Why did Gatland choose Priestland?

First topic message reminder :

It may have something to do with Priestland being better suited to help Wales beat Ireland. Ireland will by far be Wales' toughest opposition and last year Biggar had a bit of a disastrous 40 mins.

Priestland was exceptional and instrumental in Wales' wins over Ireland in 2011 RWC and 2012. Hook was 10 when Wales won in the 2011 6N.

Flat passing and bringing out the best in Roberts is also a big factor. That along with Priestland's familiarity and experience with JD2, Scott Williams and Roberts.

Excellent choice IMO and the Italy game is the perfect opportunity to build his confidence prior to Dublin.

You really annoyed?

bedfordwelsh wrote:I do think Biggars style would have suited this game better especially given the forecast but Gats thinks Priestland offers more and its his decision.

As for Hook I have made my feelings on him clear over past few years and despite what form he is or isn't showing at Perp he's still not their 1st choice no10.

Do you know why?

Do you know who is?

Do you know what nationality and age the player who has been given the ten shirt is?

It is more oaf job share than a hierarchy, the respected international with his French understudy developing full of potential.

Hook has played four positions at international level, he is a huge attribute to any team because of that.

Hes Tommy or Tomos Allan played U20s for Scotland qualifies for Italy (not France as you suggested) through his mother and played No10 on Saturday against us but then even anyone who doesn't follow rugby could find that out so don't see your point Maes.

I agree and have said that Hook is good to the squad in that he covers numerous positions but even after 70+ caps isn't 1st choice in any of them.

He has played more games at XV than at 10 for Perp this season which is why again I question when I see posts suggesting Hook at 10 and that he should be given his chance, hes had 70 odd of them.

bedfordwelsh wrote:Hes Tommy or Tomos Allan played U20s for Scotland qualifies for Italy (not France as you suggested) through his mother and played No10 on Saturday against us but then even anyone who doesn't follow rugby could find that out so don't see your point Maes.

I agree and have said that Hook is good to the squad in that he covers numerous positions but even after 70+ caps isn't 1st choice in any of them.

He has played more games at XV than at 10 for Perp this season which is why again I question when I see posts suggesting Hook at 10 and that he should be given his chance, hes had 70 odd of them.

Its much worse that that Bedford he is actually 3rd choice and soon to be 4th choice 10 with a very good youth player coming through next season. Perpignan are currently in 11th place of 14 teams having won only 7 out of 17 games. Hook rarely plays in the 10 slot now, and is not considered for 10, 12 or 13 slots, with the usual 2-3 players ahead of him in each of those positions.

Camilla Lopez
Is a well thought of flyhalf who was on the verge of great things with the France full team but injury at the moment has put paid to that, he also had a end of season move tied up to go to Clermont Av from Bordeaux but Perpignan were so desperate to obtain the services of a consistently good 10 that they offered him silly money just to take over Hooks role as 1st choice flyhalf for the 2013/14 season.

Tommaso (Tommy) Allan
Has played for our U18, U19, and U20 sides and his uncle played about 10 times for Scotland, his father is Scottish but played in Italy and although we have pretty gash flyhalfs the SRU have bolloxed up playing him at A or full International level preferring Weir and Heathcote which left the Italians playing him last season at 10, which in my honest opinion will come to bite us on our derrieres. He has played all over the place including Wasps Academy, Western Province and is a good FB and centre also... and now having just turned 20 with only about 7 Perpignan games under his belt he is second choice to Lopez at Perpignan.

Fly-Halfs
Camille Lopez Fly-half France
Tommy Allan Fly-half Italy
James Hook Fly-half Wales

Hook is really well thought of by the supporters, who realise he gives 100% to everything he does and was made clubman of the 2012/13 season, and has captained the Perpignan side this season. He is now regarded as first choice FB and has just signed a contract extension. It is widely accepted he will not be a utility player at Perpignan

bedfordwelsh wrote:I do think Biggars style would have suited this game better especially given the forecast but Gats thinks Priestland offers more and its his decision.

As for Hook I have made my feelings on him clear over past few years and despite what form he is or isn't showing at Perp he's still not their 1st choice no10.

I'm not against Priest playing but Biggar could well be more suited for a tight game in the wet.

Saying that, maybe Gatland reckons that Priest will get a few free passes in Ireland.....   

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/rhys-priestland-reveals-brutal-on-field-6677741

Why did Gatland choose Priestland?

To get to the other side.

flyhalffactory wrote:

The Saint wrote:It was a lucky bounce. RP made too many errors, errors your No.10s are not expected to make. He's in the most important position on the pitch and was never the form choice going into this tournament. He needs to seriously up his game, and stop with the silly kicks all the time (not the first occassion where has he kicked the ball away when the clock is on red).

The grubber is used for just for that reason! i.e. to speculatively punt a low trajectory putting pressure on the defender to pick it up before the attacker gets to him, and RP had the wherewithal to realise that the Italian winger was cold and Cuthbert is just the predatory animal to take advantage, the weight and pace of the kick was perfect to achieve the result. That's perfect awareness of the potential attacking opportunity, but you blindly see it just as a lucky bounce.

Give me examples of his errors!

I looked at the match in total yesterday and I cannae see where you get this tosh from Saint, at the most I can see one error.

His performance was well balanced 16 kicks, 29 passes 8 runs, he beat defenders on 4 occasions that twice as much as any other welsh player, his weakness (defence) was missing having made 4 tackles and missing none, that's better than any other back apart from Roberts, he made two clean breaks one which almost resulted in a try. He was key and the pivotal player in both tries, speeding up the Phillips laboured pass to create the midfield hole for Williams to create the roundhouse pass.

And you bang on about errors strewth..... where are they?

Christ, never seen someone put so much gloss on a lucky bounce. If you want an example of a perfect grubber kick then you need to take a look at the kicks O'Gara put in throughout his club career.

It always confuses me how you're so obsessed with stats? If you were as smart as you think you are then you wouldn't rely on them. His errors were a bad pass, poor kicks/charged down kicks, losing the ball in contact and throwing the ball to an Italian player (after making a good break). That's what I seen with my own eyes, not what Opta tells me. Those are errors a 10 can not make, it's one of the most important position on the field. The 2nd try looked like good work from Williams and Roberts to me. Don't see how anyone can give the glory to RP, unless you're his biggest fan.

It appears that you're the only one not see these errors. I find your infatuation with RP a bit disturbing if I'm honest. You should relax and not be so condescending when someone points out the blatantly obvious in the future.

flyhalffactory wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:FHF - Rhys did make a few mistakes. He lost the ball on the ground that lead to the first Italian try for example. However I think that these mistakes have been picked up because people were looking for him to make mistakes, the same as I always pay extra attention when Cuthbert slips off a tackle, or fails to attempt it, than I would if say George, Roberts, or Scott did.

I agree he made a few mistakes but rerun that stage of play a few seconds before and you will see RP sweeping the pass out to Williams who had men outside him but instead run back into the breakdown area, thus closing the gap and leaving RP with no option but to run at the centre and flanker.... yes it was mistake that the ball popped out but to say that was the catalyst for the Italian try is ludicrous, there was so many welsh players out of position and Halfpenny was so far up the field he couldn't even make it back to the defensive line and it was left to Faletau to chase the centre

 If you agree he made a few mistakes then why post such rubbish throughout this thread after I claimed he made mistakes? Oddball.

Saint, you are getting a reputation for creating an argument in an empty bar, you seem to pick a fight with nearly everyone on here.

Your obsession with making comments about RP every international game he plays is a problem, (I have only come up with the facts and figures in reply to your accusation of his "many many errors).

The kick in your mind is "lucky" but in everybody else's view it is a pretty damn good weighted grubber for Cuthbert a noted finisher in the early minutes testing a winger who was on his first game for his country.... that's called being "aware". For your education a grubber kick is speculative, its very nature is to hopefully bounce the way of the offensive player, in this instance it was perfect as the bounce deceived the defender.

The conditions were extremely gusty and windy, he was instructed to keep the ball low and as a result the kicks found the opponents, very much like Halfpenny kicks found the opponents as well, "hello these are not errors"

The ball that came out of his hands was as a direct result of Scott Williams coming back into the contact area, even though Priestland had given him a perfectly weighted pass and there was three players outside of him (Roberts, North and Cuthbert) and only four Italians covering them.... the result was RP had little option to attempt to go through the centre and flanker, he almost made it but was the double cover tackle of the centre and the ball bouncing against the forwards thigh that resulted in it spilling from his hand. Ok that was an error and the catalyst for the start of Italian try.

The second try is plainly obvious to others on here, a slow pass from Phillips was speeded up by RP and the gap can clearly be see for Williams to have that extra second to launch Roberts..... if you cannae see what happened you need to keep off the sauce while watching matches on 6Ns weekends.

Sorry but as its been noted by a few on here, you are picking up on his very few true errors and making up the rest as your perception of errors, however you seem to ignore other players who made more and the errors were fundamentally "worse".... re: Halfpennys poor positional play for the first try and his headless chicken pass for the second (perhaps this is the mis-pass you are blaming RP for), or Tipuric/Lydiate sluggish around the breakdown and not winning one against the head.

You are kinda pretty transparent Saint

FHF, that's a tired accusation, and rich coming from you seeing as you have an issue with people who don't agree with you on RP.

You'll also find I've always refrained to comment on RP during international games, either that or I've suggested that other posters calm down when criticising him. I'm an advocator of his style of play like you, except I don't have blinkers that prevent me from seeing that it isn't paying off. He's been erratic all season and I would have preferred if someone who is more calm like Biggar was in the hot seat. I'm not his biggest fan but he should be there ahead of RP, and most definitely ahead of Hook. Still not sure why you posted stats, as they don't really prove anything you've said or disprove anything I've said. That's why knowledgeable people tend to avoid bringing in the stats.

No doubt it was a well weighted kick, just that it was pure luck that the Italian player missed the ball when trying to gather it.

The conditions were anything but that with the roof closed...

You know a perfectly weighted pass is expected from a fly-half. Yes you're right, the error was the catalyst for the Italian try, a glaring error and one that everyone has alluded to. Only now do you see the truth.

It's kind of funny how you keep going on about this pass, guess we should commend RP for not messing it up though right? As I've already said, without blinkers on, it was good work from Williams and Roberts. I suggest it is you that needs to stay off the sauce.

No what you say there hasn't been noted by anyone. The only person who has a problem with people giving a fair assessment (those on here that is) is you. I haven't made up anything, I've written it how I seen it. The proof is the game if you care to go back and watch it (doubt it'll work for you 2nd time around though). Halfpenny was on the attack before RP lost the ball and allowed Italy to counter, so how can his positional play for the first try be poor if he is running back trying to cover? You couldn't be more wrong with that one. Granted he didn't have a good game, but he was certainly the form full back going into the game and has never made an error that has cost Wales a match in the past. No, Halfpenny was generally at fault for throwing an interception pass, you must be making that up as I genuinely have no idea what you're on about.

You have an issue with me and those who seem to give an honest assessment of RP. Not only that but I've pulled up posts where you have contradicted yourself. This leads me to assume that this is an infatuation with RP. I'm not really in the mood to read your next post that just repeats what you've already wrote. WE GET IT, you don't agree with us on RP. Move on.

Sorry Saint you are way off the mark

Its not "us", so don't attempt to consolidate yourself with the crowd because there are none. Most of the forum posters who have mentioned him have stated he had an ok game, and the stats put up a fair defence of his contribution compared to most of his colleagues.

RP has had a consistent not an erratic season if you listen to the Scarlets fans, and Biggar has had a really good season in my opinion and both playing with pretty dire teams this season. He has looked much stronger mentally and physically and that showed in his tackles last weekend.  

I haven't an issue with the truth as I haven't an issue with an honest opinion I have great dialogue with my Scottish posters, as well as the Welsh, Irish and.... well we won't talk about the English (only joking guys), but don't confuse an honest opinion and setting up a case built on sand.

I watched the match with a group of guys on the box, and then watched a re-run of it after your comments, I am yet to see all these errors

Not one commentator mentioned that RP's error was the cause of the Welsh try, and if you look at the passage of play again you will see that Scott Williams instead of spreading the ball wide, came back into the tight play and hence two passes later RP was stuck in the hole with no option but to attempt to break through two players who double tackled him....

Just to end this debacle
Halfpenny, Williams, Phillips and AWJ got turned over as much as Priestland, and
North got turned over twice as much as him.

Cuthbert, Williams, North, and Faletau all missed tackles but Priestland didn't miss one.

As much as you attempt to muddy the waters RP had an ok game, didn't make as many errors as most of his colleagues and was one of the few Welsh players with some modicum of attacking threat last weekend.

flyhalf, as far as I can see people have stated, like I have, that he made a fair few errors and you seem to be taking issue with it. Unless I'm completely blind. Stats are stats. They do not account for, or excuse his errors. According to another poster they are average stats for a 10 anyway.

I don't listen to Scarlets fans, I find them too biased, though not as biased as Ospreys fans they will be glad to hear. Erratic, means good form in one game, bad form in the next, or a bit of both in a single game. That's inconsistent pal, it's certainly not consistent. Biggar has been the consistent player from what I've seen, him and AWJ have been carrying a very poor team on their shoulders for Christ's sake, give the man some credit.

You must have an issue with the truth though, as it took multiple posters pointing out RP's glaring errors before you listened. If you have an opinion that's fine, but you should be so condescending to others who have a different view.

Okay well this just proves my point about having blinkers on.

Oh right, so if Jiffy of all people didn't say it then it must be true. Jiffy is voice of reason after all, especially for Scotland rugby fans! Nice of you to bring up his error again even though I fail to see your point.

All players you list are:
A. On form/were on form going into this match.
B. Have not cost Wales a match.

Stats stats..... How many tackles did RP attempt? There is one obvious flaw without me even having to look it up!
It was an average team performance on the whole. For me RP proved, as I have been alluding to for weeks, that he should not have been picked ahead of someone playing better. Phillips wasn't my choice either, neither he or Webb helped their case. For me the best No.9 in Wales isn't even in the squad.

RP had an average game like the rest. I don't think I've said otherwise anywhere?

Stats stats..... How many tackles did RP attempt?

4 tackles made ZERO missed

FB Halfpenny 2/0
W Cuthbert 2/1
C MS Williams 5/2
C Roberts 9/0
W North 1/1
FH Priestland 4/0
SH Phillips 1/0

So apart from Roberts he made the best tackle performance. Next question?

So what is the obvious flaw?

Anyway like most of the other posters on here I have had enough of your smelly stuff

So that's some nice stats, something you were actually able to back up. I pointed out how stats are able to provide flaws fhf. Although I'm still unsure as to how this disproves anything I've written?

Yes I know you've had enough of an opinion that doesn't go down on RP. In that case I suggest you stay clear of this forum .

Jeeze we need to get the mods to do something about you, every topic you are on you seem to create an argument.
24....more like 14

Another snoozefest of a comment. I would also suggest the mods do something about you constantly putting in snide comments at those who disagree with you. I've never come across someone who's blood boils over a simple disagreement.

Snide comments please inform me when I made snide comments

I think the word "oddball" came in from someone.

Lets get the mods involved shall we and they can pour over the topic messages and see who has been antagonistic

Telling me that I'm "pretty transparent" and I "should lay off the sauce" is pretty snide, all because I disagreed with you. Plus I'm only posting in your posting style because you dislike it like that. I'm here to talk about the rugby and I know not everyone will agree on things, I suggest you realise that instead of trying to childishly get the last word in all the time. And yes I did find it quite odd of you to pull me up for claiming RP made a few errors only for you to agree that he made a few errors a couple posts later. Very contradictory and well odd IMO.

Dont muddy the waters.... you said anything but a few errors..... read your message. I only replied to your original over the top comments

Anyway I have had enough of your opinions without facts.

So this is me signing off

So hypocritical. I've not got a problem with you disagreeing, but just the one post is enough. I don't need somebody constantly trying to ram their opinion down my eye sockets whilst peeing all over my opinion. My opinion is based on the game (as is most other people's) so I'm not sure how much more factual I can get? You've signed off a few times apparently, I hope this is your last.

 &   

ME-109 wrote: &   

More entertaining than the Italy game, at least.

Particularly liked the bit about tactical kicking in the windy conditions. Comedy gold.

Biggar would be more reliable in a wet and windy Dublin, no ?

To answer the OPs question the reason Priestland is picked basically revolves around Jamie Roberts. Priestland takes the ball to the line more often and plays flatter making any Jamie Roberts crash ball moves more effective. Simple as that really and that was fairly evident in the Italy game and the same tactic will be on show v Ireland.

I expect Wales to use Roberts as a battering ram and they will also use the Cutbert off his wing joing the line move with use of dummy runners.

England beat Ireland last time in less orrible conditions with a sensible tactical kicking game.

Do we have the ball handling skills to play our normal game in the wet ?

munkian wrote:England beat Ireland last time in less orrible conditions with a sensible tactical kicking game.

Do we have the ball handling skills to play our normal game in the wet ?  

That was a fairly different team. Perhaps not in the personnel but in the way they played and were coached. I think ireland would much prefer a dry day v Wales though. Wet conditions suit bigger players IMO.

I expect Ireland to kick a lot - half penny is superlative under the high ball but North and Cuthbert aren't the best. We've kicked a lot under Schmidt and with Trimble and Kearney on the wings I think we'll see a lot of kick chases.

rodders wrote:I expect Ireland to kick a lot - half penny is superlative under the high ball but North and Cuthbert aren't the best. We've kicked a lot under Schmidt and with Trimble and Kearney on the wings I think we'll see a lot of kick chases.

I would say North and Toby are very steady under the high ball

rodders wrote:I expect Ireland to kick a lot - half penny is superlative under the high ball but North and Cuthbert aren't the best. We've kicked a lot under Schmidt and with Trimble and Kearney on the wings I think we'll see a lot of kick chases.

I agree with you Rodders, both Trimble and Kearney who are fairly direct aggressive players will be right on top of Cuthbert who started off as a "Welsh Visser" great going forward but a revolving door in defence (although he has improved helluva lot the last twelve months) and North who had a relatively poor defensive display last week.

I think both Sexton and Rob Kearney will be punting the ball over the welsh wingers heads and making them turn quite a few times on Saturday.

You saw last week Roberts and Williams mixing it up (playing left-right as well as inside-outside) that's what Priestland offers the welsh coaches that innate ability to be aware of what's happening around him, creating varying opportunities and not just the flat pass to Roberts which didn't really happen that often against the Italians, you noticed Williams coming into the inside centre angle with Roberts delaying his run off the 13 channel.

I think the key men in this match will be O'Mahony and Murray who will be targeting Priestland and not allowing any time on the ball

just returned after my last comment on here, that got fhf going. dear oh lord !!!!!
my whole point is the mistakes ,errors , poor play, call it what you like from rp, had more of an impact than anything else he did in the game.including keeping Italy in the game !!!!!!

and as for stats, any player in a rugby match could have brilliant sats for everything, but gift possession and tries which give the game to the opposition.

still loyal to hook then maes . Biggar has not been anywhere near poor, off form, had a bad game, this season. you just don't rate him, be honest, because he edged out hooky at the os.   aw

gavstar wrote:just returned after my last comment on here, that got fhf going. dear oh lord !!!!!
my whole point is the mistakes ,errors , poor play, call it what you like from rp, had more of an impact than anything else he did in the game.including keeping Italy in the game !!!!!!

and as for stats, any player in a rugby match could have brilliant sats for everything, but gift possession and  tries which give the game to the opposition.

still loyal to hook then maes .  Biggar has not been anywhere near poor, off form, had a bad game,  this season. you just don't rate him, be honest, because he edged out hooky at the os.    aw

Gav

I agree with you generally on many things including the fact that Biggar has had a great 12-15 months, and must be wondering what he has to do to get a starting berth or at least a place on the bench.

But I have stated facts and stats in response to your generalisation of Priestlands performance.... nothing overboard in that fella.

I had yet another quick gander at the welsh game comparing RPs game (and all these errors) to certain other key players performance. Also had a look at the player rating on various media as well...... strange but RPs rating kinda reflects the general opinion and his stats.

So tell me apart from the lost ball when he was double tackled after Williams turned back into the tight and the ball was passed to him with not a lot of options but attempt to break the defensive line, where is this massive amount of errors compared to say Halfpenny (whose kicking seemed to give possession away, or his poor positional play in Italys first try, or his fantastic pass to Italy for the second try) or perhaps Adam Jones success in the scrum or North's superb defensive performance or Tipuric's pilfering performance around the breakdown.

Or maybe you are suggesting these guys should be should be dropped as well.....

All gentle wit aside, it's no big secret why Priestland keeps getting the nod.

Howley and Gatland have spoken about this in public. The WRU writer in residence, Owen Sheers refers to it in his book 'Calon' and Priestland himself owned up to it after the time he hoofed a ball down the pitch when a 4 man overlap was calling for a pass and he had a meltdown.

You obey team instructions in this squad or you're dropped. Priestland does as he's told, regardless of consequences, and thus the management repay him by picking him regardless of form.

Playing by numbers has brought 6N success, even though it means we fall short of ever troubling SH teams. We'll see how Ireland deal with it soon enough.

Cas

Sigh   ....are you seriously suggesting that Hook or Biggar are mavericks who totally disregard the coaches instructions because they are the "Alex Higgins or Kevin Pietersen" of rugby union

flyhalffactory wrote:Cas

Sigh   ....are you seriously suggesting that Hook or Biggar are mavericks who totally disregard the coaches instructions because they are the "Alex Higgins or Kevin Pietersen" of rugby union

Fly bro, were you seriously suggesting that Priestland kicked 'low' because of the windy conditions in the stadium against Italy???

Of course not, it's just that he can't kick properly.

I don't need to justify the obvious, for once. The WRU authorised book 'Calon' details it.

Priestland does as he's told, even if it means throwing away overlaps because they occur the wrong side of halfway.

Thus he gets the nod.

Casartelli wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:Cas

Sigh   ....are you seriously suggesting that Hook or Biggar are mavericks who totally disregard the coaches instructions because they are the "Alex Higgins or Kevin Pietersen" of rugby union

Fly bro, were you seriously suggesting that Priestland kicked 'low' because of the windy conditions in the stadium against Italy???

Of course not, it's just that he can't kick properly.

I don't need to justify the obvious, for once. The WRU authorised book 'Calon' details it.

Priestland does as he's told, even if it means throwing away overlaps because they occur the wrong side of halfway.

Thus he gets the nod.

I am seriously suggesting he was told to kick lower because when the roof is closed (it due to inclement conditions) produces a different flight with the lighter ball which was made more difficult with the forecasted gusty conditions, as Halfpenny who also kicked much lower than normal alluded to "the unusually extremely gusty conditions forecasted meant that kicking would be lower"

I am not sure if you have ever been to the MS but its not an airtight bowl when the roof is closed, after a certain height the ball deviates and the wind outside will give you a false sense of conditions, thus you punt it lower than normal.......... jeeze!

Read the press rankings throughout the uk or abroad and you will see that his kicking was generally well rec'd and he did no worse that Halfpenny.

I haven't read Calon but if you can provide some extract to concrete your statement, because sure as hell Gatland and Howley never stated that RP was at fault for that kick, but they did state that their forwards were put under undue pressure so the kick was an aware and probably best option, what happened after the kick.... no follow up and terrible tackling was the talking point I seem to remember.

Priestland does as the he is told as will all professional players unfortunately some players cannot or do not have the ability to carry the game-plan through. Priestland remit under Gatland is to be aware of the potential opportunities and construct a pivotal risk based offensive game, applying pressure and thus creating opportunities, Biggar if we are honest can play that game to an extent and is much better in a tight game than many give him credit, James Hook cannot unfortunately as now can be seen down in the South of France.

Fly Hook has been overlooked because he does not always stick to the Gatplan.

Honestly thats true and I can't reveal my source

Allty wrote:
Fly    Hook has been overlooked because he does not always stick to the Gatplan.

Honestly thats true and I can't reveal my source

Was your source Mr Cas "WRU insider and Hookys Agent"

The ironic thing is Hook has never been overlooked he still is on the bench, even though Biggar has played 10, 15 and I do believe he has played 30 mins at centre for the Os this season

No Fly but certainly an insider.

By overlooked I mean as a regular starter

Allty wrote:No  Fly but certainly an insider.

By overlooked I mean as a regular starter

Regular starter at what position?

10 He is 3rd soon to be 4th choice for Perpignan and is currently playing FB. Would he play 10 ahead of Biggar/Priestland/Patchell/Tovey if he came back to Wales now?
13 Davies / Scott Williams
15 Halfpenny / Liam Williams / Byrne

I think it is more to do with unable to consistently implement the Gatland game plan rather than not willing to follow orders.

But understand where you are coming from...