 22. M Machenaud 23. G Fickou

England XXIII

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola
9. D Care
10. O Farrell
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. L Burrell
14. J Nowell
15. M Brown

16. T Youngs 17. M Vunipola 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. B Morgan 21. L Dickson 22. B Barritt 23. A Goode

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:22 pm

DaveM wrote:Well I thought that was England's best 6 Nations performance for years. We actually looked dangerous ball in hand. We were unlucky to lose both wings injured, and to conceded two tries from lucky kicks. Still, the way the forwards gained dominance against a French side in France in the loose and the threat we posed ball in hand was very promising. Lots to work on, but a step forward.

50-60 mins maybe. The start was panicky poo

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:23 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:For those looking at me...I'm blaming Lancaster because I truly believe his Management of subs etc cost us that game.

However regardless of this game...we're gonna get royal humped off the Welsh!!!

I'm not sure we are

by GloriousEmpire Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:23 pm

France were woeful in the second half. They were too deep in attack and their Backline was static. The rucks were taking too long to clear and the kicking game was aimless and too short.

They played 5 minutes of rugby which was enough to win the match.

by DaveM Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:26 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Did Lamcaster bring Barritt on for the sake of it or is Nowell injured? Cause if it's the former, that's enough reason for him to go and beat his head against a wall for a year.

Nowell looked injured to me.

I don't see Lancaster had much choice but to make changes at 60 minutes. France had changed almost all their forwards, we'd been forced into an early change in the backs.

This is a game England could have won (where-as at 16-3 they were facing humiliation), but they are young and inexperienced and they will end up being much better for today's game.

by Duty281 Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:27 pm

Tremendous game of rugby. Fast, free-flowing and open. Five tries, a comeback and a late dash to victory. Superb game, superb advert for the Six Nations.

Oh England. Your inexperience has cost you dearly. I admire any team trying to play a fast, wide game, particularly when it's England doing it, but you need to know when to rein it in. Doing it at 16-3, while gallant, is hardly the safest thing to do. Nor is it the right thing to do when you're protecting a very thin lead.

For the first twenty minutes or so England weren't in it. A deluge of errors compounded by a lack of cohesion meant England were absolutely nowhere. Then they picked it up for the remainder of the first half and most of the second half. The small mountain they made for themselves was ascended, then it all fell apart.

Some good individual performances in there to take heart from though. Hartley underlined why he's the starting hooker. The locks and the back row were impressive, ensuring a plentiful supply of quick ball.

The backs for England were hit and miss. I thought the half-back pairing was decent: Care showed plenty of impetus and Farrell was fantastic with ball in hand. Nowell grew into the game, as did Burrell. Twelvetrees was rather poor, particularly the passing. Brown was good, as ever.

Experience! It's vital! England should have won that game. And did Lancaster empty the bench again, merely for the sake of emptying the bench? Plenty of positives, hardest game out of the way, we're a team in transition etc. You know the rest Wink

Well done France. clap

In particular, well done to the French fly-half who has melted my heart in such a way that I don't feel anger. Or resentment. And I haven't punched the TV. All good.

In all seriousness, it was a excellent team effort by the French. When England made errors, France capitalised. When France had to keep their minds calmest at the moment of greatest pressure, they did. With aplomb.

Rather wide open Six Nations now isn't it? It's all good!

by mystiroakey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:28 pm

It was a really good performance imo. And I think we will go on from strength to strength..

We have no expectations now.. We can just play rugby without dreaming of a GS and hopefully we wont get crucified in the last game and can come out of this tourny with a positive.

I thought we would just lose the game at the start. Funnily enough i thought after the first half we had done enough to take them apart seond half- which off course we should have completed...

But anyway - well played france.. But I wouldn't fear them in a rematch. and i can only see us winning the others games this 6N's.. Positive play that. Best version of rugby I have seen under Lancaster since the NZ win

by Sgt_Pooly Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:28 pm

Really impressive performance and great game.

We're certainly progressing nicely under SL, I'm not bothered about the result tbh

by wales606 Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:29 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:France were woeful in the second half. They were too deep in attack and their Backline was static. The rucks were taking too long to clear and the kicking game was aimless and too short.

They played 5 minutes of rugby which was enough to win the match.

I agree,

France had absolutely no gameplan in that second half - it was weird

by Wi11 Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:29 pm

Coming from a previous Lancaster cynic, I thought England were excellent and the result a complete travesty. I'm very annoyed and very encouraged at the same time.

by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:32 pm

Well done France, heart breaking for England who I think were the better side.

Two lucky bounces and typical French ability to ride the luck killed us.

Playing with 14 men for last 10 minutes, Farrell was out of it, could hardly walk never mind run.

Goode needs shooting, isolated he should have done anything to get the ball into touch.

Unfortunate for May, looked really threatening for the 5 minutes he was on the field, then we are back to Goode at 15 and Brown on the wing, a combo that we know doesn't work.

Good resilience by France, not the France of last year, their two back replacements actually made a difference, I think with forced change for Goode and then Barritt coming on, we lost something in go forward and gained nothing in defence, (Beshocked, not a Sarries knock). Goode not as good as Brown, Brown not as good a winger as May, Barritt caused Burrell to go out to wing, not as good as Nowell and Barritt not as good offensively as Burrell. The changes were all negative to the good of the team.

by The Bachelor Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:33 pm

I think the French changes and some English injuries changed the game in the end; two rather fortuitous victories today for the home sides.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:37 pm

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:Well done France, heart breaking for England who I think were the better side.

Two lucky bounces and typical French ability to ride the luck killed us.

Playing with 14 men for last 10 minutes, Farrell was out of it, could hardly walk never mind run.

Goode needs shooting, isolated he should have done anything to get the ball into touch.

Unfortunate for May, looked really threatening for the 5 minutes he was on the field, then we are back to Goode at 15 and Brown on the wing, a combo that we know doesn't work.

Good resilience by France, not the France of last year, their two back replacements actually made a difference, I think with forced change for Goode and then Barritt coming on, we lost something in go forward and gained nothing in defence, (Beshocked, not a Sarries knock). Goode not as good as Brown, Brown not as good a winger as May, Barritt caused Burrell to go out to wing, not as good as Nowell and Barritt not as good offensively as Burrell. The changes were all negative to the good of the team.

And Dickson not as good as Care in attacking terms

by GloriousEmpire Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:38 pm

Too many lumps and not enough talent.

It's all very well having vunipola(s) and Morgan rolling over the gain line but they are hardly link players. Almost every single pass that went out from 10 was dropping short of the receiver. It happened all game. England need to learn the simple art of passing into the space a player will occupy, rather than passing to where he is.

The rush defense was exposed masterfully by France and too many one on one tackles were missed.

Nowell is awful. What a catalogue of errors. He tried to hard and the occasion got to him.

I thought brown was very lucky to have his try awarded because he seemed for all the world to have lost control of it to me.

Still England were superior to an utterly clueless French second half display, and should be kicking themselves for letting it slip.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:39 pm

Glad to confirm you have visual problems, GE!

by brennomac Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:41 pm

Well if there's only one thing France learnt from that game is that Bastereaud is a muscle-bound useless lump of lard. PSA got lucky today - after such a good start appalling that France couldn't move on. All credit England - although their scrum got a hammering from the French, Domingo had Cole in his pocket all match (well for the time Domingo (what a fantastic 1) was on

by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:44 pm

"Too many lumps and not enough talent"

Been looking in the mirror again GE?

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:44 pm

Domingo is a better LH than Corbs or Healy IMO, only Ayerza as good in the scrum. I know others might disagree though

by DaveM Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:47 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Too many lumps and not enough talent.

It's all very well having vunipola(s) and Morgan rolling over the gain line but they are hardly link players. Almost every single pass that went out from 10 was dropping short of the receiver. It happened all game. England need to learn the simple art of passing into the space a player will occupy, rather than passing to where he is.

The rush defense was exposed masterfully by France and too many one on one tackles were missed.

Nowell is awful. What a catalogue of errors. He tried to hard and the occasion got to him.

I thought brown was very lucky to have his try awarded because he seemed for all the world to have lost control of it to me.

Still England were superior to an utterly clueless French second half display, and should be kicking themselves for letting it slip.

Of course they will be kicking themselves, but that doesn't mean England can't take lots of positives from that game.

England adjusted to the way France were exploiting the rush defence. Any credit for that?

And I really don't understand laying into Nowell in that manner. He's 20, debuting in Paris, knocks on with his first touch due to a Launchbury error, and ends up being the only specialist wing in the side for about 70 minutes. Yes he made mistakes, but he also did some good things and to say he's awful is ridiculous - the sort of thing internet trolls do.

by Wi11 Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:47 pm

I think Nowell was unlucky to make a few conspicuous errors. On the whole he looks promising. Although almost regardless of what Nowell does I think Wade should be our right wing oncce he is fit...

by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:48 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Domingo is a better LH than Corbs or Healy IMO, only Ayerza as good in the scrum. I know others might disagree though

God help Adam Jones then on todays form Domingo will eat him and spit him out

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:52 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Glad to confirm you have visual problems, GE!

Obviously you had your one eye shut in regard to calamity nowell , the defensive lapses and the passes to space.

Look GE is clearly picking the bad points but surely you cant deny those things are true?

I would say if you think Brown was lucky to be awarded his try then care was perhaps unlucky with his. But the positives in attack seen when england were forced to go for broke chasing the game should not be allowed to cloud over the mess they made in defence and basic errors that blew it. France have some talent but were every bit as disjointed as england, a more level headed less rabbit in headlights team would never have had to claw their way back in.

Theres still the bones of a good pack there but the set piece is looking worrying fragile at times. The backs division is still a mess, although at least brown has a try to his name and farrell has proven he can run forward even if it gives him cramp.

They should learn from this that they need to develop combinations and invest time in players rather than looking to change every couple of games. They should also learn that if they play with intent they can rattle teams, but they need to upp their fitness if they cant trust the bench .... the intensity required to out compete the french pack for 20 minutes left them spent.

Its not a disaster to lose away to france, but i dont see this as a team thats gone forward. Now thats partly due to the injury crisis but those who paint a rosey picture in the english garden obviously have low expectations.

by whocares Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:55 pm

Linebreaker wrote:Congrats whocares. A fine win in the end.

Cheers

Have to admit I couldnt see it coming

Commiserations to England who looked as the best team

by nottins_again Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:56 pm

I see GE was using his usual NZ one eye to watch the match, again.

by Rory_Gallagher Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:56 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:Too many lumps and not enough talent.

It's all very well having vunipola(s) and Morgan rolling over the gain line but they are hardly link players. Almost every single pass that went out from 10 was dropping short of the receiver. It happened all game. England need to learn the simple art of passing into the space a player will occupy, rather than passing to where he is.

The rush defense was exposed masterfully by France and too many one on one tackles were missed.

Nowell is awful. What a catalogue of errors. He tried to hard and the occasion got to him.

I thought brown was very lucky to have his try awarded because he seemed for all the world to have lost control of it to me.

Still England were superior to an utterly clueless French second half display, and should be kicking themselves for letting it slip.

Ben Morgan is actually very good at linking with the backs. He is a clever player, I would say that is one of his strengths.

by formerly known as Sam Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:58 pm

He has a point. The defence in the first half was abysmal with our forwards falling off tackles, Dousain leaving Lawes on his ar$e with a handoff being the low point and the backs being exposed out wide time and time again. A lot of desperation tackling going on.

Second half the intensity covered some of the organisational issues. In attack there was very little structure which turned to no structure once Farrell virtually disappeared from the game with cramp. The bench had no back line impact whatsoever and we paid for that. Could have done with Slater or Kitchener on the bench as Attwood is not an impact player and Lawes faded. Wood will be lucky to retain his shirt but with two proper wingers the backline should work.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Sat 01 Feb 2014, 7:58 pm

DaveM wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Too many lumps and not enough talent.

It's all very well having vunipola(s) and Morgan rolling over the gain line but they are hardly link players. Almost every single pass that went out from 10 was dropping short of the receiver. It happened all game. England need to learn the simple art of passing into the space a player will occupy, rather than passing to where he is.

The rush defense was exposed masterfully by France and too many one on one tackles were missed.

Nowell is awful. What a catalogue of errors. He tried to hard and the occasion got to him.

I thought brown was very lucky to have his try awarded because he seemed for all the world to have lost control of it to me.

Still England were superior to an utterly clueless French second half display, and should be kicking themselves for letting it slip.

Of course they will be kicking themselves, but that doesn't mean England can't take lots of positives from that game.

England adjusted to the way France were exploiting the rush defence. Any credit for that?

And I really don't understand laying into Nowell in that manner. He's 20, debuting in Paris, knocks on with his first touch due to a Launchbury error, and ends up being the only specialist wing in the side for about 70 minutes. Yes he made mistakes, but he also did some good things and to say he's awful is ridiculous - the sort of thing internet trolls do.

Suggesting that ghost

is an internet troll? Outrageous

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:01 pm

Wi11 wrote:I think Nowell was unlucky to make a few conspicuous errors. On the whole he looks promising. Although almost regardless of what Nowell does I think Wade should be our right wing oncce he is fit...

Given he got the job through ashton making errors .....
Look he does get a free pass to some extent ..settling in and all that. But it comes back to people celebrating the fact we have been forced into using the 7th choice as some kind of great victory, it isnt. This was pretty predictable and for all their good work both he and Burrell were key contributors ( along with goode) to the shambles that allowed France soft tries.
Greta we have yet another wing capped, im sure hes learnt now what he mustve known already ...if youve only met your partners in a defensive system a couple of weeks previously chances are youll end up covering the wrong spaces and then making mistakes overplaying to compensate.
Meanwhile we have another loss, are no closer to building a team, but do have yet another wing with less than 5 caps.

Im sure Goode will pay the price for his opart and get booted to give Watson a go at being the latest magic bullet.

Im aware Lancaster didnt have much choice but to pick him in the end but unlike some I dont see that capping endless kids and getting no chance to develop them into grizzled vetrerans who can combine their talent with confidence, poise and partnerships with their comrades is a great thing.
Its not developing a players its failing to develop one and constantly changing it. Not entirely lancasters fault as the injuries are absurd but far from a good thing.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:01 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Glad to confirm you have visual problems, GE!

Obviously you had your one eye shut in regard to calamity nowell , the defensive lapses and the passes to space.

Look GE is clearly picking the bad points but surely you cant deny those things are true?

I would say if you think Brown was lucky to be awarded his try then care was perhaps unlucky with his. But the positives in attack seen when england were forced to go for broke chasing the game should not be allowed to cloud over the mess they made in defence and basic errors that blew it. France have some talent but were every bit as disjointed as england, a more level headed less rabbit in headlights team would never have had to claw their way back in.

Theres still the bones of a good pack there but the set piece is looking worrying fragile at times. The backs division is still a mess, although at least brown has a try to his name and farrell has proven he can run forward even if it gives him cramp.

They should learn from this that they need to develop combinations and invest time in players rather than looking to change every couple of games. They should also learn that if they play with intent they can rattle teams, but they need to upp their fitness if they cant trust the bench .... the intensity required to out compete the french pack for 20 minutes left them spent.

Its not a disaster to lose away to france, but i dont see this as a team thats gone forward. Now thats partly due to the injury crisis but those who paint a rosey picture in the english garden obviously have low expectations.

I was referring specifically to te try which Brown clearly had downwards pressure, all that is required, over. Sorry I should have made that clear. Nowell had a mixed match, some good and some utterly shocking, like several of our backs

by BamBam Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:01 pm

Nowell made a few decent breaks, stopped Picamoles and Swarzeski when they were on full tilt and did well in the kicking game.

Yes he got driven back by 2 forwards (show me a winger who wouldn't), made a mistake tackling the man in the air and slipped for their second try, but for me the good outweighed the bad and as long as he is fit he should get another game

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:02 pm

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:
Wi11 wrote:I think Nowell was unlucky to make a few conspicuous errors. On the whole he looks promising. Although almost regardless of what Nowell does I think Wade should be our right wing oncce he is fit...

Given he got the job through ashton making errors .....
Look he does get a free pass to some extent ..settling in and all that. But it comes back to people celebrating the fact we have been forced into using the 7th choice as some kind of great victory, it isnt. This was pretty predictable and for all their good work both he and Burrell were key contributors ( along with goode) to the shambles that allowed France soft tries.
Greta we have yet another wing capped, im sure hes learnt now what he mustve known already ...if youve only met your partners in a defensive system a couple of weeks previously chances are youll end up covering the wrong spaces and then making mistakes overplaying to compensate.
Meanwhile we have another loss, are no closer to building a team, but do have yet another wing with less than 5 caps.

Im sure Goode will pay the price for his opart and get booted to give Watson a go at being the latest magic bullet.

Im aware Lancaster didnt have much choice but to pick him in the end but unlike some I dont see that capping endless kids and getting no chance to develop them into grizzled vetrerans who can combine their talent with confidence, poise and partnerships with their comrades is a great thing.
Its not developing a players its failing to develop one and constantly changing it. Not entirely lancasters fault as the injuries are absurd but far from a good thing.

Can't argue with any of this though

by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:03 pm

After 30 min I thought I would be gutted as we looked by miles the 2nd best team. After 80 I'm disappointed after a game we should have seen out. Much improved performance in the 2nd half and sad that May didn't have any real chance to impress in the game. Hopefully he recovers enough to play in the next game as it was a real kick in the teeth to have to play without a recognised winger on the left for much of the game.

For all of Youngs' impressive carries after he came on I still think there's a case for Webber to be on the bench with a superior set piece.

Apart from the score lots to be positive about; hopefully we can keep much the same team next week.

by WELL-PAST-IT Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:04 pm

Anyone think that GE is PSW's lovechild?

Both have only one eye, both only post in the negative with only occasional insightful comments.

GE is just a childish version of PSW.

by Bristolian Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:05 pm

Marks out of ten (note, I don't hold with the print media's view that 6/7 is average...5 is average):

Marler -5. Good carrying, but was dominated at scrum time, which is, after all, his primary job.
Hartley - 7. Performed fundamentals well, carried well and seemed to offer some leadership.
Cole - 4. Part of a beaten scrum, not as effective at the breakdown as we've become used to.
Launchbury - 7. Part of a solid lineout, good in the loose.
Lawes - 8. Excellent. Lineout performed well, very good tackling as ever, and some good carries and passes.
Wood - 7. Good defence, made a nuisance of himself and appeared to get under French skin.
Robshaw - 6. Some good carries, but still not a proper 7.
Vunipola - 8. Pica-who?

Care - 6. Good sniping run to set up the first try, good pace on the game, but passing often not good enough with 10 and 12 having to pick the ball up off their toes
Farrell - 7. Was I mistaken or did he actually attack the line a couple of times?! Bit harsh to mention it, but he did miss 5 points in kicks... All in all a pretty good game.

May - N/A. Not enough time to really get a score (good or bad)
Twelvetrees - 4. Tried hard, but not precise enough
Burrell - 6. Very good debut, threatening in attack, solid in defence
Nowell - 3. I don't doubt his talent, nor do I attach any blame to him for the defeat, but he is not ready yet, caught out of position too many times.
Brown - 7. Solid as ever, good in attack, even allowing for having to play on the wing again.

Subs:
Youngs - 3. Having championed him in the past I've pretty much changed my mind. Cannot hook or throw in. Maybe try League?
Mako Vunipola - 5. Same as Marler, very good carrying but beaten at scrum time
Attwood - 5. Didn't do much, good or bad.
Morgan - 6. Would have got a higher score I suspect, if he'd been on longer. Very good go forward. England have 2 good players at 8.
Dickson - 6. No attacking threat, but did pass better than Care
Barrett 2. Don't know why he was picked. Offered nothing.
Goode 5. Bang on average, which I think is probably the best we can hope for from him at international level.

Lancaster - 5. selection wise I can't criticise too much - injuries did force his hand. Use of the bench, think Hartley should've stayed on (if he was fit of course) and Barrett offered nothing. Otherwise, again I think game situation/fitness/injuries dictated what happened.

Overall - 5/ Lads gave it a real go, but I honestly believe this French team isn't all that. They're not inconsistent/mercurial etc. They're just average. Pre-game, I'd only have swapped Mas, Domingo, a fully fit (and playing!) Parra and Fofana for their English equivalent. So having got 5 points up we should have won.

by disneychilly Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:06 pm

I think Basteraud wasn't as bad as implied above, fact is he and Fofana didn't get quality ball all night. Just happened to break down when Fickou was on the field and he showed his class. Wouldn't mind seeing a Fofana Fickou midfield. Huget was very impressive today. Very hard to put down and good in the air, and took his chances well. Kudos to the French scrum who definitely got the better of England-think the lineouts were pretty even.

England played very well with structure and skill-and are definitely improving. However they've stated they're done with building and need to win now. I agree-they're too good a side to be anything more than seriously cheesed off after that result. They did well to come back from two fortuitous tries (though the bounce for the second was karma IMO for the late tackle) but they should have killed France off. They were winning the collisions, Vunipola was outstanding, I liked what Robshaw did a lot, and they were keeping the ball alive which troubled the French. But if you give them a sniff that's what they do to you-as the team I happen to support knows too well. This will sting as they wanted to stamp their authority on Europe. They obviously have one more 6N before the World Cup and I reckon they'll feel the need to get the Grand Slam monkey off their back before then.

A word on Fickou's try, was very disappointing to see the last England man take the dummy instead of taking Fickou. 7 to win for France so they needed the kick-he HAD to fix himself and make Fickou pass to the man outside to make the kick more difficult. That's schoolboy stuff for me and could prove crucial.

by flankertye Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:07 pm

Hope someone has slapped Jack Nowell and Alex Goode.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:12 pm

On the ratings: Harsh on Care's passing, I thought it was actually pretty good and Dickson was far far more ponderous. Obviously I also think the bit about proper 7 is Love sacks too

Kind to Goode and to Launchbury too, I was disappointed with him.

I'd have said-

Brown- 7
Nowell- 5
Burrell- 6
36- 3.5
May- NA
Farrell- 6.5
Care- 7
Billy V- 8
Robshaw- 6.5
Wood- 7
Lawes-7
Launchbury- 5
Cole- 3
Hartley- 7
Marler- 5.5

Mako- 5.5
Youngs- 4
Attwood- meh
Morgan-6.5
Dickson- 5
Barritt- 3 because it meant we had to play Burrell on the wing
Goode- 4

by Bristolian Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:16 pm

P.s, congrats to France, took their chances well. I'm struggling to mark their players though, as they won but I don't think they were the better team. High marks to Huget, Fofana, all four props, Swarvewski (Sp.?) (only time I've ever seem him play well!) and Nyanga who was brilliant. Low marks to Bastareud who was rubbish. Every time he plays there is a big hoo-ha before the game, then....nothing. Picamoles was pretty average as well, for such a good player.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:18 pm

For every try england create they give one away ... its like Mike Catt all over again ...

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:18 pm

Anyone else think Fofana didn't have a great game at all? Admittedly without much ball

by bedfordwelsh Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:19 pm

For what its worth and bear in mind we (Wales) have had enough of being 'gallant losers' but the best side lost today.

by Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:20 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Anyone else think Fofana didn't have a great game at all? Admittedly without much ball

Quiet, credit to the defence for shutting him and bastreud down and stopping the ball coming to them. The problem was every time it got to the guys outside them by england mistakes they only had to walk through a wet paper bag with a door in it to score.

by **George Carlin** Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:22 pm

Some harsh criticisms of England. I'll need to watch the first half in full as I only saw the second but England had tremendous control and France were hanging on by their fingernails to control the England forwards power running.

I think in summary England were undone by a couple of flashes of brilliance and the bounce of the ball on two occasions. That's it for me, really. They don't need to do anything else. Their gameplan is probably enough to beat every other team in this tournament - they just need to execute it with fewer mistakes and get the guys like Manu back.

It was a cracking game for the neutral. The other point of course is that the England Saxons game showed quite clearly that you may not be the biggest fan of Owen Farrell's style of play, but England needs him fit fairly badly.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:22 pm

I'm still confused as to why, much as I'd love to have kept Brown at FB, Goode was defending the wing at any time

by Coltnet Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:25 pm

I think Dan Cole was pi$$ poor today and has been for a while. Turned inside out at scrum time and missing in the loose. Feel really angry we lost this one. France rode their luck with two lucky bounces and despite me thinking we would come back into it I always thought they would win. We'll done France, sham for us. Dan Cole you need to improve.....fast!

by Taylorman Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:25 pm

disneychilly wrote:

A word on Fickou's try, was very disappointing to see the last England man take the dummy instead of taking Fickou. 7 to win for France so they needed the kick-he HAD to fix himself and make Fickou pass to the man outside to make the kick more difficult. That's schoolboy stuff for me and could prove crucial.

Exactly what I was thinking when he cut back Disney. Every English player should have been prepared to stop any potential try from getting anywhere near the posts. France had to score a try and it was disappointing after seeing them pushed right to the sideline giving him a free run to the posts.Non involved players should have been tracking back to the posts when the french went wide. Easy to say in hindsight but at this level players must have that vision.

Last year Kieran read had no chance of stopping the Irish scoring the third try but he ran fifty yards purely to keep the try wide...the missed conversion ultimately telling on the result. Keeping fickou wide was just as important as stopping the try.

by Bristolian Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:26 pm

Chequered, I did give Care an above average score, but maybe I was being bit too critical though. Don't get me wrong, I rate him, perhaps its just that I'm used to seeing him being outstanding for Quins, but never yet as good for England. Robshaw, guess its just a marmite situation! I wouldn't advocate dropping him though, as I do think he is a good captain, and though not (in my view) a proper 7 he is a good player in a back row unit that generally performs well. If we had a realistic alternative at 7 I imagine I would drop him though.

by nathan Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:26 pm

Bristolian wrote:Marks out of ten (note, I don't hold with the print media's view that 6/7 is average...5 is average):

Marler -5. Good carrying, but was dominated at scrum time, which is, after all, his primary job. (Struggled in the scrum
Hartley - 7. Performed fundamentals well, carried well and seemed to offer some leadership. (Knocked on a couple of times, would knock a couple of his score for the beaten scrum
Cole - 4. Part of a beaten scrum, not as effective at the breakdown as we've become used to. (He still got a couple of turnovers, move than most props do)
Launchbury - 7. Part of a solid lineout, good in the loose.
Lawes - 8. Excellent. Lineout performed well, very good tackling as ever, and some good carries and passes.
Wood - 7. Good defence, made a nuisance of himself and appeared to get under French skin. Was a pain at the breakdown
Robshaw - 6. Some good carries, but still not a proper 7. I think he's improving with the breakdown work.
Vunipola - 8. Pica-who? (Still had a couple of knock ons)

Care - 6. Good sniping run to set up the first try, good pace on the game, but passing often not good enough with 10 and 12 having to pick the ball up off their toes (Not sure where these passes were where he had to pick the ball of his laces? He had a few poor kicks though
Farrell - 7. Was I mistaken or did he actually attack the line a couple of times?! Bit harsh to mention it, but he did miss 5 points in kicks... All in all a pretty good game. I agree in that he showed more in attack, wonder if that was because of the players around him

May - N/A. Not enough time to really get a score (good or bad)
Twelvetrees - 4. Tried hard, but not precise enough (Agree in that he had a poor game, got a bit better during the game
Burrell - 6. Very good debut, threatening in attack, solid in defence
Nowell - 3. I don't doubt his talent, nor do I attach any blame to him for the defeat, but he is not ready yet, caught out of position too many times.
Brown - 7. Solid as ever, good in attack, even allowing for having to play on the wing again.

Subs:
Youngs - 3. Having championed him in the past I've pretty much changed my mind. Cannot hook or throw in. Maybe try League? Well he managed to hook more than Hartley.... He does need to work on his throwing though
Mako Vunipola - 5. Same as Marler, very good carrying but beaten at scrum time The french scrum was certainly on top today, they should of been pinged a few more times for driving up
Attwood - 5. Didn't do much, good or bad.
Morgan - 6. Would have got a higher score I suspect, if he'd been on longer. Very good go forward. England have 2 good players at 8.
Dickson - 6. No attacking threat, but did pass better than Care
Barrett 2. Don't know why he was picked. Offered nothing.
Goode 5. Bang on average, which I think is probably the best we can hope for from him at international level.

Lancaster - 5. selection wise I can't criticise too much - injuries did force his hand. Use of the bench, think Hartley should've stayed on (if he was fit of course) and Barrett offered nothing. Otherwise, again I think game situation/fitness/injuries dictated what happened.

Overall - 5/ Lads gave it a real go, but I honestly believe this French team isn't all that. They're not inconsistent/mercurial etc. They're just average. Pre-game, I'd only have swapped Mas, Domingo, a fully fit (and playing!) Parra and Fofana for their English equivalent. So having got 5 points up we should have won.

by Artful_Dodger Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:27 pm

Coltnet wrote:I think Dan Cole was pi$$ poor today and has been for a while. Turned inside out at scrum time and missing in the loose. Feel really angry we lost this one. France rode their luck with two lucky bounces and despite me thinking we would come back into it I always thought they would win. We'll done France, sham for us. Dan Cole you need to improve.....fast!

I don't rate Dan Cole as a scrummager at all and haven't since I've seem him get done by Tom Court in the scrum on numerous occasions in this seasons HC.

by nathan Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:27 pm

Coltnet wrote:I think Dan Cole was pi$$ poor today and has been for a while. Turned inside out at scrum time and missing in the loose. Feel really angry we lost this one. France rode their luck with two lucky bounces and despite me thinking we would come back into it I always thought they would win. We'll done France, sham for us. Dan Cole you need to improve.....fast!

Really, do people only look at what they want to?

He made a couple of turn overs at the break down, our whole scrum was going backwards and yet you don't mention any of those?

by flankertye Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:28 pm

Will watch the game, maybe the highlights again as I spent the first half in a bit of a daze having been the victim of a neck nomination video.
For me, the forwards again were fantastic. Great to see Ben Morgan back to his best again.
Alex Goode however I'm not impressed with. Will Greenwood may adore him, but I think he needs to be dropped.

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