New Zealand v India 4th ODI, Hamilton

First topic message reminder :

After the exciting tie in the last game , the series is still alive. It moves to Hamilton for the 4th game.
India may not change the combination that tied the last game. It remains to be seen whether Kyle Mills might return to the side on a slowish track where his cutters could be handy. But the way Hamish Bennett troubled the Indian batsmen in the last game, that will be a very difficult call for Brendon McCullum.

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Dhoni doesn't have wicket taking fast bowlers in ODIs. The line and length stuff is not what he wants, but that's all he has to really work with as Umesh Yadav is not much of a strike bowler in ODIs and Aaron is mostly injured, and now that he's come back, his pace has gone down as well.

Dhoni did not take well to Robin and Prasad who had seen him as a young / junior cricketer and didn't give him the "respect"
Since Prasad is gone Indian bowling has gone downhill.

You are saying "Dhoni gets trundlers..so what can he do"

I am saying Dhoni wants trundlers ( asking for line and length type restrictive bowlers).....and he gets what he wants.
when a fast bowler is given to him...he steers them towards line-length / control and kills the raw aggression that these guys thrives on.

The problem Re: Fast Bowling is Dhoni in my view and not the lack of quality fast  bowlers.

Munaf Patel became a military medium bowler under Dravid, Nehra gave up pace for line and length under Ganguly. Zaheer reinvented himself as a bowler with reduced pace under the captaincy of Dravid.
India usually don't produce real fast bowlers, Yadav and Aaron are the 2 we have had in a long time. They both maintain that they'd stick to bowling fast, and Dhoni has in fact encouraged them. But If you are neither taking wickets nor keeping the runs down, you just aren't doing your duties. What Dhoni said yesterday was so true. If you keep bowling short and wide, no matter how many fielders you have got, you are going to travel. Even the military medium bowlers that came into the Indian side recently, like Vinay Kumar, could never maintain a consistent line and length, and at their pace such bowlers would be destroied by international batsmen.
If we are to produce fast bowlers, the work has to start from the basic levels. Yadav and Aaron came through not because of the system, but despite it. Aaron is a bit one-demsional as a bowler in the sense that he doesn't offer much more than pace, but Yadav is a different case, he has other skills, he can bowl a good bouncer, he can reverse the ball at pace. But reverse is no longer a particular strongpoint in ODIs because of the 2 new ball rule. Yadav has to come back into the test side in place of Ishant Sharma. He had an underwhelming Ranji season whenever he played, and he was coming back from injury. So not picking him for the South Africa tests is understandable. But I would hope he's back for the tests against New Zealand. I would in fact want Yadav to focus on test cricket for now.
Praveen Kumar's temperamental and injury issues are a significant setback to India. He would have been a real handful on these tracks, particularly with the 2 new balls.

msp83 wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:4 single digit scores in his last 5 consecutive ODI innings for everyone's lovechild Rahane. But apparently a bloke who averaged 50 last year and has scored 100 runs more in this series is a bigger problem.

Not that I think either should be in the side but the double standards never cease to amaze me.

Rahane has 4 single digit scores in his last 5 games, but not a run of 5 ODIs lets not forget.
Non-performance is not acceptable from anyone including Rahane. But the Guy Who Averaged 50 Last Year had a pattern of 4 decent performances out of 40 before last year, and he got a lot more than a fair share of chances. That's where the difference. If Rahane is not dropped for the next game, this will be the first full series he gets after 2011.
While it's up to Rahane to take the opportunities that comes his way, the comparison with the pampered boy is not fair at all.

C'mon msp, Rahane has 8 single digit scores in his last 11 ODI innings. Its not as if he's been dropped after 1 ODI everytime (and even if he was, those are desperately poor figures). He's got 4 to 5 ODIs in a row. He got 4 ODIs in a row against Pak and England last year before being ditched for Nohit at Mohali. 4 ODIs may seem too short a run but what do you do when 3 of those produce single digit scores? If he had even got starts, he'd have probably got a longer rope. Now he has had 5 ODIs in a row again (the washout at Centurion excluded) and once again, 4 of those are single digit scores. How exactly do you expect the captain to give a rope to someone who reaches double figures every 4th innings??? Even Rohit at least used to get starts during all those years of frustration. Rahane has played 22 ODIs now, whether scattered or at a stretch, that record of his is nothing short of WOEFUL. He'd struggle to make the Zimbabwe side with that record.

ShankyCricket wrote:

msp83 wrote:

ShankyCricket wrote:4 single digit scores in his last 5 consecutive ODI innings for everyone's lovechild Rahane. But apparently a bloke who averaged 50 last year and has scored 100 runs more in this series is a bigger problem.

Not that I think either should be in the side but the double standards never cease to amaze me.

Rahane has 4 single digit scores in his last 5 games, but not a run of 5 ODIs lets not forget.
Non-performance is not acceptable from anyone including Rahane. But the Guy Who Averaged 50 Last Year had a pattern of 4 decent performances out of 40 before last year, and he got a lot more than a fair share of chances. That's where the difference. If Rahane is not dropped for the next game, this will be the first full series he gets after 2011.
While it's up to Rahane to take the opportunities that comes his way, the comparison with the pampered boy is not fair at all.

C'mon msp, Rahane has 8 single digit scores in his last 11 ODI innings. Its not as if he's been dropped after 1 ODI everytime (and even if he was, those are desperately poor figures). He's got 4 to 5 ODIs in a row. He got 4 ODIs in a row against Pak and England last year before being ditched for Nohit at Mohali. 4 ODIs may seem too short a run but what do you do when 3 of those produce single digit scores? If he had even got starts, he'd have probably got a longer rope. Now he has had 5 ODIs in a row again (the washout at Centurion excluded) and once again, 4 of those are single digit scores. How exactly do you expect the captain to give a rope to someone who reaches double figures every 4th innings??? Even Rohit at least used to get starts during all those years of frustration. Rahane has played 22 ODIs now, whether scattered or at a stretch, that record of his is nothing short of WOEFUL. He'd struggle to make the Zimbabwe side with that record.

As I said, Rahane has a lot to blame him for all those missed opportunities. If he needs any example, there is no need to look pass Virat Kohli. When Kohli started out in international cricket, he came in as first reserve in many games in different batting positions. But he took all the chances that came his way scored centuries and half-centuries and made himself a first choice player.
But they are not all like Kohli. Kohli himself took a bit of time to get going ion test matches. As a player with a sound technique and a fine domestic record, Rahane should be given a fair run in the side. Rahane has so far in his ODI career, a couple of poor games away from being dropped. Even in the England series he was dropped 2 games after he scored 47. That score is a lot less than 147 and perhaps Rahane should have converted it into a knock of 147, but the likes of Rohit would have got a free pass for a year at least with a score like under his belt. Rahane had a pretty decent debut series in England and started the return series well, but again a couple of failures down the line, he was yet again ditched. The belief that you would get a run in the side can make a significant difference to a player. Rohit has had far more than his due share of fair runs, Rahane had none. Perhaps Rahane might not get one, so he better look at Kohli rather than the pampered teammate of his from Mumbai, and better make the chances that comes his way.

Rahane is not really helping himself, that much I have to agree. The way his ODI record stands at this moment, is downright atrocious for a player of his ability.

By the way I had a relook at R Ashwin's and Stuart Binny's records. The more I look at it, the more perplexed I am about Binny's selection. His List A record is pretty poor for an international player. R Ashwin, despite not getting much of opportunities to bat in the top 6 averages only 2 runs less than Binny in List A cricket. Ashwin has played half of his List A games for India and batted at 8 or 9 in most of them. Binny gets to bat in the top 6 for Karnataka more often than not. Ashwin's test average is also better than that of Binny. Ravindra Jadeja also has a better batting record in both First Class as well as List A cricket than that of Binny. The number 6 slot is by no means is his rightful one and the team management was quite right in batting both Jadeja and Ashwin ahead of him in the last game.
For the next game, I hope they bring Shikhar Dhawan back in and drop Binny, and drop Varun Aaron or Bhuvneshwar Kumar for Ishwar Pandey. And if Dhoni is looking at some parttime bowling option, think he should consider Dhawan as well. He has taken a few List A wickets and seems to be a useful parttimer at that level.

Whichever way you spin it, 22 ODIs is a decent run even if its not on the trot. And you can't expect a decent run when you keep getting out in single figures. Rohit used to at least get starts.
Plus Rahane doesn't have a good domestic one day record. The likes of Pujara, Tiwary, Rayudu and even Vijay have a far greater reason to complain about lack of chances than Rahane.

I don't thinl you can expect a run of more than 5 games on the trot if you're being dismissed in single figures on 4 of those occasions. Esp considering the players who are sitting out.

If Rahane fails again in the final ODI, how do you justify picking him ahead of Pujara for the Asia Cup?

And I fail to see why anyone with a List A average of less than 35 should be expected to do well in ODIs. Not only the likes of Vijay, Pujara and Tiwary but players like even Unmukt Chand, KL Rahul, Abhinav Mukund have a far better List A record than Rahane. But apparently Rahane is unlucky!

Pujara has to be picked, doesn't matter Rahane or no Rahane, or for that matter anyone other than Kohli and Dhoni.......

You know very well that average is not the only decisive factor when picking a player for international cricket. Mukund has major technical issues, same is the case with Chand. KL Rahul is early into his domestic career, lets see how he goes about. He's considered one for the future and is already around the A team structure.

msp83 wrote:By the way I had a relook at R Ashwin's and Stuart Binny's records. The more I look at it, the more perplexed I am about Binny's selection. His List A record is pretty poor for an international player. R Ashwin, despite not getting much of opportunities to bat in the top 6 averages only 2 runs less than Binny in List A cricket. Ashwin has played half of his List A games for India and batted at 8 or 9 in most of them. Binny gets to bat in the top 6 for Karnataka more often than not. Ashwin's test average is also better than that of Binny. Ravindra Jadeja also has a better batting record  in both First Class as well as List A cricket than that of Binny. The number 6 slot is by no means is his rightful one and the team management was quite right in batting both Jadeja and Ashwin ahead of him in the last game.
For the next game, I hope they bring Shikhar Dhawan back in and drop Binny, and drop Varun Aaron or Bhuvneshwar Kumar for Ishwar Pandey. And if Dhoni is looking at some parttime bowling option, think he should consider Dhawan as well. He has taken a few List A wickets and seems to be a useful parttimer at that level.

List-A is hardly ever seen in India for selections.

selectors look at ranji/ Duleep to judge potential to select for India-A and India
and IPL to in addition to Ranji to determine limited overs potential

msp83 wrote:By the way I had a relook at R Ashwin's and Stuart Binny's records. The more I look at it, the more perplexed I am about Binny's selection. His List A record is pretty poor for an international player. R Ashwin, despite not getting much of opportunities to bat in the top 6 averages only 2 runs less than Binny in List A cricket. Ashwin has played half of his List A games for India and batted at 8 or 9 in most of them. Binny gets to bat in the top 6 for Karnataka more often than not. Ashwin's test average is also better than that of Binny. Ravindra Jadeja also has a better batting record  in both First Class as well as List A cricket than that of Binny.

msp83 wrote:You know very  well that average is not the only decisive factor when picking a player for international cricket.

But noone has double standards for Rahane right?   

Peter Seabiscuit Wheeler wrote:

msp83 wrote:By the way I had a relook at R Ashwin's and Stuart Binny's records. The more I look at it, the more perplexed I am about Binny's selection. His List A record is pretty poor for an international player. R Ashwin, despite not getting much of opportunities to bat in the top 6 averages only 2 runs less than Binny in List A cricket. Ashwin has played half of his List A games for India and batted at 8 or 9 in most of them. Binny gets to bat in the top 6 for Karnataka more often than not. Ashwin's test average is also better than that of Binny. Ravindra Jadeja also has a better batting record  in both First Class as well as List A cricket than that of Binny.  

msp83 wrote:You know very  well that average is not the only decisive factor when picking a player for international cricket.

But noone has double standards for Rahane right?   

'Only' was the operational word there, PSW.
Binny hasn't proved himself to be able to graft when the situation demands, he hasn't scored big tons regularly in any forms of domestic cricket. With the ball he doesn't swing it, doesn't seam it much and bowls at no great pace.
So yeah, it is just not about the average which also is poor.

msp83 wrote:You know very well that average is not the only decisive factor when picking a player for international cricket. Mukund has major technical issues, same is the case with Chand. KL Rahul is early into his domestic career, lets see how he goes about. He's considered one for the future and is already around the A team structure.

msp, I'm not saying those guys should be picked in the ODI side. Just putting things into perspective as to how bad Rahane's domestic one day record is when players like Chand have a better record than him. So this "unlucky" theory doesn't cut it for me.
Pujara, Tiwary and Vijay would all be better picks in ODIs.