France v England - Paris - 01/02/2014

by Chjw131 Thu 23 Jan 2014, 12:54 pm

First topic message reminder :

French XXIII

1. T Domingo 2. B Kayser 3. N Mas
4. A Flanquart 5. P Pape
6. Y Nyanga 7. B Le Roux 8. L Picamoles
9. J-M Doussin 10. J Plisson
12. W Fofana 13. M Basteraud
11. M Medard 15. B Dulin 14. Y Huget

16. D Sarzewski 17. Y Forestier 18. R Slimani 19. Y Maestri 20. A Burban 21. D Chouly 22. M Machenaud 23. G Fickou

England XXIII

1. J Marler
2. D Hartley
3. D Cole
4. J Launchbury
5. C Lawes
6. T Wood
7. C Robshaw
8. B Vunipola
9. D Care
10. O Farrell
11. J May
12. B Twelvetrees
13. L Burrell
14. J Nowell
15. M Brown

16. T Youngs 17. M Vunipola 18. H Thomas 19. D Attwood 20. B Morgan 21. L Dickson 22. B Barritt 23. A Goode

by GloriousEmpire Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:29 pm

People keep saying France's tries were luck of the bounce.

Not true. They were simply chipping the rushing defense into the space behind and exploiting the poor defence. The identified that the new boys would be England's weakness and attacked them relentlessly. It was clever.This is exactly the ploy they used in that fateful 1999 RWC semi against NZ when NZ played with a make-shift back line.

The disappointing thing for me is that France got 16-3 and then completely changed game plan. They switched to distributing to an overly deep backline who were utterly static, and attempted to win a forward battle which they lost in the loose, and won in the tight. They tried to close the game out from 40 minutes out instead of continuing with the same tactics that had seen them 16 points clear.

Foolish stuff.

by Duty281 Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:29 pm

George Carlin wrote:I think in summary England were undone by a couple of flashes of brilliance and the bounce of the ball on two occasions. That's it for me, really. They don't need to do anything else. Their gameplan is probably enough to beat every other team in this tournament - they just need to execute it with fewer mistakes and get the guys like Manu back.

I think that pretty much sums it up for me. 2 key things:

1) England need more cohesion. To get that the team selection has to be more consistent (difficult with injuries though).

2) England need to learn to start from the 1st minute. It took about twenty minutes for England to start playing. It's not an isolated incident; they started slowly against New Zealand as well, not to mention the numerous other games.

by GloriousEmpire Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:30 pm

Duty281 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:I think in summary England were undone by a couple of flashes of brilliance and the bounce of the ball on two occasions. That's it for me, really. They don't need to do anything else. Their gameplan is probably enough to beat every other team in this tournament - they just need to execute it with fewer mistakes and get the guys like Manu back.

I think that pretty much sums it up for me. 2 key things:

1) England need more cohesion. To get that the team selection has to be more consistent (difficult with injuries though).

2) England need to learn to start from the 1st minute. It took about twenty minutes for England to start playing. It's not an isolated incident; they started slowly against New Zealand as well, not to mention the numerous other games.

Way to not learn the lessons...

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:30 pm

I think it's just that Domingo is a not great match for Cole

by nathan Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:31 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:People keep saying France's tries were luck of the bounce.

Not true. They were simply chipping the rushing defense into the space behind and exploiting the poor defence. The identified that the new boys would be England's weakness and attacked them relentlessly. It was clever.This is exactly the ploy they used in that fateful 1999 RWC semi against NZ when NZ played with a make-shift back line.

The disappointing thing for me is that France got 16-3 and then completely changed game plan. They switched to distributing to an overly deep backline who were utterly static, and attempted to win a forward battle which they lost in the loose, and won in the tight. They tried to close the game out from 40 minutes out instead of continuing with the same tactics that had seen them 16 points clear.

Foolish stuff.

How was it not true, England had them covered and then it bounced awkwardly. Surely that is exactly the definition of luck of the bounce?

EDIT: in fact dont bother to answer that, i can't be arsed to reply to you

by yappysnap Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:35 pm

Don't think Marler was dominated in the scrum at all. IIRC Cole and Mako both gave away penalties while Marler gave away none.

Otherwise think most of the starting team should be getting 5's with 6's for Farrel + flankers and 7's for Care, Brown, Billy V and Lawes. 4's for Cole and Twelvetrees.

by Coltnet Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:36 pm

nathan wrote:
Coltnet wrote:I think Dan Cole was pi$$ poor today and has been for a while. Turned inside out at scrum time and missing in the loose. Feel really angry we lost this one. France rode their luck with two lucky bounces and despite me thinking we would come back into it I always thought they would win. We'll done France, sham for us. Dan Cole you need to improve.....fast!

Really, do people only look at what they want to?

He made a couple of turn overs at the break down, our whole scrum was going backwards and yet you don't mention any of those?

Are you sure you are not guilty of that? Also think you commented that Youngs hooked more than Hartley.? Sure that's why Moore said Dickson fed the ball as the hooker, (Youngs) could not hook.
I'm not saying that Dan Cole is a bad player at all. However, you cannot honestly say that he is playing his best. To be fair...I'm more interested in my props stabilising a solid scrum and carrying some hard yards than turnovers. I think Cole did not really do that today

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:38 pm

yappysnap wrote:Don't think Marler was dominated in the scrum at all. IIRC Cole and Mako both gave away penalties while Marler gave away none.

Otherwise think most of the starting team should be getting 5's with 6's for Farrel + flankers and 7's for Care, Brown, Billy V and Lawes. 4's for Cole and Twelvetrees.

Marler gave 1 away. He was good in tr loose though

by nathan Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:39 pm

Coltnet wrote:
nathan wrote:
Coltnet wrote:I think Dan Cole was pi$$ poor today and has been for a while. Turned inside out at scrum time and missing in the loose. Feel really angry we lost this one. France rode their luck with two lucky bounces and despite me thinking we would come back into it I always thought they would win. We'll done France, sham for us. Dan Cole you need to improve.....fast!

Really, do people only look at what they want to?

He made a couple of turn overs at the break down, our whole scrum was going backwards and yet you don't mention any of those?
Are you sure you are not guilty of that? Also think you commented that Youngs hooked more than Hartley.? Sure that's why Moore said Dickson fed the ball as the hooker, (Youngs) could not hook.
I'm not saying that Dan Cole is a bad player at all. However, you cannot honestly say that he is playing his best. To be fair...I'm more interested in my props stabilising a solid scrum and carrying some hard yards than turnovers. I think Cole did not really do that today

So what, we're now not looking for ourselves and just waiting for Moore to tell us what's happening. Youngs has been hooking fine in the Aviva.

Moore really does like the sound of his own voice sometimes. Scrum time he did struggle today, he looks knackered which is a worry for us.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:40 pm

nathan wrote:
Coltnet wrote:
nathan wrote:
Coltnet wrote:I think Dan Cole was pi$$ poor today and has been for a while. Turned inside out at scrum time and missing in the loose. Feel really angry we lost this one. France rode their luck with two lucky bounces and despite me thinking we would come back into it I always thought they would win. We'll done France, sham for us. Dan Cole you need to improve.....fast!

Really, do people only look at what they want to?

He made a couple of turn overs at the break down, our whole scrum was going backwards and yet you don't mention any of those?
Are you sure you are not guilty of that? Also think you commented that Youngs hooked more than Hartley.? Sure that's why Moore said Dickson fed the ball as the hooker, (Youngs) could not hook.
I'm not saying that Dan Cole is a bad player at all. However, you cannot honestly say that he is playing his best. To be fair...I'm more interested in my props stabilising a solid scrum and carrying some hard yards than turnovers. I think Cole did not really do that today

So what, we're now not looking for ourselves and just waiting for Moore to tell us what's happening. Youngs has been hooking fine in the Aviva.

Moore really does like the sound of his own voice sometimes. Scrum time he did struggle today, he looks knackered which is a worry for us.

Lions curse, if we had any fit viable alternatives we should rest him but we don't Sad

by yappysnap Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:42 pm

Ah fair enough, yea he did pick some very good lines though.

Once again the opposition prop was binding on the arm causing our prop to slip but the ref manages to miss that and only see the effect, not the cause.

by No 7&1/2 Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:43 pm

Cole hasn't really been on form since before the Lions but luckily for him Wilson is out. No one would start Thomas ahead of him at the moment.

by Coltnet Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:44 pm

I'm sure that despite Moores obvious failings he knows more about hooking than most of us.
As for Cole, I hope for improvement for the next game. He is our best TH when playing well, just he is not at his best at the min.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:45 pm

Would we rather have won but offered nothing in attack all game or had what we had today?

by Coltnet Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:46 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
nathan wrote:
Coltnet wrote:
nathan wrote:
Coltnet wrote:I think Dan Cole was pi$$ poor today and has been for a while. Turned inside out at scrum time and missing in the loose. Feel really angry we lost this one. France rode their luck with two lucky bounces and despite me thinking we would come back into it I always thought they would win. We'll done France, sham for us. Dan Cole you need to improve.....fast!

Really, do people only look at what they want to?

He made a couple of turn overs at the break down, our whole scrum was going backwards and yet you don't mention any of those?
Are you sure you are not guilty of that? Also think you commented that Youngs hooked more than Hartley.? Sure that's why Moore said Dickson fed the ball as the hooker, (Youngs) could not hook.
I'm not saying that Dan Cole is a bad player at all. However, you cannot honestly say that he is playing his best. To be fair...I'm more interested in my props stabilising a solid scrum and carrying some hard yards than turnovers. I think Cole did not really do that today

So what, we're now not looking for ourselves and just waiting for Moore to tell us what's happening. Youngs has been hooking fine in the Aviva.

Moore really does like the sound of his own voice sometimes. Scrum time he did struggle today, he looks knackered which is a worry for us.

Lions curse, if we had any fit viable alternatives we should rest him but we don't

Agreed.

by glamorganalun Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:48 pm

France were poor today, they tried to sit back on their lead after half time and then found it difficult to get back into the game. Farrel had a good game for once but the centres and wings were poor with Brown the best back scoring with four around him.

The French tackling was like their breakdown work i.e., poor I felt they did not deserve to win but they did score a good try at the end.

England must try to do what Wales did last year win the 6N losing the first game, England have an advantage Wales lost at home last year and Wales did not thump Italy today.

by The Saint Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:49 pm

Owens was in England's back pocket all day and they still lost. Much improvement is needed.

by jimbopip Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:50 pm

by Bristolian Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:51 pm

Hope its just the case that Cole is out of form. The other possibility is that like Adam Jones, he is not enjoying the new scrum laws and interpretations. I will say though that there is little shame in being part of a scrum bettered by Mas and Domingo.

Right, I'm off to watch the concluding parts of The Bridge. Socially awkward Swedish cops and grey cinematography - that'll cheer me up!

by Coltnet Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:52 pm

glamorganalun wrote:France were poor today, they tried to sit back on their lead after half time and then found it difficult to get back into the game. Farrel had a good game for once but the centres and wings were poor with Brown the best back scoring with four around him.

The French tackling was like their breakdown work i.e., poor I felt they did not deserve to win but they did score a good try at the end.

England must try to do what Wales did last year win the 6N losing the first game, England have an advantage Wales lost at home last year and Wales did not thump Italy today.

I actually though that the ball did not get past 36 to be fair. Thought the wings looked for work quite well and it's a shame that losing May so early made us have to change our shape so much.

by TrailApe Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:55 pm

very unhappy with the first minute and the last two minutes, but apart from that, more positives than negatives.

But there again, I'm pretty one eyed.

by BamBam Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:56 pm

The Saint wrote:Owens was in England's back pocket all day and they still lost. Much improvement is needed.

No. He most certainly wasn't

by TJ Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:56 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
GeordieFalcon wrote:For those looking at me...I'm blaming Lancaster because I truly believe his Management of subs etc cost us that game.

However regardless of this game...we're gonna get royal humped off the Welsh!!!

I'm not sure we are

I wouldn't think so either. Wales will need to do rather more than they did today.

by The Saint Sat 01 Feb 2014, 8:59 pm

BamBam wrote:
The Saint wrote:Owens was in England's back pocket all day and they still lost. Much improvement is needed.

No. He most certainly wasn't

Funny that, seeing as we're constantly told the ref is in Wales' back pocket regardless of the opposition. Wales one win, England one loss. Must be the ref's.

by nottins_again Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:00 pm

The Saint wrote:Owens was in France's back pocket all day and they still only just won. Much improvement is needed.

Corrected that for you.

by TJ Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:01 pm

DaveM wrote:
GloriousEmpire wrote:Too many lumps and not enough talent.

Nowell is awful.

And I really don't understand laying into Nowell in that manner. He's 20, debuting in Paris, knocks on with his first touch due to a Launchbury error, and ends up being the only specialist wing in the side for about 70 minutes. Yes he made mistakes, but he also did some good things and to say he's awful is ridiculous - the sort of thing internet trolls do.

Crap coment from a troll. I thought he did well to recover from the early knock on. Not sort of confidence and a willing to have a go. 50/50 tho as he dropped some clangers and did some loverly stuff. I'd play him again

by BamBam Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:01 pm

The Saint wrote:
BamBam wrote:
The Saint wrote:Owens was in England's back pocket all day and they still lost. Much improvement is needed.

No. He most certainly wasn't

Funny that, seeing as we're constantly told the ref is in Wales' back pocket regardless of the opposition. Wales one win, England one loss. Must be the ref's.

Who gives a flying Frak about wales

by Taylorman Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:02 pm

I thought Owens once again showed his class. He was clear and decisive and ...I thought...fair. I have a growing confidence in Mr Owens ability to manage top matches. Easily the best of the current crop.

by TJ Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:03 pm

Ref - good game. Highlight for me is Brown and one of the french backs squaring up and rubbing foreheads. He told 'em to grow up and get on with the game. Great reffing. there will always be decisions that are about opinions, there will always be things missed but as a neutral - another good game from Owens

by belovedfrosties Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:04 pm

The Saint wrote:
BamBam wrote:
The Saint wrote:Owens was in England's back pocket all day and they still lost. Much improvement is needed.

No. He most certainly wasn't

Funny that, seeing as we're constantly told the ref is in Wales' back pocket regardless of the opposition. Wales one win, England one loss. Must be the ref's.

someone needs to say it, you are a complete and utter idiot, none of what you wrote above (or in most threads for that matter) makes any sense.

Ps. sorry mods for making your life a little harder with this!

by The Saint Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:07 pm

nottins_again wrote:
The Saint wrote:Owens was in France's back pocket all day and they still only just won. Much improvement is needed.

Corrected that for you.

Christ not you again. I thought you had found a life laughing

.

by maverickmak Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:15 pm

People quick to have a go at Youngs' hooking but it a lost skill and almost no modern hooker does it consistently any more. England got penalised at the scrum when Hartley didnt hook it in the first Half.

by **Biltong** Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:19 pm

Frosties and Saint, can it immediately

by yappysnap Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:20 pm

maverickmak wrote:People quick to have a go at Youngs' hooking but it a lost skill and almost no modern hooker does it consistently any more. England got penalised at the scrum when Hartley didnt hook it in the first Half.

Less his hooking and more his lineout throwing.

by TJ Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:23 pm

the saint is best ignored I find.

You will allways find fault and mistakes in any refs performance - especially if you are one eyed

by belovedfrosties Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:29 pm

Biltong wrote:

Frosties and Saint, can it immediately

No worries Biltong, as i said, im sorry for what it brings on you mods but my i had to let some of my frustrations out.

by nottins_again Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:29 pm

The Saint wrote:

Christ not you again. I thought you had found a life .

Priceless. Pot, kettle and black springs to mind.

by mystiroakey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:30 pm

I thought the ref was very good today.

by phildange Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:31 pm

I didn't see a word about the final try, initiated from a scrum inside France's 22m, gone to the left, gone to the middle, all that with disorder, no speed and no clue except the desperate will of doing something, trying to stay alive, a kick and a recuperation, gone to the right, Nyanga the man, gone to the left and woof ...try, without any English hand touching the ball . I admit one try was lucky in my eyes, but this last one, I already saw that in some occasions from the French, it's more a matter of faith . And faith is not often rewarded in pro sport .

by **Notch** Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:32 pm

nottins_again wrote:
The Saint wrote:

Christ not you again. I thought you had found a life .

Priceless. Pot, kettle and black springs to mind.

Are you two going to resume the double act from the old 606? Because it can only end in tears lads. Best just put each other on ignore.

by BigTrevsbigmac Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:33 pm

Artful_Dodger wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:Really enjoyable game & could have gone either way. Quite often first games are boring & full of even more errors but this was good entertainment.

France have now been installed as 6N favourites & England are still triple crown favourites but who knows?

You haven't even seen two of the teams England will need to beat for that Triple Crown play yet.....

Artful, I'm going by Oddschecker

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:37 pm

My piece on the whole game , England awful with near on 70% possession they were like headless chickens! all this "expansive" tag is just embarrassing ,also to be out scored 3tries to 2 is unforgivable with all that territory and possession add that Nigel Owens just let England fly in every ruck from every angle always off their feet ,hanging on all the time ,Care stamping all over players they can count themselves lucky the likes of Rolland wasn't the ref.
Then Clive having the cheek to say England learned more from the game was so disrespectful ,this is the man who's always says in international rugby winning is all that matters! Why do England never lose? They always have a learning curve?

The French ,shocking fat slow and will not worry anyone in the championship, it is real testament to how poor England are right now if they couldn't put that French team away.

by nottins_again Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:38 pm

Notch wrote: Best just put each other on ignore.

No.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:44 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:My piece on the whole game , England awful with near on 70% possession they were like headless chickens! all this "expansive" tag is just embarrassing ,also to be out scored 3tries to 2 is unforgivable with all that territory and possession add that Nigel Owens just let England fly in every ruck from every angle always off their feet ,hanging on all the time ,Care stamping all over players they can count themselves lucky the likes of Rolland wasn't the ref.
Then Clive having the cheek to say England learned more from the game was so disrespectful ,this is the man who's always says in international rugby winning is all that matters! Why do England never lose? They always have a learning curve?

The French ,shocking fat slow and will not worry anyone in the championship, it is real testament to how poor England are right now if they couldn't put that French team away.

Lucky Wales were rustier than Brad Pitt's character in Ocean's Eleven, then! I respectfully disagree with you

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:45 pm

N.B. Brad Pitt's character in that film is Rusty

by The Great Aukster Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:47 pm

England have to get their back line sorted. With the current injuries Mike Brown is maybe the only guy who would be in the running for any of the other teams.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:48 pm

Yeah, Farrell certainly wouldn't... Oh, wait. I meant that other word. Would

by The Saint Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:50 pm

Notch wrote:
nottins_again wrote:
The Saint wrote:

Christ not you again. I thought you had found a life .

Priceless. Pot, kettle and black springs to mind.

Are you two going to resume the double act from the old 606? Because it can only end in tears lads. Best just put each other on ignore.

Notch

! I think he's hilarious to be honest,. You don't have to worry though, The Saint is a good poster.

by quinsforever Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:50 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:My piece on the whole game , England awful with near on 70% possession they were like headless chickens! all this "expansive" tag is just embarrassing ,also to be out scored 3tries to 2 is unforgivable with all that territory and possession add that Nigel Owens just let England fly in every ruck from every angle always off their feet ,hanging on all the time ,Care stamping all over players they can count themselves lucky the likes of Rolland wasn't the ref.
Then Clive having the cheek to say England learned more from the game was so disrespectful ,this is the man who's always says in international rugby winning is all that matters! Why do England never lose? They always have a learning curve?

The French ,shocking fat slow and will not worry anyone in the championship, it is real testament to how poor England are right now if they couldn't put that French team away.

this. Nyanga can count himself very fortunate, 1 yard from the french try line that he didnt get a straight yellow for refusing to take his arm off the ball despite being told by Owens. Care is 110% entitled to ruck his arm away. Was in full view of Owens and Owens immediately signalled penalty to England.

on your other points regarding Rolland and SCW, couldnt agree more. 2 people best put out to pasture IMO.

however you initial points re 70% possession and losing make you look a little out of touch with modern top-level international rugby. NZ had no more than 40% possession in any of their three games vs Eng, Fr or Ireland...so you cant simply draw conclusions from such a bare number.

by maverickmak Sat 01 Feb 2014, 9:55 pm

yappysnap wrote:
maverickmak wrote:People quick to have a go at Youngs' hooking but it a lost skill and almost no modern hooker does it consistently any more. England got penalised at the scrum when Hartley didnt hook it in the first Half.

Less his hooking and more his lineout throwing.

And yet strangely, he has among the highest lineout completion stats in Europe for Leicester.

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