Flower is gone

First topic message reminder :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/international/england/10609601/Andy-Flower-leaves-his-post-as-England-coach-after-disastrous-Ashes-tour-in-Australia.html

Apparently Flower has been told he is gone by Paul Downton. Announcement expected later today. Still unconfirmed at the moment though.

Edit: Being reported by most sources now. Seems fairly legit. Andy Flower will stand down later today after being given no choice by the ECB. Gutsy, gutsy call by Downton.

Have to agree with GB, what is the point of agreeing with a system that does not work for the modern game?. Test RR's have gone up since the great Aus team of the recent past have made it the way to go for the modern era. Entertainment,? the Aussies have always preached? A more positive approach is now essential for todays needs, especially with the 20/20 format around. What ever your opinions are with the three formats and how it affects each type. The fact is you have to adapt, and are England doing this quick enough and more to the point with enough foresight. Many other nations fans see the English way as negative but it has brought them success for a short period, but is this what the global market wants to see?

I hate 20/20 with a vengence, but i am not the only one voice in a desolate desert of thinking that form of the game weakens the sport, but who am i to dictate, when it has been benefical for the sport in the short term and at the benefit of the associates for a while. I also think it a stupid attempt at a quick fix and a quick fix at the the expence of diluting the sport that i love with a passion. It was to try to make quick money at the expence of the game imo, it has worked for the short term. but like most things, people will will soon get fed up with the cheapness of it. But i can also appreciate the call from the boards to modernise and make it all the richer. Otherwise what are they there for? This is their job to promote, for the future of the sport.but for the sake of £££, is it the right thing to do? And the need of a quick fix for certain countries declining gates and to share the revenue from global broadcasters around, is it best in the long term? For the Test matches they stage in certain countries Test matches bring in little gate receipts and little revenue due to, due to internet streams and a number of other reasons. and the need for fast food ideas , still no need to like it for purely for commercial reasons.

But back to flower, he tried it one way. Which proved successful for a while, but the game allways evolves and i hope he felt that too. But for me giles is of the same school of Flowers approach. and it would be much of the sameness for all 3 formats.

Time for a change?

Time for some new modern thinking to further progress the Englis mentality..

Linebreaker wrote:

msp83 wrote:Jason Gillespie has ruled himself out of the running for the England role.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/714965.html

Good.

I'd feel uneasy about having an ex-Australian player coaching England. Just doesn't seem right and it would devalue our rivalry.

100% agree.

It would be like having Franz Beckenbauer in charge of the English football team.

Saker, fair enough. A job is a job.

skyeman wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:

msp83 wrote:Jason Gillespie has ruled himself out of the running for the England role.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/714965.html

Good.

I'd feel uneasy about having an ex-Australian player coaching England. Just doesn't seem right and it would devalue our rivalry.

100% agree.

It would be like having Franz Beckenbauer in charge of the English football team.

Exactly. Or say a Harry Redknapp in charge of Germany.   

Linebreaker wrote:

skyeman wrote:

Linebreaker wrote:

msp83 wrote:Jason Gillespie has ruled himself out of the running for the England role.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/714965.html

Good.

I'd feel uneasy about having an ex-Australian player coaching England. Just doesn't seem right and it would devalue our rivalry.

100% agree.

It would be like having Franz Beckenbauer in charge of the English football team.

Exactly. Or say a Harry Redknapp in charge of Germany.   

Jeez Lb, you could have come up with someone better than Redknapp.?

Maybe Kitchener   

CaledonianCraig wrote:

skyeman wrote:A bit strange to me when a week or so back Flower was adamant that he wanted to stay on and was positive about the rebuilding of the team. Then he quits just like that after his meeting with Downton. Did Downton say KP was staying? Even with Flowers denials of saying KP or me, something not quite right.

I think you are reading too much into it. I believe Downton has met and told him the ECB were strongly in favour (or unaminous) in wanting Flower sacked and that is how things stood and offered Flower the chance to walk first before he was sacked and this is what happened.

As much as i have disliked some of Jonathan Agnews reports in the recent past, check out his latest report. In a more subtle way than me, it would appear he says the same thing as me.

England have little hope in attracting either a Gary Kirsten or Stephen Fleming. 

Kirsten has stated that he wants to spend 70% of his time with his young family. And he recently signed a 3 year deal with the Delhi Daredevils, as their head coach. 

Stephen Fleming, has already rejected New Zealand twice, and he's also got a young family. 

Both Kirsten and Fleming are earning more in the IPL, in 6-8 weeks, is more than they'd get coaching England all year round.

--.if it's not an Englishman then as we discussed before the only other nationality that ECB can afford and work with  is a Zimbabwean...who are available in a wide variety...

--because as Gerry points out...most high profile coaches are making an annual ECB salary equivalent from IPL
other coaching materials are working as assistant coaches in IPL

--so first Eng won't find it easy to pay significantly more.......because they would want to end the IPL career of their coach.....and no one's gonna give up 6 weeks of a salaray unless the allyear round salary for an English job is 2.5 times more.

--secondly English and the ECB temperamentally prefer someone who is deferential to "The Empire & Queen& Crown "...willing to cut his veins to show loyalty flowing........so really the choices are narrowed down to a Zimbabwean....troubled by Mugabe, supported by and hence grateful to England.

--Poor Andy inspite of all his skills....because of his anti-IPL tirades...he has worked himself out of the possibility of landing a lucrative IPL job....and will be working for pea-nuts as a some consultant.
In corporate world...once you are fired from the top job......no amount of sugar-coated titles hide the reality of the "firing"

--Life would be a lot easier for all if ECB was to embrace uninhibitedly and allow those under it's jurisdiction to participate in  cricket't greatest carnival "The IPL" and refrain from playing much cricket during that period.

More analysis on Flower......and pretty good this too.
extracts from David Hopps write on CI

Flower is being summarized in two parts...for giving England it's huge success and then being responsible for the destruction of English cricket. Pretty amazing decline that in a matter of few months


Flower Power and the demise of the machines
Criticisms of an over-reliance on data will sting Andy Flower, who must discover the more human side of analysis if he is to successfully develop the leadership potential of England's next generation
David Hopps
February 1, 2014
Comments: 23 | Login via | Text size: A | A

Jonny Bairstow takes instruction from Andy Flower, Alice Springs, November 28, 2013
Andy Flower could be an intimidating figure for England's new generation ©
Teams: England
It was in the news this week that an English neuroscientist and computer boffin had become a multi-millionaire after selling his company, Deep Mind, to Google. Demis Hassabis has been researching how to make computers behave like humans. The cruellest perception of Andy Flower as he reached the end of his reign as England's director of cricket was that he was approaching the problem the other way round.

The charge, although essentially unfair, is not as glib as it sounds. Michael Vaughan, an Ashes-winning captain, feels he has seen enough on England's Ashes tour to level it, suggesting that England's players were too weighed down by instructions to be able to play instinctive, proactive cricket, even wondering whether they had become "scared" of Flower. He also called them "robotic". In his view, it seems, this was the age of the machines.

The dedication and professionalism he had shown as a player was just as evident as a coach. When results turned against him, he worked ever harder. There was a lot of talk about how exhausted and joyless his team became. He probably became quite exhausted and joyless himself. But he would not relent. Even at the end, when he was accused of being too intense, his response was to suggest that he had not been intense enough.

As he considers whether he can have a fulfilling future within the ECB - he is right to ponder it because he is too driven to spend the rest of his working life as an apparatchik in an insubstantial role - the allegation that he became so obsessed with the minutiae of coaching that he lost the human touch will rankle with him.

For all that, history may well reflect that the big theme of Flower's reign was the growing tension between the strict coaching disciplines he adhered to and the need for free expression. Flower remains adamant that England's large support staff - the biggest in cricket history - was designed to enhance individual performance, not stifle it, but the experiment remains unproven.

One of the great advocates of the need in competitive sport for daily disciplines and marginal gains has been Dave Brailsford, performance director of the British cycling team. Anybody who watched Great Britain's rush of gold medals at the 2012 Olympics was liable to be converted to the philosophy. Flower was a disciple. He did little without purpose. If you wished him "good morning" you might imagine that he was already analysing how good a morning it was, and what elements would have to be introduced for it to remain so.
But cricket is a more complex sport than cycling, with more imponderables, and the tension between a systematic approach and the somewhat conflicting need for freedom was thrown into even sharper focus the moment Australia appointed Darren Lehmann as coach. Lehmann's Australia responded to England's ordered, attritional game by encouraging attacking, aggressive cricket at every turn, keeping Australian spirits high with a basic philosophy of mateship, encouraging the entire nation to be brash in their desire to unsettle the tourists, and finding every opportunity to take England out of their comfort zone.

his achieved, there was a striking frailty about the way Flower's England, a team that had delivered a golden era, fell apart so quickly in Australia. When the pressure was on, and the data was turning redder by the week, their ability to think on their feet seemed to be lacking.

Flower will no doubt reflect that accepted strengths in victory were routinely perceived as weaknesses during the defeats that followed. Praise of England's professional planning and search for the "extra one percent-ers" turned into criticism that an ability to think for themselves had become suffocated under a pile of data. He found such a charge illogical.

His regime has been praised as the most intellectually stimulating environment English cricket has ever known and it must have been educational to be involved in many of those discussions. But in the Australia dressing room, Lehmann was not overly concerned with intellectualism and, not for the first time, there was no denying the impact of his methods.

Lehmann refreshed Australia, whereas Flower had been slow to recognise the level to which England needed to be refreshed. While his knowledge of the set-up was detailed, while his appetite for self-improvement at coaching seminars and from coaching books was admirable, he was the second successive England coach of Southern African stock - Duncan Fletcher being the first - to be too divorced from the next generation of players seeking to make their way in the county game.

Flower's envisaged future role is to develop leadership skills in the next crop of England cricketers. Strauss had such skills in abundance and they served England well. As a partnership of equals, Flower's demanding nature and Strauss' softer emphasis on individual responsibility was ideal. When Cook succeeded Strauss, Flower's role naturally became more dominant. He was more intimidating than he realised. His determination to mould Cook, a cricketer of high integrity, into a great leader remained unfulfilled.

It would be no surprise if both Flower's recognition of Cook's qualities as a man, but also his limitations as a leader, is behind his hankering to improve such qualities in young English professionals largely cossetted from the outside world. But if Flower is to take up his role at the ECB as a leadership mentor for young English professionals, it is to be hoped that he opts not to do this purely in the sterile world of a Loughborough meeting room but also out on the cricket circuit, interacting with them in real situations.

Google, after all, want their data to feel more human. Flower could learn a little from their new "cybernetic friend".

KP_fan wrote:More analysis on Flower......and pretty good this too.
extracts from David Hopps write on CI

... Flower's envisaged future role is to develop leadership skills in the next crop of England cricketers. Strauss had such skills in abundance and they served England well. As a partnership of equals, Flower's demanding nature and Strauss' softer emphasis on individual responsibility was ideal. When Cook succeeded Strauss, Flower's role naturally became more dominant. He was more intimidating than he realised. His determination to mould Cook, a cricketer of high integrity, into a great leader remained unfulfilled.

It would be no surprise if both Flower's recognition of Cook's qualities as a man, but also his limitations as a leader, is behind his hankering to improve such qualities in young English professionals largely cossetted from the outside world. But if Flower is to take up his role at the ECB as a leadership mentor for young English professionals, it is to be hoped that he opts not to do this purely in the sterile world of a Loughborough meeting room but also out on the cricket circuit, interacting with them in real situations.

... [/i]

As I posted yesterday - whilst I can understand the reasoning for wanting to keep Flower on board, getting the balance right between the old and the new may not be straightforward.

^it is a corporate way of softening the blow of "firing"...that many compnaies I have known use

to offer something that sounds fuzzy, and face saving especially when the guy being fired has delivered meaningful value in the past...to soften the blow..and help with his esteem in the eyes of the world.

but that "fuzzy something" is really notional that neitehr he will take nor the employer intends to execute seriously...it will disappear into oblivion as everyone moves on

KP_fan wrote:^it is a corporate way of softening the blow of "firing"...that many compnaies I have known use

to offer something that sounds fuzzy, and face saving especially when the guy being fired has delivered meaningful value in the past...to soften the blow..and help with his esteem in the eyes of the world.

but that "fuzzy something" is really notional that neitehr he will take nor the employer intends to execute seriously...it will disappear into oblivion as everyone moves on

That doesn't square with Hopps' article (and your praising of it).

Is it too late for an england deflowered by australia joke?

guildfordbat wrote:

KP_fan wrote:^it is a corporate way of softening the blow of "firing"...that many compnaies I have known use

to offer something that sounds fuzzy, and face saving especially when the guy being fired has delivered meaningful value in the past...to soften the blow..and help with his esteem in the eyes of the world.

but that "fuzzy something" is really notional that neitehr he will take nor the employer intends to execute seriously...it will disappear into oblivion as everyone moves on

That doesn't square with Hopps' article (and your praising of it).

Hopps has got many things right.....
this part...i do not think he figured

ShahenshahG wrote:Is it too late for an england deflowered by australia joke?

Flower is not a joke but a big case study.

One important point that Hopps makes....a very important one actually..

That the best of England came when Strauss as an equal was balancing the expression of team members on one side.....with Flower's strategy and analyis.

and as Hopps notes.......with Cook's arrival Flower became the dominating controller...that balance was lost.
One super-series in  India notwithstanding on the momentum of the Strauss era and full of still Adernalin filled Cook's super innings coupled with perfect pitches for Monty......

Generally that balance of expression vs discipline was lost....with Cook constantly being reminded by Flower ( I believe unintentionally) that he wasn't a "worthy enough" leader...which Flower echoed ( again unintentionally I believe) until the end.
And to the controlling regime minus the balance they lost Trott, Swann and Cook at least for now.

Tom Moody, who had declined the ECB interest in 2009 is not ruling himself out this time, though he does have IPL commitments as well as a new role that he will take up with the CPL to consider.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/westindies/content/current/story/715177.html

What about Charles Colville as the head coach? He only has a Sky Sports contract!

Guru Gary is not interested in the England job.
http://www.espncricinfo.com/england/content/current/story/715373.html

But Moody is apparently.

Id much rather have him than Giles.

Mick Newell would be my choice to take over.

Giles may be tarnished by his association with England's disastrous Ashes tour. He helped select the Test squad and oversaw the woeful showings in the one-day and Twenty20 series. If the ECB is looking for a fresh approach, then Giles is not the man.

My thoughts exactly. Too negative. We need a new style of play.

Vaughan's XI to face Sri Lanka would be this

Cook, Robson, Bell, Root, Morgan, Stokes, Buttler, Borthwick, Broad, Jordan, Anderson.

One no Ballance is interesting from a Yorkshire lad. Two not sure I fancy Borthwick against the sub continent touring parties of this upcoming summer

Olly wrote:Vaughan's XI to face Sri Lanka would be this

Cook, Robson, Bell, Root, Morgan, Stokes, Buttler, Borthwick, Broad, Jordan, Anderson.

One no Ballance is interesting from a Yorkshire lad. Two not sure I fancy Borthwick against the sub continent touring parties of this upcoming summer

Vaughan has always liked Morgan, but that Pakistan tour still gives me nightmares. He can play spin in ODI's but Tests he comes unstuck. Borthwick can bat but his spin bowling may be murdered by the Lankans.

Ballance for Morgan imo.

It's fun and fine to speculate now what the England team should be for the first Test of the summer. However, in reality and particularly with that first Test not being until mid June, we really have to see which players hit the ground running in the opening two months of the County Championship season. Several important auditions will be held then ....

guildfordbat wrote:It's fun and fine to speculate now what the England team should be for the first Test of the summer. However, in reality and particularly with that first Test not being until mid June, we really have to see which players hit the ground running in the opening two months of the County Championship season. Several important auditions will be held then ....

Is there any Lions games before that first test Guildford?

Would imagine they'll be used to gauge potential candidates especially if they face Sri Lanka

guildfordbat wrote:It's fun and fine to speculate now what the England team should be for the first Test of the summer. However, in reality and particularly with that first Test not being until mid June, we really have to see which players hit the ground running in the opening two months of the County Championship season. Several important auditions will be held then ....

I agree really...you would think Vaughn should know better  

Must listen to tonights Vaughn and Tuffers show later. Vaughn being pro KP and Tuffers not so. Could be heated.

skyeman wrote:Must listen to tonights Vaughn and Tuffers show later. Vaughn being pro KP and Tuffers not so. Could be heated.

Was a very very good listen Skyeman. Proper debate and good analysis.

Olly wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:It's fun and fine to speculate now what the England team should be for the first Test of the summer. However, in reality and particularly with that first Test not being until mid June, we really have to see which players hit the ground running in the opening two months of the County Championship season. Several important auditions will be held then ....

Is there any Lions games before that first test Guildford?

Would imagine they'll be used to gauge potential candidates especially if they face Sri Lanka

I don't know the summer schedule, JD. Believe the first unofficial Lions Test against Sri Lanka starts in about a week.

Olly wrote:

skyeman wrote:Must listen to tonights Vaughn and Tuffers show later. Vaughn being pro KP and Tuffers not so. Could be heated.

Was a very very good listen Skyeman. Proper debate and good analysis.

Great, thanks Olly. will do so now.

Olly wrote:Vaughan's XI to face Sri Lanka would be this

Cook, Robson, Bell, Root, Morgan, Stokes, Buttler, Borthwick, Broad, Jordan, Anderson.

One no Ballance is interesting from a Yorkshire lad. Two not sure I fancy Borthwick against the sub continent touring parties of this upcoming summer

If Giles gets the head coach gig it'll probably be : Cook(c), Chopra. Bell, Root, Ballance, Clarke, Ambrose(wk),Stokes, Woakes, Tredwell, Dernbach