France team v England

First topic message reminder :

http://www.espn.co.uk/six-nations-2014/rugby/story/211933.html

23 players picked - only 9 backs, so you can probably work out the backs - Fickou and Doussain on the bench ?

Forwards: Thomas Domingo (Clermont), Yannick Forestier (Castres), Benjamin Kayser (Clermont), Dimitri Szarzewski (Racing-Métro), Nicolas Mas (Montpellier), Rabah Slimani (Stade Français), Alexandre Flanquart (Stade Français), Yoann Maestri (Toulouse), Pascal Papé (Stade Français, captain), Bernard Le Roux (Racing-Métro), Antoine Burban (Stade Français), Yannick Nyanga (Toulouse), Damien Chouly (Clermont), Louis Picamoles (Toulouse).

Backs: Jean-Marc Doussain (Toulouse), Maxime Machenaud (Racing-Métro), Rémi Talès (Castres), Mathieu Bastareaud (Toulon), Gaël Fickou (Toulouse), Wesley Fofana (Clermont), Yoann Huget (Toulouse), Maxime Médard (Toulouse), Brice Dulin (Castres)

Lots of new names in there. Again. Tactic for England to beat this team = knacker Remi tales as early as possible ? Get Big Billy V running over him.

Bit disappointed not to see Michalak play in this years 6 nations. Will miss his comedy value.

Yes Geordiefalcon it is an indication that neither are us are convinced by Twelvetrees.

Plus that 10,12 and 13 is closest to Lancaster's favoured Farrell,Barritt,Tuilagi.

no 7 and 1/2 the problem is Twelvetrees has shown indifferent form for Gloucester plus for England in my opinion he hasn't really shown why there was all the hype.

When will he show he is Greenwood's successor?

Chequeredjersey you would pick Goode? Really

Play him next to the right partner and I think we'll see him perform better beshocked.

Only if you think drop goals every play is a good plan

7 1/2 i think Daly at 15 has been much to cover injuries for Wasps aswell. He played very well at 15...but 13 he is very good. And as Cumbrian mentioned he has a monster boot aswell.

I think with Tuilagi missing id love to see him get a run out...but with Barritt or Burrell at 12 and Farrell at 10 we still have a good solid defensive base aswell.

Its funny...we watch in awe and gush out praise at the skills of all the other teams players...yet when we have players capable of the same like JSD and potentially May, Daly, Eastmond etc we look straight at their deficiencies rather than what they offer.

Even the likes of Ashton are maligned and derided but no apologies are made that the tactics of this team are woeful and that no winger would look remotely good in this team at the moment.

GunsGerms wrote:Why not just pick Brown or Foden at full back. Both are outstanding? Leave Goode on the bench if he is so versatile.

Words fail me.

For the slow of reading

Brown is deservedly 1st choice FB right now

Foden would be 2nd choice right now if he wasnt injured, just for a change. Going back maybe 3 years he was the best FB and one of the best all round players we had

Goode's versatility does indeed make him a useful bench player. He wasnt the best English player last 6N by any measure but he did have his moments, not least in being a major contributor to the victory over Ireland in Ireland in appalling conditions

I have no worries with Goode on the bench, his club form is good and he can cover a number of positions, his the least of our worries to be honest.

I don't think SL should pick too many new caps for the 1st game in the 6 Nations as thats just asking for trouble, thats what the AI's are for imo.

Couple of point re goode.

With Foden and his first two wingers other than ashton out as well it leaves ancaster with the choice of either including Goode in the starting back 3 ( and shunting Brown back to the wing) or picking a winger/fullback who is way down his pecking order (like 4th choice)

The inclusion of Goode in the first 15 also makes the selection of the "walls of death" center partnerships suggested by others possible by having a player who can step in to the playmakers role.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:Couple of point re goode.

With Foden and his first two wingers other than ashton out as well it leaves ancaster with the choice of either including Goode in the starting back 3 ( and shunting Brown back to the wing) or picking a winger/fullback who is way down his pecking order (like 4th choice)

The inclusion of Goode in the first 15 also makes the selection of the "walls of death" center partnerships suggested by others possible by having a player who can step in to the playmakers role.

In theory it did that last year, except it mostly didn't work like that...

Right but in terms of "how england play" and the sides lancaster is realistically going to pick you have to say under current circumstance Goode has a strong chance of a starting spot.

I think its safe to say that if we end up starting with Brown at wing and Goode at FB then a lot of grown men will start crying.

New Caps in a 15 and 23 - How many is 'too' many?

Starting line-up, is three too many Depends on the positions I think, spread through out the team three isn't too bad. But we have 3 all stood next to each other.

We know we need at least 2 changes, 13 and 11, due to injuries. 14, well we all know about that one.

I think the 14 jersey is the last one he will pick out of the 15 and it'll be touch and go.

lostinwales wrote:I think its safe to say that if we end up starting with Brown at wing and Goode at FB then a lot of grown men will start crying.

Imagine it with Barritt at 13.
Possibly the slowest England 3/4 line in recent times. Ashton is hardly the most electric winger in world ruby and Brown no olympic class sprinter.

The question the is do they need searing breaks from turnovers in their own 22 or a side that can move the opposition into position mug them from the right end of the pitch.

I can honestly see them picking Dickson, Farrell, Twelvetrees, Barrit, Ashton, Brown, Goode for possibly the internets most hated backline since Jamie Noons last cap. (Ellis, Foode, Flutey, Noon, Cueto, Sackey Armitage ...in many ways a very similar line up)

Ashton is a guarenteed starter.

If Lancs does go for
9 Dickson
10 Farrell
11 Brown
12 Barritt
13 Burrell
14 Ashton
15 Goode

Then i will seriously start questioning Lancasters position as head coach.

Peter

Ashton might not have the side step or such...but he's not slow by any means.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ashton is a guarenteed starter.

If Lancs does go for
9 Dickinson
10 Farrell
11 Brown
12 Barritt
13 Burrell
14 Ashton
15 Goode

Then i will seriously start questioning Lancasters position as head coach.

Yeah picking an antiques show presenter at 9 is crazy

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ashton is a guarenteed starter.

If Lancs does go for
9 Dickinson
10 Farrell
11 Brown
12 Barritt
13 Burrell
14 Ashton
15 Goode

Then i will seriously start questioning Lancasters position as head coach.

Can we hire a hitman if we all chip in a bit?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Peter

Ashton might not have the side step or such...but he's not slow by any means.

No but nor is he the most electric of strike wingers (eg Varndell in his prime)

GeordieFalcon wrote:7 1/2 i think Daly at 15 has been much to cover injuries for Wasps aswell. He played very well at 15...but 13 he is very good. And as Cumbrian mentioned he has a monster boot aswell.

I think with Tuilagi missing id love to see him get a run out...but with Barritt or Burrell at 12 and Farrell at 10 we still have a good solid defensive base aswell.

Its funny...we watch in awe and gush out praise at the skills of all the other teams players...yet when we have players capable of the same like JSD and potentially May, Daly, Eastmond etc we look straight at their deficiencies rather than what they offer.

Even the likes of Ashton are maligned and derided but no apologies are made that the tactics of this team are woeful and that no winger would look remotely good in this team at the moment.

I think it's just as fans we are much more critical of our players.

E.g. North missed a horrible tackle vs Australia I believe but it was swept under the carpet. If an English player did a similar thing it would be mentioned all the time.

We saw what the supposedly "exciting" backline did against the Wolfhounds. Do I want to see more of this "exciting" players fold like a pack of cards vs France? No of course not.

Everyone gushes about Daly but he's another player who has been playing most of his rugby at 15 this season. Starting him at 13 would be a huge gamble - especially opposite Bastareaud.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Ashton is a guarenteed starter.

I prefer blind optimism and believe that he is very close to not making the team. If he does he is literally there to ensure we don't have 3 new caps in the first weekend of the 6 nations away in France. I almost feel kinda sorry for him if that is the case.

He's not slow. Unfortunately he can't really defend, his kicking game isn't great and he lacks impact. But in fairness he's not slow.

No hes not but equally hes not slow...hes got good pace

The problem is, as ive mentioned before, that with regards to England mentality....players offensive abilities are irrelevant if they cant tackle. Its so frustrating.

The mindset is always how do we stop them playing rather than let them be concerned with stopping us.

Varndell for example had flaws in his game yes...but as a strike runner was scintilating. NZ, Aus SA etc would have looked at his attacking skills and worked on his defensive side.

England however cant look past a poor defence and work rate...so the fact that he has electric pace and scores tries for fun and anything else is meaningless...and shoved on the scrapheap.

For what its worth, given all the press articles on Twelvetrees over the weekend, it sounds like he will be starting at 12.

I would prefer Burrell to start outside him, but can see the arguments for Barritt too. I expect to see something like this:

Dickson, Farrell, May, Twelvetrees, Burrell, Ashton, Brown

I refuse to believe Lancs would go back to having a full back on the wing again, surely May is the starting left wing?

Geordie, I have said this before elsewhere but I'll summarise anyway. I wouldn't pick Ashton for several reasons. I recognise for Sarries he plays well, he works hard to track the ball and scores a lot of tries I do not question this.

My problems are first he doesn't suit England's game plan for whatever reason. Second a man with 37 caps for his country and playing for an excellent club team should be able to defend. Third for England he lacks the impact at club level, which can be partly attributed to his not suiting the game plan.

I advocate picking wingers with a difference style, creative something from nothing types who beat defenders, have good foot work, elusive because I think that is what England need.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Why not just pick Brown or Foden at full back. Both are outstanding? Leave Goode on the bench if he is so versatile.

Words fail me.

Are you illiterate?

Yep. Obviously takes one to know one.

Looking at the Torygraph the current thinking does seem to be Burrell May and Nowell all starting.

Yeah why pick a full back on the wing when you can pick a center there? Good point





Burrel May and Nowell starting would a   but signals a real change in attitude.

Well to be fair to the telegraph they're nearly always 100% right...

9 ?
10 Farrell
11 Nowell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Burrell
14 May
15 Brown

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well to be fair to the telegraph they're nearly always 100% right...

9 ?
10 Farrell
11 Nowell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Burrell
14 May
15 Brown

If we pick that backline I think England will lose. Of course Farrell would be the only one to get blamed of course.....

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Why not just pick Brown or Foden at full back. Both are outstanding? Leave Goode on the bench if he is so versatile.

Words fail me.

Are you illiterate?

Yep. Obviously takes one to know one.

Well a stupid post deserves a stupid response.

I think I'd have May and Nowell the other way round:

11. May
14. Nowell

But I'd be ruddy happy if they are right.

9 will be Dickson

Cumbrian wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Twelvetrees is getting a bit of a raw deal. His midfield partner hardly helped in the AIs. He has to start.

Agree.

A midfield of:

10. Owen Farrell
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Elliott Daly

has a bit of zip about it too.

That has some nice potential as a midfield. The only issue for me is that 36, whilst a big lad isn't a smasher of a carrier. He's good but doesn't make the ground of a Roberts or Bast. He'd work well with Daly i'm sure but I do feel we'd need more of a running threat from 9 and 10 to make up for the lack of heavy carriers at centre.

Daly showed what he could offer though in that Saxons game and as well as some nice running and passing he has a nice kicking game. I just hope he gets more time there for Wasps.

Well Lancaster did mention there was a chance of picking 3 new caps, although one of those is already capped. I guess Watson wouldve been the other in with a shout.

But really that would be a huge radical overhaul to chuck all those guys in as a unit, especially as the first game of a tournament.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Why not just pick Brown or Foden at full back. Both are outstanding? Leave Goode on the bench if he is so versatile.

Words fail me.

Are you illiterate?

Yep. Obviously takes one to know one.

Well a stupid post deserves a stupid response.

I think the reason he made that post was because none of us, even Beshocked, were saying anything other than Brown should start and Goode cover 15 from the bench, though it was a little needless to be honest, Lostinwales, I think Guns&Germs (great book) was aiming his rhetorical question to the England selectors not us

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well to be fair to the telegraph they're nearly always 100% right...

9 ?
10 Farrell
11 Nowell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Burrell
14 May
15 Brown

If we pick that backline I think England will lose. Of course Farrell would be the only one to get blamed of course.....

Not at all...Ashton will come off the bench...they'll both take the flack!   

Incidently im not sure they would lose...

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well to be fair to the telegraph they're nearly always 100% right...

9 ?
10 Farrell
11 Nowell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Burrell
14 May
15 Brown

If we pick that backline I think England will lose. Of course Farrell would be the only one to get blamed of course.....

Why? Because of the centres?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well to be fair to the telegraph they're nearly always 100% right...

9 ?
10 Farrell
11 Nowell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Burrell
14 May
15 Brown

If we pick that backline I think England will lose. Of course Farrell would be the only one to get blamed of course.....

Not at all...Ashton will come off the bench...they'll both take the flack!   

Incidently im not sure they would lose...

We'll play that backline and we'll win, but it still won't be attacking rugby and the tries will come from the back 3 countering or the pack

No Ashton and no idea at 9.

Does look very much like Lancaster is looking for players with a certain kind of mindset above anything else, and I wonder if the new performance guy is contributing to this. I guess Nowell has shown in training to have the right stuff.

Pretty sure the Telegraph say Dickson at 9?

PSW exactly. 3 new caps would be quite a big risk - especially France away.

Geordiefalcon surely you mean Goode? Ashton will either start or not be in the 23 at all.

Well that backline would disappoint me - so little experience.

So much for Lancaster the conservative selector. What will they complain about now?

Interesting times

Well reading Lancasters latest article he seems to have given up on any hope of setting a great legacy from the next world cup and is already asking to be judged on the one after ... so it makes sense for him to be picking 15 year olds now in the hope they will be out of school by the time 2019 comes around.

beshocked wrote:Well that backline would disappoint me - so little experience.

Which they will never get unless they play.

I think we need to have confidence in a youth system which prepares these players and coaches which I hope to God know what they are doing.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well to be fair to the telegraph they're nearly always 100% right...

9 ?
10 Farrell
11 Nowell
12 Twelvetrees
13 Burrell
14 May
15 Brown

Think May and Nowell will be the other way around GF but that's certainly a more positive back line, in intent at least. If the pack goes well then they've got a good chance. Nowell is a strong defender and runner, May is the magician but I do worry about his loose play sometimes.

If that's what they go for then it's a serious vote of confidence in Farrell and Twelvetrees' leadership qualities.

lostinwales wrote:So much for Lancaster the conservative selector. What will they complain about now?

Interesting times

Well if he picks that side and they lose there will be plenty to complain about.

little badger didn't realise an opening match like France away was the perfect to blood youngsters. Nowell has barely played any club rugby let alone international rugby.

You can be confident. I think this is a big risk which could backfire horrifically.

If Lancaster makes this gamble and it pays off I will hold up my hands and say I was wrong but if England lose because of these selections......

little_badger wrote:

beshocked wrote:Well that backline would disappoint me - so little experience.

Which they will never get unless they play.

I think we need to have confidence in a youth system which prepares these players and coaches which I hope to God know what they are doing.

Yeah but wasnt the backline they had before supposed to be the product of said system?

Are we at a stage where players careers should be limited to 2 years incase the next guy off the line would be better with two years experience (at which point he will be dropped for the next generation and so on)

If this does happen is essentially a huge admission form Lancaster that hes got his wide backs horribly wrong since day 1, whilst most likely doing nothing about the lack of running thereat from the half backs.

Although to be fair its also arguable that none of those players would be first choice if everyone else (Fode, Yarde, Wade, Tuilagi) were fit these chaps wouldbt get a look in at all and that their selection is just saying to the previous second choices you havent done enough.

I dunno to me it looks like a car crash side. I want to hate it as, as much as the goode brown barrit axis. But lets wait and see. It really does seem like you never know with england.

little_badger wrote:

beshocked wrote:Well that backline would disappoint me - so little experience.

Which they will never get unless they play.

I think we need to have confidence in a youth system which prepares these players and coaches which I hope to God know what they are doing.

Agreed, it's one thing having a balance of experience but if it hampers the whole style you're going for than there's little point. The youth system is a good one and all of those players are playing regularly at a high level. Lancs sets a lot of store by how they perform in training and without impressing there they wouldn't be making the team.

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:If this does happen is essentially a huge admission form Lancaster that hes got his wide backs horribly wrong since day 1, whilst most likely doing nothing about the lack of running thereat from the half backs.

Although to be fair its also arguable that none of those players would be first choice if everyone else (Fode, Yarde, Wade, Tuilagi) were fit these chaps wouldbt get a look in at all and that their selection is just saying to the previous second choices you havent done enough.

I think the second paragraph here is the point. Farrell is Lancaster's clear first choice. Twelvetrees started 7/10 of our test matches in 2013 (Injury played a part in that of course, but continuing with him hardly represents a huge shift in Lancaster's thinking). Brown started every test in 2013, eventually shifting to full back in the Autumn. Meanwhile Tuilagi, Wade, Yarde and Foden are all injured. The only real mistake that this selection would reflect is that he has stuck wit Ashton too long and, in Lancaster's defence, he was planning to drop him in the autumn anyway before injuries.

EDIT: Actually it was 6/10 for Twelvetrees. I forgot he missed the second Argentina game to join the Lions.

Could we see:

9. Youngs
10. Ford

12. Farrell
13. Burrell

Suits in with SL's distributor at 12 and direct runner at 13.

ChequeredJersey wrote:
I think the reason he made that post was because none of us, even Beshocked, were saying anything other than Brown should start and Goode cover 15 from the bench, though it was a little needless to be honest, Lostinwales, I think Guns&Germs (great book) was aiming his rhetorical question to the England selectors not us

That pretty much sums it up. Yes it is a cracking book.