Why Wlad's reign is of no significance

First topic message reminder :

I get a little tired of people telling me that Wlad's reign as HW Champ is significant. All they can point to is longevity, that's it.

Here is why is doesn't matter:

He has lost to three journeyman in the worst era of HW boxing.
He cheats to win. Leaning all over opponents the way he does is cheating, plain and simple. His performance versus Povetkin was one of the most disgraceful performances I have ever seen.
He has zero wins of significance on his record. And the best wins he has were not inspiring (see Povetkin).
He cannot fight inside at all.
He fights scared.
He doesn't inspire, in fact, he turns people away from the sport.

Wlad is not a great champ, and as for these p4p rankings I see him in, does anybody believe Wlad would compete on a p4p level? Nope.

As a man, i am sure he is a decent fella, but let's not pretend his reign is meaningful.

Longevity of reign is not always an indicator of quality, sometimes it's just a measure of time.

I doubt Haye beats either of them, in my opinion the Rock would brutalize a small heavy with low punch output like Haye pretty easily and i dont see it lasting 5 rounds.

Think I agree with Hogey on this, expect Haye to deal better with the technician than the relentless brawler.

this looks like the type of thread written by people who believe Rocky V never happened, and that Godfather 3 was just a bad night terror

What a surprise another regurgitated pop at Louis. Imagine Haye fighting Louis's schedule ? He pulls out when his asked to fight once every 18 month , never mind fighting regular, he's have a season ticket in the hospital theatre.

As for Haye beating every opponent, this is a fighter who scraped past Valuev. He can't slip or parry a jab, he's be another victim on Louis's bum of the month.

Cheers Rodders

hogey wrote:I doubt Haye beats either of them, in my opinion the Rock would brutalize a small heavy with low punch output like Haye pretty easily and i dont see it lasting 5 rounds.

I think Marciano is made for Haye..... Haye lands his 215 pound huge right and the rock goes.....

Have to remember Marciano was 187 ish..........and was decked off old Archie and Walcott......

He wasn't all that.......Though a great champion of his day........but fought with his face..

I'd pick Haye to beat Louis too....If he believed in himself......He couldn't take Haye's shot either......

These guys were great fighters of their day!!......but when anybody tells you that Louis stands in front of a bombing Foreman who blew away "BIG" guys like Norton, Frazier and the like...........Then you know he gets overrated on here..and means you should watch footage yourself and make up your own mind than believe the rosy-fruiters !!

Foreman kills Louis with the wind of one of his hooks.......But in fairness to Louis Boxing had moved on then.......

But Louis record doesn't stand up to scrutiny.......No different to Tyson's in cleaning up the left over garbage.from days gone by !!.......

So ease up on Wlad..

Haye beats Louis ? On what form ? You've lost the plot.
Ali couldn't take Coopers shot, I guess he'd beat him too.

Joe would decapitate Haye's dreadlocked head and bury him the Australian jungle.

Cheers Rodders

For a man you rate as the no.2 HW of all time you have a pretty low opinion of Louis both in terms of ability and record Truss, why do rate him so high?

Every decent fighter Louis ever beat was well beaten beforehand............Never had a defining fight unless you call a guy weighing 170 pounds .......

Where is the Foreman on his list ??.......Or even a Liston..

Braddock types had all been found out before.....as I alluded to earlier...One more big payday types like Baer...

Haye is better than anything Louis didn't go 1-1 against.......

and you rate Louis number 1 ........Oh my gawd..

Say it again when the universal number 2 never beat anybody.......People shouldn't be so hard on Wlad........

You've got a lot to offer Rod.......but you are way out on Joseph..and other b/w heavies.

Do think with many on here the glass is always half empty when it comes to Wlad. As I said earlier I am by no means arguing he is a top ten guy, or that I would want to watch a career box set of his work.

However he is on a run now of some eight years unbeaten, and the obvious issue around fighting his brother aside he has spent most of those years as the widely accepted best at the weight. Whilst I am not going to argue his opposition represents a high spot for the sport Wlad has done what he can within his era, i.e. when a fighter emerges as either a perceived or real threat he fights them and beats them, normally clearly. Remember before their fight many were saying Haye was the man to turn him over, when he spectacularly failed to do so do not recall any of those same posters reassessing their opinions of Wlad or giving him too much credit for performing better than they expected.

People rightly say this is a poor era for the division but it sure as hell ain’t the first. The 30’s post Tunney, Pre Louis were absolute drivel and nobody managed to assert themselves over that era in the manner Wlad has.

As Truss has alluded to there does seem to be double standards applied when it coms to Wlad, people will decry his level of opposition, but have no issue having Johnson in their top five. Do Johnson’s opponents as champion really represent a better set of contenders than Wlad has beaten. Also in Wlad’s instance his opponents at least represent the best that are sensibly available, bold man that makes the same claim for Johnson.

Jeff can you ban me, please ? So I don't have to do this again.

Cheers Rodders

Haye beats Joe Louis. Really? Need to be a little more subtle.

Rodney wrote:Jeff can you ban me, please ? So I don't have to do this again.

Cheers Rodders

No you can suffer like the rest of us.

Always makes me laugh when people say daft stuff like 180lb HW's of the past would "spark" modern HW's.

Wlad's boring style doesn't help his popularity, but if being exciting was so important then Floyd Mayweather wouldn't make it into todays top 100. Wlad's main problem is that he isn't American. If WK was born in the US and called Bill Johnson he'd be the biggest star in the whole of sport for the last 10 years. Who was the last non-American HW susperstar?...there isn't one, because if the HW champ isn't American we all get the old "we're not trying anymore" toys out of the pram excuse.

"Do Johnson’s opponents as champion really represent a better set of contenders than Wlad has beaten"

Yes. Although you could draw basic comparisons to argue a point you couldn't place any of Wlads opponents inside the top 100 of all time.. The same can't be levelled at Johnson.

In fairness to Johnson he did beat a top 10 heavy...........Despite him being past it...In Jeffries.....and a succesful heavy champ.........in Burns.

Jeffries did say he wouldn't have had a prayer in his prime........and I think he's right..........

Louis beat an oft-beat Braddock and never near mastered anybody near a top 20 slot in the alltime heavy ranks.......Unless you're nice and credit him with 2-0 over Walcott........

He didn't credit himself with two wins so why should anyone else..

Louis is 2 because of longevity alone.........on my list........I have Johnson 3....

Wlad is top 12/15 also because of the same.......He's marked down because of BRO..

Which of Johnson's opponents as champion rank so highly. Surely you can't give him too much credit for a six years retired Jeffries, unless we are going to proclaim Ali as Holmes' finest hour.

Funny thing is the ones on here like Haz and Rodders who mark mayweather down for not fighting anybody..

Have Louis as number 1 at heavy........

You can laugh or cry.............take your pick..  

Rowley wrote:Which of Johnson's opponents as champion rank so highly. Surely you can't give him too much credit for a six years retired Jeffries, unless we are going to proclaim Ali as Holmes' finest hour.

Nope, don't give it huge amounts of weight other than the historical significance of White America sending out their big hope, only for him to receive a massive spanking.

Burns (as you mentioned), Jeanette, Langford, Bob Fitz. And naturally I'm going on career and not title reign, I wouldn't have Wlad that high (30th or so) as he simply doesn't have anyone who's any better than mediocre - not his fault that every other HW is crud but using the same stick we can't allow leeway when ranking him either.

Really surprised that you put so much worth on Louis's longevity Truss, - this seems to contradict the position that you have taken in the past that quality not quantity is the measure of a reign. If Louis get to no. 2 by simply making more defences, it suggests that you don't have much time for the like of Holmes , Lewis etc- HWs with decent reigns over what you presumably must think are equally poor opposition?

Louis held the title not a alphabet belt and fought still to this day a record number of number 1 contenders. Who would you have liked him to face ?

Cheers Rodders

Like I say I just think people make the criteria to suit when it comes to Wlad. As Truss has said people mark Floyd down for failing to beat the best available opponents, but put no stock in Wlad doing just that. People put Langford forward as a great win for Johnson, but I do have to ask if Wlad was to have beaten a two year novice who was fighting welterweights a year previous folk would offer him such praise for it. Jennette and Langford are truly great fighters but both were novices when Johnson beat them and even then he failed to assert anything approaching dominance in his series with Joe.

People slaughter Wlad for not unifying against his own brother, but have no issue with Holmes doing likewise, despite being unrelated to his fellow belt holders. As I have said from the off I am not arguing Wlad is a top ten guy or up along side the likes of Holmes, Johnson or Lewis but do think people fit the criteria to suit them to some extent. Not too worried if I am in the minority on this but I struggle to come up with objective criteria that sees him outside the top 20.

Rodders, in response to your question the same could be asked of Wlad.

I'm just adding perspective.........

For 6 years I've had to read guff like "Louis controls the center of the ring against Foreman jabs him into submission and then knocks him out in 5"........When big guys with good chins have had to back off exclusively because Foreman has eaten them up with his power punches and presence etc.....

It's all bs................Anyone with that Louis style and chin probably loses to at least 20 modern heavies.......Wlad beats him easy.....Lewis kills him...

Tired of this guy ruling a "great era full of quality"........When one can see schmelling, Sharkey, Braddock all fought the same one dimensional way........

Nat fleischer thought Dempsey knocked Ali out...........and unfortunately it's the same on here with some but swap Louis for Dempsey......

It was a crud era ...he dominated it and that's why he's number 2.......

But don't try to kid me he was anything special...............Conn showed he wasn't.

All BS.........Just as Nicklaus owning Woods..........

I'm not fond on Wlads style , but can't be over critical , never been a believer that any era is particulary poor. To establish yourself as the dominant force in any era is a major accomplishment.

I think Wlads stock will rise once he retires whether we like it or not I believe he will be a top 15 in time to come. Wlad is dreadful to watch and the manner of his victories, result in a less favourable position.

Cheers Rodders

You seem to base everything on hypothetical matchups Truss, you say Wlad would kill him, on what basis ?

Louis fought and destroyed big men , are you saying Louis is less skilled and doesn't punch as hard as a Lamont Brewster, Sam Peter & Corrie Sanders ? All who've had Wlad on Queer Street. It's a weak argument.

Cheers Rodders

I saw your top 10 heavy list Rod..............Number 10 was filled up before we'd reached the 50s.......

I imagine Wlad is somewhere around 75 going by that...with Ali  at 62 !!  

I just wrote he never fought anyone decent who hadn't been trashed apart from 170 pound Billy...and now you are spinning I base everything on dream matchups.....

Nice try.

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:Funny thing is the ones on here like Haz and Rodders who mark mayweather down for not fighting anybody..

Have Louis as number 1 at heavy........

You can laugh or cry.............take your pick..  

Is it not the case that they mark him down for not fighting his biggest challengers, as opposed to saying he fought nobodies??

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:Always makes me laugh when people say daft stuff like 180lb HW's of the past would "spark" modern HW's.

Wlad's boring style doesn't help his popularity, but if being exciting was so important then Floyd Mayweather wouldn't make it into todays top 100. Wlad's main problem is that he isn't American. If WK was born in the US and called Bill Johnson he'd be the biggest star in the whole of sport for the last 10 years. Who was the last non-American HW susperstar?...there isn't one, because if the HW champ isn't American we all get the old "we're not trying anymore" toys out of the pram excuse.

Lennox Lewis

horizontalhero wrote:Really surprised that you put so much worth on Louis's longevity Truss, - this seems to contradict the position that you have taken in the past that quality not quantity is the measure of a reign. If Louis get to no. 2 by simply making more defences, it  suggests that you don't have much time for the like of Holmes , Lewis etc- HWs with decent reigns over what you presumably must think are equally poor opposition?

We talking about the same Truss??

15 yrs at the top.......
16 yrs at the top......
17 yrs at the top......

Lewis wasn't a superstar...........

Tyson was the last..Heavy superstar and he was American..

Maybe Fitzsimmons was..

Well every HW seems to destroy Louis by your theory im surprised his in your top 100. Ali's prime was almost 50 year ago so boxing hasn't transcended since then and all Alis opponents could beat today's fighters. Just the way you spin it to protect your pet fighters.

Khan was pointless and a waste of time , now his fighting Floyd, the lad is a reincarnation of Tommy Hearns, brilliant!

Cheers Rodders

Louis is my number 2............I'll reiterate............

Braddock, Baer, schmelling, sharkey, Carnera had all been well beaten before he did it...

However Holmes beat a lot of crap as well...........as did Johnson.........and Foreman's star didn't shine long enough..

Though these are my top 5..........

Which is why I don't hammer Wlad like some..

These threads are always good for a laugh.

Seeing as Klitschko and Haye hammer Louis lets see how far down the current top heavyweights we have to go before Louis manages a win.

Tyson Fury? I guess hes way too big so he should beat Louis. Same goes for David Price. Derek Chisora? Would Louis have a shot against him?

You should know the drill Catchweight. The list goes right down to 170lbs. Truss hasn't bothered to counter the reason why Wlad won not beat but would kill Louis.

Can you imagine Wlad fighting a puncher like Louis , he'd be absolutely petrified beyond belief.

Cheers Rodders

Valuev is a very underrated heavyweight as well. He was over 300 pounds. The superest of the super heavyweights. But he rarely gets a mention. He was just very unfortunate he came along when Haye and the Klitschkos were around. Otherwise he could have been the greatest.

This guy really is dumb..

LOL

TopHat24/7 wrote:

horizontalhero wrote:Really surprised that you put so much worth on Louis's longevity Truss, - this seems to contradict the position that you have taken in the past that quality not quantity is the measure of a reign. If Louis get to no. 2 by simply making more defences, it  suggests that you don't have much time for the like of Holmes , Lewis etc- HWs with decent reigns over what you presumably must think are equally poor opposition?

We talking about the same Truss??

15 yrs at the top.......
16 yrs at the top......
17 yrs at the top......

I'll ignore the idiot..

Oh look Toppy has made a contribution.........

Il cherish even just one of TRUSSMANs 21,000 posts being in response to me. Even if its just to inform me Im being ignored or an idiot. It still counts.

Calm down kiddo......and write something interesting...

and give Trussy a kiss......But no tongues....  

Trussie, do you have a job? Is it pressing a button for the car park barrier to lift at your local Aldi store? Just wondering, as 21000 posts is rather a lot so you can't be too busy....?

And back on topic. Wlads longevity doesn't count for much when it's not a criteria I'd use - Ottke went for how long but isn't in anyone's ATG list at the weight etc

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:Always makes me laugh when people say daft stuff like 180lb HW's of the past would "spark" modern HW's.

Wlad's boring style doesn't help his popularity, but if being exciting was so important then Floyd Mayweather wouldn't make it into todays top 100. Wlad's main problem is that he isn't American. If WK was born in the US and called Bill Johnson he'd be the biggest star in the whole of sport for the last 10 years. Who was the last non-American HW susperstar?...there isn't one, because if the HW champ isn't American we all get the old "we're not trying anymore" toys out of the pram excuse.

Lennox Lewis

No better example.

As mentioned, despite being the best HW of the 90's early 2000's, Lewis wasn't anything like a superstar. Shunned from massive fights against the likes of Tyson/Bowe/Holyfield, and completely dismissed by the US boxing media/experts simply because he wasn't American.

Shunned from massive fights?

Out of those three, he fought 1 of them twice, Tyson was paid to avoid him was he not and Bowe ditched his belts in the bin rather than lose them to him.

That's not shunned, that's avoided. And it was because he was good/dangerous, not because he wasn't American.

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:Always makes me laugh when people say daft stuff like 180lb HW's of the past would "spark" modern HW's.

Wlad's boring style doesn't help his popularity, but if being exciting was so important then Floyd Mayweather wouldn't make it into todays top 100. Wlad's main problem is that he isn't American. If WK was born in the US and called Bill Johnson he'd be the biggest star in the whole of sport for the last 10 years. Who was the last non-American HW susperstar?...there isn't one, because if the HW champ isn't American we all get the old "we're not trying anymore" toys out of the pram excuse.

Lennox Lewis

No better example.

As mentioned, despite being the best HW of the 90's early 2000's, Lewis wasn't anything like a superstar. Shunned from massive fights against the likes of Tyson/Bowe/Holyfield, and completely dismissed by the US boxing media/experts simply because he wasn't American.

To be fair what do you expect from a country who labels something as 'World Series' that doesn't actually involve countries from around the world?!

catchweight wrote:Valuev is a very underrated heavyweight as well. He was over 300 pounds. The superest of the super heavyweights. But he rarely gets a mention. He was just very unfortunate he came along when Haye and the Klitschkos were around. Otherwise he could have been the greatest.

Of course 'back in the day' there were no $hit fighters. Even the roadsweepers/taxi drivers etc that made up the majority of 'professional' fighters back then would all be world champions by today's standards.

If you say so.

Izzi wrote:

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:Always makes me laugh when people say daft stuff like 180lb HW's of the past would "spark" modern HW's.

Wlad's boring style doesn't help his popularity, but if being exciting was so important then Floyd Mayweather wouldn't make it into todays top 100. Wlad's main problem is that he isn't American. If WK was born in the US and called Bill Johnson he'd be the biggest star in the whole of sport for the last 10 years. Who was the last non-American HW susperstar?...there isn't one, because if the HW champ isn't American we all get the old "we're not trying anymore" toys out of the pram excuse.

Lennox Lewis

No better example.

As mentioned, despite being the best HW of the 90's early 2000's, Lewis wasn't anything like a superstar. Shunned from massive fights against the likes of Tyson/Bowe/Holyfield, and completely dismissed by the US boxing media/experts simply because he wasn't American.

To be fair what do you expect from a country who labels something as 'World Series' that doesn't actually involve countries from around the world?!

Exactly. Americans are brainwashed into thinking they're somehow superior to the rest of the worlds population. Anything that challenges this perception, like losing at sport, is quickly dismissed.

Izzi wrote:

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:Always makes me laugh when people say daft stuff like 180lb HW's of the past would "spark" modern HW's.

Wlad's boring style doesn't help his popularity, but if being exciting was so important then Floyd Mayweather wouldn't make it into todays top 100. Wlad's main problem is that he isn't American. If WK was born in the US and called Bill Johnson he'd be the biggest star in the whole of sport for the last 10 years. Who was the last non-American HW susperstar?...there isn't one, because if the HW champ isn't American we all get the old "we're not trying anymore" toys out of the pram excuse.

Lennox Lewis

No better example.

As mentioned, despite being the best HW of the 90's early 2000's, Lewis wasn't anything like a superstar. Shunned from massive fights against the likes of Tyson/Bowe/Holyfield, and completely dismissed by the US boxing media/experts simply because he wasn't American.

To be fair what do you expect from a country who labels something as 'World Series' that doesn't actually involve countries from around the world?!

You usually expect handouts......That's what you usually expect..

Lewis isn't a superstar............In fairness Louis was.....Ali was.......and Tyson.....

Holmes and Lewis were more " respected " than huge stars.......Tyson was the last real transcender..

catchweight wrote:If you say so.

Good comeback

In the last 100(ish) yrs, Truss, who would you saying were boxing 'superstars' from the HW division?

Add Dempsey, obviously, would Jack Johnson be in?

Rocky? Foreman?

Mayweathers cellmate wrote:

catchweight wrote:If you say so.

Good comeback

Ditto